lurking 11: demonic possession
Exorcism is directed at the expulsion of demons or to the liberation from demonic possession through the spiritual authority which Jesus entrusted to his Church. Illness, especially psychological illness, is a very different matter; treating this is the concern of medical science. Therefore, before an exorcism is performed, it is important to ascertain that one is dealing with the presence of the Evil One, and not an illness. Catechism of the Catholic Church
Lying deep within the cornucopia of crazy Christian beliefs, perched somewhere between dinosaur-riding farmers and evil babies, is a real humdinger. It appears that in 2014 there are people with reasonable levels of education who believe that dark spirits rise up from the bowels of hell and take possession of human bodies. Ludicrous, I hear you cry! The tip-off came from Neuronotes, and I didn’t have to lurk very far to find real live Christian evidence in three of the blogs I follow.
the alter ego demon
Our foray starts innocently enough with passing remark about global pop superstar Beyonce:
Beyonce is, by her own admission, hosting a demon she knows as “Sasha Fierce”. She publicly testifies that when she performs, this alter-ego takes over and empowers her to do things that she herself could never do. Anyone who would dismiss this is ignorant of a very real occult (hidden) reality.
Yes, perhaps she needs an exorcism. That could explain everything.
the alien abduction demon
The next post I stumbled across questioned how likely it is that people are abducted by aliens, suggesting instead the much more rational explanation that they are possessed by Satan’s minions.
Typically, the victims are taken against their will. Some have said they were able to smell the odour of sulphur, which is not uncommon in cases of demonic possession. Many of these abductees have a history of engaging in occultic or New Age practices, which leaves people in a state of spiritual vulnerability, and whom are also frequent in presentations of possession. Similarly, a drop in temperature in the abduction environment is also reported, along with involuntary levitation of the contactee. […]
Abductees have reported numerous times that the ‘alien’ beings de-materialise when the Holy Name of Jesus is invoked. They have been reported to have walked through walls of buildings, and are evidently of an angelic nature rather than a material one. Likewise, their craft often defy the laws of physics.
Most encounters with ufonauts and their craft occur around 3 am. Crucially, demonologists and exorcists report that this time is a peak of diabolical activity – the ‘Devils hour’: an inversion of 3 pm, whereby the death of Our Blessed Lord on the Cross is blasphemously parodied.
the biblical demon
To be honest, however archaic, dangerous and ignorant it may appear to anyone living in the real world, there is nothing unusual about Christians believing in demons. As our next post points out, the Bible is very clear about exactly what demons are and no amount of cherry picking interpretation games can explain them away for Christians.
Characteristics of Demons: Mark 5:1-20 is the definitive passage on demon possession and its effects in the Bible. Some of the details about demons the Bible reveals in this passage are:
1. Devils want to be near dead human bodies or tombs (vs. 2, 3, 5).
2. They can cause unusual strength (vs. 3-4).
3. They can make a person unreasonable or immune to sensible persuasion (vs. 4).
4. They cause excessive crying (vs. 5).
5. They cause sadistic and masochistic behavior (vs. 5).
6. They have an affinity for heights (vs. 5).
7. They recognize Christ as “the Son of God” and appeal to Him (vs. 6-7).
8. They know they deserve torment and dread it (vs. 6-7).
9. They have names (vs. 9).
10. More than one can possess the same body (vs. 9).
11. They desire to stay in the same geographical region or “country” (vs. 10). territorial.
12. They would rather indwell an animal body than none at all (vs. 12).
13. They can cause animals to kill themselves (vs. 13).
14. They desire to be in a body when it dies (vs. 13).
15. They have a desire for water (vs. 13). […]When a case of demon-possession is highly suspected, the following is recommended:
1. The person needs to be confronted with the fact that their state is a result of their willful decision to yield to the evil spirits rather than to their Creator-God.
2. The person must be enjoined to repent of the sin of worshipping false gods and turn to Christ for forgiveness and salvation. Note: in some cases, due to the severity of the demonic attack it may be impossible to share the gospel. See the next step.
