genuine love in action
Here’s my personal conclusion: people are not “born gay.” I think that there is a possibility that biology plays a modest role, but not necessarily a definitive role. I think social and emotional brokenness (hurt, rejection, trauma) contributes strongly to same-sex attraction. I think that experiences and choice play a part in “orientation.” I say “orientation” because it’s unlikely that someone’s sexuality is fixed from a young age, but rather becomes inflexible after being repeatedly reinforced (known as “neuro-pathways”) by choice and experience. You can disagree with me, but these deductions fit the individual stories of many who identify as gay and are supported by what little we know scientifically about homosexuality.
If homosexuality is cultivated by layers of social and emotional brokenness, it should drive us to lovingly listen listen listen to our gay friends and family. It should cause us to reel in those youth who are struggling with broken relationships at home or at school. It should motivate us as grown women to make every effort to seek out and embrace the “tom-boy” girl and for older men to affirm the little boy who can’t stand football but who loves to sing. It should prompt us to teach our children to include and stand up for others in their school, especially if they’re getting picked on. It should also lead us to do an honest self-inventory and seek forgiveness if we have possibly contributed to a gay person’s (or ANY person’s) brokenness.
If my theory is right, this kind of genuine love in action can have a life-long healing impact. If I’m wrong, this kind of genuine love in action can have a life-long healing impact.
This quote comes from a website that campaigns for gay people to be excluded from access to marriage, it campaigns for gay people to be denied any rights to parenthood, and it campaigns for gay people to be denied service by any religious group that finds expression of their sexual orientation offensive. The author of the blog belongs to a church that denies people in gay relationships access to membership, because they consider any kind of gay relationship to be a sin against their god. This kind of genuine love in action makes no sense to me, and I’m not sure what life-long healing impact it could have in any scenario.
Let’s look at the blog author’s theory:
- gay people can be ‘cured’ of gayness if adults treat them differently in childhood
If she is right, her gay adult friends, who have left their childhood cure hope behind, still have to live a celibate and lonely single life, ignoring any love they might feel, if they want to join her church. If she’s right, and sexual orientation can be tampered with through childhood experiences, how will we decide which orientation is the best way to go?
If she is wrong, sexual orientation is biological in origin and she still thinks it’s a sin to be in a same sex relationship.
Regardless of whether she’s right or wrong, she has campaigned to ensure that gay people continue to be discriminated against. She has campaigned to ensure that anyone with concerns about gay people as parents can quote her words as ‘someone’ who’s been there, rather than look at the overwhelming body of evidence that tells us same sex couples are just as good parents as heterosexual couples. She has campaigned to allow religious people to shun service to homosexual couples. She has encouraged people to hurt and insult their gay friends by refusing to attend homosexual weddings. She has campaigned to support Christian organisations to deny employment to homosexual couples. I personally don’t see any love in action in any of these actions, but maybe ‘genuine love in action’ means something different.
However, in the interests of fairness, I look forward to hearing about the outcomes of her discussion with Pinkagendist, and to learn more about the shades of grey that right now seem completely black and white to me.
Oh. I see. That doesn’t quite fit with the information I received on a personal level. It’s somewhat disturbing. I’m going to need a second to process the disconnect.
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She’s very consistent in listing out all the loving things she does for her gays friends and family. She’s fairly consistent in her loving tone throughout discussion. But ‘disconnect’ is the word. None of her words or reported actions make sense in the context of what her website sets out to achieve. That’s why when you suggested the whole thing might be a sham, I was sure you were right. You should really read through her whole site if you have time. At the very least, she’s a damaged individual with a serious grudge that she can’t face head on, and this version of Christianity gives her an ‘acceptable’ front to air her pain. On the other hand, it is possible that her loving tone could positively affect the wildly prejudiced views of some sectors of American Christian society. But I’m more inclined to think they just see as proof that gay people shouldn’t be allowed to marry or have children – given the comments on the website.
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I published her answer to me. It sounds genuine. I’m hoping there was a bit of an error in how things were being framed in the past, and that perhaps that will change.
I don’t believe anyone needs to agree with me on everything, I’d be happy if she could convey what she said to me to others (and in her writing).
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Yes, lets see.
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Marriage is ordered to human nature which is male and female.
All gays are either male or female.
That means that gay marriage is an absurdity that seeks to deny human nature.
Once we deny human nature, equality and justice go out the window.
Since gay marriage is an assault on human nature all people, including gays, are called to reject it because it an abuse of everyone’s humanity
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Yes, much like any form of breeding. Creation should only be at the hand of the Almighty Creator. But even he can’t drum up a wife to show us he’s allowed to.
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Wisp,
My argument against gay marriage is based on common sense, basic philosophy and Biology 101.
Religion isn’t helpful to this type of discussion.
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I don’t think you want the god God to overhear you making such offensive claims. Biology IS religion.
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Wisp,
Biology is science.
Catholicism is a religion.
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If that’s what you need to tell yourself, that’s fine.
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What? “atheism is causes the death of civilized culture and diversity”? “gay marriage is an assault on human nature”?
What is your purpose here, SoM? Do you think you will convince anyone?
