freedom from the state
Or it could simply be freedom people are worried about. As there is no right dependent on labor and efforts of others there is no right to healthcare.
As we live in an increasingly internationalised world, many countries share similar outlooks on freedom. Freedom of speech, freedom of movement, freedom of expression. Most of us agree our freedom doesn’t extend to allowing us to harm each other, and we are protected by civil laws in this respect: other people cannot legally harm our bodies, discriminate against us or tamper with our property.
However, there’s a big split in understanding of freedom that runs down the Atlantic Ocean and cuts along all the borders of the United States. In every developed country in the world, barring the USA, people have the freedom to receive universal health care. That means we have the freedom to seek treatment, regardless of our circumstances, when we have any health concern. That means we have the freedom to avoid seeing our fellow countrymen suffer and die of curable diseases, or go bankrupt trying to find the cheapest alternative, before they suffer and die anyway.
Some people in the USA like to think that freedom from the state means standing on your own two feet like an unprepared toddler. Staggering around determined you can cope on your own, and rewarding the toddlers with all the advantages of preparation that being born into the right family can give, while leaving those with less of a good start in life to take their chances and potentially fall.
We’re all responsible for our own lives! Yes, but we also naturally take responsibility for those round about us, and don’t assume that just because we personally could make it, we should leave those who are struggling, for whatever reason, to place their hopes in any sub-standard alternative they can scrape together.
A lack of universal healthcare isn’t freedom from the state. It’s a death sentence for many that should be on everyone’s conscience.
Americans truly don’t make any sense sometimes.
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Shh, be careful, some of the lurk round here and they won’t be pleased with your tarring brush.
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And that leaves your post as what, exactly? 🙂
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I wish that were true everywhere: Egypt Targets Both Islamists And Atheists —
But we’re in complete agreement on Universal Healthcare.
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Oh well, I did say ‘many’ countries, not all. Glad to hear you agree about universal healthcare, I hate arguing about this. In fact, not sure why I posted on it – probably to avoid getting out of a direct argument.
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Yes, Americans who vote against their own good are dumb-asses.
“Robin Sanders in Illinois. She was driving home when an officer pulled her over for having a loud muffler. But instead of sending her off with a warning, the officer arrested Sanders, and she was taken right to jail.
Sanders owed $730 on a medical bill. She says she didn’t even know a collection agency had filed a lawsuit against her. […]
A company will often sell off its debt to a collection agency, generally called a creditor. That creditor files a lawsuit against the debtor requiring a court appearance. A notice to appear in court is supposed to be given to the debtor. If they fail to show up, a warrant is issued for their arrest.
More than a third of all states now allow borrowers who don’t pay their bills to be jailed, even when debtor’s prisons have been explicitly banned by state constitutions”
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2011/12/13/388303/the-return-of-debtors-prisons-thousands-of-americans-jailed-for-not-paying-their-bills/
“In the latest example of aggressive debt collector tactics, an Illinois woman found herelf jailed over a bill she didn’t even owe in the first place.
Breast cancer survivor Lisa Lindsay of Herrin, Illinois was put in debtors’ prison over a $280 medical bill that was sent to her by accident, the Associated Press reports (h/t The Daily Mail). Even after Lindsay was told she didn’t have to pay the bill, it was sent to a collection agency. Eventually state troopers took her from her home in handcuffs. Lindsay ended up having to pay $600 to settle the charges.
Episodes like Lindsay’s are becoming increasingly common as the number of debts referred to third-party collection agencies has doubled since 2000. Because one third of U.S. states currently allow debtors to be imprisoned, thousands of Americans have been jailed because they can’t pay their bills.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/23/lisa-lindsay-breast-cancer-survivor-debtors-jail_n_1446391.html
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Three years ago, my daughter fell and hit her head. Her boyfriend took her to emergency room to make sure she was OK. At the time, she did not have insurance as she had just started a new job, and that required at least 3 months working for the company before she was approved. She didn’t take the Cobra insurance (extension offered when you are between jobs) because the premiums were through the roof.
They ran scans on her, and found no problems. But that wasn’t enough, no no, they ran up over $30,000 dollars on other tests totally unrelated to a possible head injury.
The collection agencies and their lawyers have been on her like white on rice, bullying and threatening lawsuits. Don’t even get me started.
