scratching our itches
In a recent post, I suggested that in order to cure the world of violence, we should discuss the obvious solution of offering chemical castration to all men. This post met with little support or interest, probably because we are afraid to tamper with our natural animal chemicals. Or are we?
More than 100 million women in the world use the contraceptive pill. That means they artificially fiddle with the chemicals in their bodies in order to control when they become pregnant. If family planning via chemical control is deemed to be a way to improve living conditions for humans, why isn’t chemical castration for men? Probably simply because we call it that ball-shrinking term ‘castration’.
what’s good for the goose should be good for the gander
So, let’s a take step back and call this potential intervention ‘a long acting reversible hormonal anti-violence therapy’. Because the same hormones that are used for birth control, are used for chemical castration, or should I say the anti-violence therapy. If society deems these hormones fit for voluntary family planning in women, why would society have a problem with men voluntarily taking these hormones to solve the problem of global violence?
assuaging the fears of the gander
Men are clearly afraid of what life would be like if they weren’t thinking about or having sex on a regular basis. I can appreciate this fear but hope everyone will agree that we have reached a stage in the evolution of our species where we realise that the animal urge to breed is no longer necessary: it is evolutionarily defunct. The urge to breed in today’s society serves as much logical purpose as the urge to eat a whole chocolate cake in one sitting.
a wise woman once said
It’s delicious to scrach an itch, but if the itch isn’t there
You feel no urge to scratch, and you don’t miss the itch
Quick question: In what way does the contraceptive pill impede a woman’s ability to have sex?
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Oh, good question.
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Why’s that relevant? I’m talking about ridding the world of violence, not an unnecessary animal urge. I mentioned the contraceptive pill to show that women make a choice to amend their natural chemical ebbs and flows in the name of improving society.
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And THAT’S the best solution you can come up with? I’m thinking, “Back to the drawing board” might be a good strategy —
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Why? I don’t see anyone else coming up with better suggestions. Most violence is committed by men; most of that violence is because of testosterone; testosterone can be controlled with drugs. It’s a pretty good solution from where I’m standing.
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Not nearly as relevant, as “Do most men commit violence?”
Have you any stats on that, as opposed to how much is custom and tradition, how much is patterning, self-defense, how much is poverty- and social-instability-related, etc.? I’d love to see that breakdown —
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I have never once had the urge to force my sexual mores on anyone, or haul off and beat the crap out of them either, so why on earth would I volunteer for such a procedure?
Let’s see you find one ”normal” volunteer as your guinea pig ..
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Yes, I guess there will be a cut-off age after which it will have little relevance. Thanks for pointing that out. 🙂
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Pointing what out? I said I have never had the urge to beat the crap out of a woman….or, in truth,anyone since the days of the playground at school, and only then under severe provocation.
Nobody touched my Marmite sandwiches.
Your comment is like asking that old canard, “Have you stopped beating you wife yet?”
Maybe these posts are meant to be tongue in somewhere but you’re pushing it….
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Calm down grumpy pants. Men are so touchy about common sense suggestions. Every man is not violent until he is, and that’s why the Committee agreed it would be best practice for all men be approached. It’s voluntary, so you don’t have take part if you don’t think it will solve the problem of global violence.
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I think, therein, lies a big problem with the suggestion. It is voluntary. My ex had violent temper and I highly doubt he’d line up for this voluntary castration.
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I meant to say that next, Ruth – the truly violent would laugh at the idea!
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The very ones we would want to volunteer would be the very ones who would run far, far away from it.
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It’s not my pants that are grumpy, it’s just that reading such nonsense makes my false teeth ache so much – probably from grinding them.
Can’t we back to bashing the Catlicks, please?
Did you see the recent statement from your favorite Crossdresser ,Pope Wotsisface, on pedophile priests?
Ooooh, what a naughty boy he is..truly.
Now there’s a bloke that needs a swift belt alongside the ear.
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Actually, Ark, as I recall, Vi mentioned something to that effect in an earlier comment, which is why I’m not taking any of this too seriously.
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Lovely blue in that flower. Would it be so pronounced if it were castrated and had no desire to have sex?
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Can’t say, but your balls would never be that color again!
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Would it and its type stop committing acts of violence (with the irrelevant side-effect of not wanting sex) if it took anti-violence therapy?
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I can’t help wondering why you would find the side-effect of not wanting sex, irrelevant.
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It’s hardly an irrelevant side-effect. I’m no breeder and generally lament any more humans on the planet messing things up even further, but i understand the necessity of others to perform that dance.
If its testosterone you’d like to curtail, then curtail testosterone. Hell, i’d take a contraceptive pill if one was available.
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Someone has a picture up I think you will enjoy…have a squizz
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Wow! Looks like a sparrow dipped in crazy sparkle-paint! You really need to plant some more flowers they like and lurk round your garden more often, instead of your computer. 🙂
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Look who’s talking. 😉
I actually have these plants -the Monbretias in quite a lot of places around the garden.
They are bulbous indigenous flowers and come up of their own accord.
I have never seen a Sunbird alight on one.
And if you read the dialogue between Herman and I you’ll see he mentions they’ve been scarce at his spot too.
He’s down in Cape Town and I’m up in Jo’burg, as you know.
That’s around 1400km between cities.
Oh, and he has a swish telephoto lens, which, sadly, Ems does not have on her Nikon.
Maybe I should dig out my old Olympus OM10?
Now, that I have a telephoto for….
I’m going to find a nice Kylie Minogue song to close off and disappear for the night….insomnia notwithstanding, of course.
