lurking 1: health and wealth
One of the best things about blogging is lurking round other people’s blogs to get a good sense of what’s going on in nutty corners of the world. I follow a wide variety of blogs, including a mixed bag of Christian blogs. According to my advanced intellectual classification system, some of them are nasty and stupid, some of them are well-meaning and stupid, and some of them are well-meaning and intellectually sound (to a degree). As with all other blogs, if they state something foul, I comment, if they say something interesting, I ‘like’ and comment if appropriate, and if they say something blah, I move on to the next blog. But sometimes lurking around the post-post comments section, one finds little nuggets of delight worth savouring. So, I’m going to start a ‘lurking’ series to share these these gems with a wider audience.
I hope this series will help illustrate the millions, nay billions, of interpretations available of the divinely inspired word of a clever god. Remember, we can’t draw any conclusions about what an excellent book it is from people’s inability to understand it correctly!
Today’s gem comes from someone who believes their deity saved them from certain death because they prayed correctly (even explaining how dead people failed in their prayers), and their deity makes them rich so they can share their wealth with poor people. Enjoy!
I would be dead if not for the teachings of Kenneth and Gloria Copeland (who you picture there), and for the “name it and claim it” theology you’re condemning as heresy. “Name it and claim it” is a gross understatement of what acting on faith really is, but the core theology is correct.
Didn’t God Himself “name it and claim it” when He spoke the very world into existence?
He asked the children of Israel to claim it in the Old Covenant:
“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore CHOOSE LIFE, that both thou and thy seed may live.” Deuteronomy 30:19
Choosing and claiming aren’t all that different.
The act of speaking words of faith to bring forth God’s power is a proven theology is scripture time and time again.
“Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.” ~ Proverbs 18:21
As for prosperity … which circumstance would bring more people to God? A poor person who can’t even feed their own family, and can’t promise a potential convert the comfort of that for their family should they choose God, or the person who is prosperous, yet choose to give away everything to care for the needy?
How are we supposed to give if we have nothing?
What about 3 John 1:2?
“Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.”
What about Jesus Himself, who NEVER turned away anyone who came to Him for healing? Not even the Phoenician woman, who was content to take the crumbs from under the table rather than “go hungry”.
Not even me. Because when I said I should be dead, I meant it. I was diagnosed with a congenital heart condition when I was 15 years old. The cardiologist recommended that I get pacemaker. After much prayer, God told me He would give me a miracle, if I was willing to pursue Him for it.
Three years later, all tests came back that my heart was perfectly NORMAL.
That is only one of the instances where satan has tried to steal my life.
It wasn’t a matter of “coercing” God into enacting my will. It was a matter of bringing myself – spirit, soul, and BODY – into submission to God’s will.
For those who have prayed and not been healed? I would first ask this:
Did they pray IF it be God’s will, or did they pray believing it WAS God’s will, no matter what the circumstances said? Because I’ve seen it both ways many times in my life – both in myself, and in others. Almost always, in the first case, it ends in not receiving a healing.
As for the first Christians – their faith was not less, or different, than ours. Do you really think Christ would have denied healing to one of the twelve, were they to come to Him needing it? He didn’t deny Peter’s mother-in-law. And in His ministry, well … they had enough money to actually NEED a treasurer. Jesus never left anyone to go hungry, either. Remember the loaves and fishes?
We should not be surprised at trials and tribulations in our own lives. But many times God has a way of escape out of them. There is an enemy seeking to destroy us, and to destroy our witness in the world. Why are we going to let him destroy us before we can finish God’s work?
We do agree on one thing, though:
“Clearly, God, not the words some person speaks, holds power. No amount of “positive confession” is acceptable as an excuse to order God to do whatever a person wants.”
Yes, the power is God’s – and God’s alone. But He has given us access to that power through Jesus, and since we are His ambassadors in the world, it is our responsibility to speak His word.
It’s not about getting what we WANT. It’s about getting what God has promised to us so we can reach more people for Him.
God has already made good on His promises. It is up to us to receive them now.
Oh goodness. Oh my. Oh, the stupid. How it burns.
Question: how do you decide whether a given theological position (like the one presented here) is an accurate representation of the text being appealed to?