3. The Prayer of Faith: The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective. James 5:16. (For the right kind of faith see I Cor. 13:2). Pray that the afflicted will be convicted of sin (his or hers), righteousness (Christ’s), and judgement (its certainty) (see John 16:5-11). Pray that the Lord Jesus, to whom all authority is given, will release this person from the bondage of the demon(s).
It is recommended that you not be alone but in the company of other believers who will pray with you.
It is also recommended by some that you pray out loud. Demons cannot read our thoughts.
conclusion
Although this all undoubtedly entertaining for those of us who like to poke fun at yet another painfully ignorant Christian belief, let’s not forget how breathtakingly dangerous this can be. Let’s not forget the way these teachings are the affecting the lives of children with mental and physical problems, and countless others across the world. These beliefs lead directly to the suffering, torture and death of innocent people.
Terrance Cottrell Jr., Wisconsin Age: 8 Died: Aug 22, 2003
Diagnosed as autistic at 2, he was a problem child. Church members thought he was possessed by the devil. In an exorcism he was held down for two hours until he suffocated. The pastor was sentenced to prison, but never admitted guilt.
“They can make a person unreasonable or immune to sensible persuasion”
B’wahahahaa!
On a more serious note, a recent and shocking exorcism/murder of toddlers:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/mother-charged-with-murder-in-killings-of-two-toddlers/2014/01/18/8dfe3bc4-804a-11e3-95c6-0a7aa80874bc_story.html
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Shudder. We only really hear about the ones that die, which means thousands more are being abused and tortured because churches are pedalling this nonsense. As the Vatican says, ” it is important to ascertain that one is dealing with the presence of the Evil One, and not an illness.” – makes it all better.
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Oh well, in that case… 😦
Doesn’t look like my baiting of Fide worked. He remains behind his walls
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I’m sure that Neuron – who, hands down, is far better at research than I – could quickly dig up the stats, but some time back, I read (possibly in Psychology Today) that people who were ill, and who had been TOLD they were being prayed for, when actually, they weren’t, got well faster than those who actually were being prayed for.
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Sorry, this comment was intended as a response to insanity, below.
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That was a study funded by the Templeton Foundation. They tried to smother the findings, but some of the researchers leaked it.
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Have any links, John?
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This is one done through the Mayo Clinic
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/no-prayer-prescription/
and this is a review of the Templeton one
http://atheism.about.com/b/2011/02/28/templeton-foundation-funds-worthless-prayer-study.htm
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Thanks, John. As always, you’re on your toes, but those ballerina slippers must be killing your feet!
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Not really. Luckily my mother bound my feet in bamboo as a baby 😉
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I think it was this one. From Wiki:
The STEP project[edit]
Harvard professor Herbert Benson performed a “Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP)” in 2006.[27] The STEP, commonly called the “Templeton Foundation prayer study” or “Great Prayer Experiment”, used 1,802 coronary artery bypass surgery patients at six hospitals. Using double-blind protocols, patients were randomized into three random groups, but without measuring individual prayer receptiveness. The experimental and control Groups 1 and 2 were informed they may or may not receive prayers, and only Group 1 received them. Group 3, which tested for possible psychosomatic effects, was informed they would receive prayers and subsequently did. Unlike some other studies, STEP attempted to standardize the prayer method. Only first names and last initial for patients were provided and no photographs were supplied. The congregations of three Christian churches who prayed for the patients “were allowed to pray in their own manner, but they were instructed to include the following phrase in their prayers: ‘for a successful surgery with a quick, healthy recovery and no complications’.[28] Some participants complained that this mechanical way they were told to pray as part of the experiment was unusual for them. Major complications and thirty-day mortality occurred in 52 percent of those who received prayer (Group 1), 51 percent of those who did not receive it (Group 2), and 59 percent of patients who knew they would receive prayers (Group 3). Some prayed-for patients fared worse than those who did not receive prayers. In The God Delusion, evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins wrote, “It seems more probable that those patients who knew they were being prayed for suffered additional stress in consequence: ‘performance anxiety’, as the experimenters put it. Dr Charles Bethea, one of the researchers, said, ‘It may have made them uncertain, wondering am I so sick they had to call in their prayer team?'”[29] Study co-author Jeffery Dusek stated that: “Each study builds on others, and STEP advanced the design beyond what had been previously done. The findings, however, could well be due to the study limitations.”[30] Team leader Benson stated that STEP was not the last word on the effects of intercessory prayer and that questions raised by the study will require additional answers.[31]
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Yup, that would be it.