Nite nite, you mad thing.. 🙂
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Do you genuinely have problems sleeping? Poor thing, no wonder you get so angry. 🙂 Sleep tight.
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yes I do…now stop nagging me I am trying to find a decent song…
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Go cheesy – losing my religion.
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I don’t know about any other women. I can only speak for myself. I will not volunteer my husband for, nor do I wish him to volunteer for, this…um…experiment. I have also been in an abusive relationship and I still don’t want my husband to partake in this. I have taken the pill. It never decreased my libido. That is what it would do to a man; not to mention giving him man boobs, not to mention the cardiovascular side effects.
” I can appreciate this fear but hope everyone will agree that we have reached a stage in the evolution of our species where we realise that the animal urge to breed is no longer necessary: it is evolutionarily defunct.”
If breeding were the only function of sex I might agree. It is also about intimacy and I rather enjoy that with my spouse.
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Yeah, I haven’t quite convinced mine it’s a good idea either, but I enjoy the interesting reaction to the suggestion. Logically, there’s no reason for it not to be considered (although I can see that Neuronotes has posted lots of reasons I need to look at). Like I said on the last post, it’s just a bit of a feminist musing – when women have inherent problems, we’re quick to look for the medical cure, yet this inherent problem that almost exclusively male is never addressed in the same way. I also love that people can’t separate the pleasure we evolutionarily require from sex, from identity.
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I find that an odd statement too – why can’t they be separate, yet both valued?
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“yet this inherent problem that almost exclusively male”
Only on the surface. Again, it’s a cultural problem, not a male problem. As many women abuse and kill their children (I think it may be more) than men. This does not have to do with the fact that they are female. There are side-effects to forcing women to have more children than they can take care of, hormonal imbalances involved too that can cause a woman to not bond with her child. Also, throughout recorded history, men have generally been head of their household which exacerbated the problem. Another note: had women had as much freedom to abuse their power as men did (and do), and exposed to conditions that cause excessive dopamine, they would mostly likely be just as ruthless and violent.
We also have comprehensive studies regarding adverse childhood experiences which can lead to social ills. Some of the findings are:
>> Adoption of health-risk behaviors
>> Disease, disability and social problems
>> Social, emotional, and cognitive impairment
http://www.cdc.gov/ace/pyramid.htm
But I really do appreciate you being open-minded about looking at some of the information. This is a great topic to explore.
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Good point. I’ve seen women down here in Brazil go absolutely apeshit-crazy-violent on men, and on each other. In many ways the women are more manly here than the men.
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*nods*
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I’m not sure if ‘allowed’ — except for the fact that women are at a great disadvantage because they have to give birth, and throughout history, pregnancy and giving birth meant a very good chance of health complications and death. Not to mention the recovery time, so women had to be depended on their mates for resources at least up to a year to four years to insure the survival of their offspring. That’s why we get rewarded, neurochemically to pair-bond, but then it wanes after a year, yet can be sustained if someone works very, very, very hard at it. 😀
But you opened up another can of worms. Women were also at a physical disadvantage. In certain species of primates, males and females are the same size and both equally tend to their young. They are also generally peaceful in nature.
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Sorry about the typos. Get used to it. I suck at proofing — if I do proof. 😉
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I think maybe one of the reasons that the stats are skewed is because men tend not to report incidents of being abused by females.
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I can’t see a lot of men saying, “My wife beat me up!”
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Exactly! Or, I got raped. It just goes unreported.
A lot of male on female violence goes unreported as well, but not nearly to the degree that female violence on men does.
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“A lot of male on female violence goes unreported as well, but not nearly to the degree that female violence on men does.”
Yes, exactly, which is a cultural issue — and it’s taboo to be a ‘pussy’. I hate that word when used to demean women ‘and’ men, but you get my point.
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I do get your point. Not many men want to be seen as pansies. Not only that, they’re typically supposed to be stronger than women, so if they got beat up by one it looks like they can’t take care of themselves, when the real issue is they don’t want to hurt the woman – even though she’s perpetuated to violence.
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Nailed it. A guy won’t get the credit for being non-violent — or trying to resolve without the use of violence. No, he will most likely be mocked. There is a disdain in this country and most cultures for any male who doesn’t fit the social norms of what it means to be a masculine. Woman are just as guilty for encouraging this expectation as men. But again, this is a cultural problem.
“heterosexism is not just a personal value system, it is a tool in the maintenance of gender dichotomy. In other words, through heterosexism, any male who refuses to accept the dominant culture’s assignment of appropriate masculine behavior is labeled early on as a “sissy” or “fag” and then subjected to bullying.”
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/assault/roots/franklin.html
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Good observation.
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How many of those men whose wives go ape-shit-crazy on them do you think are reporting it?
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Oh, I had one actually shoot at me once, because I tend to walk away when an argument gets too heated, and in this case, got in the car and drove off.
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Yikes! And when a gun is pulled is about the only time when culture would deem it “socially acceptable” for a man to call the pole.
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Nah, I knew she couldn’t shoot her way out of a paper bag. The safest place in the world to be, was right in front of her.
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Even blind hogs find acorns.
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LOL
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I would have to see the stats on that — 🙂
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LOL — do you live in conservative country too? Think Sarah Palin. *shivers*
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This one could have given Palin lessons in Redneck 101!
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Oh my — you poor dear. I do think you took a risk being in front of her, especially after that last comment. 😀
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That was also the safest place to stand when she threw things.
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LOL Arch — I laugh because of your delivery, but not at the violence situation. I’m sorry you experienced this, and glad you escaped alive.