I go on ranty anti-gay blogs. On some, I seek to engage, if it seems they might hear argument about human nature, or the Bible, or morality. On others, I just mock- they bewail something the Wicked Gays have done, and I say “Thank you for sharing this good news”. I will not get through to them, but I want them to know their ridiculous opinions are not universal.
If you are seeking to engage, here, you need to make an argument with rather fewer holes than this one. Are you seeking to engage, but doing so incompetently?
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He’s looking for outraged attention. “Don’t feed the troll” sign comes as standard. He’s fun to play with but not worth any emotion.
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Wisp,
Why do atheists call anyone with a brain, a troll?
Name-calling by adults is barbarism.
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Sorry SOM, I talking about John. We must have got our wires crossed. 😳
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Wisp,
Well, John can tell you what a sensitive fellow I am.
I always shed tears whenever he calls me a troll.
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What would John know? He’s not really your friend SOM. Ask the god God what Jesus would do.
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Violet – snort of the day award immediately comes your way for that one. Excellent! (you could have got it for the previous one, but this was better(.
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Clare,
I explained my claims in the comments.
Atheists demand conformity of thought and expression as you demonstrate so well.
It is the duty of all civilized people to reject such tyranny.
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SoM – Clare is Christian.
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Not sufficiently for us.
One thing I have learned from seeking to engage, which seems obvious when you say it but took learning, is that we don’t share the same assumptions. So, on sites you agree with you can say something like Atheism causes the death of diversity, and people will nod, and get it. And here, I can say that acceptance of gay people is beneficial for everyone, as it allows people to flourish and develop our talents for the good of all, and again people will nod approvingly.
You haven’t said anything that would persuade anyone with a tincture of doubt about your own position.
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Clare,
Atheism causes the death of civil society because all great civil societies grew up around religion.
That’s a fact, not an assumption.
The greatest mass murders in human history where committed by atheists.
That’s a fact, not an assumption.
Atheists believe in the ridiculous notion that everything happened all by itself.
That isn’t an assumption, that’s what the great atheist physicists Stephen Hawking, Michio Kaku et all, say.
Atheists believe in global warming which is a proven hoax.
That’s a fact, not an assumption.
Atheists believe in the absurdity that government can be used as an agent of social justice.
That’s a fact proven over and over and over again in every culture, at any time, not an assumption.
If you want me to explain the facts, I am always happy to do so.
But atheists have the habit of doing what you just tried to do with me:
That is, redefine a word like “fact” into “assumption.”
Assaulting and maiming language is what atheists do in lieu of reasonable arguments.
That’s a fact, not an assumption.
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Climate change is a fact, not an assumption.
We’re still talking past each other. You have not said anything persuasive.
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Claire,
Climate change is a proven hoax.
Remember when it was called “global warming.”
Even the head hoaxer finally admitted that there has been no global warming for over 17 years.
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Oh please don’t tell me they believe in Pray the Gay Away!? Sweet Veles, these people are Michelle Bachmann grade crazy! I truly feel sorry for the rational folk in the US who have to listen to this nonsense. Don’t they know they’ve made the US the laughing stock of the world?
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John,
It is President Obama who has made America the laughing stalk of the world.
And Secretary of State Kerry is Moe Obama’s Curly Joe.
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Out of interest, SOM: have you ever travelled outside the States?
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Extensively.
When I walk the streets of Mexico City or hitch hike the byroads of some South Sea Island the natives say that I speak both Spanish and French with an Italian accent.
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So, you’ve been to Mexico?
What “south sea” are you referring to? Please, be specific: where have you travelled, when, and for how long?
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John,
I learned Spanish when I lived in Argentina.
That’s where the Italian accent comes from.
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So, no actual south sea islands, but you’ve been to Mexico and Argentina. What were you doing there?
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John,
I don’t need to pass muster with a provincial atheist.
Atheists think the same the world over, no matter the culture, country or language.
It is through my travels that I learned that atheism is causes the death of civilized culture and diversity.
Sorry Latin America isn’t good enough for you.
You are obviously white and Eurocentric.
By the way, chasing women on all those unnamed South Sea islands did wonders for my French.
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So you had a holiday where, then? Tahiti? One week? I’ve been there. What island were you on? How did you find the driving?
And SOM, i’m in Brazil.
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John,
The wily and oh so charming American hitchhiker often gets invited home for weeks on end.
And like a good Marine I’d do a body check every day disinfect all my wounds.
The tropic jungle is brutal and unforgiving.
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Oh, you were in Nam, then?
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John,
Clearly you are a man of stereotypes.
Anyone who advocates traditional marriage is a racist, sexist, bigot, homophobe, war criminal US Marine who murdered the innocent acolytes of Saint Ho Chi Min.
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Yes, and George “Mission Accomplish” Bush was a learned and great leader who gained the respect of the world.
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John,
If anyone messed with W, he hunted them down like rats and exterminated them.
Just ask Saddam Hussein, his sons Uday and Qusay, and 10’s of thousands of dead terrorists.
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Oh look John, there is a whole flutter of butterflies there. Anyone who spends as much time visiting peoples’ blogs should have worked out by now that you are in Brazil, and that you come from Joh Bjelkeland. Neither of which are exactly Eurocentric.
