the slippery sliding scale of religious delusion
Without exception, every Christian denomination believes in an all-powerful and benevolent creator deity. They believe this god, God, has left guidance for mankind in written form, in a collection of books called the Bible. Each Christian group interprets the words of their holy book quite differently, and this variance can be measured on a slippery sliding scale of religious delusion. Let’s examine this scale of 1 through to 5 in more detail, following the hot topic of homosexuality.
Point 1. The Christian Universalist Church has a strapline of “All God’s children – No-one left behind!”. Their interpretation of the god God does not involve the notion of an all-knowing, nice deity who creates sentient beings in the form of humans with the ultimate aim of punishing and torturing the majority of its creation. They like to quote Jesus saying , “When I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all people to myself.” (John 12:32) and require that all their members “pledge that they do not endorse any form of hatred or discrimination based on race, ethnicity, nationality, gender, sexual orientation, or disability.”
Point 2. Since 2009, Quakers in Britain have backed equality in marriage. They recognise that the Bible is a “product of the time period in which it was written, although there are many messages with relevance to all times” and feel that “in the context of Biblical times homosexual relationships may have been extra-marital or have had different meanings, and therefore the Bible references to same-sex relationships don’t necessarily relate to committed relationships”.
Point 3. There are a lot of confused churches hanging around point 3 on the scale in this year of 2014. These churches are careful, distressed and almost falling apart over the issue of same sex coupling. We’ll take the Presbyterian Church of Scotland as our example church. Just last year they allowed actively gay men and women to become ministers, but this was a concession for liberal areas to opt out of the standard church policy on homosexuality, the practice of which is still generally regarded as sinful.
Point 4. Here we find the biggest Christian denomination in the world, the Catholic Church, which tells us: “Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that ‘homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered'”. They have an interesting suggestion for those of a homosexual persuasion who fall within their ranks: “Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.”
Point 5. At the end of the scale, we find the Westbro Baptist Church, whose website godhatesfags (I refuse to link) boasts charming pages listing endless Bible verses to populate informative tracts such as “Bible Verses About The Hatred Of God” and “God Loves Everyone: The Greatest Lie Ever Told. 701 Passages Proving God’s Hate and Wrath for Most of Mankind”.
What the scale tells us. The slippery sliding scale of religious delusion is useful for us to measure just how coherent those who follow the Bible are, because, unfortunately, if you do actually read the Bible, you’ll find that the nasty nutcases who reside on Point 5 of the scale are paying more attention to the words of this allegedly holy book than the nice people at the other end. If a benevolent being wrote the Bible, quite frankly I’ll eat my hat.
If a benevolent being wrote the Bible, quite frankly we need to redefine the term ‘benevolent’.
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Agreed, benevolent must be redefined
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I’m not going to let them steal words! They need to redefine their god.
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Only in your dreams. 😀
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I’ll bring the mustard. 🙂
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As you’ll be eating your hat too, you can bring any condiment you fancy. 🙂
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Beautiful photo. What is the flower?
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Thank you! It’s a “Passiflora, known also as the passion flowers or passion vines, is a genus of about 500 species of flowering plants, the namesakes of the family Passifloraceae”. From a Passion fruit vine in our old garden. It’s a religious plant that the god God created to remind Catholics of the death of the character Jesus.
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Okay. Just Googled it.
We grow a species at the Ark’s spot – Grenadilla – ( I posted a photo somewhere, I’m sure) which Ems uses in her cakes.
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The Westbro Baptist Church is really just one small family, run by an abusive former Democrat. The Baptists don’t claim him and neither do most people in the world. Fred Phelps is currently in a care facility in poor health. It amazes me how much publicity people give him, attempting to hold him up as if he were representative of Christianity.
The bible does not support hating gays, unless you wish to take it out of context and distort the meaning. Obviously there are both some Christians and some atheists that enjoy doing this.
Kind of ironic, the parts of the world where homosexuals are executed, persecuted are not Christian areas, they are predominantly Muslim. How come you don’t criticize the Koran, Islam, and the merge of religion with state power all over the world?
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How/why did you choose to describe the Westboro man as a ‘democrat’? What’s that supposed to mean? That left leaning people are…?
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I chose to say that because it’s the truth. There is a stereotype being promoted in the world that seems to imply that Dems/liberal Christians are sane, Republican/conservatives are all insane and bigots. That’s a myth. Fred Phelps is proof that insanity crosses all political and religious lines. Those we are quick to label bigots may indeed be motivated by something other than hatred.
