an imaginary exercise for all christians
I’ve stated on many an occasion that it’s very difficult to perform a self-extraction from indoctrinated belief. If the notion of an all-powerful, invisible protector has been a big part of your upbringing, your spongy brain will have laid pathways to protective super-beings that can likely never be repaved.
So, for anyone who has concluded that the Bible is rambling pile of contradictory and hateful, misogynistic nonsense intertwined with some common sense empathy-driven rules for peaceful societies, but still has the deep feeling that the god God must exist, I have developed this little exercise to test out the reality base of your neural pathway to faith.
Imagine there is a benevolent pink dragon seated beyond the clouds who created you and loves you very much. See Dragon the dragon in your mind’s eye. Dragon the dragon will always look after you, and as well as creating you, has undergone serious sacrifices to ensure that your own personal failings won’t lead to your ultimate downfall. When you die, Dragon the dragon will take you an eternal afterlife of love and peace, vaguely described but beyond your wildest dreams of happiness.
Sound good? If that fills the same hole as your longing for the god God, there’s a chance that any imaginary object will do the trick.
(If you don’t like dragons, try the same exercise with horses or dolphins. Only use something human-shaped as a last resort.)
I hope you have enough believers to provide us with interesting answers to this experiment
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Indeed! They’re stopping by in their hundreds …
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I have a personal relationship with Dragon, you couldn’t possibly understand.
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I hope you’re not mocking Dragon, she has a nasty bite and can be very jealous.
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Mocking? I’m relinquishing all moral autonomy to S/H/IT 😉
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If you keep this up I’ll get no genuine feedback from genuine Christians on how they feel about Dragon. 🙂
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Does that mean i have to take off my lizard costume and sit at the back of the room, in silence?
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Yes, but as a mark of respect you may keep on your red shoes.
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I felt an unusually warm breeze one day and that was when I knew Dragon had to be the one real and true Dragon. That warm breeze had to be the very breath of Dragon.
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Exactly! I was praying for a parking space at the supermarket and one appeared right before me. It was the work of Dragon, no question!
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Dragon is ah-may-zing!
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Dragon told me I am special. Dragon knows my heart. I need Dragon to feel good about myself and to remind me of my worthlessness. Without Dragon, I am nothing and my righteousness is as filthy rags. Dragon makes it hurt so good.
Praise be to Dragon.
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Ouch, that was too real. My righteousness is as filthy rags …
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http://www.wcnc.com/news/iteam/How-Elevation-Church-Pastor-Furtick-produce-spontaneous-baptism-246072001.html
You will like this one.
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Excellent! Thanks for the link. You have no idea what bad childhood memory this brings back for me. It’s confusing sitting through a motivational preacher telling you Jesus loves you and even if you thought you were a Christian you weren’t till this moment and you have to put your hand up for the spirit to enter you (or something) but then when it comes to the crunch and my siblings were laughing at me thankfully I didn’t follow those 15 other volunteers down the aisle. Something like that anyway. I also tried to burn some of my science fiction and fantasy books after another visiting preacher convinced me they were evil. I was very impressionable! Anyway, reminds of that swell of emotion you get in a crowd, which is why I hate getting involved in large demonstrations.
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I wonder if you intended this post as an answer to mine of the same day- you might not have read it. If I choose to give significance to walking into my living room for my morning meditation, so that it becomes a religious act, that seems only gain- at least until I start telling others what to do. Or giving small children pictures of myself to colour in, saying God gives authority: http://matthewpaulturner.com/2014/02/19/this-is-what-stevenfurtick-is-teaching-the-kiddos/
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Not an answer to you, I didn’t understand your post and tend to leave your religious ones well alone unless they have a link to some to investigate. Speaking of which, I think my comment to the Orthodox heretic-callers mustn’t have made it past moderation. This post was ‘inspired’ by anaivethinker’s declaration that he’s a reconvert after being an atheist for 6 years. I wondered if the brain habit was an explanation. I think Furtick must be keen to start a personal cult based around his greatness, and nice haircut. 🙂
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I’m a theist and I’ll partake in your exercise. I tried it and I simply cannot make this dragon fantasy into a belief about reality. It seems that my brain is incapable of forcing what is clearly a fantasy to become a belief about reality. That is the distinction between dragons and God and also Santa Claus and God or whatever else we could insert.
Regarding indoctrination, it might take a born skeptic to extract one’s self (got the spelling right this time :D) from indoctrination. But, it’s easy to believe in God. It’s hardwired into us according to results from evolutionary psychology. Actually, what seems to be hardwired into us is a capacity and tendency to believe in gods. Now, the highest of these, sharpened by tradition plus or minus revelation, is God, the creator of existence itself. The lesser beings would be like spirit ancestors, angels, demons, demigods, and so on.