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Here’s another take:
http://www.freethoughtpedia.com/wiki/Harvard_prayer_experiment
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https://www.templeton.org/what-we-fund/grants/study-of-the-therapeutic-effects-of-intercessory-prayer-step-replication-and-exp
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Your baiting of Fide? You taunted him with nasty and uncalled for personal insults before he’d even said anything. Don’t ever think of becoming a professional baiter … 🙂
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That was my baiting 😉 Plus he did say something… he dismissed it, which was proof he couldn’t counter-argue.
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Rubbish! He said it’s not an argument he goes for, in which case there’s no point in defending it. We need to find a Christian who thinks it is a valid logical route to the god God. Have you come across any? I’ll charm them across. I’m sure I could be charming if I put my mind to it … 😉
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No point defending it, why? He gave no explanation. That, Wisp, is dismissing it because he can’t argue against it. Typical apologists’ move, though, and i’m not at all surprised. Check & Mate
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Eh? Sorry, just imagining you with maracas and flouncy sleeves, shimmying round a hammock as you say that …
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You spying on me, again?
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🙂
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I really wouldn’t like to see you strain anything — :p
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You’re on tip top wit form today, aren’t you?
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Let’s say I’m half there —
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I think it would be great if we took a more holistic approach to healing psychological problems. Some of you don’t like exorcising demons, but there is also prayer and meditation, mindfulness, a whole host of things outside the realm of traditional medicine that have been proven to be very helpful.
Also, not all exorcisms are a horror story fashioned after a movie. If you don’t believe in the religious concepts, there can still be the power of suggestion. Or the healing that comes from being heard and listened to like you might also encounter with a therapist.
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In case you don’t catch up with the rest of the comments, some links have been posted for you in the wrong place, on research into the effectiveness of prayer:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/no-prayer-prescription/
http://atheism.about.com/b/2011/02/28/templeton-foundation-funds-worthless-prayer-study.htm
And if none of that convinces you how useless it is, Robert Nielson did an excellent post backed up by even more research:
http://robertnielsen21.wordpress.com/2013/03/26/whats-the-point-of-prayer/
“Also, not all exorcisms are a horror story fashioned after a movie.” Yes, a lot of them are just superstitious waste of everyone’s time. But even those that don’t end in disaster contribute to encouraging the ignorance of the idiots involved in the all too frequent torture and death exorcisms. They have no function and there is no evidence to suggest they are anything other than harmful. Please take time to read more of the stories that end in disaster on the ‘What’s the harm?’ website:
http://whatstheharm.net/exorcisms.html
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Well, far be it from me to play devil’s advocate here (Bwahahahahahaha!), but evil babies are real!
Speaking of walking through walls, if Yeshua (Jesus) were actually the son of god, how much more angelic can one get? Why do you supposed he needed the stone rolled away, to get out of the tomb? How much more miraculous, if the tomb had remained sealed? (Cue “Twilight Zone” theme –)
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I skimmed through, read 3,4,6,9,12,14, 15, and got really worried. Then I looked back and saw 7. I guess I’ve got nothing to worry about after all.
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The thing that concerns me most is that they have names. I know lots of people with names and some of them cry.
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Agreed with your analysis, I had to Occam’s Razor demons when I learned about neuropsychiatric illness! Although, it makes sense for prescientific peoples to think that certain problems were caused by invisible beings.