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According to the United States Department of State — International Religious Freedom Report, Uganda is a predominantly Christian country with Muslims being a minority.
“How American evangelicals made life unbearable for gays in Uganda”
“Fanned by Western evangelicals, homophobia has spread across the African continent voraciously in recent years, including Uganda, Zimbabwe, Malawi, Nigeria and the Democratic Republic of the Congo to the point that the European Union’s highest court last week ruled that fear of imprisonment for homosexuality in African countries is grounds for asylum in the EU.”
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatches/globalpost-blogs/rights/uganda-gays-american-evangelicals-LGBT
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“We have a conservative period now in history — a substantial movement to the right around the world,” ~ James Paul, executive director of the Global Policy Forum in New York (1993 through the end of 2012); a member of the Academic Council on the UN System, and a prominent thinker on the globalization of the Christian right.
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“Uganda is a predominantly Christian country with Muslims being a minority.”
That does not mean that Christians in Uganda hold all the power.
Homophobia has not been “fanned by western evangelicals”, it has been fueled by the Aids epidemic and child sexual abuse. A big part of the laws being passed are designed to protect children because children are perceived as being less likely to have contracted Aids. Like it or not, that is reality on the ground. Homosexual or heterosexual, children are being victimized at an alarming rate because they are being perceived as safe sexual partners. Homosexuality becomes a death sentence for children who are exploited by older adults who have Aids. If you read the actual laws, it is a crime to exploit children or/and to spread aids. In the western world we are completely ignoring the realities on the ground in Uganda, completely ignoring the devastation being done to women and children because of the aids epidemic and instead, projecting our western values onto another country and attempting to reshape this as a gay rights issue.
Women and children are being raped and exploited at an alarming rate, often with a death penalty all their own which comes from contracting aids. Rather than trying to understand why Uganda is doing what it’s doing, we ignore those victims and declare the law unjust because it may interfere with the sexual behavior of men, ironically a very sexist and patriarchal view.
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I appreciate your empathy and compassion for women and children. Sadly, the Bible that has played a major role in the devaluing and dehumanization of women and children. Now people are turning this around and making gays and lesbians the scapegoats for the spreading of HIV/AID. Tell me, how often do straight men, who rape these women and children on a regular basis, get prosecuted and sent to prison in these anti-gay countries?
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” Sadly, the Bible that has played a major role in the devaluing and dehumanization of women and children”
Women and children are devalued and dehumanized all over the world, under Islam, under state governments, under poverty, in places of war and famine, and in communist countries. I disagree about the bible, I believe it has actually reduced the dehumanization of women and children.
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Under the commands of the Bible, as well. You speak as though you do not know your Bible.
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Btw, what is your opinion about this scripture? Do you approve?
“If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.” Leviticus 20:13
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I actually do know the bible very well. What you quote is not a commandment to kill homosexuals, it was simply a reality of the times, times when Christians were not actually the ones holding state power, writing laws, or executing people.
Do I approve of the bible being taken out of context and used to bully people? No.
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Out of context? Hardly. No more out of context than women being considered property of men to be ruled over. Yeah, the Muslims and Christians did some serious plagiarism, eh?
The Bible is a book full of hyper-religious, delusional bullies. If you knew your Bible as well as you say you do, you’d realize that. You’d also realize that you’d been duped by the cleverness of the RCC. Even psychopaths can be clever and deceptively charming. You know — Jesus’ daddy, the one he said we must worship if we are to be spared from hell.
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As your comment is either indeed insane, or wickedly disingenuous, here is a link from which others here may find the truth:
http://ccrjustice.org/ourcases/current-cases/sexual-minorities-uganda-v.-lively
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Did you know that Scott Lively actually denounced the Ugandan law and spoke against it in front of parliament?
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If he did so after he was sued, it is clear what the reason would be. Have you any link to what he said?
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You do know that the law is only for aggravated sexual assault against somebody under the age of 18?
Scott Lively spoke against it as being too harsh and said he would only support it if the death penalty was removed. It was in the NY Times and ABC news back in 2010. The lawsuit was filed a few years later. Here’s a rather poor link from NPR that basically says the same.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=121605529
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Mmm. They don’t want to kill people, at least. Just life imprisonment for consensual love-making.
2.
The of
fence of homosexuality.
