solving the tricky problem of immigration
I get the impression that the following attitude towards immigrants is gaining popularity:
- You are in my country. I am better than you. You must be grateful I allow your presence here.
- You are in my country. My beliefs are smarter than yours. You must take on my beliefs.
- You are in my country. My language is superior. You must use only my language.
- You are in my country. My manners are better than yours. You must behave like me.
- You are in my country. My clothes make more sense than yours. You must wear clothes like mine.
I would like to suggest that the following attitude makes a lot more sense:
- Every person deserves equality of treatment. The world is a collection of randomly separated bits of land populated by endless tides of immigrants to and from other parts of the world. No group of people can stake exclusive claim to any part of this world – a country is not yours if you have been there 5 minutes, 5 years, or 50 generations.
- Follow the laws in the country you happen to inhabit. Campaign to change the laws if you think they are unjust.
Why do I have this feeling you used the word “must” a lot deliberately?
Did you answer my question about dog eating on the dogs blog? I’ve lost it somewhere…
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I thought this post answered that question! Immigrants have the same obligations as anyone else – follow the law of the land, and if the law is silly, campaign for change. If I don’t think it makes sense to eat pigs yet people do it, why should I think people eating dogs if it’s legal is any more disgusting? It’s the same misuse of lovely animals and I’ll campaign to make it illegal.
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Soooo, what you’re saying is immigrants do have to conform to their new country. Isn’t that exactly what the dog was saying?
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Sigh. I sometimes think my clever posts just don’t do the trick they do in my head. The dog was ranting about all the other stuff – be grateful, be like me. Immigrants are like any other person in a country and the stuff that is driving people to their xenophobic rants is basic law-breaking. Laws apply to everyone.
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But aren’t there also “un-written” laws (like, perhaps, politeness) that also must apply. Now before you start screaming i’m not saying immigrants are impolite, its just the first thing that popped in my head… but you know what i’m talking about, right? There has to be some bend, some give, so adaptation. Right?
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Tell me how you’ve adapted your behaviour to be a properly behaved Brazilian.
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I dance more… a LOT more.
Actually, though, my behaviour has been toward bettering Brazil. Animal rescue and the shelters we’ve set up aside, in my first year here I was appalled by the frequency of flooding in SP. Carelessly discarded garbage was a major problem. It clogged the drains… but there was a distinct lack of bins. In fact, there were no bins. So, not even being able to speak I sat down and wrote a detailed campaign for bins in the city, including an education programs, suggested slogans, school packs, corporate sponsorship, design, etc. It was a pretty impressive doc and after pissing off a few lowly public servants I actually found myself sitting in the office of the Secretary of Waste for SP: the BIG DUDE himself. I think he was so embarrassed that an Australian had to bring the issue to his desk that it shocked him into action. Three months later there were 20,000 new bins. None of my other programs were implemented (which pissed me off because they were bloody good and a consultant would have charged half a million for it… and I did it for free!) but I had success.
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I’m truly impressed! You given me my “I’m all talk and no action” headache (it’s not really sore but it’s a familiar feeling).
I think people naturally bend to fit in with whatever culture or group of people they are with. I guess with newly arrived immigrants, if they’re part of a bigger group, the impulse doesn’t hit the first generation. But changes happen, and both ways, as subsequent generations grow up.
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Just saying it goes both ways…. and just as long as the movement is in a positive direction everyone should be happy.
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Hey, why isn’t my new post up there on the right??? Did you not like it? B’wahahahaaaaaaa! 😦
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Oh, I take that back… I can see it there 🙂
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I would remove the like as a vengeful punishment for your careless outburst! But I can’t find the dislike button.
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Ha!
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Heartily concur! Dogs are people too. Sadly I eat chickens, sometimes pigs, and very occasionally cows. God gave them to us to eat, so who would I be to differentiate between a piggy and a carrot?
Dammit—can’t remember if I posted the links to especially revealing articles on Halal slaughter on animals in Britain. Apparently one quarter of all meat in Britain is Halal—to stay RCPC (religiously Correct Politically Correct) the divinely ordained method of slaughter was dictated by the religiously correct and accepted in UK slaughterhouses; so many more animals are being consciously tortured to death than the RC can eat so they go out onto the open market; along with horses no-one is any the wiser. NZ does Halal too, but we still ‘stun’ (electric shock) all before slaughter so they never know.
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Ark’s back!!!!
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I just saw your Pssst…. For some reason it didn’t show up in my email though.
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(Still haven’t figured out how to get replies to replies where I want them. Old dog, new tricks …)
For VIOLET’s dated June 5 at 12:30—
That IS my point … there’s nothing wrong with following the laws of the country you are in (but if ever in Arabee and called to help make up numbers for a stoning party I’ll pass, and take my chances) (you though, will dutifully toddle along to the Stone Merchants and pick up a few nice sharp clinkers, with a handful of gravel for afters?).