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I’m still convinced that gremlins hide my car keys! I mean, would I put them in the freezer?
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I know, right! And, sock gnomes!
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Sorry, no such things as “sock gnomes” – see, socks are interdimensional beings, and the universe is out of balance unless there’s one of each kind of sock in each parallel universe – the clothes dryer is their form of conveyance – two socks go in, only one sock comes out. Hope that clarifies things for you —
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That would be Velles, the Slavic god of mischief, music and magicians.
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“Although, it makes sense for prescientific peoples to think that certain problems were caused by invisible beings.” No argument there. In the absence of the information available to us today, possession is a perfectly reasonable assumption. What’s you take on the New Testament then? Why did the character Jesus not know about all this when he allegedly killed the pigs?
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We humans are strange animals, with an almost pathological need for closure – prior to the Age of Reason, if we didn’t know the cause of something, we would make one up, based on the prevailing “common sense” d’jour. Doubtless all early societies had their magical reasons for why things are as they are. Early Greek culture, which thanks to Alexander’s conquests in 300 BCE, pervaded the known world, had it’s “pneuma,” meaning, depending upon its use, both “breath,” and “spirit,” in the latter case, a very thin, yet material substance that at birth, ultimately developed into the “soul.” Diseases were caused, alternately, by the gods, and by “daimons,” but by the middle of the first century, CE, Celsus began his medical textbook, during the reign of Tiberius, by stating that, “long ago, diseases were attributed to the anger of the gods” – he rejected this view.
Apparently, Jesus didn’t get the memo.
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That’s a great question actually, I’m glad you asked! It makes sense for the author to have Jesus cast demons into pigs because pigs are “unclean” in Judaism. Even in modern Judaism eating pork is not kosher. So, the author intended to emphasize specifically to the Jewish reader Jesus’ authority over evil forces in the cosmic battle of good versus evil.
More generally, I find there are lots of ways of approaching Jesus on demons. Let’s suppose that we know 100% that demons do not exist (as opposed to simply believing that they don’t exist). The question is, did Jesus know this? First of all, I don’t think Jesus knew everything, he was human with a finite brain. In fact, scripture points out clearly how human Jesus was since he was tempted, wept, ate, and suffered a great deal. So, it’s entirely possible that Jesus as a human did not know that demons do not exist. The other possibility is that Jesus did know. That raises the question, then why not tell everyone else? I think ultimately it would not add anything to Jesus’ message. The existence of demons was irrelevant to Jesus’ message. Even if demons don’t exist, neuropsychiatric illness exists.
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If one accepts the conclusion of the Council of Nicea in 325 CE (and even though WE may not, the religious must), then Yeshua (Jesus) is both god and the holy spook, and by definition, MUST know everything, having, as it were, created everything.
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Arch, it’s possible that as God manifested as Jesus, to become fully human he had to give up omniscience. “Christ Jesus, who though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited, but emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, being born in human likeness. And being found in human form, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death – even death on a cross.” Also, Jesus says that no one knows the hour of the Judgment except the Father in Mark 13. So, by his own admission Jesus as human was not omniscient.
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If he were truly omnipotent, why would he “HAVE” to do anything?
Yes, well, he is sufficiently quoted throughout the four gospels, with referencing his father, speaking to his father, praying to his father, relating that his father had given him the power he was said to have possessed, that even if he had ever existed, which I seriously doubt, and if there WERE a god, which I’m convinced there isn’t, there is a considerable insufficiency of evidence for the Council of Nicea to ever have concluded that there are three, three, three gods in one. THIS has always been one of my favorite images —
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Arch, your objections are all legitimate. I can only say I think the church has a history of trying to oversimplify something that is quite complex. On the other hand, there are serious theologians who think about what it means to be human and deity. My own view is that Jesus was fully human, experiencing the human condition as we do including praying to God, but also perfectly had the Spirit of God guiding his thoughts and actions and also had some revelations as a prophet. What fundamentally gives Jesus identity is equal to God’s identity, whereas all other humans have an identity as created beings.