(1) A person commits the offence of homosexuality if—
(a)
he penetrates the anus or mouth of another person of the
same sex with his penis or any other sexual contraption;
(b) he or she uses any object or sexual contraption to penetrate
or stimulate sexual or
gan of a person of the same sex;
(c) he or she touches another person with the intention of
committing the act of homosexuality.
(2) A person who commits an of
fence under this section shall be
liable, on conviction, to imprisonment for life.
Click to access Anti-Homosexuality-Act-2014.pdf
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Why do people always completely ignore the definition of “aggravated homosexuality?” This is a law that forbids forced sexual contact with minors, especially when such violence leads them to contract aids.
It completely puzzles me that an anti-child rape law is being touted as an anti-gay rights bill. Homosexuality involving consent is already illegal in 38 African countries, including Uganda. This bill simply introduces the concept of aggravated homosexuality, which if you read the definition is a rather atrocious thing that has become an epidemic in Uganda because they’re suffering from a cultural belief that the younger the sex partner, the less likely they are to have aids. Children are being sexually preyed upon at alarming rates and our western minds somehow manage to completely ignore this and just pretend the rights of homosexuals are somehow being infringed.
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I do not have to show that every single provision of that Act is vile and oppressive. I have shown section one. Section one is vile. Arguably, putting real sex crimes like child abuse in a statute which criminalises all gay sex is falsely confusing the two, so is also wrongful.
Most countries make child abuse illegal. That is unobjectionable. Making gay lovemaking criminal, with the punishment of life imprisonment, is wicked.
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Thank you for your link. Lively: It’s based on the public policy ramifications of mainstreaming something that I believe is destructive to society and harmful to individuals.
So, whatever, he incited the politicians to act. He did not want us to die? Well, I don’t want you to die, insanity, what do you think of that?
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InsanityB,
Do you think this is delusional? Is this Christian behavior you condone?
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That’s a stunning flower.
Hermeneutics: the practice (art) of interpreting scripture… a Game every church can play!
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It is rather lovely, isn’t it? You must have some near you, although the blue passion fruit flowers seem more common.
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Surprisingly, no. I know they hail from these parts but none of the avid gardeners around here have taken to them.
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Christians that argue strongly for either side probably either haven’t heard or don’t take seriously modern scholarship on the issue. If you have an hour to kill check this out:
If you have another hour to kill check this out:
I don’t expect you to watch these simply because I’m linking them. I’m just offering them as resources to you as your blog-following friend!
-Brandon
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Brandon, have you ever heard of Fr Thomas L. Brodie, and his book, Beyond the Quest for the Historical Jesus: Memoir of a Discovery? It’s fascinating. After examining the evidence for over 30 years he has concluded a historical Jesus never existed, yet he retains his faith, claiming Christianity can survive (and thrive) by becoming a wisdom tradition.
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Hey John. No, haven’t heard of him. Sounds very fascinating, I was under the impression that Jesus-mythers were an internet phenomenon that got under Bart Ehrman’s skin. I’ll have to look into it!
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An internet phenomenon? Seriously? I’m a historian with a whole lot of letters coming after my name and I can assure you that a whole lot of us question the concept of a historical Jesus. The best logical arguments from a technical perspective come from Richard Carrier.
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I’ve gotten into lots of Carriers other material but not Jesus myth arguments. What’s holding me back is Ehrman’s book, Did Jesus Exist. You can reject miracles, resurrection, etc. but to deny that Jesus existed is a claim on another level, much more difficult to sustain. Even Carrier admits this much. I remember hearing that he was reluctant to go the Jesus myth route at first.
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Only because once one takes that position publicly one becomes a target. I can tell you that from the perspective of a trained historian, the Jesus evidence falls far below accepted standards. The only reason it’s not questioned more openly and aggressively is the power of the Christian establishment.
Scientology was banned in some EU countries, but Christianity wasn’t. The difference between the two (technically) isn’t that big.
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I’m just very skeptical that any kind of establishment has that kind of power. If anything the opposite is true, academia is ruled by secularists who don’t give a rip about the historicity of Jesus. The fact that there are plenty of New Testament scholars who reject Christianity such as Ehrman and Gerd Ludemann yet think there was a historical Jesus is a testament to the evidence.
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Really? Do you have any idea of the hassle the reproductive scientists went through? My grandfather was one of them, so I know first hand.
Even Krafft-Ebing went through hell despite his work being heavily influenced by Christianity.
