what’s wrong with magic?
magic: The power of apparently influencing events by using mysterious or supernatural forces. (Oxford English Dictionary)
The Christian god God and his son Jesus, who is one being the god God, is reported to have performed many acts of magic in the Bible. The god God parted the Red Sea using mysterious or supernatural forces (magic), he killed all the firstborns in Egypt using mysterious or supernatural forces (magic), he kept Jonah alive in a whale’s belly using mysterious or supernatural forces and he raised his son Jesus and himself from the dead using mysterious or supernatural forces (magic).
There are too many incidents to mention in the Bible where the god God or his son Jesus, who is one being with the god God, used mysterious or supernatural forces to influence events (magic). In fact, the very existence of the god God and his human son Jesus being one being with a third Holy Spirit entity does seem to indicate the influence of a mysterious or supernatural force (magic).
And yet, in spite of these charmingly and mysteriously magic events, some Christians object to the use of the innocuous, perhaps even flattering, term ‘magic’. My best blogging apologist pal Fide, has dedicated a whole post to this perceived inaccuracy and insult.
I personally don’t get his point, but to make the playing field even, I’ve agreed to accept that the universe came into existence through magic, and that my mind works by magic. Because, while he’s confident that the mysterious and supernatural force of his god God is the explanation, I’m happy to call the force simply ‘mysterious’ until humans get to the point where we can explain these things in full. And if that’s magic, it makes it sound all the more exciting!
My experience surpasses my understanding. If that is not “magic” it is a wonder. My sense of wonder seems good to me.
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Everyone’s life needs a bit of magic.
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Magic? Even the mugger managed to keep Little Black Noggy aiive in his tummy. Well until she lit the match. (um, did you read Little Black Sambo series?)
Racism alert for the first part of the post and fem one for the second part.
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Sounds, em, delightful, or something. 🙂
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The big weasel word in the definition of the word, magic, is “apparently.”
Magic is actually, not apparently, fraud.
I used to do magic for my middle school immigrant kids.
They thought I was a miracle worker.
I knew I was a liar and a fraud.
I was just giving the kids what they deserved.
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So, am I to understand that immigrant kids deserve lies? Your nice Christian mask (ahem) is falling there SOM.
So ‘apparently’ (definition: as far as one knows or can see) is a deal breaker? Let’s try:
magic: The power of, as far as one knows or can see, influencing events by using mysterious or supernatural forces
Exactly the same meaning to me. 😛
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I come from the School of Education whose philosophy is, “Never give a snot nose kid an even break.”
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Just like the character Jesus said!
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Damn straight!
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Wisp,
Climb down out of your ivory tower and go where the little people live.
There, you should be able to find a book store that sells books on magic.
Buy one, and see for yourself.
Notice that there was nothing up my sleeve and my fingers never left my hand.
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You’re stunning sometimes. Ark thinks you’re my best blogging buddy.
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Fide is swimming in circles on this one. I’ve asked him for another word we can use intead of magic, and his response was: “Personally, I’m more inclined to call it a particularly obvious example of providence.”
Now, please explain to me what that means?
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It’s when you’ve been straining to drop a loaf for days, have five minutes before a meeting, and manage to let it all go and then wow your coworkers and boss.
What is that, if not a particularly obvious example of providence?
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What is it called when it instead happens 5 minute into the meeting?
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That is magic.
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OK, it’s official, i’m going to have a smile plastered across my face for the rest of the day, and quite possibly well into next week because of this astronomically poignant observation 🙂
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Comedy?
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providence: The protective care of God or of nature as a spiritual power.
That’s ‘protective’ as in occasional genocide, misogyny and racism; combined with ‘protective’ as in abandoning people to lives of serious misery; combined with ‘protective’ as in condemning most of your beloved creation to eternal misery, if not agony.
I think ‘magic’ is more accurate here.
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Me too. I also pointed out to Fide that providence is a ‘motive,’ not the description of how something is actually done.
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Has anyone ever figured out who Cheesus was praying to, in the Garden of Gethsemene?
“Hello, God – are you there? It’s me, you –“
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I saw that on a meme thingy the other day. It made me laugh, lots. I’m still laughing. The trinity is simply a great subject for ridicule, whoever thought it up was truly desperate.