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I might also add that they found no problems with my daughter’s health after they ran all those unnecessary tests. Some doctor(s) is living a cushy life, while my daughter is under major stress from the bullying of collection agencies.
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Glad to hear your daughter’s okay after all that, well, minus the terrible financial problems. It’s odd how many American’s are sold the ‘horrors’ of universal healthcare, given that the majority must know a close friend or member of their family who’s had terrible problems because it’s not there. How is it possible to indoctrinate people against something so basic and positive?
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“How is it possible to indoctrinate people against something so basic and positive?”
Given the fact that Christian fundamentalism is the dominant religion in the U.S., including the RCC, I’m assuming that’s a rhetorical question.
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Haha, but that’s indoctrinating people to something deceptively positive that appeals to our most basic need instincts. People get comfort and community out of religion. They get nothing about the absence of universal healthcare. Less tax?
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” but that’s indoctrinating people to something deceptively positive”
Yes, and people have been indoctrinated to believe that the government is evil and that universal health care is socialism, and well, you know — socialism is evil and will turn macho men of god into feminine wussies, i.e., the movements “The Pussification of America”.
Gasp — heaven forbid that we put the well-being of people first. No no — that’s being feminine (nanny state) and being feminine is, well, you know, is evil (Eve).
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I always knew universal healthcare was a New Feminist conspiracy!
And by the way thanks for taking up the discussion with Hewhohasnoname on the other post, I feel very relieved of the responsibility.
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Hah — I’m a glutton for punishment.
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And thank you for your thoughtful words regarding my daughter.
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Debt from medical bills is the number one cause of bankruptcy in the US:
http://www.cnbc.com/id/100840148
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That’s shocking! I think the absence of such a basic ‘right’ must make life so much more frightening and potentially disastrous. I don’t fear getting ill, beyond the obvious discomfort, but if I had to consider if I could afford it, I think it would terrify me.
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It is quite scary. Even with the advent of “Obamacare” it’s frightening. I’m fortunate TheBrit works for a company that is large enough to command a good group insurance plan at a reasonable price(though I’m not certain how much longer that will last – not the job, the reasonable rate). I work for a small company, and though they foot the entire insurance premium I opted out because before the insurance company would pay a dime I had to shell out $5,000.00 – $10,000.00 deductible. With hubby’s plan I only have to pay $750.00 up front.
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Ouch! That’s still a lot of money considering the premiums are covered. The whole set up is totally bizarre. I can see that health cover must be a big consideration when you’re looking for a job.
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Social irresponsibility? Freedom not to care about the other people, to use and abuse them, or even step on them in order to climb the social ladder? I agree whith you in so may words, they could not possibly fit here.
How can I subscribe to your posts? Previously I thought that you posted far too often for me to subscribe to your blog, but now that I would want to; I can not find a subscription link.
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How odd, Raut! I’ve never seen you have problems fitting your words on a screen. 🙂
I’ve added the ‘follow’ widget, just for you. (Don’t worry, I don’t post quite so frequently now and am likely to taper off soon.)
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“A lack of universal healthcare isn’t freedom from the state”
You do understand don’t you, that what we in the US are getting is not universal healthcare, but rather, state mandated indentured servitude to insurance companies? It may well be wrapped up in compassion, but it’s an incredibly cruel deception, especially for the most vulnerable among us.
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I hope you don’t mind that I’d put you in the conservative Republican box, and would have assumed you’d be against universal healthcare. “State mandated indentured servitude to insurance companies” sounds about right, nicely put. Perhaps that’s part of the problem – once there’s so much money and power tied up in a particular system, the kind of propaganda machine that goes into action to prohibit change is unstoppable.
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What I am Violet, is a woman who has worked very hard to build a tiny business, to raise four kids, to buy a home. My husband is a roofer, but me, I’ve spent every waking moment of my life serving the poor and the sick.
Everyday I see the pain and suffering they are going through because of Obamacare. They’re losing their insurance, their prescription drug coverage, their deductables are rising so high they often exceed their income.
My own insurance was completely canceled. My hours at my minimum wage job were reduced to under 30 to avoid the mandates. My husband was forced to lay off 3 employees. We now have nearly 20 grand in unpaid medical bills that we acquired WHILE INSURED. We’ve made it through all sorts of economic challenges over the past 30 years, but we can’t survive this. You win, Violet. You and your propaganda have completely crushed us.