I hope this is making sense. I think your thought experiment is a good idea. Let me know if I can clarify or expand on my perspective here.
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Hmm, that’s interesting. Maybe if the invisible friend/god space in the brain is already occupied, anything else seems ridiculous. I certainly find that Dragon fulfils the same function in terms of happy chemicals that the god God once did. I agree that the desire for this kind of company comes as part of the human package, but do you think it’s just a simple desire for the extension of parenting? The similarities in characteristics are too exact to be dismissed: loving, forgiving, disciplining, omnipresent, reliable, powerful, intelligent, personal, sacrificing, dedicated, creator, providing structure.
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I couldn’t agree more. I have looked for a YT video that I saw around 2 years ago and thought I had saved it to my favorites, but couldn’t find it. The video starts off with a guy searching for truth, and he tries all these religions, from one extreme to the other. There is this cord attached to him, and stairs that go up to a throne of sorts, but you can’t really tell it’s a throne at the beginning, nor can you can’t see who’s sitting on the throne until the end of the video. The man goes through all the motions, like you see in traditional religions and spiritual practices, and slowly makes his way up the heavenly stairs with the cord gradually changing color and shape. As he reaches the top, it’s his mother sitting on the throne. The cord was an umbilical cord.
Having once been a very devote Christian, with a deep faith in God, and then to be on the other side of the fence so to speak, has given me a unique perspective about belief, as it has clearly done with you. But, here’s the kicker. I got involved with independent brain research before I opened my neurotechnology business. The reason I did was because I learned that when using neurotechnology and meditative type practices, I could induce the exact same sensations of God, including insight about things I normally didn’t think about. This was before I had discovered Dr. Michael Persinger’s work and experiments, as well as Dr. Todd Murphy’s.
So, if there is a God, he, she, it doesn’t care if we believe in he/she/it or not. You get the exact same benefits when you apply neurotechnology or meditate. IMO, belief is a placebo to well being — and very adaptive. It’s a way to tap into the pleasure centers of the brain and get rewarded. People who have very low dopamine, as in having hypo-dopaminergic disorders, tend to be the least religious and spiritually orientated. Coincidence? I don’t think so. Basically, if there’s no dopamine, there’s no incentive to believe. No dopamine reward, no incentive to procreate. No dopamine, no incentive to eat. No dopamine, no incentive to be motivated.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16439158
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Magnetic Neural Stimulation:
“Several studies have pointed to the possibility that neural stimulation using low-intensity complex magnetic signals can induce a class of experience termed religious, mystic, or spiritual ( 18, 19, 20, 5 ). Other studies have found that repeated stimulation can have positive emotional effects (1 ). For our purposes, we’ll treat spirituality as a trait definable as ‘the propensity to enter (reported) altered states of consciousness, including positive affective and cognitive components, as well as motivating adaptive behavior.
Shakti’s session design posits that repeated, simultaneous stimulation of the left amygdala (associated with positive affect) and the right hippocampus (associated with a positive cognitive style) will, over time, raise the baseline activity of these two structures, allowing a positive emotive and cognitive style for individuals, possibly by entraining their neuroanatomical substrates with each other. This is postulated to be within the range of personality alterations described popularly as ‘Spiritual Transformation’.”
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IMO, God equals electromagnetic fields that create abnormal electrical activity in the brain, which can create hallucinations and also stimulate parts of the brain not normally stimulated in everyday life. This can also occur with naturally or artificially occurring infrasound, and when the sun spits out an earth directed solar flare, a.k.a coronal mass ejection, causing geomagnetic storms in our atmosphere, thus increasing electrical activity in the brain. There’s significant evidence that there are increased psychiatric admissions hospitals during these storms, as well as increased seizure activity and hospital admissions.
I’ll share that source in my next post so it doesn’t get flagged as spam.
Btw, Joseph Smith found the golden tablets (no one ever saw except himself) and had religious visions during a meteor storm. There was a huge religious revival that swept America after the Leonid meteor storm in 1833. Coincidence? Oh, I have so much more I could share on this. My apologies if this seemed a little OT, but I though it complimented your reply to anaevethinker.
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Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2012623 (Solar Winds and Hallucinations)
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It takes some time to read through your comments. Really interesting, and I particularly love the detail about Joseph Smith! We’re such fragile, silly creatures but at least we can investigate ourselves.
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Quite true, and our brains are subject to the environment in all that that entails. Violet, thank you for taking the time to read. I apologize that my posts tend to be lengthy and resource rich, but I have no doubt that you have lurkers, and if any of this info is helpful in answering some of their own questions, then I am willing to invest the time posting it. Thanks again.
