outcomes of israeli actions
I’ve blogged and commented at length on my understanding of ‘sin’ and ‘morality’, as they are traditionally referred to. A quick recap for those who missed it: all actions should be analysed on the basis of potential positive and negative outcomes, and the decision should be made based on where that balance falls. Logic, reasoning and natural empathy will guide the process. This is not to suggest that we sit down with pen and paper every time we have to make a decision. Most of our decisions in life are easy no-brainers that can be traced to common cultural understandings of useful or harmful behaviour (killing, stealing etc.) But then there are the so-called moral dilemmas, like euthanasia or stealing to feed hungry children, situations where black and white rules become ridiculous and weighing outcomes is obviously the only sensible thing to do.
Applying this system to even bigger, more complicated situations, I think is also useful. Tongue Sandwich recently did a post commemorating the 65th anniversary of the State of Israel. It was a straight-forward representation of what he felt Israel has achieved in 65 years. I felt it didn’t give a rounded picture of the situation and he suggested I could write something on my blog to look at the flip side to the history of Israel.
I personally cannot admire the “tremendous success of the State of Israel” without acknowledging that as a direct result of the creation of Israel, there are currently around 5 million Palestinian refugees, displaced from their homes, living in difficult conditions often in places where they are unwanted, and with no hope of returning to their land. I would also have to acknowledge the number of people who have died as a direct result of the creation of Israel. The Jewish Virtual Library tells me that 25,000 Israelis have died, and over 90,000 Arabs/Palestinians. I suspect these figures don’t tell the whole story, but I’m also suspicious of the frequently quoted Palestinian death toll of 5 million that is floating around chat rooms on the internet.
Therefore, displacement, death and suffering are part and parcel of the success story of Israel. They are integral to understanding how Israel has arrived where it is today, and the story of the nation is not complete without acknowledging the damage that has been done.
Returning to the idea of weighing up positive and negative outcomes, I have the following questions to ask about the situation in Israel:
- When surrounded by hostile territory and people who explicitly state they want to destroy your country, is it possible to improve the situation by making the living conditions of those with a grudge against progressively more atrocious?
- If a known terrorist is hiding in a building with civilians (including children), is it reasonable to bomb the building in order to attempt an assassination because the children should have known better or the terrorist hid there on purpose?
- If ‘they started it!’ doesn’t cut it when children are fighting in schools, why should it be a reasonable excuse for violence among adults?
- Can a cycle of violence ever end, if the richer, better educated country continues to inflict a death toll of somewhere between three and 10 times greater than that which they receive?
From the point of view of an outsider, Arab hatred of Israelis is at its root completely irrational. Their religious-fueled brainwashing mantras of destruction against of this group of people is ignorant, illogical and unreasonable. So, I can’t for the life me think why Israel is hellbent on giving Palestinians buckets of fuel in the form of unnecessary deaths and suffering to feed their fire of hate. I hope the story of Israel takes a turn for the better in the coming years. I hope that the people of Israel recognise that if they want the situation to change, if they want a chance of living without fear, they need to deal with the psychology of irrational hatred a little more logically.
A word of caution: as usual, I have an open comments policy on this post. However, if anyone posts anything that other readers find truly offensive, I will consider removing it.
There have been many Nobel peace prizes awarded over Isreal and the death machine it is. Given your definitions above, the only rational option is that both sides decide to give a bit and live together peacefully. Yeah, that’s going to happen. Dumb apes!
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They weren’t doing too badly 14 years ago. There’s a lack of long-term thinking on both sides.
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When they agree to live in peace with each other, please tell me. I will throw a toast to honour rationality
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It’s difficult for me I guess to fully understand how the psychology of fear must undermine rational thinking for people on both sides.
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One reason why the Iron Dome is such a damn good idea.
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If it actually works.
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Yeah, it works. Quite well.
For quite some time, the only way the Israelis could defend against rogue rocket attacks was to make military strikes against suspected insurgents inside civilian populations. Obviously, this only angered the Palestinian public, prompting more rocket attacks.