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Ah, I misunderstood your original comment. I’m so sorry to hear about all of that. Of course if the United States had universal healthcare, none of you would have these problems.
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InsanityB — You do know there is a paranoia among the religious right that universal health care is considered a form of the evil socialism, right? And that the poor or disadvantage are sloths — lazy ass people who need to pull up their bootstraps.
“All success is earned success. They do not believe that luck or life circumstance play an important part in economic success. They believe that wealth and poverty are essentially moral categories, interchangeable with “hard work” and “sloth.” They decry government, but they don’t really oppose government per se. They oppose those government functions that transfer resources from the rich to the non-rich.” Jonathan Chait (New Republic & writer for New York Magazine
Republican House Whip Eric Cantor appeared on the Daily Show. Here’s what he said:
“That’s what America’s about. It’s about providing an even playing field for opportunity, not the government sitting here saying, ‘This person here’s too successful, this one’s not, I’m gonna take from this one and give to that one.’ That’s the principle. It’s earned success.“
And please tell me what the problem is here:
Click to access the_aca_helps_americans_with_disabilities.pdf
“Six Ways the Affordable Care Act is Helping Cancer Patients”
https://www.cancer.org/myacs/eastern/areahighlights/affordable-care-act-six-ways
The ACA is not perfect and kinks will need to be worked out. It’s baby steps because there is so much unfounded paranoia in America about universal health care as well as the extreme income equality gap that is the highest since 1928.
From the Pew Research Center
Fact Tank – Our Lives in Numbers
December 5, 2013
U.S. income inequality, on rise for decades, is now highest since 1928
“President Obama took on a topic yesterday that most Americans don’t like to talk about much: inequality. There are a lot of ways to measure economic inequality (and we’ll be discussing more on Fact Tank), but one basic approach is to look at how much income flows to groups at different steps on the economic ladder.
Emmanuel Saez, an economics professor at UC-Berkeley, has been doing just that for years. And according to his research, U.S. income inequality has been increasing steadily since the 1970s, and now has reached levels not seen since 1928. (The GIF file at the top of this post, created by Dorsey Shaw of Buzzfeed, compares growth in average income of the top 1% of Americans with everyone else.)
Using tax-return data from the IRS, Saez has built extensive income-distribution datasets going back 100 years. He defines “income” as pre-tax cash market income — wages and salaries; dividends, interest, rent and other returns on invested capital; business profits; and realized capital gains. He excludes Social Security payments, unemployment benefits and other government transfer payments, which are more substantial today than before the Great Depression.
In 1928, the top 1% of families received 23.9% of all pretax income, while the bottom 90% received 50.7%. But the Depression and World War II dramatically reshaped the nation’s income distribution: By 1944 the top 1%’s share was down to 11.3%, while the bottom 90% were receiving 67.5%, levels that would remain more or less constant for the next three decades.
But starting in the mid- to late 1970s, the uppermost tier’s income share began rising dramatically, while that of the bottom 90% started to fall. The top 1% took heavy hits from the dot-com crash and the Great Recession but recovered fairly quickly: Saez’s preliminary estimates for 2012 (which will be updated next month) have that group receiving nearly 22.5% of all pretax income, while the bottom 90%’s share is below 50% for the first time ever (49.6%, to be precise).
More than half (55%) of Republicans said the economic system is fair to most people, but majorities of Democrats (75%) and independents (63%) said it favors the wealthy.”
And which party are you loyal too?
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Thanks for the lecture on income inequality. Gee, while taking people to stand in line at the food bank today, I had no idea that poverty even existed. Thanks for enlightening me.
“The ACA is not perfect and kinks will need to be worked out.”
Thanks for the laugh. I guess I’m just one of those “kinks.” Maybe that’s my problem with Obamacare, I’m just not kinky enough to enjoy all the pain I see it causing.
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You didn’t answer my question.
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Seriously? No really, seriously? I just told you I am drowning in Obamacare, those I care a great deal about are drowning in Obamacare and you have to nerve to ask me, “And which party are you loyal too?” Is that somehow relevant to whether or not I get to enjoy any of this alleged freedom you are offering?