If Christianity was fair game, it would be considered a fraud by most legal standards – and yet it isn’t. What does that tell you?
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You are right about reproductive sciences, but history, humanities, philosophy, and so on are perfectly fair game. And, there’s not much noise out there about Jesus myth. I guess I can’t say much more than that about it. You say you are a trained historian and that there are closet Jesus-mythers out there, so I will take your word for it. I’ll take Carrier more seriously and hear his argument. I owe it to you and to him. But, I hope he addresses Ehrman’s arguments.
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Academically speaking, do you take Ehrman seriously? I classify him next to Niall Ferguson. Some people go mainstream successfully, but that doesn’t mean their work is up to standard- even if they sell a lot of books.
I’m a technical person. I do research, often for people who enjoy the spotlight. Mostly because they can use my name as a good reference. I’ve checked things out for a lot of people- Jesus-wise, I’m unconvinced.
He even fails the basic tests. Anyone of such alleged notoriety would have had considerably more references.
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Not all of Ehrman’s work is convincing to me. But, that’s not because I’m at your technical level, it’s more about what can persuade a layman like me. Your point about mainstream books not necessarily representing the academic mood is definitely agreeable.
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Mainstream doesn’t mean anything at all. Just have a look at history books from the mid 20th century back. Interest group propaganda plays a major role in the messages they deliver.
Countries with authoritarian regimes (i.e. Spain/Italy/Germany/USSR) did this quite openly and unashamedly, but it was also done in countries where people were free.
Period British & French history books are almost funny. Napoleon didn’t plunder Egyptian antiquities he ‘preserved’ them for the glory of both Egypt and France! Kings and Queens ruled by divine right. No evidence necessary for either claim.
Protestant vs. Catholic reading of things like the St. Bartholomew’s day massacre are also fascinating. Both groups constantly misuse the words defend/attack as a matter of fact.
When you read anything you have to keep in mind who is saying it, when and what their motivation could be.Take Catholicism/Early Christianity. Every single dogma, since their inception, has been politically reactive.
Prohibitions on incest, permission vs. prohibition on abortion, confession, then obligatory confession, the generalization of marriage, the ascension of the virgin, naming saints- every single one of those decisions has a political context; But their popularization depends directly on them being taken at face value.
On a related note, have you ever wondered about the heroization of certain professions? Poor, under-educated man X becomes a soldier. He dies on his first day on the front line. Did nothing but get shot, but receives automatic hero status that his family can cling to. What’s the psychological manipulation?
We make fun of the insane martyrs for Islam, but they’re operating on the exact same thought process. They were both fed delusions. That’s mainstream.
I gave soldiers as an example because it’s one of the universally accepted myths. But there are many, many others.
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Yeah these are good points and what makes historiography difficult and interesting (I’m sure you know!).
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I’ve got volumes of them 🙂
Why do women who are on the pill stop for a little while each month to menstruate when that has no medical benefit to them whatsoever?
Why is reality television a a success?
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Schoolfriends 40 years ago were taking the pill without a break to avoid periods when they went on holiday. But hey, we all want to be normal and have a blood for seven days a month.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-372565/New-Pill-eliminate-menstruation.html
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You should investigate the Clergy Project.
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I checked it out a while back. I listened to maybe 3 testimonies on YouTube. I think what they are doing is good, I mean providing an anonymous community for support and availing resources to redirect professionally.
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The major point is that many clergy are turning in the towel, recognising it is all tripe.
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John this must be an interesting book. I was checking what has been written about and found this
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Excellent. Neil Godfrey did a brilliant series of posts on the book. Here’s one, but i think there are five (maybe six?) other parts:
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Thanks John.
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Bit peeved to be point 2. Here is what we have to say about the Bible– especially 27.27-34. In 2011, the WBC claimed 40 members.
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Sorry! I did think you might be annoyed, but I know that opinion is so diverse among Quakers and I couldn’t find anything that was quite as positively accepting as the Universalist Church. Maybe it would be more accurate to be at Point 1.2? But then my scale wouldn’t look quite so pretty. 🙂
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We are diverse, especially worldwide.
And the “delusion” thing. I have religious or spiritual practices. Aware of the possibility of delusion, I seek to avoid it. I am agnostic about God as the Creator of the Universe, but I have experience of God.
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I’ll let you into a secret, I down-graded it to delusion from ‘lunacy’ because I didn’t want to get carried away on my comedy trip and offend nice people like you. It’s a delusion from the atheist point of view, you must recognise that. Is it not similar to you thinking we’re deluded for ignoring it or not accepting it?