Deep theology!
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You seem like such a nice, pleasant, polite and sincere person Naive, that I’m going to forgo my usual tirade about how there is absolutely no evidence to indicate that Yeshua was an actual, historical person. Not many theists get that kind of reprieve, it’s a testimony to your character.
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Thanks, I take that as a high compliment 😀
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You should probably take back your “Like,” Ain’tNo – that was written a year ago when I didn’t know him as well as I do now and believed he was truly naive, rather than smarmy and manipulative – I have long since ceased to “forgo my usual tirade” where Brandon is concerned. His primary goal, I have learned, is congratulating himself on being sufficiently clever as to sway people’s opinions to his way of thinking.
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“You seem like such a nice, pleasant, polite and sincere person Naive” Fantastic! Bet you didn’t even remember you’d had such a thought!
I’ve be re-reading old posts the last few days looking for quotes I can’t find, and I’ve noticed on so many occasions he starts the conversation nice and thoughtful, then suddenly gets snarky and angry, then apologises. It’s a total pattern. Poor guy is constantly fighting himself, trying to be something he’s not. Must make life hell. I think he means well but he’s really struggling with something.
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“Bet you didn’t even remember you’d had such a thought!” – It may have happened during a rare moment of sobriety – I tend to blank those moments out, as I do such uncharacteristic things.
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Since you have been granted a reprieve by arch, I will try to be nice too.
I think the church has a history of complicating simple stuff like the world is indifferent to your cares by populating the world with spirits, both good and evil.
All the theologians who have thought about what it means to be a deity have left us with nothing to refer to that would make sense for any reasonable individual.
My own view is that Jesus is a legend, just like others that have been told before him and are still being told to date. I will digress a bit to just tell you one. In my community, a story is told of a man who was so strong, his body would not be pierced by a spear. So he killed many during wars. Just like Solomon and Delilah, he was given a woman who discovered his power lay in his shadow information she passed on to her people and they killed him by spearing his shadow. There is even a stone where he died, I can show you the stone.
If Jesus had spirit of god guiding his actions, then everyone else after him should actually claim the same status for he sent the spirit, I hear it is holy, to be with men.
Serious thinking!
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I’m glad your thinking! That’s a fascinating legend from your community. I’m wondering, do you think any of the stories about Jesus might be historical? For example, have you heard of the “knowable facts” of the historical Jesus? None of them involve miracles. Here are three: 1) Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist. The reasons historians think this is historical is because it’s unlikely for a Christian author to make Jesus appear to need to be baptized given his divine status. 2) Jesus was a teacher. 3) Jesus was crucified. There is some extrabiblical evidence. Also, it doesn’t make sense in the first century for Christians to make up that their leader was executed yet was Lord. If he was crucified, he was cursed in their eyes. Literally, it was a law in the Old Testament.
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There are those in my community who think this is just a story and those who think it is true. How is it any different from the Jesus case?
Have you read works by a certain fellow by the name Celsus?
Let us start from somewhere. This historical Jesus that scholars agree on, can you describe him? And while at it, I am interested in knowing whether he was tall or short, had a big or small head, you know the kind of information you would have for such a personage the way we have for Pericles.
Do you think it makes sense for people in the 19th or is it in the 20th Century to believe that a fraud like Joseph Smith received gold plates which he translated from an angel of god? If it is possible to believe this now, it is not out of the question that people would believe it then. All you need is a good marketer!
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He was 6 feet tall, had light skin and long brown hair, a beard and friendly face, wore a white robe and blue or red sash depending on the day, and leather sandles. 😀
Yeah, it’s kind of odd that the first century writers were so disinterested in physical appearance, definitely not like today. And, you bring up good points about belief and marketing.
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A 6-foot tall Jew, from 2000 years ago, when the average Roman was 5’9? Absurd, at best. Had he actually existed, he would have been about 5’6, if that, skin darkened from being in the elements with no personal home, and greasy black hair from genetics and the lack of sanitation facilities.
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We are getting somewhere I hope.