Have you ever considered perhaps unscrewing your umbilical cord from the propaganda mother ship and actually talking to some real live people who are experiencing these things first hand?
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InsanityB — Why won’t you answer the question?
“Some of those policies, about half, were restored when Obama administratively allowed canceled plans to continue for another year and later through 2016.
Many others were moved to new plans, either through their insurance company or by purchasing a new policy on the marketplaces set up for Obamacare. The administration estimated that of the people with canceled plans, just 500,000 were left without coverage, and catastrophic coverage was extended to those individuals.
That’s not to say this wasn’t a difficult ordeal for people who lost their plans, especially if they thought the law would allow them to keep their coverage. But most of them were able to find new plans.” http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2014/mar/18/john-boehner/john-boehner-says-more-people-are-uninsured-obamac/
———————————————–
I am sorry you are having a hard time — but if it will make you feel better, I am in far worse shape than you are. I lost my business shortly after the economy crash. And guess what — I’d been a business owner since the late 90’s and no one wants to higher someone who’s owned their own business — especially of you are a woman. I happened to live in a very Red state. A state that refused to extend Medicaid.
Now the reason I asked who you voted for was because I suspect you voted against your own best interests. Am I right?
And here’s a little history lesson for you. $3 trillion were spent on a war that we had no business getting into. And if you are not aware — that was a Republican president who said that his Christian god told him to go to war.
Again, I am profoundly sorry you are having such a hard time, but this is, for the most part, the result of a very dysfunctional Republican Congress who refused to work with the President in the best interests of the American people.
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Haha! Don’t get me started either. And this is from someone who worked in the NHS for ten years (I think). Everything is perfect in the land of the brave and the free and who cares about insurance companies making profit out of peoples’ ill health or poor people not being able to afford health care.
It is totally uncivilised. Perish the day it ever comes into the UK. I think there should be a rebellion. Seriously
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I know, it’s a concern that people could ever be convinced the other way here. The Tory government certainly does its best to paint the NHS as an impossibility whenever it can.
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There is basically nothing wrong with the NHS. The only problem is that people don’t want to pay for decent managers and that is what it actually needs. Basically, bossy people like me who say this needs doing and this is how we do it. Ergo, problem solved.
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I noticed hewho’s comment, and started a post, but all I could think of saying was, WTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTF
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Seriously? Were you inspired by it as well? I expect that means he planted it there for us. He’s controlling me!!!
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I feel the need to say what I mean by “Freedom”.
Challenging.
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People without a safety net have no freedom. They cling to the precipice and kick off other people in their way, in case they bring them down. It’s a survival instinct, and it makes for an insecure and self-centred society.
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I was thinking that, seeing others with no safety net, the observer has no freedom either.
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What do you call stomping on the fingers of those who are clinging to that precipice?
Ah, you call it mandated insurance with deductibles and premiums that exceed our income.
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Once again, I call it not having universal healthcare. Not having a reliable safety net. You seem to be missing the point, and I’m guessing it’s because you don’t actually understand what it’s like or what it means living in a country where you did turn up to the doctor when you feel like it, no insurance and no premiums required.
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Precisely. My best friend is from Denmark. He makes an appointment — shows up to his appointment and provides his medical card to be swiped. That’s it.
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We don’t even need ID here. You register with your passport or whatever if you’ve come from residence abroad, but after that you just give your name and ask for an appointment.
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Better, yet. 🙂
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Fantastic hyperbole and platitudes but again you have not addressed the fact of my comment. Can you do so with actual reasoning (hint you can’t)?
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I have no idea what you mean. In most countries I know, barring the US, there’s been a right to healthcare, and it gives us all much more freedom than you have. What fact were you referring to?
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Violet, I am stunned at the inhumanity I see towards the poor and those who have been hit hard due to the economy. Nearly every Republican state turned down the extended medicaid program which federal funding covers 90-100% of state costs It’s the Red states that have the highest poverty.
http://obamacarefacts.com/obamacares-medicaid-expansion.php
http://www.policymic.com/articles/85697/25-governors-are-executing-a-diabolical-plan-that-puts-17-000-lives-at-risk
Who will be accountable for these deaths?
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It’s all political games. Speaking of which, did you read about the one that misfired?