Miss Wisp — I would be rapt if all the Islamics and other religious nuts followed the laws of Britain when in Britain—do they though?
The root cause of their problem is their ‘holy’ book which should be cited as a masterpiece of hate-speech. We tolerate tens of thousands of words promoting viciousness but you selectively scream outrage at a T-shirt that simply requests people to obey our laws, or leave?
SO: if we go to Arabee and as a man I have it made full time, while you, mere woman are but a chattel (though with all the sacred rights of Islam protecting you and ensuring your absolute freedom …)
bugger, lost my thread here. Unexpected visitor …
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Well … if the law of the land violates international agreement abouts the treatment of humans, then it’s more important to follow the law of the world (which may result in being stoned anyway ..)
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Oh Violet, I think I love you … especially for this thought—
“Follow the laws in the country you happen to inhabit. Campaign to change the laws if you think they are unjust.”
—all you need do now (for the benefit of imported tribal savages) is put limits to the campaign you recommend. (The Taliban for example might take you at your word.)
May I respectfully suggest you add the entirely redundant word ‘peacefully’? Redundant because with a stroke of wishful thinking you’ve already got the little buggers to “Follow the laws in the country you happen to inhabit” …
If we all move to Arabee—will you marry an old dog? (I promise to stop at five, so you need never worry about being made redundant—and if we don’t make it work, you won’t have to worry about the costs of divorce—all we have to do is for me to tell you “I divorce you” three times and bingo! you are a free lady again (just don’t go out alone, that’s all. Only sluts do that, apparently).
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Again, only slightly following this. What’s wrong with following the laws in country you’re in?
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My reply went up above …
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As an equalist, I understand that true equality will cause pain in all quarters, and I will not be able to avoid that pain. The sentiment that the law is the final arbiter is a fine thing, but social contracts go beyond the law. That part is the part that will trip people up the most. You see, you can enjoy your culture why can’t the new immigrants? You can enjoy your religion, why can’t the new immigrants? The thing about multicultural society thinking is that it’s never done in a way that actually allows all the cultures to comingle and yet exist seperately. Most cultures say that to preserve their own culture they have to avoid everyone else’s. That melting pot thinking doesn’t work without financial incentives. On their own, people don’t like to get along much with people not like them.
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I don’t think that’s true. What percentage of your ethnic/cultural profile you know are you friends with or do you think are great people to hang about with? I see lots of people ‘like me’ that I don’t want to spend really much time with. Probably the percentage of people you ‘connect’ with is the same across cultures, but there are more of your culture where you living, so it seems they are easier to get on with. Also, if there aren’t opportunities to spend extended time with people (work, social circles) then there’s no link to make deeper connections. Okay, bit of a ramble, but I think I said something … 🙂
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A very valid point. But some don’t see it that way, they see people not so much trying for equality in law as trying to take over. When the law discriminates and is not objectively applied we (the incumbents) have a problem.
If, as a district changes to become at first a mix, then an enclave, and finally a fortress of immigrants—with its own local ‘law’—then we have a bigger problem. At what point shall we (a) recognise that we have a problem, and (b) do something about it? It ain’t gonna go away if we just ignore it, and if we don’t stop the disease in the incubation stages we possibly won’t stop it at all later. And yes, I am referring precisely to Islam. Sure, there good Nazis too, not all were as bad as the ones that scored the plum (got to reset ‘law’ closer to their heart’s desires).
My own way of ‘do something’ is to alert folks and try to have the Law as it stands applied equally to all … I still don’t see why someone is allowed to call me an infidel pig, and spit in the streets; but I’m not allowed to call him an infidel pig likewise?
My enchanting niece some years ago had a scruffy little dog about the size of a bull terrier PUP. Hairy little thing and so appealing it was used in TV commercials.
Niece, slightly built with cascades of naturally gorgeous hair was walking little dog by herself in a London park when two muslim gentlemen (late teens, she said) started pelting her tiny dog with stones (apparently dogs are unclean animals in Islam) and when she gathered dog into her arms they started pelting her regardless. I guess they were only obeying the letter of the law—their law, not mine.
Just as well she ran off cuddling dog or the UK police may have charged her with inciting religious hatred. You’ll possibly love the example of UK gone mad I’m posting later …
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Did someone really call you an infidel pig? How rude! I’m sorry about your niece’s experience, I’ve had unpleasant incidents with Muslim men too, but there are two important things to remember:
1. I’ve had more unpleasant incidents with men from my own culture. I don’t tag their action with their religion or culture because it’s familiar, so I tag them as idiots. The rude Muslims are idiots too. Idiot knows no cultural bounds.