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I don’t see you as deluded. I have a valuable experience. Perhaps you do not have it, or do not recognise it, or explain it otherwise.
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So, what I’m trying to say (still rambling here) is that any group is deluded to think they have the correct interpretation. You’re right, we know nothing of each others’ experiences.
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Quote from post to back up point, “Each Christian group interprets the words of their holy book quite differently, and this variance can be measured on a slippery sliding scale of religious delusion.”
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But- perhaps the Westboro bods are right!
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It would be odd if a creator deity only gave the light of truth to 40 of its creation of billions. But not impossible, I suppose …
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Anyway, you’re right I should have put more thought into the post. I started off with an idea of focussing on homosexuality but really it became more about each group claiming to have the correct interpretation of the Bible. I know the WBC is small, but it’s a true indicator of how the words in the Bible can seriously be used, and lies directly opposed to the interpretation the Universalists have.
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Just in case you can’t get enough of conservative Catholics, here is Congregentur (“They are gathered”, I think, not sure about the tense) who is “Loyal to Benedict XVI”. He doesn’t allow comments, though, you would have to ping him. He wants to close down Disney for perverting young minds: http://congregentur.wordpress.com/2014/03/18/frozen-disney-disgust-co/
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Love it! Am following.
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Do you think it might be satirical?
“Mostly, Atheist extremists are holding PhD’s in psychology and know exactly where to push the buttons to cause distress to our younger Christian generation and play out the weakness of decent people to try to convert them to the other side away from God. Children are innocent, and for Atheists, children are easy pray to lead them away from God.”
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There is an internet law for that, but basically extreme nutcasery looks like satire, and some people will mistake satire for the real thing. On a blog, especially an anonymous one, you can say things you would never dare say out loud. That is, after all, one main reason why I blog.
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I thought, Poe’s law, then I thought, isn’t that something to do with Hitler? Then I found it is indeed Poe’s Law: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Poe%27s_Law
You might like RationalWiki, not to laugh at but to engage with.
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I think it was you who directed me to Poe’s Law some time last year. Given the variety of odd blogs you’ve found I guess the topic was inevitable.
Did you notice your new friend has a done a post in our (I assume) honour?
“I find it psychologically interesting that LGBT people follow and read my blog. Do they want to convert to become Christians? I surely pray for them to get rid of the satanic forces perverting them.” What a charming chap! I don’t often get special welcomes from people I follow.
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What’s a Lavendar reader? I have no faith in people who can’t spell lavender correctly.
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Would you have had faith in him if he’d known how to spell it correctly? 🙂
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I took a peek. From his post, this stood out:
*”As Christian it is your duty, and also my duty, to pray for those people, for they are creatures of God and that the demonic forces will leave these people and give them back peace.”*
The words he used in his tags target the right amygdala (negative emotions, aggression, disgust, fear) in the brain. His tags ( Lavendar Mafia, LGBT, perversion, perverted, pink, gay) highlight his intent. I’m not gay, lesbian, bi, nor trans, but I have read about and witnessed untold suffering caused by these so called loving people of Jesus Christ. I saw one of my best friends, who was gay, bullied to the point that he plunged into the darkest depression — plagued with suicidal thoughts. He had his car vandalized 3 times within 6 months, and “FAG” spray-painted on the hood and sides. This happened shortly after he came out.
From PBS — Frontline: The Roots of Homophobia
*“[…heterosexism is not just a personal value system, it is a tool in the maintenance of gender dichotomy. In other words, through heterosexism, any male who refuses to accept the dominant culture’s assignment of appropriate masculine behavior is labeled early on as a “sissy” or “fag” and then subjected to bullying. Similarly, any woman who opposes male dominance and control can be labeled a lesbian and attacked.
The potential of being ostracized as homosexual, regardless of actual sexual attractions and behaviors, puts pressure on all people to conform to a narrow standard of appropriate gender behavior, thereby maintaining and reinforcing our society’s hierarchical gender structure.
Eric exemplifies how heterosexual males, once they have incorporated a heterosexist ideology, appoint themselves as agents for the control of sexual deviance.”*
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I think we can safely say that Congregentur has appointed himself as an agent as well. A hierarchical gender structure is clearly exemplified in the Bible and in all authoritarian religions, i.e. Christianity.
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