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Thanks, I’ll be here all week – tell your friends —
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You welcome — I’ll be here all week too — tell your friends. 😉
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Unless, of course, Ark gets me thrown off, like he did on “Fluid Theology!” Ask him about that ! Ask him who was the “good one“!!
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Oy — I think I’ll stay out of that drama. Nothing personal — I know nothing. Nevertheless, I’m glad you’re still here.
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Well, if you know that skinny-faced Pharaoh, the rest goes without saying —
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It’s not reported because they think they can stop it at any moment, but don’t (physically do it) for fear of inflaming an already bad situation. There isn’t the same type of “mortal danger” which is present if its the other way around. That is, of course, if there aren’t weapons involved. Can’t ignore ego in this menu, either. Sounds (culturally) awful if you have to admit “My wife/girlfriend beat the living shit out of me” 😦
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I hadn’t thought of the mortal danger aspect of it. Violence and abuse are violence and abuse no matter whose hand it comes from. But, yeah, most times a man could kill a woman with one blow if he was a mind to.
It is definitely culturally taboo for a man to admit such things, even if it’s because he just stood there and took it.
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Which brings me to another point – why, throughout history, have women allowed men to have such power? Do they share none of the culpability? There’s strength in numbers.
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“why, throughout history, have women allowed men to have such power?”
Is it a case of allowing? Always physically weaker and until birth control was available most women were pregnant or mothering throughout adult life. Also, we’re operating in world of power structures built by men. It’s a long climb to equality and we’ve only just started, although the last 100 years have seen vast change.
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“Also, we’re operating in world of power structures built by men.” – all structures begin with a first block, “the hand that rocks the cradle, rules the world.”
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As a result of an accident I lost both testicles and, if it weren’t for testosterone replacement therapy, I’d experience all of the above plus osteoporosis and depression.As it stands, now,,I am all man, except for the fact that I’m sporting an empty sack. I’m sure it will please you to know that the surgeon who performed the bi-lateral orchiectomy (castration) was a woman. Something of a specialist in male physiology, she’d performed in the order of 400.such operations. She was very professional, except that she used vernacular when describing testicles and scrotums. “I’m not going to cut your sack. What we do is make an incisions above your pubic bone and pull your balls out through those holes.” She said castration a lot.
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Violet, I started to comment on your last post when you published it, and my first thought was ‘band aide’. I also got a bad feeling in the pit of my stomach because it makes the assumption that all men are violent, or that maleness is the cause of our unstable societies. While testosterone does play a role, castration is definitely not the solution to curtailing violence in the world. For one, we have to address cultures that promotes excessive dopamine – hyper-masculine behavior and acceptance of it, and the hierarchical structure that can leave young males without a mate, such as practicing polygamy, especially in religions. This is an extremely comprehensive topic, so what I share doesn’t even scratch the surface, but here are a few things that come to mind.
In his book “The Winner Effect: How Power Can Affect Your Brain, he wrote:
“Power changes the brain triggering increased testosterone in both men and women. Testosterone and one of its by-products called 3-androstanediol, are addictive, largely because they increase dopamine in a part of the brain’s reward system called the nucleus accumbens.
But too much power – and hence too much dopamine – can disrupt normal cognition and emotion, leading to gross errors of judgment and imperviousness to risk, not to mention huge egocentricity and lack of empathy for others.”
I think you will find the article “Peace Among Primates” and interesting read, especially the part regarding the Forest Troop baboons under the sub-title Left behind. Tell me if you don’t see similarities of behavior in our own cultures.
http://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/peace_among_primates
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“he” as in Ian Robertson, PhD
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Thanks, that looks really interesting. I’m a bit confused about your claim that curtailing testosterone wouldn’t solve anything, and then providing a quote saying that dopamine is increased due to a by-product of testosterone.
I know what you mean about the feeling in the pit of your stomach. The whole suggestion is wrong somehow, but it some respect it does make sense because it would have a big effect on violence. It has the feel of some horrible Nazi experiment, even though I’ve framed it as a voluntary programme for the good of society. I really just want someone to write a science fiction book about it, and as I can’t write, I’m putting the idea out there! 🙂
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“I’m a bit confused about your claim that curtailing testosterone wouldn’t solve anything, and then providing a quote saying that dopamine is increased due to a by-product of testosterone.
Testosterone is not bad — and neither is dopamine, and both men and women are at risk, but our culture has traditionally kept women from holding much power, with exception of raising children. But chemical castration is certainly not a way to resolve the problem of violence, especially long term.
You may as well suggest a frontal lobotomy if you are going to go that route. 🙂
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We should start everyone that shows signs of a violent power trip on haloperidol. This is what’s done in medicine at least.
I must say reading your comments, Neuronotes, you have an impressive depth of knowledge on the complexity of factors involved in violent behavior. All the way from cultural expectations to neurobiology!
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Hi Brandon,
You wrote: “We should start everyone that shows signs of a violent power trip on haloperidol.”
My first thought was that a person showing signs of violent behavior should have a thorough neurological evaluation, including their history. From the Franklin Institute:
Head Injury Links to Violence:
“Many people attribute violent, antisocial, aggressive behavior to environmental factors such as childhood abuse, but it may surprise you to learn that there can be physical factors as well. Researchers are finding more and more links between violent behavior and brain damage to certain regions of the brain. While no cure is currently available, these eye-opening studies reinforce the need for protection against head injury.”
“Early Brain Damage and Development in Social and Moral Reasoning:
Children who experience early damage in the prefrontal cortex never completely develop social or moral reasoning. As adults, even on an intellectual level, they cannot refer to such behavior because they have little concept of it. In contrast, individuals with adult-acquired damage are usually aware of proper social and moral conduct, but are unable to apply such behaviors.”