2. Fear of the unknown makes us remember incidents like that more clearly, and fits into our naturally evolved xenophobic brain. We must use logic to overcome these silly responses and realise that the long-term consequences of alienating groups of people for the actions of a few, are grim.
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You could always embrace Islam with open arms, you know. Win/win, they’ll be overjoyed to accept you into the faith.
Be warned though, if you don’t like it there’s no escape afterwards. You can’t do to them what some do to Christ, and turn your back with a snorted “Oops! My bad, I’m outa here!” (They disapprove of that.)
Good luck, Miss Wisp …
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Exactly: if you’re in a certain country, follow their laws.
I can think of some exceptions, though. I live in China, but I have a VPN which allows me to access foreign websites such as Facebook or WordPress. This is illegal. Is this immoral? Is it immoral for me to go to a demonstration against the government? It is certainly against the law.
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Oooh, tricky questions, I’m sure you have a better answer than me. My fuzzy head can’t come up with anything at this point in time, AND I’ve had a coffee.
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Scottish black water is NOT coffee! (So says the guy in Brazil)
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You’re not wrong! Scottish black water on a budget is even worse!
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I did have another think about this. And I guess that anything that goes against basic human rights obviously requires a different approach.
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Here in Finland this new term of “immigration criticism” has appeared on the political arena for few years. One of our smallest political parties has ridden to success, with this ideal, of hidden racism, and other very nationalistic ideals (like the EU criticism). It is one thing to critisize immigration politics, but when they also harbour and accept the votes of people with openly hostile and racistic attitudes, it reveals all this criticism to be just demagougery and shameless use of ignorant xenophobia.
It seems the immigrant can do no good according to these people. If the immigrant has a job, that job is robbed from the native Finns and if the immigrant does not have a job, it is because the immigrant came here purposefully to live of our social security. As if most of our immigrants had hardly ever even heard of our little country before they ended up here. These extremist politicians spout out jargon about how our borders should be protected from outsiders, but offer no explanation as to how that would affect freedom of all people. They even have the audacity to appeal to our previous wars against the Soviet agressions as if they were fought in order to protect our country from foreigners moving here, when in fact those wars were fought for the freedom of people to move and live where ever they themselves choose to.
The agenda is to controll people and segragate them according to their ethnicity. The Eglish translation of the party riding the hobby horse of “immigration critique” is quite revealing. The direct translation of the party name “perussuomalaiset” would be the “Basic Finns”, but they oped for the translation “True Finns” as if other Finns were not true Finns at all. If they felt that the name “Basic Finns” was making them look like goofy, they should have asked themselves what does their Finnish name tell about them. Anyway, what also is quite revealing is the name of the Finnish main “immigration critique” forum in the net. It is called “Suomen Sisu” or short the “SS”, wich may have been a tongue in the cheek name before they grasped political influence. May it be humorous or not, it is obvious who these dudes hold admiration to. This may partly be because of our complex relationship with the Nazi Germany during WWII, wich the Finns have never really repented. As the popular myth is, that the German help decided our fate in the war, by helping us to keep our independence. No doubt the alliance with Germany decided our fate, but wether we would have needed their help, if we had not been allied with them is a nother matter.
The “immigration critics” are often full of hate. At lowest level it is a drunk adult in a public transport agressively telling little kid, who does not look like a native Finn, that the kid has no right to be in this country. On another level it is people with similar attitudes, in internet telling each other how the “tolerant” native people should all be violently punished for anti-patriotism. What they do not seem to grasp is that “tolerant” Finns, such as myself, do not tolerate immigrants, or foreigners. We do not need to “tolerate” anyone we accept as they are, but we tolerate the opinions of these “immigration critics”. Because it is their hatefull opinions, that require toleration. We tolerate their opinions, but not their actions.
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Thanks Raut! As ever, a massively interesting and informative comment. You’re right that immigrants are either “taking our jobs” or are “sponging off the state”. In Argentina there are loads of Chinese immigrants who spotted a lucrative business model and set up local supermarkets. They employ loads of Argentinians and provide a service that was lacking. But they’re blamed for squeezing out the smaller local shops … by the very people who abandon the smaller local shops because the Chinese supermarkets are more convenient. When there are no immigrants to blame for things, people just blame other sections of their society – the welfare scroungers in the social housing areas, the drug addicts, the businessmen, the Catholics … whoever is least like them. Tribalism is inevitable. Scotland is voting for independence next year – if it goes through, we’ll stop blaming the English for everything and start the finger pointing in other directions – city against rural, east against west, and every other division that can be dreamt up.
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