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You know of our beloved peanut farmer ruler!!?? Impressed, I am 🙂
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I did get married in Australia in the 80s. How could I not have heard of him? Had a colleague (from Victoria) back in the UK who refused to visit QLD while he was in power.
I have a cousin who lived in São Paulo for years. Her husband had shares in a brothel and ran off with one of the employees. I hope that is equally impressive. Idiot features me never took up the chance to visit though (Brasilia not the brothel) as I was too busy in Aus. Eso va la vida.
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SP is a living hellhole, and we loved Joh. The rest of Oz was just jealous because they didn’t have a clown 😉
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But still, I think Aus has made up for it since. Seem to have been plenty of clowns in the last few years from what I read. As there are in Spain, the UK, America, France, you name it really.
Joh Bjelke was a product of the times. Different clowns for different years. He was always a good talking point though, as was Bob Hawke. I’m showing my age aren’t I? 😀
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What other country can claim a PM who had the world beer sculling record?
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Hey that’s why you elect someone isn’t it? (I can think of worse credentials – would you like the list? No, I thought not).
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Where did you live in Argentina SOM? I learned Spanish there too and I don’t speak with an Italian accent.
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Pray away? Sounds more like wishing away. If women affirm tomboys and men affirm boys who want to sing the world will be cured of homosexuality.
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Very funny! We had a documentary on about curing gays a few weeks ago. I saw clips but couldn’t bear to watch the whole thing. One popular ‘therapy’ is/was aversion therapy.
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/undercover-doctor-cure-me-im-gay/episode-guide
Ironically enough, the doctor doing the documentary is called Christian.
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“self-styled healers who believe that they have the ‘cure’ for the ‘illness’.”
That’s it in a nutshell, isn’t it. The religious love the “cure” business, and what better than to make up an “illness.”
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“…they consider any kind of gay relationship to be a sin against their god..”
I’m not speaking for all Christians here, Violet, but it is impossible to “sin against God.” We sin against ourselves. It may grieve God to see us sin, but we are incapable of sinning “against God.” Our sin cannot touch God, He’s holy and pure. Also, we don’t have the power to impress or surprise God with our assorted creative sins, He’s already seen it all.
It seems to be a common theme of yours that Christians serve this authoritarian dictator who is easily offended and can be sinned against like you would sin against a political party. God is not up for election like a political candidate who needs to collect approval ratings.
Also, do you ever wonder if all your focus on alleged hatred and bigotry does more harm than good? It seems to me that the constant focus on people’s alleged hatred could easily become a self fulfilling prophecy and present itself as internalized homophobia. It’s a bit like running around and telling people, “she doesn’t love you, she hates you! Everybody hates you! You live in a world full of hatred because you’re gay!” Sometimes I think the obsessive focus on social justice and the alleged white knighting of so called persecuted groups is even crueler and more bigoted then flat out bigotry.
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You seem to be misleading us here. Sin is defined as, in the context of the Abrahamic religions to which you belong,
The rest of the statement makes no sense. The christian is doing everything in his power to bribe his way to heaven. It is an attempt to please god either through asceticism or deeds. If this were not the case, why would you be going to church? You will tell me thanksgiving. But still this is bribing god.
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Gutu,
Central to the Christian religion is the doctrine of grace.
It is only by grace that man enters heaven, not by his works.
Thinking that man can bribe his way to heaven is in fact, a well known heresy.
So your claim about Christians is false, to put it mildly.
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Som I realize you really would like to interact with me, I have no interest in talking to you if you can’t get my name correctly.
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Maybe you could see fit to get my name correctly also.
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As ever, Insanity, thanks for your unique perspective on this discussion. I’ll try and come back to sinning against the god God because that seems a minor point. Sinning to to pain and offence of the god God would maybe seem more appropriate for you.
“do you ever wonder if all your focus on alleged hatred and bigotry does more harm than good?” This is interesting, because I do wonder about things like this. We can never trace the effects our actions have on other people, we can only assume the most logical series of events will happen and hope for the best. As for internalised homophobia, I’ll keep an eye out for it.
“Sometimes I think the obsessive focus on social justice and the alleged white knighting of so called persecuted groups is even crueler and more bigoted then flat out bigotry.” I can’t agree with you here. What’s cruel about this post? I’m stating facts about Askthebigot’s website.
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Here’s my personal conclusion: people are not “born straight”. I think there is a possibility that biology plays a modest role, but not necessarily a definitive role. I think social and emotional brokenness (hurt, rejection, trauma) contributes strongly to opposite sex attraction.
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Agnostic,
Heterosexuality is from nature.
Sexuality, male and female evolved in nature for the purpose of producing more genetically robust offspring.
Human nature is male and female.
All homosexuals are male or female.
The makes homosexuality contrary to human nature, a disorder.
It is irrelevant whether such a disorder is hereditary or not.
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How can you say that something that is hereditary is not “from nature”?
All things are “from nature” technically speaking. And speaking of technicalities, it is not true that human nature is male & female. Like most things in nature, there are exceptions to the norm.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermaphrodite
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Agnostic,
All sorts of disorders exist.
The reason they are disorders is because they are counter to the nature of a thing.
It is the nature of living things to be healthy.
Disorders aim at destroying health.
Homosexuality is an obvious disorder chiefly because if everyone were homosexual mankind would go extinct.
