a question for christians about abortion
I’ve noticed that most of the anti-abortion movement seems to be quite religiously inclined. Certainly the Catholic Church and other Christians from the United States seem to be the most vocal on this topic. There are several things about their concern in this area that baffles me.
Many Christians believe a fertilised egg or a foetus is essentially already a human being. So if it stops developing for any reason, I assume Christians believe it goes to heaven (or perhaps hell, depending on what the god knows of their personality). So surely those that get to heaven are actually better off. Correct me if I’m wrong, but in the Christian mind, they get to spend eternity in a glorious afterlife without having to endure any suffering here on Earth, is that right?
Christians insist they have full faith in an idyllic afterlife with their creator deity, yet so many of their passions betray either a deep lack of thought on what this would entail, or a deeper lack of faith in their beliefs. For those of us that understand the fleeting, random nature of existence, the loss of a chance to live and experience life is actually a more serious concern. But most of us realise that the sincere difficulties of those actually conscious and currently trying to live on this planet, outweigh the billions of potential lives that could randomly join us.
Agreed!
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I didn’t really understand your question. If it was, Why are Christians against abortion if the baby goes to heaven? Then the answer is, God does not want us to kill the innocent to “send” them to Heaven. If this were a good thing to do, then Christians would be killing all good people just to send them to Heaven. God has never condoned the killing of innocent people in order to send them to Heaven. God said, “Thou shalt not kill.” This law is not only for the born but also the ones yet to be born. He wants all of His children to live to know love and serve Him in this world and live forever with Him in the next. He also wants His children baptized into eternal life. Those that suffer abortion are deprived of baptism and do not enjoy the beatific vision. Catholics believe those that are aborted are in a place with no suffering and peace but are still deprived of Heaven and so this is all the more reason to be against abortion.
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Thanks for taking the time to comment and explain the Catholic point of view. I hadn’t realised you believe the god you follow would essentially punish beings who through no fault of their own are unable to experience conscious thought on Earth. I think it’s safe to say the Catholic conception of the Christian deity is quite cruel and unjust. I’m still left wondering what the Protestant objection is, as I don’t think they share your belief on baptism.
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I think you misunderstood a little. Babies who are killed before birth are not in a place of punishment. They only know peace after death. God is merciful so we know that He has the innocent babies in His special care. They are not in a place of suffering or pain. This is something we really should not worry too much about because we know God is merciful and loving. Baptism though is essential for entrance into heaven. There are three forms of baptism. Baptism by water. Baptism by blood. (Which unborn babies killed by abortion may fall under, we just don’t know) and Baptism by desire.( Which is when if you intend to be baptized but happen to die before the baptism by water has actually happened.)
Something else I would like to add as to why Christians are against abortion if the babies go to Heaven question…..Is, it is not only a crime against the innocent baby but it also hurts the mother. The act of killing her child stains her soul with an immortal sin that will damn her to hell if she does not repent of the evil action of ending her baby’s life. That is why we pray for a conversion of hearts and a reparation of sin. I pray that all those who have had an abortion, will seek forgiveness and mercy from God. So that they have a chance for peace not only in this life but in the next.
You can read more about the Churches teaching on baptism here: http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-necessity-of-baptism
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Why is baptism required? God is an intelligent entity. Does the purity of heart and desire to be with God not suffice? Is God really bounded by what he can do? or does he truly not want someone in heaven unless they were dipped in water? Should a gift, so glorious as I am sure you believe it is, be withheld from someone who did not do a specific symbolic act?
Second, what are your thoughts on miscarriages?
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Thanks again for taking the time to clarify your beliefs. I would echo some of the questions that michael2232 is asking, as I’m not clear how an all-knowing god would require medieval sounding rituals to have an opinion on the worthiness or character of a human he’s supposed to have created. There’s a lot I’d like to ask you based on what you’ve said, but I’m sure you wouldn’t have the time to go into it all. On a most basic level, it strikes me that a merciful and loving god would be unable to damn anyone to eternal suffering, least of all women who have faced extremely difficult circumstances and choices in their earthly existence.