“Researchers at the University of Sweden have found the prefrontal cortex to be precisely the area of the brain that is impaired in murderers, rapists, and other violent criminals who repeatedly re-offend.”
Source: http://www.fi.edu/learn/brain/head.html
Given the fact that brain injuries are quite common (approx. every 15 seconds in America), and many cultures (including the U.S.) encourage high risk environments, e.g., contact sports, war, daredevil behavior (especially among guys), etc. I think our lack of awareness about how susceptible the brain is to injury has played a major role in the epidemic of violence.
Also, if women don’t have reproductive rights, and have no choice but to birth baby after baby, that greatly raises the chances for neglect and abuse which can lead to attachment spectrum disorders like RAD. Children in orphanages are very susceptible, too, and tend to experience significant brain atrophy. The risk for antisocial behavior (including violence) in children who are not wanted is high.
Thank you for your thoughtful comment. I really appreciate that. 🙂
Victoria
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Victoria, you are absolutely right about getting a full evaluation. Dopamine antagonists like haloperidol and other antipsychotics probably won’t work on every patient, especially if their dopaminergic system is not involved in their aggressive behavior.
I remember reading about unwanted children and violent crime in Freakonomics. It’s the saddest thing. At a hospital I worked at we saw child abuse too frequently. . . mostly subdural hematomas, but that may not be the most common presentation of child abuse (I’d have to look this one up). There are “safe-haven” laws that basically say a parent can surrender a child to the State’s custody without repercussion. Why would someone not do this and then abuse their children? It pains me.
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Interestingly, the link presented earlier, leading to the article on dopamine, led to yet another article on Oxytocin, in which it is claimed that the Chinese found that with men, most violence occurs between sexual experiences – sex, it would seem, dampens the urge to be violent.
http://www.reuniting.info/science/oxytocin_health_bonding
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Brandon, you wrote: “There are “safe-haven” laws that basically say a parent can surrender a child to the State’s custody without repercussion.”
Based on German hospital records, at least two million German women were raped by the Soviets during World War II. Studies show that a majority appeared to have suffered multiple rapes. About 200,000 children were conceived by native German women raped by Russian soldiers.
Source: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=106687768
That’s just one country during WWII. Then there were “comfort women” where women and girls were forced into a prostitution corps created by the Empire of Japan during WWII. Estimates are as high as 400,000 girls and women. There was no birth control.
Today, there is an epidemic of rape in war-torn countries, such as countries in Africa. And according to very recent reports, there is a crisis in South Africa where women suspected of being lesbians are being raped, too. It’s called ‘corrective rape’ to ‘cure’ lesbians. No birth control is being used. An estimated of 500,000 rape cases take place in the country (South Africa), every year. That’s just one country in Africa. There are also customs in several countries in Africa where women are expect to have as many children as they can because it’s a status symbol for men. Some human rights reports I read showed that women had given birth to as many as 20+ children each.
In Romania during the 70’s and 80’s, under the dictatorship of Nicolae Ceauşescu, both abortion and contraception were forbidden, leading to a rise in birth rates. Women were expected to have at least five children. Quoting from ABC News:
“Young children in straightjackets, groups of mentally disturbed adolescents spending their days in bleak rooms sitting in eerie silence, babies nearly starving to death.
ABC NEWS 20/20 first reported on Romanian orphans in 1990 after a revolution overthrew the communist ruler and uncovered his bizarre plan to force women to have at least five children for the state.
The result was a proliferation of babies in overcrowded inhumane institutions. In one orphanage 20/20 visited in 1990, babies were stacked on the shelves of a cart like loaves of bread. Many babies lie in cribs sucking on propped up bottles with very little human contact.”
That’s just one country here hundreds of thousands of babies and children were left to the state because the poor economy and their caregivers couldn’t afford to raise them. I mentioned in another post regarding one neurological disorder caused by abuse and neglect. Attachment spectrum disorders interfere a child’s ability to form appropriate relationships and feel safe and secure. Manipulation, violence, poor impulse control, and a lack of conscience are just a few of the symptoms that result from this disorder.
I’m only scratching the surface here. Are you seeing the bigger picture?
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I think that’s intolerable, and there’s no sexism here at all when I say that I do not understand why women fail to band together and throw off their burqas. Is the Stockholm Syndrome that heavily ingrained?
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Arch, you wrote: “and there’s no sexism here at all when I say”
And when I say this, there’s no sexism either, but are men so mentally ill that they’ve lost their humanity — so much so that they don’t band together and do something about this problem? Men end up losing respect for women because they think they don’t stand up for themselves, but it’s much more complicated than that. And by making this a women’s problem and their sole responsibility to resolve, the focus is taken off of men. Monkey see, monkey do?
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Some people do things because they’re the right things to do – most people do things because there’s something in it for them.
I have known Middle-Eastern men – atheists, in every case – who are entirely in favor of women’s equality, but are too concerned with attracting attention to themselves and facing an automatic death sentence for apostasy, to do anything about it. As pro-equality as I am, I can’t fault them for this, I simply must applaud the courage it took for them to break away from the herd at all.
You and I can feel free to proclaim our atheism to the world without fear of death – for these guys, death lurks around every corner, not necessarily from their governments, but from their relatives and neighbors in the middle of the night, believing they are doing their god’s will.
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“for these guys, death lurks around every corner”
Exactly — so we can’t point the finger just at women for being ‘weak’ and not banding together. It is so much more complex than that, but the bottom line is that people will do the most inhumane things — influence and create legislation and authoritarian religion to ensure the dopamine keeps flowing, and at the cost of others. If we don’t realize this, and find ways to curtail it, then that really does tell me (us) that humans are no more advanced than their primate cousins.