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Wisp,
From Pope John Paul II, “God in his deepest mystery is family.”
The Trinity is made of three persons all of the same substance (same nature).
So when Jesus prayed to the Father, he was praying to another person of his family.
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That sounds a bit heretical to me.
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Wisp,
The Catholic pope is Christianity’s God-authorized master teacher.
We are lucky that they share so much of their insight with us.
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And I with you.
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Ah, so is THAT the way they’re spinning it now?
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Arch,
Catholic teachings are ancient.
Spin is what postmodern atheists do when they get caught babbling nonsense.
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Catholic teachings are ancient, and in those years, they’ve been spun more ways than a load of laundry. Spin is what theists do when science backs them into a corner.
— Neil Degrasse Tyson —
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Dirty Bird,
Tyson isn’t even a competent scientist and his ignorance of religion is monolithic and huge.
Why do atheists cite kooks, movie stars and crack pots as authoritative sources of religion.
The pope is an authoritative source of Christian teaching. That’s his job.
Besides, the only people who have spun Christianity over the centuries are Protestants and atheists.
Catholicism is largely unchanged from the time of the Apostles.
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“Tyson isn’t even a competent scientist.”
If I didn’t already know, from your previous posts on this and other boards, that you aren’t the brightest bulb on the tree, I would say, “You must be kidding!” Sadly, I know that you are not. What you don’t know, SillinessOfMind, could – and has – filled volumes. You’re not even a competent apologist! Sad, really.
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Bird,
Even if your hero Tyson isn’t the usual atheist wacko posing as a man of science, he still isn’t a valid source for Christian teachings.
Similarly I don’t give two shakes when a pope talks politics or economics. They usually don’t know what they’re talking about.
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As we all know, the person you consult to disprove an idea is the person most invested in maintaining that idea. This is why you personally consulted the Dalai Lama before dismissing Tibetan Buddhism.
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Iggy,
If you had ever taken the time to read the writings of the great popes (such as Pope John Paul II) and Church Fathers you’d understand that your mind was being subjected to genius.
Those men are incredibly knowledgeable on the subject of Christianity and human nature.
Atheists are ruled by bias and that is why your project your own bias on everyone else.
And that is why you criticize the popes without ever having read their writings.
Like all atheists you just spout what you’ve been programmed to spout. What you know is what you’ve been told to know.
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I’m sure they are incredibly knowledgeable. It’s just a shame that there are also people who are incredibly knowledgable about auras and homeopathy. That doesn’t take away from the fact that the basis of these beliefs is crackpot stupid.
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Iggy,
Clearly you’ve never, ever read the popes.
That makes your critique hate-based and ignorance-based.
That is proven by your comparison of Catholicism with folk medicine.
I know you have no interest in reasoning, but you just exhibited the logical fallacy of comparing apples to oranges.
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Right. Your religion is totally an orange because it’s true, unlike those apple-y auras. Unless calling it an orange is hateful, which I’m pretty sure it is, seeing how low a bar you’ve set. I have no interest in reading the popes, because the underlying core of their thought is ridiculous, and deep contemplation on how to make that insanity in line with actual observations of the real world strikes me as a huge waste of time when the alternative is so very simple.
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Iggy,
Religion is different from folk medicine.
That’s just the way it is.
Atheists don’t get to redefine reality for the rest of us.
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Redefine? No, because it is a subjective feeling.
But I can interpret the hell out of it. I can translate religious mumbo jumbo into actual reasons why people believe in unwarranted ideas.
It’s refreshing to be able to take one of the more unusual and confusing aspects of humanity and render it meaningful.
That’s just the way it is.
On the other hand, why you insist upon writing a single sentence per line will remain a mystery, a vault research will never breach.
And I’m ok with that.
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Iggy,
Perception is subjective.
Reality is objective.
The proof of that is science, language and technology.
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I’m glad you agree. I’m free to interpret your crazy subjective opinion to determine an objective explanation behind it. Cheers.
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You say that, “Reality is objective,” yet we know that religion isn’t, otherwise we wouldn’t have so many religions, so I guess that rather divorces religion from reality, doesn’t it?
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Bird,
Only God can reveal God.
That means Judeo-Christianity is the place to start when searching for authentic, objective religion.