That means that homosexuality is a profound disorder and all efforts to normalize it must be fought tooth and nail.
That does not mean that homosexuals should be treated poorly as everyone merits respect.
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By your line of thinking I could declare the writings of the Apostle Paul a disorder.
If everyone followed his advice to not marry, then mankind would go extinct.
How about Jesus’ teaching to cut off your hand or pluck out your eyes if they cause you to sin?
How does that promote health?
You’re thinking is too dualistic in my opinion. Nature and many other things are not just an either/or (right/wrong).
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Agnostic,
You have committed the logical fallacy of moving the goal post (changing the subject).
Let us save the teachings of Saint Paul for another day.
That homosexuality is a disorder is obvious whether regardless of religion.
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I disagree that same-sex attraction is a disorder or that your conclusion is obvious. If I did, I wouldn’t be having this discussion.
I haven’t changed the subject, I was trying to illustrate that your examples of why you think homosexuality is wrong is not consistent with your point of reference (the Christian Bible). That your own line of logic could lead to similar conclusions about the Bible and it being a disorder.
Nice try…
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Agnostic,
If you believe in evolution you have to believe that homosexuality is a disorder.
And a condition that would lead to extinction is a grave disorder indeed.
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“If you believe in evolution you have to believe that homosexuality is a disorder.”
No I don’t
“And a condition that would lead to extinction is a grave disorder indeed.”
You are making a huge assumption. How do you know this would be the end result?
Many Christians have chosen to be celibate. Again, by your logic, since if everyone chose celibacy we’d go extinct-then it must be a grave disorder.
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Agnostic,
Homosexuals cannot procreate.
Procreation is how any species continues.
If everyone were homosexual no babies would be born.
The entire human race would wink out of existence in less than a century.
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homosexuals can procreate…I’ve known quite a few that have their own biological children.
Again-if everyone Chose Christian celibacy (something the scriptures recommend) isn’t the same outcome evident (extinction) ?
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Actually, Christian Agnostic, I think that may have been Paul’s intention. He thought Christ was coming back in his lifetime. What would have been the point of procreation?
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I agree.
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Regarding:
How about Jesus’ teaching to cut off your hand or pluck out your eyes if they cause you to sin?
Jesus was using a rhetorical device called hyperbole.
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How do you know that?
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Bible study.
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SOM, why are you attacking a Christian?
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Wisp,
How can saying that I studied the Bible be an attack on another Christian?
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Exactly.
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By your reasoning, silenceofmind, should efforts to “normalize” autistic people or people with Down’s Syndrome be fought tooth and nail. There is no cure for it. It is a disorder. Should they be marginalized because they have a disorder?
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Ruth,
Autistic people are not trying to redefine marriage around their disorder.
Gays are in the process of bullying an entire culture into accepting their sexual disorder as normal, “or else!.”
We just saw what they did to Eich, former CEO of Mozilla, for having the audacity to contribute $1000 to Prop 8 in California.
That kind of fascism is an example of how gay rights mean the death of all human rights.
The first human right to go at the hands of the gay fascists is the freedom of speech.
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Ah, but you fail to point out that even gay-rights supporters are condemning that action.
Eich, whether we like his position or not, has every right to contribute personal funds and campaign for any position he likes. On that you and I can agree.
Sometimes Christians and non-Christians alike get it wrong.
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Ruth,
Justice for Eich would be reinstatement as CEO of Mozilla and an apology from the gay fascists.
Since neither of those are ever going to happen, the gay fascist condemnation of what happened to Eich is a self-serving lie.
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Silenceofmind,
I agree with you that he should be reinstated and an apology given.
Since anything short of everyone converting to Catholicism is a lie and fascism in your mind there is no good that can come from me debating the issue with you. I even tried to find a point of agreement and that is a lie to you.
If the only position you can hold is that anything that doesn’t agree with you is a fascist lie I don’t think anything productive can come of discussion.
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Ruth,
Don’t blame the Catholics for the wicked actions of the gay fascists.
You think that just because you personally feel that an injustice has been done then everything is okay.
The gay fascists will continue sodomizing civil society until all human rights are destroyed.
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I’m not sure where I said that “because I personally feel that an injustice has been done then everything is okay.” That was neither stated directly nor was it implied in my statements.
I do not have the authority to reinstate the CEO of Mozilla. If I did he would have a job. If I did I wouldn’t have accepted his resignation in the first place.
As for the gay fascists sodomizing society: has it ever once occurred to you that if they had equal rights this wouldn’t have happened in the first place?
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Ruth,
If a gay CEO was sent packing because he was gay, you would be screaming from the roof tops.
But since the shoe is on the other foot, it’s ho, hum, the gay fascists apologized and did absolutely nothing, but that’s okay.
Atheists prove time and again that they are driven by personal bias, not any sense of right or wrong or equal justice for all.
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SOM, you never said what part of Argentina you lived in. Lovely Catholic values abound there. Most of the population is superstitious to core and knows nothing about the Bible. Did you find that too?
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Wisp,
I attended an all boys Catholic school.
One time our class went off to a church sponsored retreated located out of town.
The retreat was so disturbing that my Argentine brother and I pulled off the Great Escape and went home where we spent the weekend attending meetings of various political parties.
Yes, we caused a scandal.