Case in point — http://youtu.be/PFnAN0Tb-Nc —
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You always come up with the most spot on videos! Possibly then, Vi should be more concerned with curtailing dopamine, than testosterone.
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Thank you, Arch. After I produced the video, publishing it right before the 2012 elections, I got lots of hate mail. There’s nothing more frightening to certain men in power than empowered women. 😉 Why do you think the religious right-wingers are working around the clock, doing their damnedest to keep women pregnant, poor, and uneducated? There’s a method to their madness. Dopamine madness.
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That was YOURS?! I didn’t notice, because the name was in English! 33 other videos – I’ll have to check them out next week, when I have more time.
BTW, really liked the dissolves. Ya ain’t half bad, Kid!
Here —
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“That was YOURS?! I didn’t notice, because the name was in English! ”
I replied to another part of you comment below, but wanted to ask — what do you mean you didn’t notice, because the name was in English? Is your native tongue not English?
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Actually, most of me is, but it’s not easy to get past your Zapf Dingbats font, used in N℮üґ☼N☮☂℮ṧ, to see NeuroNotes!
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Victoria, I definitely see the picture! The problem of rape, an atrocity out of the darkest evil within men, is made worse when pregnancy occurs. And, made even worse by creating unwanted children. Certainly, birth control and abortion can prevent pregnancy and unwanted children. I believe birth control is perfectly acceptable, I don’t see a pre-implanted zygote as having the essence of human. As a moral realist, however, I have a harder time accepting abortion because I don’t know whether the embryo/fetus has the essence of human, so it’s more rational for me to assume it does until I have reason to think otherwise. But, politically my view is more complicated because I also believe in women’s rights. Basically because the fetus is within her, I cannot tell her what she can or cannot do to something that is part of her body. So, I can’t justify criminalizing abortion.
It’s true that abortion can prevent unwanted children and probably even subsequent criminality, but I also see other ways to prevent unwanted children. Simple utilitarian equations are not always helpful. Jonathan Swift wrote a famous satire during the Irish potato famine suggesting that the poor sell their children as food to the rich. Sure, that would solve the problem, but kids would DIE! So, I don’t think promoting abortion to prevent crime is necessarily a good thing for a moral realist. We need to explore ways to make every child feel loved and have opportunities. Just to show how serious I am about this, I’ll say that almost all the money I give to charity goes to a Haitian orphanage.
-Brandon
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“As a moral realist, however, I have a harder time accepting abortion because I don’t know whether the embryo/fetus has the essence of human”
Education is key to reducing pregnancies — as well as empowering women, globally. Abortion has dropped dramatically since the 70’s. Not because the radicals have been doing everything in their power to undermine women’s reproductive rights. According to the World Health Organization, a woman dies due to pregnancy complications ever 60 seconds. It further states that “maternal deaths are detrimental to social development and well being, as some one million children are left motherless each year. These children are more likely to die within 1-2 years of their mothers’ death.” http://www.who.int/features/qa/12/en/
Brandon, I respect your opinion, but I know that it is cruel and inhumane to bring life into the world if they are going to live a life of untold suffering, abuse, mental illness and atrophied brains. Every 5 seconds at least one person dies from starvation. Most are children. That’s every FIVE SECONDS. Caps for emphasis — not yelling.
Humans have more humanity for their pets when it comes to suffering than they do for humans. People also have the tendency to rank human life above all other life. Sure, we are on top of the food chain, and want to stay there. And you’re right — women should have the right to choose. Orphanages and foster homes have, for the most part, been toxic environments for children. That has to change. We are not prepared in America to take on millions of orphans. We are foolish to think that what happened in Romania will not happen here.
I think it’s awesome what you are doing with supporting an orphanage in Haiti. Just awesome. Let’s hope your money is reaching them. The system is incredibly corrupt and so many are not receiving relief.
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Based on feedback from the general public, it seems that women can be violent too, and testosterone isn’t the actual cause of violence. So, just to cover all bases, the Committee is happy for women to be invited to join the programme too. We’re not so concerned about thecauses of violence (until such time as these can all be comprehensively identified and dealt with) but we’re still quite confident that suppressing testosterone will quell the urge to violence in both sexes, regardless of the perceived reasons for wishing to violent. We’re proceeding to the first testing phase with the control group and will publish preliminary results in due course.
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You brought up equality for women, and that has traditionally been a problem, but we also have to address equality for men, too. Men and women treating other men equal. We have evidence that the alpha male (high testosterone) may have (most often has) a greater advantage of obtaining resources, but they tend to hog them. However, beta males tend to share their resources with their mates and offspring. But again, this is not to dis alpha males. Dopamine can also make you smart/smarter.
Studies also show that women will be more attracted to a bad-boy type or alpha male when she’s ovulating, but beta males when she’s not. Beta males have traditionally been demeaned and bullied and you can see this among baboon troops in the study I posted. Hope you get the time to read that article. If baboons can change their cultural dynamics (emphasizing neuroplasticity), to be more peaceful among themselves, we can too. When the dynamics changed (because of a fluke), there was less violence between males, and less violence on the females. There are clues to positive change in that study. It’s encouraging.
One more note — when I say equality, I am not suggesting that we don’t need leadership. Humans herd just like other species, with studies showing that approximately 95% follow the 5% (in crowds) without their awareness.