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I can dig that. Totally makes sense.
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I simply can’t continue to cope with your delusions, Silliness, why don’t you just go off and wallow in them by yourself?
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Bird,
There is no greater delusion than believing everything happened all by itself which is what atheism demands.
And since all civilizations grew up around religion and the greatest mass murders in human history were committed by atheists, it doesn’t seem that reality is on your side.
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“There is no greater delusion than believing everything happened all by itself which is what atheism demands.”
I’ve never heard you say anything like that SOM. It really puts a new slant of everything (coming out of nothing).
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(or everything coming out of .. *magic*)
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“all civilizations grew up around religion” simply because those civilizations were ignorant as to how the world works – since the Age of Reason and the dawn of science, that trend has begun reversing.
And then, there’s you.
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Arch,
Religion is absolutely necessary for the development of civilization.
Atheism is a throwback to pre-civilization when personal bias determined what was true and what was right.
That type of thinking leads directly to might means right which is the way of the barbarian.
That’s why the greatest social cataclysms and mass murders have been committed by atheist regimes.
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“Religion is absolutely necessary for the development of civilization.”
Evidence, please —
And at the risk of repeating myself, if you believe the flood story, the greatest mass murderer of all time, was your god!
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Arch,
I just gave you the evidence.
But since evidence doesn’t really mean anything to atheists, all the evidence in the world goes unnoticed.
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You gave me evidence that, “Religion is absolutely necessary for the development of civilization”? Where is it? I didn’t see it!
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Bird,
Take balls in hand and go study.
Look at ancient Egypt, ancient Rome, ancient Greece, ancient Persia, ancient China and Japan.
And don’t forget the Americas, the Inca, the Aztec and the Maya.
Religion was at the center of all those civilizations.
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Religion = superstition, so superstition was at the center of all those civilizations – what does that prove? That fear can organize people?
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Bird,
Your opinion of religion is irrelevant.
That fact is religion teaches the virtue and cooperation necessary for civilization to take hold and flourish.
Atheism is the worst sort of barbarism because it adds nothing to civil culture.
Atheism leaves man in the “state of nature” where life is brutal and short.
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“That fact is religion teaches the virtue and cooperation necessary for civilization to take hold and flourish.”
Any chance you could show me how murdering all of the Canaanites and taking their women as sex slaves contributed to that?
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Bird,
Your last two comments exhibit deliberate obtuseness meant to derail the conversation into the irrelevant.
Your flight into the irrelevant will have to done solo.
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Personally, I thought it made perfect sense – maybe you need to rethink, or possibly even go out and actually learn something that isn’t in the Bible.
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Oh, and the greatest mass murder of all time, if you believe the story of Noah, was your god – was he an atheist?
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Bird,
Was the United States wrong when it bombed the mass murdering, raping, pillaging Nazis and Imperial Japanese, back to the Stone Age?
Of course not!
That’s because the mass murdering, raping pillaging Nazis and Imperial Japanese were evil.
The Bible states clearly that God brought the flood because man had become totally evil.
That means that mass murder, rape, pillaging, torture, all manner of sadism and every other depravity that men can inflict on each other was common place.
At that time the human race was too far gone to evil to benefit from an atheist teach-in.
And the Bible also said that God was sick about it.
In conclusion, you’re just peddling worn out atheist lies that circulate among the ignorant.
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“Was the United States wrong when it bombed the mass murdering, raping, pillaging Nazis and Imperial Japanese, back to the Stone Age?”
Silliness, you tried this on Matt’s blog, and it didn’t fly there either. Far from being “bombed back into the stone age,” Germany and Japan are two of the most prosperous countries in the world today, but possibly, living in the Bronze Age, as you appear to be, you may not have noticed that.
“The Bible states clearly that God brought the flood because man had become totally evil.”
“The Bible states” – do you have any outside sources, that can confirm that?
“And the Bible also said that God was sick about it.”
So your omnipotent god can get SICK? Does he have a good HMO? Maybe he should sign up for Obamacare —
You poor, sad man, you have no real idea as to how the Bible came to be written, or who wrote it, do you you? “I believe because my momma and daddy told me to believe –“
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Arch,
Germany and Japan were bombed to rubble.