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silenceofmind,
I don’t shout from roof tops. So, that isn’t a thing I would be doing. This has happened to gay people. They have lost their jobs upon being discovered to be gay or denied positions because they are gay. I haven’t screamed from the rooftops about that. I don’t agree with it.
The pushback from gay rights activists isn’t always right. But pushback it is because they are tired of being marginalized by people like you. Does that make this CEO losing his job right? No, it does not. Frankly, I don’t think it helps their cause at all.
You are entitled to believe what you like about atheists or gay people. You have the right to be wrong if you want to.
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Ruth,
You are trying to justify the gay fascist action against Eich because injustice was committed by others.
That is yet another example of your bias.
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silenceofmind,
Do you know how to have a conversation without demeaning or belittling or twisting the other person’s position?
This is the way with Christians the world over. They lack the ability to reason or have rational discourse.
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Ruth,
Point out bias is not a personal attack.
Arguments based on bias are inherently irrational.
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“Arguments based on bias are inherently irrational.”
Exactly!
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Ruth,
I am glad you became aware that I did not make a personal attack.
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And somehow you think that continuing to deny gays equal rights will make this problem better. Just like women and blacks had to push for equal rights, so must they. Or do you also think that women and blacks should not have equal rights?
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Ruth,
There is no such thing as gay rights.
How is one man pocking his penis into another man’s anus a basis for human rights?
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You’re sad SOM. If I was ever inclined to delete comments this one would go straight in the bucket. But it stands testament to either your mind or your poor sense of humour.
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Wisp,
Wiping out my comments because they describe truths that you find inconvenient is an example of gay fascism.
I am simply stating the facts.
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I don’t delete comments – where did you read that?
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Although I love it when men talk about gay rights and inevitably forget women exist.
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Gay people would disagree.
Why are you so obsessed with where men put their penises? The only person’s penis you have any business being concerned with is your own, if you have one.
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Ruth,
Of course gay people would disagree.
But disagreeing with truth and justice is what fascists do.
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You didn’t answer my question.
Why do you care where anyone else puts their penis?
Is anal sex natural between males and females?
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Then I submit that Christians the world over are fascists, heartily disagreeing with truth and justice. For they attempt to apply their truth and justice to the whole of society. This was never the purpose of Christianity.
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Ruth,
That Christianity is good has been proven because it powered the rise of Western Civilization, the greatest civilization in human history.
Christianity teaches the greatest set of objective ethics ever known to mankind.
Atheism does away with objective ethics by forming ethics out of personal opinion driven by personal bias.
We know from Plato’s Republic that such ethics (atheist gay fascist ethics) lead to justice being to the advantage of the strong.
Plato makes it clear that the advantage of the strong is ruthless tyranny.
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Okay.
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You still evaded my questions:
You didn’t answer my question.
Why do you care where anyone else puts their penis?
Is anal sex natural between males and females?
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Ruth,
I don’t care where someone puts their penis.
I object to the penis being put into another man’s anus for sexual pleasure being the basis for human rights.
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(why are you courting this nonsense? Not that I mind, but I thought you’d found the perfect way of dealing with him – I was inspired!)
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I’m just toying now. 😀
His nonsense has become comical.
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Did you just want to type ‘anus’?
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It was fun!
I did find this interesting, though I realize wikipedia isn’t the end-all-be-all.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_same-sex_unions
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That is interesting. I wonder if it’s all true – I would have thought it would be more widely touted, and I haven’t seen it coming up in arguments about marriage.
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Yes, that’s why the disclaimer about wiki. Anyone can edit it.
I want to dig a bit deeper. Just short on time at the moment.
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Just a cursory google search turned up this:
http://www.catholicworldreport.com/Item/1367/gay_marriagenothing_new_under_the_sun.aspx
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Though, I was pretty much done with that last one.
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My dog is an albino. That is regarded as not ‘normal’. He is in a minority group of dogs. He was thrown out in a rubbish bin because someone didn’t want him. He is perfectly healthy. He can’t increase the pigmentation in his skin. I accept him as he is. What is the issue with accepting homosexuality?
(For anyone who can’t work it out, there is a parallel there)
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Diversity is the major objective of sexual reproduction.
Whether a creature is albino is completely irrelevant.
Whether a creature can reproduce is the topic.
Procreation is impossible for homosexuals. That’s why homosexuality is a grave disorder.
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Procreation is not all. Personally I don’t care if the human race goes extinct, as do other species. It’s hardly a good example.
An albino is regarded as unnatural. Queer. Not like the rest of us. It is not irrelevant.
If you only value people in terms of whether or not they can reproduce we might as well be living in caves. Some people have other attributes and skills to offer.
Infertile people do not reproduce. Do they have a grave disorder? Why should they be allowed to marry? Would you like a fertility test to be carried out before people marry? Would you like people who choose not to breed to be forgiven from marrying? Would you like women to endlessly breed so that they die in their mid 40s worn out by endless childbirth? (as used to happen).
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Rough,
Nature is not personal nor is it subject to our personal opinions.
Nature has evolved creatures that reproduce sexually.
Procreation is accomplished by male and female.
Skin color, eye color, tall or short are not sexual attributes or components.
Homosexuality makes reproduction impossible therefore it is a disorder.