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Thanks, as ever you bring up great points! I need to dedicate some study time to everything you’ve pointed to. I got halfway through the gibbons (or was it baboons?) last night, totally fascinating. I love all the stuff about how we’re attracted to different types of people at different phases. I was reading that men also release more testosterone when they’re around ovulating females. We should all be so hyper aware of these facts – I think it’s a vitally important subject for sex education, for example. People get so carried away by attraction (Christians obsessing about sin are an interesting example) and it’s so much easier to control when you realise it’s just chemicals trying to convince you to breed. Perhaps the same goes for the urge to be violent, recognising it’s a surge of unnecessary hormone rather than any ‘genuine’ feeling might help. That’s why I mark PMT on my calendar (not that I get violent, but helps put rage in perspective). Maybe men need to mark ‘potential testosterone surge’ on their calendars – for all month, every month?
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And thank you, Violet. Addressing the causes of violence and finding ways to reduce it is extremely important, so I appreciate the opportunity to have this discussion as well as allowing it to evolve. I get so tired of hearing the same rhetoric about it all being caused by a ‘sin nature’ or having a lack of faith in a god, etc. It’s bunk. The very nature of most religions (tribalism and adherence to traditional hierarchical systems) exacerbates the problem regarding violence. The negative side-effects of traditional hierarchy structures is also evident in the article regarding the Forest Troop baboons. You wrote:
“I was reading that men also release more testosterone when they’re around ovulating females. We should all be so hyper aware of these facts – I think it’s a vitally important subject for sex education.”
I couldn’t agree more. It makes my skin crawl where I hear people quoting scriptures that say if a man looks upon a woman with lust he’s committed adultery, when in fact, it is perfectly natural behavior. Educating rather than shaming and blaming is the best approach. For example, have you ever heard of the Coolidge Effect?
http://www.reuniting.info/science/coolidge_effect
And speaking of the effects of hormones – neurotranmitters, I also wish this information was provided not only in sex education aimed at the young, but for anyone who’s involved in sexual activity. The column to the left of that website has some fascinating research on this subject and how it affects mood and behavior.
Again, thanks so much for taking the time to look over the info, especially the “Peace Among Primates” article. I look forward to your feedback.
Victoria
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That’s a great article. It should definitely be part of the sex education curriculum – in the ‘having realistic expectations of relationships’ section (sponsored by Disney and Stephanie Meyer).
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Violet, thanks so much for taking the time to read the article. You wrote:
“‘having realistic expectations of relationships’”
Exactly.
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Thanks for the all the links to the fascinating articles. I still to need to read them all again, and around them, for everything to sink in (my brain is overloading, it was close to tipping before this). Oxytocin, dogs, newborn babies – it’s all making sense now. I promote dog ownership frequently for people I’m sure it would benefit, although no-one takes my advice. At least I now know the chemical reason for it’s effectiveness.
Perhaps unsurprisingly, this quote from Peace Among Primates stood out for me:
“Are there any lessons to be learned here that can be applied to human-on-human violence—apart, that is, from the possible desirability of giving fatal cases of tuberculosis to aggressive people?”
Kind of makes my suggestion sound tame. If you could promote for a voluntary programme of something to deal with human violence, what would it be? Do you think there is any chemical or behavioural adjustment that would make a difference without losing key features of what it is to be human?
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Make mothering, care giving and education about infant/child brain development a priority in ALL societies. Do this and we will great changes. Motherhood and care giving is and has been devalued in many if not most cultures. We have our priorities ass backwards, and have for thousands of years. This video is around 5 or 6 minutes, but I think it’s worth your time.
— http://youtu.be/hvbQ9sr2Ols —
Yes, but it’s not going to be very encouraging:
“That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons of history.” ~Aldous Huxley
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Again, we’re in agreement – I said it earlier, but this comment of yours makes it worth repeating, “The hand that rocks the cradle, rules the world.”
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Yes, but they are not ruling the world. Traditionally, women have been devalued, property of men. My point in mentioning mothering and motherhood is not to suggest that women should drop everything to raise her children. She needs all the help she can get from the moment she finds out she’s pregnant, through her pregnancy, through recovery, and especially in the 1st five years of a child’s life. That has rarely been the case throughout recorded history. No, what rules the world is ignorance about how important it is. If you look at your most peaceful countries — they tend to value both women, children and education. It’s not rocket science.
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And MY point is, that she has more influence over the developing mind of that child, than any other person on the planet, and THAT’s where attitudes are shaped.
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“than any other person on the planet, and THAT’s where attitudes are shaped.”
And my point is that she shouldn’t be the only one responsible for raising and sculpting a child’s brain. Also, women have been blamed, no thanks to religion, on being ‘evil’ — and there’s an assumption that the world is fucked up because of women. So we need to be very careful not to point the finger at women for failing to raise healthy, well adjusted children.
Here’s some excellent research from Harvard on this subject should you be interested.
http://developingchild.harvard.edu/
Studies were done on pregnant mice. When these mice were subjected to high stress, their offspring were born with larger hindbrain and smaller forebrains. This meant that the pups came into the world prepared for fight or flight, simply because the mother was under a lot of stress. So attitude is not just what happens after the child is born.
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And I’m afraid you’re still missing mine – it isn’t a question of “should” or “shouldn’t.” Let’s take a Muslim country, for an extreme example, should a Muslim mother decide she wanted to teach her baby son not to be misogynistic, for example, do you really think she’s going to get any support from her husband?
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“do you really think she’s going to get any support from her husband?”
And whose hand is actually rocking the cradle? 😉
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I agree that being much more serious about parenting is key to improving conditions for all. I suspect better conditions in childhood would enable more men to control their testosterone as adults, making my voluntary programme rather redundant. Too many children are born by accident, on a whim or just in sheer repetitive motion. While it works out for many I’m sure, the assumption that parenting will come naturally is dangerous. I’d have been lost without the internet – imagine not being able to google why a screaming baby shouldn’t be left to cry it out.