Now, the Israelis can sit back and laugh while Iron Dome swats rockets out of the sky like Shaq rejecting a 3-pointer. It’s pretty fantastic. Like a real-life version of Missile Command.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-21751766
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A friend of mine actually worked on some of the designs for those warheads. Postol doesn’t know what he’s talking about, I’m afraid. You don’t need a “head-on” hit to destroy an incoming rocket, because they don’t rely on direct contact.
An anti-missile SAM uses a high explosive to detonate a cluster of jagged tungsten cubes into a cloud several meters in diameter. The cloud acts like a net, catching and ripping apart the incoming rocket due to the latter’s own kinetic energy. IIRC, it only takes contact with two of the cubes to obliterate a missile.
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Good! In that case, I agree. A very useful device.
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It’s better than shooting back, that’s for sure.
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Agreed
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One analogy….
A rich guy walks his kids to school every morning past a playground. Unfortunately, the playground is filled with poor kids, and about a quarter of them have Uzis. The kids with Uzis like shooting at the rich kids.
If the rich guy can’t walk the kids to school along a different path, he has three options.
A ) Carry an AR-15 and return proportional fire, hoping to hit only the kids with Uzis
B ) Wade into the fray with a shotgun and riot gear and try to take all the Uzis away
C ) Give his kids bulletproof vests and hope for the best
None of these options are particularly pretty.
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That’s not an analogy. The poor kids would have to be locked out of the rich kids area and not allowed any freedom of movement, and have limited access to food and medication. The rich kids would have to have kicked the poor kids out the school in the first place. And the rich kids would have to be killing right back at the poor kids at a rate of between 3 and 10 times higher. That type of over-simplification does nothing for the real situation. But seeing as you’ve gone there, the most sensible thing to do would be to analyse the reasons for the hatred and shooting, and try and stop it spiralling out of control. Because any idiot can see that shooting the poor kids would only breed more hatred and more shooting.
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In this debate, I’m ready to applaud anyone who does not resort to violence. I’d need a book to describe my thoughts about Israel, so I won’t even make an attempt to do that. One thing would like to state is that I think people often have higher expectations about Israel than about the surrounding countries. When they comment on Israeli politics, they seem to expect higher moral standards than when they look at the current state of affairs in, say, Syria, Iraq or even Turkey. I wonder if that’s fair.
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Yes, I agree, there is a tendency to expect more rational thinking from Israel. They have much more access to education and free thinking, and as the ‘incomers’ who have displaced so many people, should understand that the bitter reaction of people living with much less is inevitable, but fanning the flames with fear-driven counter violence is ultimately counter productive in breeding more hatred. I can understand the fear but I don’t understand the short-term thinking that seems inherent in their reactions.
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The thing nearly every commentator forgets/omits/ignores is the wording of the Balfour Declaration:
“His Majesty’s government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people…”
Here’s that again: a Jewish state INSIDE PALESTINE.
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So not two separated Palestinian territories within Israel?
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It’s quite clear: a Jewish state “inside” Palestine. In the 65 years since that has become a few Palestinian refugee camps inside Israel.
Look, personally i think both sides are categorically insane. We waste so much time on both of them. They’re both dicks. That said, I can at least sympathise with the Palestinians. It’s their land. They were there fighting Alexander the Great, NOT the Hebrews.
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Just to set the record straight, I did NOT suggest that violetwisp should write something “to look at the flip side to the history of Israel,” in the sense that I thought this “flip side” exists and ought to be elabotaed on and that Israel should be faulted for it, as it is the usual practice. I do NOT wish to be associated with this article or this blog and emphatically distance myself from both.