The reason you can’t see the obvious is because you’ve been indoctrinated to believe a bunch of nonsense.
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At least I indoctrinated myself with my own nonsense so I take full responsibility for that.
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Rough,
You claim to be a credentialed journalist.
That means you were subject to years of indoctrination.
I was a school teacher who was trained to indoctrinate students.
The method is simple and only takes a few seconds.
I didn’t use the method because I wanted to nurture the humanity of my students.
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I do not claim to be anything I am not. I am a qualified journalist. That is a fact. As you don’t know anything about my training unless at some point you have managed to achieve an NCTJ proficiency certificate in the UK, I would suggest you don’t know what you are talking about.
I’m glad to hear about your careful nurturing of your students.
It’s been nice chatting but I’ve got to dash now and do some really important things like my trivia quiz of the day on sploofus. Catch you later 🙂
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Hi christianagnostic, you seem to echo Askthebigot’s opinion on this. I’ve never heard anyone use the term “social and emotional brokenness” before. I expect the same proportion of homosexuals as heterosexuals experience something along these lines. I don’t find ‘broken’ a particularly useful word to throw around in relation to anyone.
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Ooh…I thought CA was being cheeky…giving irony a spin.
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If that’s the case, CA does deadpan like a master!
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I think he does. Did you not recognize that he used the same terminology and turned it around, using “straight” and heterosexual?
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Haha 😀 Thanks for pointing that out. Deary me. Shows how carefully I read things. 😳
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… and I read it three times. Does this mean I read what I want to read and am always looking for an argument?
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Lol…I doubt it. 😀
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Though I am surprised you didn’t recognize his Violet-style of turning the argument around.
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😳
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Turn that frown upside down, girl! 😀
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(VW takes back her initial comment after Ruth points out I hadn’t actually read it correctly)
Yes, me too!
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no problem 🙂 My deadpan is much better detected when in person. Thanks to Ruth for pointing out my intent.
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Violet, you are far more inclined to give people the benefit of the doubt than I am (for example IB), but even I couldn’t have written such an acerbic summary.
On the other hand, I have no interest in reading email discussions between two people. A bit like I have no interest in what people do together behind closed doors, regardless of what sex they are or how many of them there are. Or whether they leap from the wardrobe. So long as they are consenting adults it’s their business.
I will however, be impressed should GCS suddenly change policy and decide to not only welcome homosexual married couples, but also agree to marry them. That would be a step forward. In the meantime, I too consider it to be fairly black and white. Oh out of four blog comments from her, three have been rude 😀 My name should be Ark I suspect.
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Was it acerbic? It seemed factual to me. Point me to where it’s unpleasant and I’ll work on my wording next time. Who’s IB?
That’s interesting she’s been rude to you. The mask slips slightly sometimes, and it shows what hard work the loving front must be. I am beginning to think she’s trying to be sincere though. When I first came across her site I was so appalled I did genuinely think her story was probably a sham, or at least her ‘loving’ attitude was fictitious. But I think she might be trying her hardest to fit her bitterness, her love and her religion into one space.
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It was factual which was why it came across as beautifully acerbic. To me anyway. I liked it, so ergo it must be acerbic 😀
insanitybytes
only three times, she was polite the second time
what is sincere? at a personal level I am bored with being insulted by her, at a societal level I dislike her discrimination
people may choose to join in the lovefest but count me out.
sometimes first impressions are the best ones …
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Ah, beautifully acerbic sounds much better (although I’m still mildly concerned). Insanitybites is fascinating. I never quite understand what she means but my perspective on my posts gets thrown into a new dimension, which I think is very useful. I need to remember to follow her blog actually. I was so disgusted by it when I first went that I couldn’t bear to click the button. You’d be horrified by what she says about women.
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As I said, perhaps just my take on it, but if you are concerned throw a little saccharine over it.
I am. I have read.
After my dalliance with the dark side (ie religious blogs) I shall go back to reading about people who live in different countries so I can learn about different cultures, some travel blogs, people who rescue animals, political blogs (violently left wing of course which will confirm SoM’s prejudice), a few personal blogs (some of which are gay which isn’t why I read them, I read them because they are interesting and nice people) and I may dip into the odd atheist blog.
My tolerance level has blown. I don’t need to read any more of this anti-women anti-gay tripe. I have read enough, that I could now set up a blog and write the same, in fact it would be easier than writing my own blogs. They all seem to have such a hang-up about sex too. Odd.
Been there, read that, better things to do with my time.
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Have fun!
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Incidentally in your browse around atb’s site did you read this one?
Is this a man who can lead me and my future children spiritually?
Is this the woman I want to become my lifelong partner and raise my children?
Great stuff. A woman is so incapable that she needs a man to lead her spiritually within the realms of fairyland. And the woman is reduced to the role of breeder as usual.
Perhaps I may do a beautifully acerbic Violet-style post at some point when I get bored with writing about real life.
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There we go, that’s more like it! A beautifully factual Violet-style post. 😀 There’s always something to get your feminist bone itching in Christianity. Here’s a nice one for you:
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Damn, the tongue sarnie site has gone. Now I am so intrigued about trying to get into your pants 😦
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I hope someone may have noticed that it is only male homosexuality which is specifically mentioned and condemned in the bible. Female homosexuality is not mentioned, except for a vague allusion from Paul the wannabe “apostle”.