I think we do learn lessons from history, it’s just the process takes a lot longer than we feel it should. Perhaps we should aim for change in our lifetime but resign ourselves to the fact it’ll take centuries. Thanks for all you input here, it’s been fascinating – you’re a mine of information!
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Great feedback. I get frustrated because we do have all this information at our fingertips. But there’s money to be made, and resources to steal, so creating healthy, safe environments (in all that that entails) for children continues to sit on the back burner. We have our work cut out for us and we have no ethical excuse for positive change taking centuries. Discussion like this need to be in the forefront, which is why I appreciate what you do on your blog. I spend more time reading and commenting on other blogs than writing in my two blogs, but it’s been an enriching experience meeting so many like-minded people, and gives me a sense of hope. Certainly not something I would find in my neck of the woods.
Hope you have a great week, and thank you for your kind words.
Victoria
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Oops, more typo/grammar errors. Hope Pink doesn’t come around and PTO. He won’t take well to my spicy reply. 😉
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“We’re not so concerned about the causes of violence” – we just want to suppress testosterone!
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I saw that TED talk a few years back. Such an excellent lecture. Thanks for posting it.
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Was it you, who posted the link to The Coolidge Effect? Whomever it was, great article!
Thanks to that article, the next time I see this girl I know, I plan to cup her face in my hands, gaze deeply into her seagreen eyes and murmur softly, “You raise my dopamine levels higher than anyone else I know –”
Don’t tell me I don’t know how to sweep a girl off her feet!
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LOL and yes, it was me who posted the article. Btw, that’s the best pick-up line I’ve ever heard from a guy. 😀
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I can totally imagine that doing the trick! Well, depending on how much alcohol is involved.
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Oh yeah I just remembered something! Here’s a great talk about the history of violence: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ramBFRt1Uzk. It’s a TED talk by Steve Pinker and as usual he has good ideas for us to ponder.
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Thanks, some really interesting ideas there. I especially like the bit at the end about the accessibility of other people’s lives through literature, tv, journalism, that wasn’t formally available to us, and that gives us in this age a much rounder picture of what life is like for other people. I can see how that must have a huge impact on how we treat one another.
But in general, yes, it’s extremely useful to point out the extent to which violence has declined in human society, and as we are on a downward trend perhaps we won’t have to resort to the mass chemical tampering programme. Or perhaps that’s why ‘they’ put flouride in in our tap water?
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You and I are not in disagreement, but you must also agree that it has only been within the last 150 years or so, that women have had any real power at all. I indicated that women should band together to gain power, simply because common sense and basic human nature dictate that the average person in power – be it male OR female – is highly unlikely to give it up to join what it perceives as the oppositional forces.
Today, yes, enlightened men, confident of their own masculinity, will join together with women in some societies, in women’s efforts to secure equal rights, but in more primitive, less educated societies, that is certainly not the case. If women want their burqas off, they’re not wise to expect their men to join with them in their effort.
I didn’t say it was right, only that it was true.
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Thank about it, Arch, same can be said about slaves throughout history. This isn’t about weak women not banning together. Slavery has existed for a very long time — and men were slaves too. While women have only gained ‘freedom’ in the last 150 years (in America at least), blacks/African-Americans only gained their freedom about 50 years ago during the civil rights movement, and they still struggle with discrimination.
Who holds the power? It is a cultural problem — hierarchical structure that ensures lots and lots of dopamine for those in power. It won’t go away because to many monkey’s keep this monkey structure in check.
Heil dopamine. 😉
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I’m sure I’m more familiar with that situation than you know, having been personally involved.
But the American Blacks, and quite a few enlightened Whites, decided to do something about it – they didn’t wait for American Rednecks to join them in their struggle. And if Muslim women wait for Muslim men to join them, they will have a long wait. Just sayin’ —
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They are not waiting around. Have you signed any petitions on behalf of these women in the Middle East? There’s lots of them, and yes, women are making progress there, little by little, but it’s very complex, Arch. Human rights is not a priority both in the Middle East and in America. Actions speak louder than words.
http://www.globalpolitician.com/print.asp?id=3422
I’ll check out your article.
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Not an article, just a photo I happen to have wandered into on my way to the Supermarket.
“Have you signed any petitions on behalf of these women in the Middle East?” – yes, I have, and I would invite you to, as well:
http://www.avaaz.org/en/malalahopenew/
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You’re awesome. I’m already involved and active with AVAAZ.org as well as Change.org, and signed that petition a while back and passed it along. Thank you for spreading the love. 🙂
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It has stalled out, and will never hit the million mark – sadly, now that she has recovered, she’s no longer news and the urgency factor went with it.
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I really appreciate you bringing that petition to my attention again, and the fact that it has stalled. I will retweet.
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875,000 is just too many signatures for it to not go over the top.
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Well, I’ve retweeted, and it’s also visible on my NRP blog. I checked out your other link. Thought it was excellent. Thanks for sharing. About my video — for clarification — in case anyone thinks I’m trying to plug my videos — I’m trying to bring awareness regarding the information contained in them. I’m an amateur at producing videos (free software), but I’ll use what ever medium I can to get the message out.
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Well, I, for one, will certainly not accuse you.
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Thank you. I’m with Violet regarding the concern and desire to find ways to curtail violence, and no doubt, you are on board too.
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Just not in all of the directions that she appears to be —
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Yes, of course, and I doubt Vi still thinks that’s the course that should be taken now as per her recent feedback.