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The person has quoted to back up all their beliefs. The whole point of the Bible is that you can quote to back up any belief – but it’s impossible to be consistent if you take it as a whole.
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I agree that in a document as long and as diverse as the Bible, you can probably dig up something to support any view. But that doesn’t mean all usages are equally legitimate.
If I say “My God commands me to perform nude worship because King David did it once,” surely that’s much more of a stretch than “My God commands me to preach the gospel because he says so in such-and-such a verse.” Wouldn’t you agree?
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It depends how much charisma the person doing the preaching has. People can be convinced of anything if it’s presenting in an appealing way.
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Oh, certainly. But I’m not interested in the convincingness (is that a word?) of a particular sermon, but in how accurately a position actually represents what’s being quoted.
Most people (I hope) would agree that the argument for universally-commanded nude dancing based on a story about a guy who did it is at least a LITTLE more tenuous than saying Jesus wanted Christians to preach the gospel.
So at SOME level we should be able to make an objective determination of whether someone is making a fairly reasonable claim or just pulling out crap that isn’t really there.
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I’ll keep an eye out for the naked dancing sect and get back to you on this. 🙂
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Oh dear, that seriously made my brain hurt and my posture slump. What desperately odd people…
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I’m optimistic about this lurking series, it’s nice to give nutty opinions a wider airing!
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For your own amusement 😉
I’m certainly going to enjoy what tasty morels you present
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Interesting post – and sad too. I hope you find good things in your lurking as well. I suspect there isn’t a person alive who hasn’t written or said at least one stupid thing. I try to learn from my blunders…
Blessings ~ Wendy
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Thanks Wendy. I think you make a good point, I’ll try and look out for nicer interpretations too.
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There isn’t an intelligent thing about Christianity.The best words a Christian could possible utter would be,” I realised it was all nonsense so I became sensible, and gave it up.”
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Ark, that’s rude! Please don’t be unwelcoming to people kind enough to leave their opinions (unless they say discriminatory or harmful things). Her point was perfectly valid.
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Oh, all right. You are so sensitive. I was having a go at Christianity per se. I am sure there are nice individuals among its ranks. They are just a tad misguided, that’s all: Mary Magdalene,Thomas, Ken Ham, Billy Graham, Pontius Pilate, Constantine.
Wasn’t their fault, now was it?
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The question of what you personally consider to be the truth has yet to be resolved by Christians, as is evidenced by the (continually) growing number of sects.
The general belief that Yashua is also the Christian god, God, is an erroneous belief and said title and accompanying claim of divinity was bestowed upon Jesus by the early church. It was certainly never a claim made by Jesus, in fact he actively denied it, and it was disputed by many followers until Constantine with the help of the Church’s greatest early liar, Eusebius, and later,Theodosius, established said godhood and divinity in Law made Christianity the official religion of the Empire and set about annihilating all opposition.
Sad to say, the average Christian is woefully ignorant of most of the history of their faith, being inculcated by the church to believe in a whitewashed meek and mild Jesus and all the other puerile nonsense. What’s worse, it is shocking that this grossly inaccurate tale is passed on to children by shameless believers who in many cases should not be let within a mile of such impressionable minds.
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The above comment is for greenlightlady
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Sigh, I realise it was for greenlightlady. I only suggested you look at her bees. She has lovely bees. I’m sure she’s not the least bit interested in your opinion. But while you’re using every opportunity to rant at people, I’ll ask for clarification – where does Jesus deny being the son of God?
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”..where does Jesus deny being the son of God?”
Please don’t misquote me. that’s not nice.
Jesus denies being the god , God.
Are you serious? Come on, Violet are you truly unaware of the biblical passage this is from?
I am sorry, but I am not going to explain the bible to a fellow atheist. This should be one of the reasons why you are an atheist.
Ask the blog-god Physics and Whiskey.
I looked at greenlightlady’s pics, they are lovely , especially the shots of the fuchsias.
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Don’t be absurd. I started my de-conversion process with the nasty words about women and homosexuals. I can’t remember other details about the Bible, and inconsistencies obviously never bothered. Why don’t you want to quote the Bible? Afraid you might convert me?
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Oh good grief….
Type in Google search. Jesus: Why do you call me good?