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Hah — brilliant find. Because of ACA — at least 10 million people previously uninsured now have insurance. The figures are expected to go much higher. Even better, these people will not be denied insurance because they reached their max coverage quota, and neither will they be denied insurance due to pre-existing conditions.
My question to these Republican Christians is WWJD?
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Correction: *groping
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LOL — oops, wrong thread. 😀 That was intended for your other post.
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Whether or not healthcare ought to be free or a right, we treat it as such with laws like EMTALA. If EMTALA is a just law, then what’s to stop us from progressing to some form of universal healthcare? This is why, even though I am mostly libertarian, I am sympathetic to individual mandate. It’s a rendezvous of choice and necessity.
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I did google EMTALA to try and understand what you mean. But I’m none the wiser in terms of your overall point. Briefly glancing at what EMTALA provides, I would imagine it puts care providers in horribly awkward positions – you stabilise someone for free and then what? Discharge them to die or receive substandard treatment somewhere else? Yikes.
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Well, it’s not that bad! “Stabilizing” might be significant medical care like cardiac catheterization or surgery. The point is that the spirit of this law is to say socioeconomic background should not effect medical care.
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So you need a law to make a doctor treat someone imminently dying? Doesn’t sounds like any doctor I know. 😉
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VW, there you go again, with your will making your reality. just because you call something a right does not make it so. It was once agreed by almost all that the world was flat, did not make it so. Saying many countries think it is a right is not an actual rational case. So again, can you or anyone else make a clear reasoned logical and rational case for why health care is a right?
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I think HWSNBN, the point is that it is a legal right in some countries. Not VW’s opinion, or mine, or wishful thinking, but health care provided by the state is enshrined in the law.
In the case of the UK, for example, people contribute to health care through national insurance payments, and the National Health Service also receives an allocation from the overall government tax pot.
This is not people’s views, this is law, there is a difference. A bit like civil unions and gay marriages are now law, not just wishful thinking. Is that a useful comparison?
I have been appalled by tales of American health care where people are struggling to find the cost for chemotherapy drugs, or their providers exclude so many services and treatment.
However I do agree with Violet. Why should health care not be a human rights issue? Are we such a sad society that we walk past someone in the street and don’t want to help? Do we not want to pay into a collective pot for the good of everyone? Do the poor not matter? Should people just die? Because that sounds awfully like what you are suggesting.
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I think he’s abandoned ship. It was too much effort thinking of ways to avoid the issues.
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oh. Boo. there was me so looking forward to a nice debate about the crapperies of the great American health care system. Serves me right for being late.
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I think Pink’s campaign to out them has scared him off.
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roughseasinthemed,
I hear what you are saying and I appreciate your polite and constructive tone. However laws do not make rights. Rights are a result of the nature of our existence. They are not granted by god or men or manifested by the laws they create. I have responded in more detail as to the nature and definition of right on VW’s other post titled What is a right?
Everyone matters, and I wish all people all the best. It is a question of how we do these things. And we can not do these things by sacrificing all we have achieved in our long journey out of the stone age.
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I don’t need to make a case of it because it’s accepted that it is a right in every other developed country in the world. The alternative is barbaric.
http://www.buzzfeed.com/lukelewis/if-breaking-bad-had-been-set-in-the-uk
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Touché
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Pingback: what is a right? | violetwisp
So the earth is flat being accepted by enough people makes it so. Ok then.
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My most recent post is dedicated to you.
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First things first: Every time I see your name, just at a quick glance, I read it as Hellhounds for some reason.
Secondly: The earth being flat or round is something that can be proven. Human rights are no so black and white so I have no idea how the flat earth argument pertains to healthcare. It’s apples and oranges.
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Ruth,
I kind of like that. I might change the name. Hellhound, or HellhoundtheartistformallyknownasHewhoshallnotbenamed. Ah a bit long isn’t it.
As to the earth healthcare as a right comparison, it was more a statement me on the fact that belief does not equate to fact and not a direct comparison. However rights are black and white and can indeed be proven.
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At the risk of sounding ignorant, where might these rights be found in black and white and how are they proven?
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Ruth, There has been much time put to the subject, in short by applying logic to observable facts actual rights can indeed be clearly defined. See my comment on VW’s post “What is a right?”
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