Here is the actual exchange from the comments section of my article Mazel Tov and Happy Birthday! Israel Turns 65:
violetwisp
April 15, 2013 at 4:29 pm
“the history of the Jewish people and the country of Israel has been, against seemingly overwhelming odds, an amazing success story.” I agree, it’s an interesting progression in such a short time and from such a troubled history. But I don’t think you do history any justice by not mentioning the effects this progression has had on other people, and suggesting you won’t publish comments from those who would wish to acknowledge the flip side of the Israeli success story.
Tongue Sandwich™
April 15, 2013 at 5:09 pm
It’s wasn’t my intention to “do history justice.” I’m not nearly that ambitious. I’m quite content to express what the tremendous success of the State of Israel means to me as a Jew. You’re more than welcome to write an article on your blog acknowledging what you call “the flip side.”
I cautioned commenters against “converting the comments section to this congratulatory little article into a political battlefield of vehemently opposed views regarding the State of Israel.” and made it clear that “The idea of publishing this piece was to show that the history of the Jewish people and the country of Israel has been, against seemingly overwhelming odds, an amazing success story.” What happens in the comments section to this article is not my concern.
Anyway, it’s good to see that anti-Semitism, even in it’s less overt and more subtle expressions, is alive and well.
“…anti-Zionist is inherently antisemitic, and ever will be so.” Martin Luther King Jr
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Don’t play the anti-Semite nonsense, Tongue. This is politics we’re talking about, not race, creed, religion.
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“anti-Semitism, even in it’s less overt and more subtle expressions, is alive and well.”
Where? I’m serious. I don’t see anything here that demonstrates prejudice, hatred of, or discrimination against Jews. How on earth can you equate criticism of the actions of a government with that? Writing off any attempt by outsiders to analyse or give their opinion of the situation as ‘anti-Semitic’ is a really odd way to behave.
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It appears to me that Mr Netanyahu and his current coalition partners want to make a two state solution unviable, and drive the refugees from their current camps in the Gaza Strip to foreign countries. I acknowledge and respect the actions of such organisations as ICAHD. What would be a right solution, I have no idea. And there has been death and suffering, no matter what the rights and wrongs of the situation.
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There are periods of relative peace that I think can usefully be built on, like 14 years ago. I think the key is to consider long-term consequences of reactions to any smaller outbreaks of violence that occur within the periods of relative peace – if they’ve not past the point of no return (in terms of embedded hatred and resentment) already …
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Shall I? Nah…..
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Yes, you should
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Politics are not really my thing, John, though could definitely give it a religious spin, and, besides, it seems Tongue’s post on this matter has gone/deleted?
Or I am not looking in the right place?
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Isn’t that odd! Yes, it appears he’s deleted it and he doesn’t want to talk about the matter. I feel quite offended that someone suggests I’m anti-Semitic and won’t even do me the courtesy of discussing why they feel this is the case. I hope he comes back and explains his point of view a bit better. I wonder if his blog has any bearing on his profession or if it’s a purely personal strop.
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Couldn’t say. I know I have felt the need to delete posts that I have written. Usually where after due consideration I have felt the words, or images, weren’t really ‘me’.
Granted, they have been VERY few and far between, so maybe he just felt the same?
Although I agree, it does seem a bit pissy, to imply you are anti-Semitic and then chuff off into the wilderness for 40 minutes or however long.
Maybe there was a golden calf that needed polishing or something?
You know why Synagogues are round?
Apparently so Jews can’t hide in the corner when the collection plate comes around.’
Is that anti Semitic of just a lousy Jewish joke, I wonder?
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Dunno. I left it alone when i read “NO COMMENTS ALLOWED!!!”
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I really take issue with that. There’s something harmful about putting opinions up on a public space and refusing to discuss them. I understand that everyone is blogging for different reasons but I can’t get my head round not wanting to discuss things – even if you think everyone else is an ignorant idiot, it’s better to attempt to educate. Surely. Or maybe it’s just me.
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That was my reaction, too. Publish something then say, “Sorry, but i’m not going to allow any discussion on this matter”… and then he tries to pull the anti-Semite card!!!??? Please, spare me….