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Oh my goodness! Do the Christians know about this? Someone phone the Pope and Unkleee!
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I am pretty sure they put their thumb over this and skip to the next verse.
Though if you want an in depth explanation – Christian, naturally – there are several places/sites that devote tomes to explaining what Yashua really meant, so it fits in with accordance to mainstream christian belief. Really clever, hey?
Ans they all lived happily ever after the live long day tra la la…
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No doubt Arkenaten is referring to Luke 18, where Jesus responds to a privileged snobbish youngster’s pandering by snidely asking the young man just how good he thinks Jesus actually is.
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Sorry. I’m confused. Was Jesus being snide, or was he suggesting he was neither divine nor at one with the holy trinity?
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He’s being snide.
Rich young ruler: “Oh good teacher?”
Jesus: ‘Oh brother.’ “Wait, why are you calling me good? Only God is good. Are you good? How good are you? What are you trying to prove?”
Questions aren’t statements.
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Hi Arkenaten,
I am sorry that I did not read this sooner. Truth is only truth because it’s true and not because someone says it is, and it is not any less true when someone claims it is not. So we’ll both have to agree to disagree as to whether either of our beliefs are true or not. I guess we’ll find out at the end of our lives. In the meantime, I want to call to attention Isaiah 9:6 which is Old Testament (written before Jesus was born on earth). It predicts the birth of the Messiah and calls him “Mighty God”. Then in the New Testament in Matthew 1:23 Jesus is called “Immanuel – which means, ‘God with us.'”
Yes, Christians disagree on a lot of small stuff. In the denominations I am comfortable with there are differences. As long as the main doctrine of essential Christianity is preserved I am not concerned. But when people add or take away from the Bible in radical ways then I am alarmed. I believe the Bible is the inspired word of God. No, I don’t understand all of it; but I respect it even if I don’t like everything that is written in it ( Some of the Bible heroes really were losers; but God is able to work through them – including someone as insignificant as me).
Blessings dear friend 🙂
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greenlightlady, you are picking the particular verse in Mathew out of context. Allow me to copy it here
first note that the person writing this must have read Isaiah, he is repeating what Isaiah wrote. While he says that the boy will be called Immanuel, nowhere in the gospels is Yeshua called such, if you can find, please share with me.
Two a few chapters after Isaiah said the words that are called prophecy, he shags a woman and bears a son, which means the prophecy was to be fulfilled through him and not in a future date.
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@ Greenlight lady
The fact that you consider it necessary to point out to me that the Old Testament was “written before Jesus was born on earth” and that you might think I would not know this, or the text in question suggests a level of fundamentalist inculcation on your part that almost beggars belief, and I have to mentally downshift , give myself a pinch and once again try to come to terms with the fact that there are still many, many people in the world that think like you do, and many are living in countries considered First World.
In itself this is of deep concern, especially if one considers that people like yourself are in a position to elect similar-minded individuals to the highest echelons of public office, who then make policy decisions that effect normal people on a global scale.
I am sorry, dear, I will not engage with anyone who will so blithely utter such a trite response and who obviously has no proper understanding of what this verse actually means or its context.
The Ark shakes head and walks away in a bemused stupor.
And I apologize in advance to Violet wisp….but…..this is a
Silly Person.
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Ark, I found that so unnecessarily and exceptionally rude that I’m going to request that you to desist from replying to comments by Christians on my post, until you can manage to do so without throwing personal insults around. I would like my blog to be a place where anyone can freely comment and join a discussion without feeling they may be pounced upon by Rabid Fundamentalist Atheist throwing around ridiculous ‘I’m cleverer than you are’ insults. It means nothing and it’s totally uncalled for. I know you’ll probably now skulk off in huff and refuse to visit me again, but you’ll always be my best blogging buddy.
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Amazing. Good for the goose etc doesn’t apply?
You put up a series of posts which you appear to have literally lifted from source that essentially mock and vilify Christianity and those that punt it – yet consider my response to someone who condescendingly deigns to direct me to an erroneous piece of scripture and presumes I am unaware of the ridiculous Jesus prophecies in Isiah to be rude?
Tis your blog, my dear. Do as you will.
However, if people address me as an idiot then I will treat them with the respect they deserve.