The US through what was called the Marshal Plan rebuilt Europe, including Germany.
General Douglas McArthur oversaw the rebuilding of Japan.
Again, you think modern Germany and Japan just happened all by itself.
We have a modern, prosperous peaceful world thanks to the United States.
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Only select parts of Germany and Japan were bombed to rubble. But that still doesn’t let your god off the hook as the greatest mass murderer of all time! IF, of course, you believe the Bible – now if you don’t, he’s in the clear, but unfortunately, then he doesn’t exist. Your choice —
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Bird,
I would like to recommend Ken Burns: The War. It gives a very graphic treatment of World War II.
Europe was laid waste, either by the Germans, the Russians or the Americans and Brits.
Both Germany and Japan were bombed so thoroughly that bombers ran out of targets.
The bombing of Dresden is famous but I’ll bet you never heard of it.
In Japan, greater damage was caused by conventional bombing than by the nukes that struck Nagasaki and Hiroshima.
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Why yes, I DO happen to know something about Dresden:
“Critics of the bombing argue that Dresden—sometimes referred to as “Florence on the Elbe “– was a cultural landmark of little or no military significance, and that the attacks were indiscriminate area bombing and not proportionate to the commensurate military gains.”
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Your, “Christian teachings,” have gone from the assumed words, written 40+ years after the fact (if it even WAS a fact), of a poor, penniless, hippy preacher (if he ever existed), wandering the area around Galilee in a robe and sandals, believing himself to be the son of a god, to the sophisticated doctrines of the Vatican, not even envisioned by that sad man, that allow priests to go unprosecuted for raping children, and to the Vatican being the largest source of wealth on the planet. Your NT says he grabbed a whip and drove the money-changers out of the temple, because he felt they were profiting from religion – your pope should be glad he’s not alive today, or he’d be coming to Vatican Square with a 50-caliber machine gun, and he wouldn’t be there to kiss anybody’s ring or hand out “atta boys.”
I’ll stick with atheism, thanks.
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Bird,
What sophisticated doctrines are you referring to?
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The crap that began in 325 CE, with the Council of Nicea, and has been added to ever since.
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Bird,
The Council of Nicaea approved the Bible canon and issued a creed of faith that is still used today during the Sunday Catholic Mass.
The doctrines of the Council of Nicaea 335AD were reiterated over 1200 years later at the Council of Trent.
The Catholic Church is the oldest institution in the world and it got that way by being consistent.
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Consistent, as in nearly sentencing Galilleo to death in the 1600’s for saying the earth revolved around the sun, then admitting, in 1998, that he was right?
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Bird,
You’re a victim of atheist and Protestant propaganda.
Galileo insulted the pope. That’s why he got into trouble.
Name even one other scientist who was persecuted by the Church for his scientific finding/
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Nicolaus Copernicus
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Simply not true.
The Church instructed scientists to be sure, ie provide proof, of their findings.
Don’t atheists also demand scientific proof of any findings?
Apparently atheists and the Catholic Church have much in common.
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“Simply not true.”
Again, your ignorance is glaring. In 1616, an Inquisitorial commission unanimously declared heliocentrism to be “foolish and absurd in philosophy, and formally heretical since it explicitly contradicts in many places the sense of Holy Scripture.” The Congregation of the Index banned Copernicus’s De Revolutionibus and other heliocentric works.
Stay in school, SOM, and don’t do drugs!
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Bird,
Here is a link to a Catholic website that has actual information on the Roman Inquisition:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Inquisition
They make the same commentary but add that the response to Copernicus was to ban his book.
That is a far cry from what happened to Galileo.
Again, I ask, what other scientist was persecuted by the Church like Galileo was?
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And that’s Proto-Bird to you – you really DON’T know anything, do you?
(BTW, VW, am I expected to hug him too, or was that reserved only for Brandon? Please advise –)
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Dirty Bird, Proto Bird…
…toe-MAY-toe – toe-MAH-toe
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Big love for SOM, lots of hugging please. If you’re silly enough to engage with him seriously, you’re missing all the fun. I love that he’s calling you ‘Dirty bird’! 😀
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Remind me to fly over and drop you a present —
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Actually, I have the meme, and posted a link to it on either Nate’s or Matt’s site, and would have preferred posting it here, rather than just the text, but WordPress being what it is, I couldn’t, which is why I would never have a WordPress site.