You see, in all these claims about Jesus, you have the bible to go on and a few extra biblical documents some of which have been declared spurious. Anyone claiming a historical Jesus such as the one by Erhman is not the same one many people believe in. It would be a strange being to them.
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I’m not sure that that would necessarily have been the case, if he were unjustly accused. The Bible is full of martyrs. The entire birth narrative in the gospels was deliberately concocted to portray Yeshua as the sacrificial lamb.
Any idea what a Migdal is? Mid-page, look into the description of how newborn sacrificial lambs are treated.
(And BTW, Mary Magdalene was a misnomer – she would have been Mary the Migdalene, having been born near a Migdal.)
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Some scholars think it was a perfect storm that got Jesus executed. It was Passover and he was very critical of temple abuses and the religious leaders, and the Romans had been dealing with uprisings so they were quick to pull the trigger on perceived threats. In a sense Jesus should have known he would be executed, and indeed he does in the Gospel narratives.
I have heard about Migdal. This is a parallelism from Richard Carrier, right?
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No, it’s a product of my personal research. – read my link.
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It’s an interesting parallelism but it doesn’t prove that the narratives about Jesus’ crucifixion were constructed as such. Maybe it was the other way around, the story of Migdal was constructed from the Gospels. I hate to sound so critical, I’m pretty sympathetic to atheism since I was one, but I have never seen any convincing argument using parallelism.
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The use of the Migdal reaches far back into Jewish antiquity – ask any Rabbi – I’m sorry if you feel the need to grasp at straws, to support your new-found belief system.
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There’s no need to patronize, I’m on your side just trying to understand reality! You are saying that Migdal predates the Gospels so that it would be impossible for the Gospels to inspire the Migdal story. I’m OK with that. It’s possible that the authors of the Gospels were aware of Migdal and it played a role in how they wrote the story, but how does this make more likely that all the events were fictional? How can you go from possible to probable or even to a stronger argument like “The authors entirely wrote fiction”?
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Actually, I don’t do any of those things, I just say “Show me the evidence,” and let the chips fall where they may. Hope that wasn’t too patronizing for you.
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I agree, evidence is essential to developing a rational worldview. I don’t mean to criticize you, I think you’re a rational thoughtful person, and I’m pleased that we can interact on Violet’s blog. I do, however, have criticism for parallelism arguments because I think they are asking for more than they claim to offer. To demonstrate my sincerity I will say that arguments of contradiction (i.e., Bart Ehrman) and arguments against miracles (i.e., David Hume) are better than arguments of parallelism. It’s just harder to meaningfully connect parallels to fiction than it is to say “We don’t know what happened” because there are contradictions.
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That sounds like the sort of answer I would have given when I was a Christian. Not very convincing. 🙂 To be honest, it’s inconceivable that an omniscient god on earth who had power to do anything (even if he couldn’t remember everything) would unnecessarily destroy so many animals in a display of ignorance that achieves nothing other than set back the treatment of people with mental illnesses, and has resulted in torture and murder that is still happening all too frequently today. The perpetuation of damaging ignorance would surely not be relevant part of Jesus’ message, from any Christian’s point of view.
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Oh I didn’t know you were a Christian at one point, Violet. Anyway, I can understand why my response is not satisfying. My only criticism is that I don’t think it’s reasonable to blame Jesus for future mistreatment of the mentally ill. Jesus healed the mentally ill, he didn’t lock them in the basement or lobotomize them. It seems logical for followers of Jesus to try to help the mentally ill rather than harm them. As for the herd of pigs, I can understand how this part of the story is morally upsetting to you. I sympathize with your conscience.
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Maybe you should have a quiet word with him, then? A sort of one on one..him being such a personal god and all that, right?
Sheesh. Some mothers do ‘ave ’em.
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I just hope they will not hurt any animals or cause them to commit suicide!
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Sorry, Mak, but it’s too late for the lemmings —
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That is quite sad.
When they say the demons can go through walls, my question is can they go through floors as well or what holds them back?