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My goodness, if you can’t see the difference between the way greenlaternlady addressed you and the way you addressed her …? I don’t know. She addressed you assuming that as an atheist you don’t know any of her holy book (wrong assumption) and you might be interested in hearing her interpretation of some quotes from her holy book (wrong assumption).
Quotes from her: “we’ll have to agree to disagree”, “I don’t understand it all”, “friend”.
Quotes from you:”I have to mentally downshift”, “I will not engage with anyone who will so blithely utter such a trite response” – and I’m not even going to bother with silly ‘First World’ comment.
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See new thread.
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Cool, shall we both pop over to the blogs you have lifted for your last couple of post and ask the blog owners what they think about what you have done to their posts? How they feel about the way your unchristian responses might be considered ”so unnecessarily and exceptionally rude ” ?
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You’re being very childish. You were personally and unnecessarily rude to a friendly woman giving her point of view – no malice, discrimination or harm in sight. The purpose of these posts is to demonstrate the breadth of opinion that people extract from the Bible – P&W’s inability to acknowledge this range was what prompted the idea in the first place. The opinions expressed within the extracts I’ve posted display harmful and discriminatory ideas that have easily been backed with quotes from the Bible. That was all I wished to demonstrate.
I haven’t linked to them because the posts are old, the people weren’t looking for a ‘fun’ atheist chat (which would undoubtedly be counter-productive), and if any readers are desperate to follow up, they can use google. However, it wouldn’t bother me in the slightest if the people who made the statements read what is written here, otherwise I wouldn’t have posted them. I follow all the blogs they come from, some of them follow me, and I have commented at some point on posts in all of them, so they can easily link to me and may indeed be regular fellow lurkers.
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And now you are not only cherry picking your argument but compartmentalizing christians based on how threatening or detrimental you view their particular brand of Christianity. Nice.
When your kid is old enough why not invite her to babysit and read stories about Jesus?
Tell me, how direct are you over on that Christian blog run by that man and his wife?
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Explain to me what the main points of the argument are then and I’ll try and address them all.
“compartmentalizing christians based on how threatening or detrimental you view their particular brand of Christianity” – Definitely. I respond to individuals as individuals – regardless of their faith status. If an atheist expresses sexist or homophobic views I’ll respond in the same way as I would to a sexist or homophobic Christian, with logical arguments.
“When your kid is old enough why not invite her to babysit and read stories about Jesus?” – I don’t think she lives near me. I don’t know her personally and I don’t let strangers babysit my child. I don’t care if other people read stories about Jesus to my child, I’m sure both her grandmothers will.
“how direct are you over on that Christian blog run by that man and his wife?” – I’m direct but never rude. You can browse around for yourself if you want to check, and let me know what you think. 🙂
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My babysitting suggestion was obviously rhetorical, I suspect even if she lived next door and knew you she might be more concerned your child would try to convert her.
Your definition of rude may differ from mine. I consider your christian lady was being condescending.
(As I consider P& W an sanctimonious apologetic arse.)
I also consider her woefully ignorant of biblical text.
And yes, it IS a concern that someone with such bronze age unenlightened beliefs is able to vote. More so because there are hundreds of thousands just like her. The Ark shudders….
I am generally a good judge of character but am always pleased when proved wrong.
Christianity has had 2000 years to sort out its act and its jolly band of supporters.
My lifespan is likely to be somewhat less than this and my patience is a tad thin.
I call it as I see it.
I respect that this is your blog and you want as many people to see your pretty pictures and not be scared off by a Pharaoh that Tells The Truth.
Feel free to delete any comment you consider has crossed your line. I will take no offense, you have my word.
But I am afraid a Silly Person is a Silly Person.
She most definitely qualifies,
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” I consider your christian lady was being condescending. (As I consider P& W an sanctimonious apologetic arse.)”
Both these opinions are a direct reflection of your own insecurity, and not anything you could extract from things they’ve said. Objective opinion. Please take a moment to reflect on this.
“And yes, it IS a concern that someone with such bronze age unenlightened beliefs is able to vote. More so because there are hundreds of thousands just like her. ”
There are billions like her. Using the “I’m smarter than you are” card is meaningless and childish. Atheists aren’t superior or more intelligent (if that means anything), we just have a different way of looking at the world, and are perhaps more prone to using critical thinking.