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The founding of the state of Israel was an attempt to correct one wrong, by creating a nother one. To drive all the Israelis away from the country where most of them have born, would be yet a nother one. As a country with an actual democratic election system, it could set such an example to the neighbouring countries. But it does not. It has set up an obvious apartheid system, with security systems based on the ethnicity of people.
There is a strong peace movement in Israel. That recognizes the human rights violations and fascistic methods used by the Israeli military. But there are also religious fanatics on boths sides.
The Israelis need peace, and the palestinians need peace. At the moment the Israelis think they are winning, so they do not think they need peace and the palestinians are loosing, so they fight ever more desperately.
Several treaties between the Palestinians and the state of Israel have been planned and even signed, but the current situation is, that the Israeli state gives full support to illegal immigrant squatters, who conquer land all the time from the Palestians.
More extreme organizations like Hamas gain popularity among the Palestinian population as Israel respects no treaties made with the more moderate organizations like Fatah. There is no law other than these gang like movements in the Palestinian areas, because they are not allowed to organize as a state. The attacks on Palestinian areas by Israel are not only police actions against some particular terrorists. They are a terror campaingn designed to make more Palestinians, especially the intellectual ones to move from the country and to destroy any infrastructure an emerging Palestinian state could have.
The poverty of the Palestinians has been a driving economic force in the growth of Israel. They have provided a cheap labour with almost no legal rights to represent themselves.
Israel disregards the authority of the UN very often and is supported in this by the veto-rights of the US. Several UN officials have been killed by deliberate Israeli fire, among those citizens of several different countries, like in the strike on the UN post in 2006.
It seems to me the Israelis are allmost as much victims of their own propaganda as the Palestinians.
The US wich is not only a very strong supporter of the state of Israel, militarily but also economically. It seems there is a very strong Christian Zionistic lobby for Israel in the US. Why are these Christian Zionists actually so keen on the support for Israel? It seems their interrest is not really that of the Jews, but the fullfillment of the prophesy that when the Israelis controll a certain segment of the so called “promised land”, it will hasten the end of the world. Yes, these are people who would want the world to end. As Jesus promised.
Would that fairytale ending be a happy one? Does saying this all make me an anti-semitist? I think not. I detest racism and I detest anyone who would claim I am a racist because I can not tolerate racism.
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Thanks Raut, great to have your take on it, as I now know it’s always going to be the most sensible and carefully considered opinion around. I’m worried you think that Christian Zionists are a significant factor in all this, in their desire to set the scene for their god’s final earthly show.
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Yes, there is a big difference between the modern world and the Biblical times when those fantasies about the end of the world as a good thing were formulated as an ideal of a religion, that today we have the actual means to bring about the end.
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Oh, and I have to say, that the Iron Dome, may be functional, but it does not mean like the Palestinians are simply going to continue lobbing their rockets at an efficient shield. Nor does it mean they will simply stop attacking Israel. They will find a new way to fight for their cause. For sure some armament manufacturer makes fortunes by selling these complicated weapon systems. The taxpayers of the US and Israel pay for them.
The Israeli politicians also ride the Palestinian terrorist threat. There seems to be a very active propaganda to make it seem like Palestinians and all the other Arab nations are just one big entity. As long as the politicians promise to protect the Israeli populace, they will not be questioned about their other politics, ironically, like stuff about the support of the illegal settlements. The illusions of superiority are so dangerous. They make people act like they do not have to take into account the other people.
The Palestinians are the underdog. Israel as a state and organized and modern military has all the political tools to resolve the problem. No, doubt the Islamist fanatics would continue their terrorist attacks even if the two-state system was organized and Israel actually helped the Palestinians to organize into a democratic nation, but it certainly would be the best way I can see they could ever stop the crisis. As that would eat away the support of the Palestinian populace for such organizations as Hamas, or at least their extremist elements. But as long as this equilibrium of terror is a good business for political thugs in both camps and especially in the stronger camp, that is Israel, then I guess the crisis will continue on and on…
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