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I can’t speak for demons (let the little buggers speak for themselves!), but I can say that it is a misconception that lemmings commit suicide by throwing themselves off of cliffs. For reasons totally unknown to science, every four years, groups of lemmings undergo a population explosion, literally eating themselves out of house and home, and thus, must go elsewhere in search of food. Being good swimmers, they have been known to throw themselves off of cliffs, not to commit suicide, but rather into the sea, in an effort to swim to another piece of land with more food. It is true, that some drown in the process, but that was never the original intention. Sorry, no demon possession here —
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I learn something everyday
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I, too, Mak – I only researched it further, because I knew if I made an erroneous statement, either Vi or Neuron would call me on it!
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Clearly they choose to walk through walls and they choose to stand on floors. Duh! They’re rational creatures.
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Forgive my being slow 😀
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Another dent in Jesus’ claim to be the god God on Earth. Certainly makes it difficult for animal lovers to take the message seriously. Or anyone with a pig farm. (Why’s Arch talking about lemmings??)
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Oh yes, why cast them demons in pigs? seriously. Well maybe it is based on the belief that man has dominion over all things o you can do as you please, cursing fig trees and all.
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Because Mak mentioned animal suicide, and lemmings are (falsely) believed to deliberately commit suicide. If you’ll skip a little faster, you can keep up. 🙂
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And also the writer’s sheer ignorance of the geography of the area. Have you any idea how far the closes cliff is in this particular scene?
Miles and miles. We are talking about some seriously bloody fit pigs here, make no mistake.
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Speaking of which, how about the cliff the men of Nazareth were going to throw Big J off of, Nazareth is located in a valley – no cliffs for miles —
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Yes, the, ”Luke was an excellent historian”, argument.
My backside, he was, and if he had ever taken a geography class all bis students would have failed.
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At least Luke (Luke, 1:1 -2) was honest enough to admit that his information was obtained from, “eyewitness,” rather than claiming he had any first-hand knowledge himself. The other three anonymous Gospel writers were far less forthcoming.
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I was taught early in my Christian days that demons couldn’t possess believers. The Holy Spirit indwells a believer and they are ‘sealed’ by that spirit. How, then, could a person who was ‘sealed’ by a person of the Trinity be demon possessed? But that also meant that I, at some point, believed in angels and demons. Ugh!
After I left the church and was having serious doubts I’m given to understand that the pastor did a sermon series on angels and demon possession. A very dear friend of mine asked me to go to lunch. When we met she was a mess. She was absolutely convinced that she had a demon attached to her – not possessing her, mind you, but attached. She had prayed and fasted and prayed some more. I asked her why she thought this? Apparently she was in a very deep depression, to which I replied, “Honey, you don’t need any more prayer, you need a doctor.” WTH? She asked me to pray with her, which I obliged because she seemed so fragile and because I had been where she was. But in the end I convinced her that her problem was most likely not spiritual and she did call a doctor, thankfully.
This whole teaching about demons and angels is what makes people sick, not because they physically exist, but because they exist in a person’s mind. They might as well be real.
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It’s another really harmful aspect of Christianity (and most other religions) that I wasn’t fully aware of. It’s so easy to laugh about it that you forget how dangerous it can be for those who believe it. If it’s not bad enough that Satan is trying to trick you to be bad all the time, there’s also the possibility that if you break a commandment (as is stated on third post I link to) a demon can possess you. Nuts!!!
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So many things exist in people’s minds and some of these creatures are pretty scary! And worse still others can still see them
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It’s a funny thing what the mind can do, isn’t it?
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I tell you! and it is usually not easy to get off
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No, it’s not. Especially if you have “seen” things. It’s hard to convince a person that was just in their mind.
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I really do need to read his book(s)! So much readin’ so little time….
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Not sure how that happened. It was supposed to be a reply to arch. Once more, geographically challenged….sigh
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Easy done, the reply button’s under a line that seems to signify the end of a section. I always have to scroll down to the bottom of the comments to remember the configuration … geographically challenged on my own blog!