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Post away! It’s all about thinking things through, and you have interesting thoughts. (And a product to sell?)
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A product to sell? I no more have a product to sell than you do. 😉
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Violet, I’ve been racking my brain trying to figure out why you would make such an assumption.. For the record, I am not associated with Persinger or Murphy, but their research is valuable, and therefore I use it. I posted that information to make a point, which was related to what anaievethinker said about being hardwired to believe in god. As indicated with some of the information I posted, believing in god is adaptive. If you get rewarded for something, you are going to repeat the behavior. Another point I was trying to make was that you can use artificial stimulation or you can, for example, get zapped by naturally occurring electromagnetic fields in your environment and have a ‘god’ experience, as well as experience changed behavior such as overcoming death anxiety. I hope that clarifies.
My intentions here are honorable.
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I’m not a in the field of neurotheology or evolutionary psychology but last I heard, Persinger’s results could not be replicated very well. His work remains controversial. Evolutionary psychology seems to point to a more general picture about how belief in God develops and persists having to with the general belief that other minds exist. There does not seem to be substantial evidence for a God area of the brain like there is a motor strip and Broca’s area. Also, the claim that belief in God is adaptive is controversial. A more general claim is that religion is adaptive and even this is controversial.
As a theist I don’t say this because I have a stake in these controversies. I’m more interested in good science and the field of evolutionary psychology seems to be putting out good science compared to neurotheology regarding belief in God.
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Thanks for your reply. Last I heard, Persinger’s protocol was not followed. Also, Persinger used a Faraday cage like chamber which screens out EM pollution, and according to reports, the Swedish study did not. Also, I question the ‘double blind’ nature of this study. The Swedish studied told the subjects (direct quote from the Swedish study):
“The project had been approved by the ethics committees at the medical faculties of Uppsala University and Lund University. In accordance with the guidelines from the committees, presumptive participants were informed that the project was about the influence of complex, weak magnetic fields on experiences and feeling states.”
Persinger told his subjects that they were involved in a relaxation experiment, so I question this suggestibility accusation. Also, I have experienced this phenomena personally during brainwave training sessions which are now recognized by the scientific community and utilized in medical clinics to help patients with neurological disorders and depression. But I also witnessed it from others who had sessions, and it came about quite by accident. When I researched for explanations regarding this phenomena, I came across Persinger’s research. But you don’t have to be zapped by waveforms, or entrain to artificial frequencies to experience the sensed presence effect. There are many causes.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-sensed-presence-effect/
I’ll followup on your other comments in another post.
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Cont.
Regarding evolutionary psychology — do you believe this assumption? “Human males evolved to have “rape modules”. There are many skeptics of evolutionary psychology with the scientific community. Their methodologies are in question.
“Evolutionary psychology postulates that the mind is shaped by pressure to survive and reproduce. We jealously guard romantic partners and cherish our closest relatives above all others, lest we fail to pass on our genes.”
http://www.psychologytoday.com/basics/evolutionary-psychology
But I am curious: what EP studies prompted you to use EP as a way of confirming your belief in God? If the only reason we are here is to screw and pass on our genes, and If the reason we are nice to our closest relatives is to pass on our genes, I don’t understand where God comes into the picture. Do you need a belief in God to be nice to your relatives — to insure your genes will be passed on?
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Correction: *ensure
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First of all, thanks for such engaging replies. Regarding Persinger, I do not think that the scientific community has embraced them with much confidence. I’m not dismissing the results though; Persinger may be stimulating a sort of transcendent feeling that is common among religious experience, from Christianity to Buddhism. Is “God” a transcendent feeling? Well, not to me, at least it’s not completely congruent with my belief. But, I think there is something to EM waves acting on neural circuits.
“What EP studies prompted you to use EP as a way of confirming your belief in God?”
This is a great question. EP studies and theories are fascinating and informative, but I don’t think they have any bearing on whether God exists. The main reason is because evolution-generated belief may be part of the design. Indeed, a Creator can tweek the initial conditions of the universe to evolve sentient creatures that have a propensity to believe in the Creator. I’m using the word “can” here because it’s logically possible, I am certainly not arguing for the existence of God. The interesting thing about this kind of logic is that it follows that non-creators are not connected to beliefs about their existence. In other words, this logic threatens the existence of angels, demons, ghosts, etc. I find this intellectually attractive.
“Do you need a belief in God to be nice to your relatives – to insure your genes will be passed on?”
No, not at all. Although, sociological studies show that religious people tend to procreate more, but IMHO belief in God is not necessary for morality, both evolutionarily and philosophically.
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“but IMHO belief in God is not necessary for morality, both evolutionarily and philosophically.”