“I respect that this is your blog and you want as many people to see your pretty pictures and not be scared off by a Childish Ranting Pharaoh.”
Well, I’m glad you’ve recognised this is my main concern 🙂
“Feel free to delete any comment you consider has crossed your line. I will take no offense, you have my word.”
Nothing to delete. It’s a permanent record of what you’ve learned.
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See new thread
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Dear Arkenaten and Makagutu,
I would like to add once last contribution to this discussion. If you are curious you may want to check out: “The Case for Christ” by Lee Strobel who is a former atheist and investigative journalist. While still an atheist, he set out to prove that Christianity was false, because he was so annoyed (to say the least) that his wife had become a Christian. The book tells of this journey. There are You-tube clips etc. of Lee speaking on the topic if you would like to Google his name.
Blessings ~ Wendy (“silly” but saved)
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Dear Greenlightlady,
At the risk of offending you and our oversensitive blog host I will please ask you at all times to recognize that as I am a full-blown, hard-core atheist and to bear in mind this mantra…”been there, done that got the whole store full of T-shirts” Thank you.
Also, thank you for the lead about Lee Strobel. My opinion on Mr. Strobel and his book would not be welcome in this environment but I am sure Violetwisp will thoroughly enjoy his outreaching wonderful prose.
I am only flabbergasted that Strobel has never been nominated for a Darwin award. But then I understand these are normally awarded posthumously. Perhaps he will be able to show his award to Jesus when the time comes?
I am so happy for you that you have been saved, but politely inquire, saved from what?
Blessing , Wendy, Peace and all that other good s**t.
May your journey be always gentle.
🙂 Here’s a little Jesus Sunbeam.
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In reply to your inquiry, I am saved from the penalty of my sin which is, in essence, separation from a Holy God.
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I have been told several times to consider Lee Strobel’s book, I haven’t had the time to do so. I think it would be helpful to you to look for The Case against The Case for Christ, it might dissuade you from taking Strobel seriously. And I don’t see what makes you think that adding that he was an atheists adds credence to his arguments?
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I have written down the title you suggested and will Google it, later, when I come in from the garden.
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I hope to hear your comments when you read it, you might as well look for reviews done on Strobel’s book
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Ah…and which Holy God would that be?
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I believe there is only one Holy God – the God of the Bible. “Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.” Isaiah 45:22
Would you like to switch to my blog for our discussion and give our kind host a break? Here is a post that I did last year which is my favorite even though it does not have very good pictures or a poem. It will help you to understand where I’m coming from…I’d love to hear your response to it.
http://greenlightlady.wordpress.com/2012/07/04/on-either-side/
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Thank you , but no.
You are a Christian. With due respect there is everything for you to learn and I am not sure you could teach me anything.
Don’t get me wrong, I am not wheedling out of a good rollicking ding dong religious spat.
I am used to such encounters and often relish them. It is just that I find Religious people, especially reborns, fundamentalists and apologists have no real interest in reason or truth, however it may manifest, as most are not even aware of the truth behind their respective faiths, be they Jewish, Christian or Muslim…or many others.
Although each is convinced and will vehemently defend it. Look at what is happening in Bangladesh.
Your best avenue for true enlightenment would be to visit a blog hosted by a Christian de-convertee, if you were unafraid?
There are several I chat with here in blogland and one chap, Nate, a nicer more humble man you could not wish to meet. Nicer than me, at any rate! lol.
He came to the realisation that the bible is false doctrine and when he raised his fears with his church and family they turned on him and turned away.
It nearly broke him. But he was a strong feller.
His personal story reinforces my general disgust for religion every time I consider it.
And there are many like him.
For me it was an eyeopener. I did not realise this level of Christian fundamentalism was alive and kicking in the world today. Naive that I am. And of course you will find it in other religions as well.
Religion is anathema.
It corrupts, it poisons minds and destroys human dignity.