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The doctrine of Limbo is a theological construct, without basis in Revelation and without deep roots in tradition, which is why the Catholic Church has been progressively abandoning the notion for decades. http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0702216.htm
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(Otherwise known as making it all up as they go along ……)
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Well, it is good to point out what the Church is currently teaching. The problem of unbaptised babies is an old one that has had different answers through the years. Limbo looks like a hypothesis of medieval speculative theology that got taken too seriously for too long.
And to be fair, Catholic (and Orthodox) core doctrine has generally been consistent with itself since the early ecumencial councils.
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Yes, well they’re not completely stupid. Similarly no-one’s tried to rewrite the Bible – they just shift interpretation and emphasis to suit the circumstance. Want a crusade? God says kill! Want to control women? God says don’t kill cell clusters. Want to exploit the workers? God says slavery is fine. Want to fit in with current societal moral values? God says slavery is repugnant. Obviously ‘God’ and ‘The Church’ are interchangeable for the purposes of Catholic teachings.
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The pro-forced birth crowd are muddled in many ways.
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There’s little logic to their position. Their god apparently doesn’t want people having sex outside of marriage – it’s clearly against the idea of random kids being born in the first place. But I’m sure in strictly logical terms based on their beliefs, it’s a win-win situation for any human ‘soul’ that doesn’t have to face consciousness and pain but gets to spend an eternity in heaven. (Although apparently the Catholic god doesn’t let them in because a priest didn’t splash water on their head before their potential life didn’t develop – now that would make sense!)
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Jesus (in the Gospel of the Egyptians) is not only against sex, but women altogether. You’re “error,” apparently, and cause all of our (men’s) grief.
I wonder why that gospel didn’t make the grade in the final edit run?
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Probably pure chance. Bet they did eeny, meeny, miny, moe with a pile of dusty volumes.
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What a wonderful image!
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Speaking of wonderful images, just choked on my hot chocolate when I read your recent words on another page: ‘They’re always grabbing their junk.’ It just … doesn’t have … the artistic turn of your usual gushings!
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Yeah, it’s hard to put poetry to a man standing by the side of the road, package firmly in hand, chatting away….
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BTW, you’ll love Crimes. She’s a mischievous gem.
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Yeah, I remember her from before. She’s frightening and writes excellent posts that wham every one of her targets. I’m usually too afraid to comment. 🙂
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Ah, couldn’t remember if Crimes popped up before or just after your sabbatical in the Tibetan caves.
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It’s a good point though – any recommendations for me that you’ve come across recently?
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Not really. Nothing “lurk worthy.”
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Not for lurking, got enough of those to be getting on with. Any good new blogs worth keeping up with?
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(do you ever sleep??)
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Like a baby.
Inspired by the divine is funny. He managed to piss of both the creationists AND the atheist communities in one post. War by Other Means is really well written.
http://caseyoliviamarie.wordpress.com/page/2/
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I actually just posted on this topic in some ways with a video from George Carlin on the Sanctity of life, the primary argument from most Christians in my experience.
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That is totally hilarious! I don’t know who George Carlin is, so I was expecting some dry rambling from an old man about the Sanctity of Life … couldn’t have been more wrong! Excellent points and made me cry laughing.
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I’m glad you enjoyed it 🙂
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Here’s another question worth asking, what do Christians believe about sperm? if they believe that each sperm holds life than any christian family that has had sex has killed millions of lives for the production of 1. If they believe that sperm does not contain life, why is masturbation wrong if it’s no more important than snot?
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My understanding is that they believe the potential human life that kicks into action when a sperm and egg meet, and the full DNA code is generated, has a ‘soul’ dumped into it and is therefore essentially of equal value to fully formed human being outside the womb. So sperm on it’s own doesn’t contain a soul. However, the act required to self-produce sperm comes under the banner of lust … and we all know their god doesn’t like sex for pleasure (outside of man-woman marriage sex for babies).
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Indeed, he is very specific about the kind of sex he wants to watch
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