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I doubt if she ever did, as I believe I recall that early on, she indicated it was only intended tongue in cheek.
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Well, I’m glad we are in agreement. Was your initial comment tongue and cheek, too? And if so, I wasted a few precious seconds of my life replying to it. 😉
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If you mean:
No, that was sincerely meant, as at that time, she hadn’t mentioned the tongue-in-cheek- part.
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“I’m sure I’m more familiar with that situation than you know, having been personally involved.”
I looked at your link. You ROCK! 🙂
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In my experience, men bristle at the suggestion of messing with their manly vibes. My apologies gentlemen but you need to smarten up and heed these wise words 🙂
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I certainly did bristle. Firstly when I injured my testicles and was told they would have to be removed. And, secondly, when it transpired that I didn’t handle testosterone replacement very well. However, I have since come to accept that I am for all intents and purposes a eunuch. There’s a calmness to life now and a quiet appreciation of my existence. I do miss sex but not the incessant drive to get it.
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Zheng He, 14th century Chinese admiral and commander of China’s mind blowing treasure fleet was a eunuch. Left to his own devices Zheng He could have ruled the world.
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Thanks for your comment, and from such an uncommon and relevant perspective. Calmness and quiet appreciation sound like positive side-effects. I didn’t miss sex when I lost my sex drive during pregnancy and lactation, it just seemed like curiously animalistic, base behaviour – humorously odd sans hormones. I’m intrigued that people find it so hard to imagine living without it.
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Violet, I got tickled when you said that sex seemed like animal based behavior . Sounded like what a fundie would say, especially those who deny that we are actually animals. lol But I get what you are saying— intuitively, the last thing a woman wants is another baby hanging to her tit after she’s just gone through hell giving birth and tending to her screaming, attention possessed youngens 24/7.
And as far as you being intrigued that people find it so hard to imagine living without sex — there’s a ton of research on the heath benefits of sex, and there are many. .
Just saying. 😀
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Meant to write *animalistic – base behavior. I think the ‘base behavior’ is what stood out because when I was a Christian, I attended women’s conferences and in some of these mettings, we were actually instructed to not bring out our partners ‘base passions’. Why — because it took his mind off of God. That is just fucked up ‘counsel’.
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That’s classic! Poor men and their struggle with base passions. That sounds like a good title for a future post.
I’m not sure if you did get my point about pregnancy and lactation, it wasn’t a lack of interest due to tiredness but a clear on/off switch with chemicals. They switched straight back on as soon as I stopped breastfeeding. It’s fairly common, although I know it doesn’t happen to all women, and a lot of women it does happen to wouldn’t like to admit to it. It’s not just the base animalistic urge that’s curious, but the fact that we fall for the testosterone-fuelled cultural indoctrination to make us think sex is ‘healthy’ and ‘good for relationships’. 😉
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I did get it which is why I didn’t want to sound redundant and reiterate what you wrote.
But sex is healthy and good for relationships. That’s a given. It releases bonding hormones. The hyper-masculinity part that is disadvantageous is when women are considered entertainment centers for men, and that orgasm is always the goal.
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Btw — did you read the research I posted on the health benefits? 😉
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Just had a quick look for as long as I can manage on a women’s magazine site. I see it is all fully referenced, but the tone, the whole site pains me. Anyway, it’s interesting, gives me an idea for a post on sex conspiracy. Thanks!
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Ack! I suspected you’d go there, lol. Live and learn. There’s plenty of research regarding the benefits on more ‘scientific’ sites.
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Any aluminum-foil hats involved? Just wondering —
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Oh, I hope so! Thanks for the tip.
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Well, I didn’t want to think of you without protection —
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Whereas in reality, we know that it’s nasty and abstinence makes the heart grow fonder!
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Not at all, it’s not nasty, it’s just over-rated and is generated by chemicals that can easily be neutralised. When those chemicals are neutralised, it becomes irrelevant.
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Since we are all bags of chemical interactions, that could likely be said of most bodily functions, as well, certainly, as the emotions. We could eliminate love, and appreciation of beauty, and tenderness, and all of those cumbersome emotions that toss us too and fro, and become automatons! I look forward to the day!
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This article shows research suggesting that mild reduction of testosterone can lower aggressive behavior. http://www.crimetimes.org/95d/w95dp6.htm
This, I think, compliments the Peace Among Primates article, and my comment that we should stop glamorizing hyper-masculinity. You can see just how much it is glamorized in the media. This creates the very behavior and outcomes you see in the Forest troop baboons, the high testosterone alpha males who lacked empathy, hogged the resources, and bullied lower ranking males. Thus, the lower ranking males turned on the females in frustration. But when the troop was transformed to a lessor alpha male dominated culture, what happened?
So, I do believe when we change the culture, reducing hyper-masculinity hero worship and encouraging/glamorizing that behavior, I think we will see dramatic changes, much like was demonstrated in the baboon study.
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I can’t wait to see Woody Allen replace Schwarzenegger as our new masculinity poster child!
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LOL — and ewwww to both. 😛
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:-))
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Pingback: blog break II | violetwisp
I think castration is a fine punishment for rape and I bet after the first public castration the number of rapes would drop considerably. Lay his penis and balls on a chopping block and whack! If it’s a woman who did the raping well we can find ways to punish her too I guess. Heck put that first public castration on national TV and make the rest of them pay per view.
In my case I’d personally have swung the ax myself!
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I think in cases where we know reoffending is going to occur or has occurred, it’s the best option. And certainly until we can find a more effective treatment for paedophilia, I don’t understand why it’s not more commonly used.
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