On a second thought it looks like female “bisexuality/homosexuality” seem to have been fairly normal, mentioned nevertheless only in a rather negative context, i.e. Solomon’s making justice in the case of the accidentally suffocated child. The two women seem to have been prostitutes, living together and sharing the same bed.
The intricate sensitivity of a female soul makes it much easier to sometimes attach to a likewise tender soul. This goes as far as sometimes transgender females fell in love with other females only after their transition from male to female…
As for the delicate world of emotions involved in a male homosexual love relationship, a heterosexual might understand only glimpses of this fascinating attachment. And lack of understanding shouldn’t at all exclude respect and consideration.
As for the whole rant about when does an individual start to consciously identify with their sexual desires, christians shouldn’t even be considered in a discussion, because ALL they want is to present in a politically correct way, both their resentment against homosexuality, and their superiority of their self-righteousness.
What I found hard to understand even as a former minister, is this stupid fuss about marriage, an “institution” invented to give means of control over members of a group, religious or secular. If I’d have to do it again, I’d never go to any religious moron to “bless” my love for my wife/partner, nor to a civil servant for the same. I am actively encouraging my children to chose wisely a partner for a lifelong commitment, without any “marriage”…
Also to avoid having children, as this world has become totally unfit for raising children. Live to the full, love from the heart, leave when time has come…
We should be ashamed to still be in need to be told as humans, that liberty and freedom are first of all individual rights, and only after that, collective, and that no collective has any right to demand, enforce, coerce any demands concerning the sexuality of individuals, except for when this becomes an offence against the individual rights of other individuals.
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“As for the whole rant about when does an individual start to consciously identify with their sexual desires, christians shouldn’t even be considered in a discussion, because ALL they want is to present in a politically correct way, both their resentment against homosexuality, and their superiority of their self-righteousness.”
An excellent point, they can’t possibly approach any investigation into sexuality from a scientific perspective – their whole outlook is inherently biased. The use of ‘broken’ reflects this from the outset.
I agree with you about marriage and children, although I don’t think the world has become unfit in any way, I just think the responsibility of playing russian roulette with another sentient being’s consciousness should dissuade anyone from breeding. But I also know that life isn’t that simple and our animal instincts are often stronger than logic.
I did a post recently on lesbianism, I’d be interested in your thoughts, as I wasn’t aware of the other biblical references you mention:
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Thank you Violet. I admire all those willing to still see anything good in this world. I don’t, even though on an emotionally conscious level, I still do feel some good in it, and this throws my “pursuit of happiness” ahead of my “defiant hopelessness”☺
I also admire the bravery of all homosexuals (I hate the word…) who still think they can retain anything such as christianity with their chosen sexual orientation/identity. I am so very sorry, but all forms of “genuine” christianity condemn homosexuality either from a doctrinal (scriptures) or from a dogmatic (church tradition) perspective. The other “christian” groups promoting or accepting homosexuality, are well intended, heartfelt communities of good people, with an absolute right to call themselves “christians”, but they should understand that mainstream christianity might “accept” a dialogue with them, but ALWAYS with a hidden agenda of either refute them of convert them in the end.
And no, from a strictly scriptural point of view, jesus was NEVER condoning anything which the OT condemned, and grace as it is understood through the scriptures, is “never a licence to sin”.
I am truly sorry to cause any distress with this to good people, but basically all gender inclusive christians communities are christian not according to historical christianity, but according to their own interpretation of christian ideas.
But if that’s what makes them feel happy, hallelujah!☺
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Am I right in remembering you ‘left’ Christianity five years ago? Most ex-Christians will agree it’s a traumatic process at the best of times, but you appear to have gone through a particularly painful deconversion. My own experiences of a less difficult process took at good 10 years to get through to the other side. I spent most of the intermittent years ignoring religion and feeling rather lost in the world. I can’t help but wonder if your dim view of everything is just part of this process, and things will improve with time.
I disagree with you about Christians who find more agreeable interpretations of their faith in the Bible. I think it’s broad enough in theme to allow for almost any belief to be backed up. As far as homosexuality in the Bible is concerned, all the references can be explained in a number of different ways – whether it’s the fact that committed homosexual relationships aren’t mentioned, whether it’s a matter of culture and ignorance about what homosexual relationships are, or whether it’s looking deeper at the meaning of the words and the context of each mention. The Bible is an open playing field of interpretation, and believing that one interpretation is more ‘correct’ than another is to ignore centuries of so-called heresy and schism. How can a good Christian abandon all worldly possessions and be a good slave master at the same time? How can a good Christian husband love his wife as himself and expect her to be obedient? How can a good Christian avoid judging others, and judge others at the same time? They all justify whatever they want to do.
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For the first part: being a christian is one thing, being a fairly prolific minister is another… It’s not about me anymore and my family, to which I was a “christlike” head for nearly two decades, but also those whom I convinced about all I despise today. I was also a front line fundamentalist, Jewish roots etc., with five years of graduate studies of pastoral ministry, and an active international ministry. I’ve seen it nearly all, dug too deep, and understood too much from both sides in order to comfortably evaluate both, and reach conclusions not easily available to the general public☺
For the second, I absolutely agree with your disagreement, this being the reason I tried to clarify that my evaluation rests on the rather academic/theological foundation of what I called mainstream christianity, which regardless of their nuanced PR statements, will remain homophobic until the day when the first “gods” will arrive back from the sky on Elijah’s “fire carriages”.