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Makes you an effort to visit, which must lose you readers.
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An effort to visit, why would that be? See for yourself:
http://in-his-own-image.com/2010/01/24/-in-his-own-image-.aspx
You can post pics in your comments, bold, underline, italicize, embed video, quote, all without having to learn HTML – what’s not to like?
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Yes, I went once, and it’s an effort to go back. Plus, it doesn’t even fit on my browser which makes it feel cheap. Come to WordPress, you won’t regret it. 😈
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Never, it is not commenter-friendly.
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And the irony is that you spend most of your time commenting on other WordPress blogs??
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But I can’t post images, I can’t hi-light a word and click a B-tab to have it bolded, a U-tab to have it underlined, or an I-tab to have it italicized – I can’t highlight a passage and click a tab with a set of quotation marks on it, and have the entire passage become inset. I hate it.
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Your site isn’t reader friendly (a bigger problem) because it doesn’t fit on my screen.
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So use your keyboard to make it smaller – Control/minus sign, if you’re on a P(iece of) C(rap), or Command/minus key if you’re on a Mac.
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Whahahahahah Arch! Love it! 😀
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Okay..I am here. Yes, that is a pretty darn good capture. Nice contrast with the bark and all that.
Was it a ”lucky break” or was the robin all over the garden?
I ask only because the Cape Robin sits and waits when I water or turn the soil and then follows me around the garden waiting for any juicy worms I might dig up. They are quite charming little things
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No lucky breaks, no robin all over the garden, just sheer artistic genius. Like you didn’t know.
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That doesn’t look like any robin I ever saw, more like some variety of wren.
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Well, I don’t name the damn birds. Complain to an ornithologist. Sheesh!
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Yes, European robins are much nicer than the big clunking US versions. Ours our gorgeous little birds.
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Still looks like a wren to me.
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Violet, when you pigeonhole the idea of miracles into magic, it comes off as a rhetorical move aimed at insulting. Maybe that’s not what you are trying to do though. I will give you the benefit of the doubt because you deserve it.
An interesting thing I came across the other day is that Joseph practiced divination (Genesis 44:15). Indeed, the cup he placed in Benjamin’s sack was used for divination! But, we also know that divination was later forbidden by the Mosaic Law along with soothsaying, auguring, sorcery, casting spells, consulting ghosts, or seeks oracles from the dead (Deuteronomy 18:10-11).
What I would want to point out here is that scripture clearly separates these practices from God’s activity. God’s power is not categorized as magical. It is only mysterious to us, that does not make it entirely divorced from causation in this particular universe. The truth is that it is reasonable to think that the God who created all things it would be trivial to rearrange the quarks of water to form molecules of wine. It rationally flows from the belief in a Creator. It is not secret access to some kind of supernature blasting out magic and fireballs and so on. 🙂
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See, SillinessOfMind – this is exactly the kind of New-Age spin I had in mind, when I said that as science disproves more and more of the biblical claims, theists reach further and further out, to find claims to justify their mumbo-jumbo.
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Bird,
Naivethinker isn’t the pope.
Maybe he’s a Protestant.
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What biblical claims has science disproved?
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What biblical claims has science proved?
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Science is a relatively modern category, but anything we label as science in the bible was not particularly novel for its day. The Israelites were no more scientifically advanced than their contemporary cultures. It seems that God knows that we will figure out science eventually, what scripture imparts is theology among other things. When you read something like the creation narrative, you should read it with ancient eyes, with their worldview, and ask the question: what distinguishes this story from contemporary creation narratives, what is it trying to say?
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Good idea, I’ll try that. Hmm, The authors of Gen 1, known as the Priestly (P) Source, writing from captivity in Babylon around 525 BCE, are trying to say that the writers of Gen 2 and 3, the Yahwist (J) Source, writing in Judea in 950 BCE, got it all wrong, that they pictured their god as being anthropomorphic, popping down to earth for strolls “in the cool of the day,” and personally sewing clothes for Adam and Eve on the celestial Singer – that the god of the Jews is really more ethereal, more untouchable than that. Gosh, it works!