That’s a rare mindset for someone affiliated with Christianity. Where I live (the Bible Belt) you would not be considered a ‘real’ Christian. Non-believers are a threat to believers placebo effect. They need lots of people to believe so that it enhances their faith. I have no problem with those who chose to believe in god. It’s the negative side-effects (belief at the expense of others), and there are many.
I do wish more Christians were like you. Benign. Thanks so much for your feedback. Oh, and one more note, thank you for participating on forums regarding the belief in demons. That was the reason why I got into religious debate in the first place…because of the enormous harm this belief causes. People who posted were so scared and it grieved me.
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Apologies if I offended, I hope I haven’t put you off, your contributions to the discussions are fascinating. I’m just confused by anyone contributing so much information to the discussion when it’s not for the sake of argument (the usual motivation here).
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Thanks Violent. For the sake of argument or discourse? I enjoy discourse and I thought that’s what we were engaged in. Ultimately what triggered it for me was what anaivethinker wrote:
Neuronotes, I’m very sorry for your tragedy and for your husband’s experience. I can see that this topic is deeply personal to you, and I hope I will approach it with care. It pains me to see Christians, my own people, abusing the minds of the suffering. It’s unconscionable and intolerable, a sickening form of tyranny.
Regarding belief in demons, when I first joined a forum on the internet years ago, I got in a debate about the existence of demons. I took the stance that demons do not exist. It seems evident that the ancient people attributed neuropsychiatric illness to demons. The best counterargument was that Jesus seemed to believe in demons, even talking to them. Now, the key here is that Jesus “seemed” to believe. We don’t actually know. In fact, it makes sense to me that Jesus would pick his battles about how to impact beliefs and culture, and the widespread belief in demons was simply not on Jesus’ radar. Jesus had a specific agenda and he was willing to operate from within cultural assumptions to transform his followers with a specific message.
And, regarding the points you made in your last paragraph, I find myself in agreement with you. The genesis of beliefs is complex and certainly genes, neuroanatomy, culture, peers, and psychology play a role in their development and adoption.
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@ anaivethinker, thank you so much for your kind words of compassion. My apologies for the delay in response. I’ve had limited spare time lately. This is just a note to let you know I’ll address your comments when I have more time. Hopefully, later today, this evening, if not tomorrow.
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Oh crap — sorry that turned out so long in such a tiny space.
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My sincere apologies for misspelling your name. I’m so used to writing the term ‘violent’ because of the nature of discourse I’m often involved in. I should have proofed.
*Violet
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Wow, what a terrible experience! I’ll have a read through your post.
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Yeah, it was, and a common belief and practice, sadly. I need to make another apology to anaivethinker as I just noticed that I also misspelled his name. No offense was intended..
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“. . . do you think it’s just a simple desire for the extension of parenting?” This is what Freud concluded about belief in God. However, I am skeptical that belief in God is entirely driven by any sort of desire whether it’s desire for positive emotion or for a father figure or future justice, afterlife, etc. Belief in God is produced by the brain, not necessarily stemming from a desire, but from the belief-forming faculties. Let me explain further based on what I know. A developing child at some point naturally forms beliefs about the world and one of these is that there are other minds existing in the world. It’s only a simple step to go to invisible minds (ghosts, spirits, etc.). Then, it’s not hard to go to a mind that has power and agency in the world (gods, angels, demons). Then, it’s not hard to go to the supreme God.
Secondly, we have the tendency to interpret agency. One example is from a psych experiment in which kids were asked why is this rock sharp? They tend to answer from the perspective that there is a purpose in the rock being sharp such as, “The rock is sharp so that animals don’t sit on it.” Not from the perspective of blind chance like, “The rock is sharp from random geological and weather processes over thousands of years.” The propensity to see agency and to belief in invisible minds and maybe even other natural faculties endowed by evolution congeal to form belief in God.
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I missed this comment about where belief stems from. I’m intrigued – although we see different primary reasons for believing in gods, you do find natural reasons for us to believe in gods (other than that any gods exist). Does that not concern you? Also you’re very precisely mentioning the god you believe in, instead of generalising about the (surely) millions of other gods that people have invented as a result of these conditions. Wouldn’t it be more correct to say these factor congeal to for a belief in supernatural entities and gods? Only the people who are told by other people about your god God, come to the conclusion that your god God exists.
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It doesn’t concern me because I don’t think it answers the question of God either way. Evolutionary psychology is neutral. I agree with all you say about specifying God from all other gods and how it does rely on tradition. That’s why it’s important for this tradition to be linked to divine revelation. Of course, we cannot know what is or isn’t divine revelation, we must believe or not believe, following assessment.
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