I agree that given the nature of biblical languages, interpretations may vary, but the conservative/orthodox will always be the standard interpretation, while all the rest will be liberal at various extents.
I am in a rather lengthy process of considering the establishment of fellowships of like minded people, providing counseling, support and recovery companionship to religious dropouts. It is much easier to provide that as a former minister, because I know better the load these people are carrying, since it’s been placed there by people like myself. But that may take some time.
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Sounds like a horrible experience, but I’m sure it will feel different a few years down the line. Hope it will anyway. I think that as Quakers and Universalists can find a way to make the Christian faith less harmful, it’s likely that other larger denominations will follow suit.
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Thank you for your good hopes☺
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I hope, one day soon, that believers who have been brainwashed by a fictional book will grieve over the horrific pain they’ve caused to at least 10% of the human species. I hope they feel the pain so deep they drop to their knees and plead for forgiveness from those they persecuted. One of my best friends is gay, and knew it by the time he was age 4. He grew up in a house of testosterone. All brothers. He wasn’t a ma’ma’s boy, either. I can’t believe the trials he’s experienced at the hands of many believers in a supposedly loving god God.
Some neurological findings published in Medical News Today:
“Sexual orientation is not a matter of choice, it is primarily neurobiological at birth”,
Dr. Jerome Goldstein, Director of the San Francisco Clinical Research Center (USA) stressed today at the 21st Meeting of the European Neurological Society (ENS) in Lisbon.
“There are undeniable links. We want to make them visible to the eye”. At the congress he showed how the brains of people of different sexual orientations – gay, straight, bisexual – work in different ways, applying volumetric Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI), functional fMRI scanning, and PET scanning.”
Source: http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/226963.php
And this from Science Daily:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080617151845.htm
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Thanks for the links – does that mean you don’t agree with the ‘broken’ theory? 😈
I think Liberty of Thinking nailed it:
“As for the whole rant about when does an individual start to consciously identify with their sexual desires, christians shouldn’t even be considered in a discussion, because ALL they want is to present in a politically correct way, both their resentment against homosexuality, and their superiority of their self-righteousness.”
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I love the photo. I also love your input on the matter.
As if it actually mattered wether homosexuality is a result of environment, or genes. As if homosexuality would be the reason and scare why we should care for the young. The real question here is why should we restrict the lives of homosexuals (or anybody really) when their existance is not hurtfull, rather the acts of people condemning them are?
What twisted morality do the authoritarianism of religions cause. Or are religions the cause, or only the cover for being hostile to other people, when religious people feel ikky about them?
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“The real question here is why should we restrict the lives of homosexuals (or anybody really) when their existance is not hurtfull, rather the acts of people condemning them are?”
Totally, that’s the point exactly. They have some biblical image of sodomy and lust in the Tower of Babel and can’t separate that from what homosexuality actually is, and how their twisted ideas and attitudes affect gay people.
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I don’t understand what all the fuss is about either way. Whether one chooses(I don’t believe that is the case) to be or not makes no difference. Giving gay people the right to marry or adopt doesn’t infringe on anyone else’s life or rights.
As far as the fact that they can’t biologically reproduce: so what? Approximate 10% of people are gay/lesbian. Affording them the right to marry or adopt is not going to change that number and that leaves the other 90% who are already reproducing. The human race is hardly on the verge of extinction. Those kinds of arguments are just silly.
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But if the god God doesn’t like it, then it’s a sin and evil. That’s why. 🙄
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Yes, but who gets to decide what the god God likes or does not like? I mean there are also a lot of Christians who think their god does not condemn homosexuality.
The thing about this Middle-Eastern god God, is that “he” allways agrees whith his adherents, regardless how badly they are in disagreement whith each other, even to the point where they see themselves liable to abuse each other for having understood their alledgedly mutual god God differently. As an outsider I can not make heads or tales about what their god God wants, because the users manual (the Bible) makes it possible to accept any interpretation on what that particular god wants.
Even when Christians harass and/or kill each others in the name of their god God, this god sits idly by and lets it happen, when all it would require of this god to stop the atrocities, would have been to appear to clarify what it actually was that “he” wanted. Instead people are left to second guess the wishes of their god according to iron-age literature. Silly, really. There are only four possible solutions to this awkward problem of non-appearance. a) The Christian god is rather limited as gods go and therefore unable to help the situation. b) The Christian god enjoys the carnage and is therefore unwilling to stop it. c) Perhaps, this god God is just not at all interrested in humanity. Or d) The Christian god God is just as non-existant as any other god according to the Christians. None of these situations lead to qualify this god God worthy of any worship.
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Ah, but you missed e) the god God moves in mysterious ways and who are we to question …
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Oh yes, of course e), the “greater good” argument. All this evil is necessary for a greater purpose. However, it is not according to what we do not know, that we decide what is good or bad, but according to what we actually know, yes? Or at least it should be. That is why faith is not a virtue.
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