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And yes, I’m well aware that you didn’t answer my question: What biblical claims has science proved?
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Science (just like archeology) is not capable of proving biblical history or theological claims. We struggle enough with forensic science in court rooms. But, it should raise an eyebrow when science is consistent with biblical claims. The best example is Big Bang being consistent with a creator deity as described by the biblical narratives. Notice the word I use here, “consistent”, which is important. It does not imply proof. I can prove to you the strength of gravity or the distance from Canada to Mexico, but I cannot prove to you things like where Lincoln was born. I can show you how historical documents and such provide a consistent picture though.
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Now THIS, L’s & G’s is exactly what I mean by New Age spin – while most Christian denominations reject the Big bang concept because it negates the need for a creator, our spin doctor here embraces it, because it proves his god exists – HE set the BB in motion! Whrrrrr! (spinning sound –)
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This is certainly an exercise in being pedantic about semantics. Fide initiated the discussion by objecting to the use of a word that by its definition, is completely acceptable. You’ve even admitted that you believe your god uses ‘mysterious’ powers to do things. Re-read the definition, that’s magic. There’s simply no need to be defensive about a perfectly accurate term.
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No it’s not pedantic, it’s avoiding loose associations and failing to draw distinction. That’s part of intelligence, to understand the differences between things. God does not have special access to power like a wizard or sorcerer or witch, rather God is all power. If you still insist it fits the OED, I will say the dictionary does not provide specific enough definitions. Buying into a dictionary and not thinking for oneself is pedantic.
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I’ve been out of those circles for so long now, and I was so young when I left, that it’s hard to imagine a grown man, still harboring such delusions. I guess I sometimes forget that that world still exists for some. Sad, really – otherwise, he seems rather bright.
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I met another American in blogging land who didn’t think dictionary definitions were worth understanding. I’m sorry to break it to you, but if you think the word means something else, you are a person with language and understanding problems – it doesn’t mean that dictionaries are somehow wrong. As I said, I’m being pedantic about meaning, because meaning actually, em, means something.
And let’s be clear, just because the Bible doesn’t state the origin of this god God’s magic power, doesn’t mean he can’t have a supernatural nuclear reactor or some kryptonite as his disposal. Anything’s possible in the land where anything’s possible. So your notion that your god ‘is all power’ is made up and frankly meaningless. If you don’t believe me, check the dictionary. 😀
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OK, that’s a good reply. 🙂 And you know, I was about to apologize for my reply coming off as too harsh. So, I am sorry about that.
One of us is forming a tautology only your claim depends on the authority of OED and mine depends on my belief in how reality actually works. Regardless, this is all very fascinating to think about!
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Oh, I just love that little bird you’ve captured there Violet! Stunning shot! Must be magic that you’ve used! I need that spell too please. 😀
As for the debate. Who says they didn’t have help from aliens who wanted everyone else to believe it was this ‘God’. Maybe Jesus was an alien too. Will we ever know? I’ll rather believe in magic as well and beware the one that disagrees with me. I might put a spell on them. 😛
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Magic alone or plus google? 🙂
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Googlist Magic Mak. 😆
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😀
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That’s old-school “Bippity, boppity, boo,” Sonel – nowdays, you rearrange their quarks!
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You forgot ‘Abracadabra’ Arch but if you say so. I do like rearranging stuff too. 😛
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Thank you Sonel! I adore picture praise, especially for cute little birds. Magic is under-rated, Christians should be proud to use the word. 🙂
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I totally agree Violet! 😀
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Wait a minute! That’s not a wren (and CERTAINLY not a robin), that’s a finch!
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For a (Dirty) Bird, you don’t know much about birds. Finches have serious beak power for cracking open nuts, this little cute robin nibbles on soft insects with its charming little beak. I found this for you to help with your robin confusion:
http://patternpatisserie.blogspot.co.uk/2011/12/do-you-know-difference-between-british.html
Also, I was just wondering if you could save yourself a lot of repetitive strain injury on the old wrists by meeting up with Brandon and SOM for a coffee and chat sometime. You do realise you all live nearby?
*Thanks Violet!*
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Theists – I just finished watching “COSMOS” once again, with all of it’s majesty of the Universe, and I feel so sorry for your sad, pathetic, little desert god.
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