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:p
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I read an article t’other day about a Priest who was up in arms about internet exorcisms. He claimed they were performed by charlatans as anyone knows a proper exorcism can only be performed face to face.
I wish I could remember where I read this pearler.
I’ll look for it for you.
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Oh…and nice bug 😉
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Haven’t found it yet..but this will open your eyes.
http://religiousatrocities.wordpress.com/?s=exorcism
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Thank you! 🙂
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Ark maybe it isn’t this http://www.womenofgrace.com/blog/?p=27574 article but I think it makes the same claim.
And here is another gem
http://www.boston-catholic-journal.com/an-interview-with-father-gabriele-amorth-the-church's-leading-exorcist.htm
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It was the second one, I’m sure. Thanks, Mak.
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Sounds promising: “you must always go to the doctor before you go to the exorcist”
Then becomes overly disturbing, “Fifteen years ago there were 20 church-appointed exorcists in Italy. Now there are 300.” The market is rising!
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SO many demons, so little time —
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Allow me to translate that for you Ark, if I may, from the religious-speak: “Exorcisms should never be performed by internet charlatans – proper exorcism can only be performed by our, legitimate, God-fearing, Bible-believing charlatans.“
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Lol…there y’go
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Oh, Violet. This is such a serious topic…and yet I know sometimes the only way to navigate through something so disturbing is to address it with humor (because otherwise we’d all just cry). After my son was born I ended up with severe postpartum depression…as a devout catholic I thought he was possessed by a demon, because of the non-stop screaming (he was eventually diagnosed with autism). Then I started to think I was possessed by a demon because I couldn’t handle it. Thankfully nothing terrible came of this, but the combination of religion and mental illness is a terrifying thing.
That’s one of the major reasons I call myself an “anti-theist”…strangely enough people think I’m an insane monster for trying to debunk religion. Only on atheist blogs does it seem people are aware of the harm religion does…but dammit, that’s the wrong type of people who need to be fighting crap like exorcism! The f’ing CHURCH has to fight this too, and they won’t. So atheists are stuck with the job, and the theists hate us for it and won’t listen to us at all. 😦 It’s all deeply sad and disturbing to me.
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Speaking of children, AintNo, but not exactly on the topic of demonic possession, are you at all familiar with Valerie Tarico? Here’s a blog entry of hers that you might appreciate —
Yes, we’re not exactly the ones who need information like this, and yes, the ones that do, tend to reject it, but often our strong opinions reach the “undecideds,” and slowly the word spreads. We don’t need to overcome the theists in order to make changes, just outnumber them.
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I know you’re right Arch about us possibly being able to reach the “undecideds.” I just worry, because I’m sure you’ve seen the articles citing how atheists are less trusted than murders and rapists in US. I don’t know how we can affect change fast enough or far enough when the population in general has no respect for us at all…and thus many, many atheists here stay hidden. I think there might be a lot of hope for younger generations though…perhaps religion will just DIE OUT. I hope.
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It is a serious topic indeed. It was Victoria Neuronotes who alerted me to it and I was totally shocked that it’s still taken seriously by any mainstream denominations. My appreciation for the Catholic Church in particular plummeted to even lower depths. But do you know, I can totally understand how ignorance of conditions can make people believe in this vile nonsense, or just sheer desperation. I know what it’s like with screaming babies and crazy toddlers particularly.
“Only on atheist blogs does it seem people are aware of the harm religion does…but dammit, that’s the wrong type of people who need to be fighting crap like exorcism! ”
You’re right. Especially when it comes to things like exorcism, where even Christians who think it’s nonsense are faced with the stories of Jesus and his followers doing just that.
What would you think if I used that last paragraph as the base of a post? I think it’s an excellent discussion point, but if you’d be uncomfortable, or if you’re planning to use that angle yourself, let me know.
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Go ahead and use it Violet…it suits your blog and your readership better than mine, and I’m interested in what they’d have to say. 🙂
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