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That is so sad that Nate’s family “turned on him and turned away.” One of my brothers and one of my sons has told me within the last two years that they are now atheists. I do not love them any less. And my son and I have chosen to be respectful to each other even though our beliefs are so different now in many ways. I am learning a lot from my son as he shares with me stuff he has learned from an atheist point of view. I agree that religion can be poisonous if applied in a toxic way. Nice to have chatted with you. I wish you all the best. Take care ~ Wendy
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Likewise. You know where I ‘live’ should you fancy a change of ‘air’ . Pop over any time.
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Arkenaten, I don’t blame you for thinking that…there’s a lot of nonsense to sort through in the Christian circle. I just hope I stay true to the truth. Blessings ~ Wendy
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Lurking. The way you describe it, it’s a whole new perspective for me. At first, I thought my blog might be in a nutty corner, but when I read the whole post, my fear subsided (temporarily). Thank you for quoting this!
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I probably stole it from somewhere. I think John accused me of lurking once and it stuck in my head. I like it, because I do feel a bit weird surfing through people’s personal thoughts, revisiting to read comments and not leaving a mark. I think your blog is safely out of the nutty corner … but I’ll be checking your comments carefully. 🙂
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Thank you. I’ll keep that in mind. Love the word: lurking. 🙂 Doesn’t matter at all who mentioned it first…
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This is really is a gem. Christians specifically and theists generally don’t disappoint.
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It’s a disturbingly ignorant and harmful interpretation – widespread mockery and derision are more than due!
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And I guess you must be lurking in many places to find such comments. The few christian blogs I visit, I get bored before I finish reading the post so reading the comments would be pushing my luck!
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If I don’t get a time machine in a minute, I’m gonna have to settle for a beer.
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Is that an irre[l]eve[r]ent comment or am I supposed to be able to extract sense?
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Ready to fast forward to the point where the bible is on the fiction shelf 🙂
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What faith you have in evolution! I’m sure some nutty science-based religion that can almost be proved and has a holy ipad is just round the corner (scientology but better thought out). Atheism has a shelf life, it’s just not natural!!
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I hope I am intellectually sound at least to a degree. This reminds me of Citizen Smith: “We’ll just do our ballroom dancing demonstration, then you can bring the nutters on”. Maybe I should come here to find Christian bloggers: Green Light Lady has some lovely bee photos.
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Does she? Thanks for the tip!! The ‘intellectually sound (almost)’ comment was for you and only one other, deary us.
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They walk among us…and they breed!
”Eeeek….run for them thar hills, Betty-Sue.”
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Don’t worry, I’m reliably informed that independent thought is high on the agenda for their offspring. 🙂
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Check out greenlightlady (up the comments) – some bee and flower photos that could compete! (don’t read any of the words so that you don’t get upset)
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Sheesh! You and your ‘competing’. You’ll give yourself an ulcer.
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Did you see her bees?
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And here I’ve been praying the wrong way all this time. If only I had known!
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” I consider your christian lady was being condescending. (As I consider P& W a sanctimonious apologetic arse.)”
Both these opinions are a direct reflection of your own insecurity, and not anything you could extract from things they’ve said. Objective opinion. Please take a moment to reflect on this.
Erm…okay I have taken a moment and reject your statement out of hand. I have no insecurities in this regard, but thank you for the – albeit unqualified – off the cuff, Freudian analysis. I do appreciate that you care. That may be sarcasm. I haven’t made up my mind.
“And yes, it IS a concern that someone with such bronze age unenlightened beliefs is able to vote. More so because there are hundreds of thousands just like her. ”
There are billions like her. Using the “I’m smarter than you are” card is meaningless and childish. Atheists aren’t superior or more intelligent (if that means anything), we just have a different way of looking at the world, and are perhaps more prone to using critical thinking.
I am not superior and would never, ever tout this. But yes, I am most likely more intelligent.
“I respect that this is your blog and you want as many people to see your pretty pictures and not be scared off by a Childish Ranting Pharaoh.”
Well, I’m glad you’ve recognised this is my main concern
Always. What you may lack in blogging acumen you make up for in Photography Skills.
“Feel free to delete any comment you consider has crossed your line. I will take no offense, you have my word.”
Nothing to delete. It’s a permanent record of what you’ve learned.
Learned? Ah, that the blog host struggles with big words? No? Go on, be sweetie, give me a clue.
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What big words do I struggle with? I’m juggling two languages here, my brain was already on full capacity, there may have been leakage …
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