a rant about selling sex
Pinkagendist has done some posts that raise questions about our attitudes towards sex. In western societies, we have developed many key moral features from our dominant religion over the last couple of thousand years, so it’s worth bearing in mind that any instincts we have about selling sex may be influenced by our religious heritage.
For those of you who don’t know, according to the traditional interpretations of Christianity, sex outwith the confines of a heterosexual marriage is evil. Given that limiting sexual activity to heterosexual marriage is not a possibility that most people would naturally either want or be able to do (especially as even thinking about sex with other people is evil), sex became associated with guilt, shame and wrong-doing, and may very well still hold residual negative connotations in many sectors of society.
Therefore, people like Pink reason that selling sex only has a bad reputation because history has told us it is immoral. He holds up examples of the happy, intelligent sex workers who make informed decisions and open choices about their line of work. What percentage of sex workers does he think this would cover? No idea, but lets look at some facts from a UK agency:
- between 50-75% of women entered prostitution before they were 18, with 15 years being the average age of entry.
- 70% of those involved in street prostitution have a history of Local Authority care. Nearly half report a history of childhood sexual abuse.
- rape rate statistics from the US raise the possibility that there may actually be a positive association between legal prostitution in Nevada and higher rape rates in that state.
- more than half of women in prostitution have been raped and or seriously assaulted and at least 75% have been physically assaulted at the hands of the pimps and punters.
Selling sex isn’t something that’s likely to go away in human society. Sex workers deserve the same kind of employment and personal protection that people in any other line of work take for granted. We can’t make it go away by criminalising it and, in fact, we only make conditions worse for the mainly vulnerable people who get involved. Criminalising sex work also makes it more difficult for people to move on to other lines of work.
But let’s not pretend that selling your body for the use and sexual pleasure of a paying customer is likely to be a fulfilling vocation for many people. Let’s not pretend that the industry doesn’t perpetuate society’s problem of treating women like objects. Let’s be clear that the reality for most people selling sex is exceedingly grim and that the circumstances that brought them there have nothing to do with choice.
If 1000 years from now, a utopian society where women and men are truly equal has happy sex workers in a legalised profession with a career structure, safe from harm and choosing their profession from the myriad opportunities open to them, I won’t complain. But we’re not there, and given the exploitative and normally abusive nature of sex work in the world today, I think it’s naive in the extreme to suggest that the case for legalising prostitution has anything to do with it being an aspirational career.
Still not quite my issue. I don’t like the singling out of sex. Where’s the outrage (campaigns, petitions, organizations) trying to ban textile related work in the Philippines where workers are locked into factories and die when they catch fire? http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2012/05/phil-m10.html
Do you think they chose that life? Working for a pittance, barely subsisting, and even ‘locked in’? That’s basically indentured servitude. Notice that there’s no religious outrage/outpouring against that.
Janet Jackson flashes her breast for a millisecond and suddenly the sky is falling.
There’s no perfection. Our world is highly imperfect. The best we can do is back the people who need assistance and bringing prostitution out of the shadows would be a tremendous blow to those who try to exploit it. It would be the first step to empowering those in the profession and by making them legitimate citizens, it could empower them to have real choices, including moving to another profession should they choose to do so.
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Oh, that’s fine. We actually agree then. 🙂
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“If 1000 years from now, a utopian society where women and men are truly equal has happy sex workers in a legalised profession with a career structure, safe from harm and choosing their profession from the myriad opportunities open to them, I won’t complain.”
I agree with this 100%. If, and that is a very big if, a person is choosing the sex trade because that is what they aspire to that is one thing, having to do it out of desperation is another. Television shows glamorize high class call girls and escort services but I would submit that those ‘jobs’ are not the norm when it comes to prostitution. The Heidi Fleisses of this world are not typical. Sex trafficking is far more prevalent.
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Yeah, exactly, only a tiny percentage are there through genuine choice and even these ‘happy choices’ may well have more to do with our problematic patriarchal society.
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Atheists believe in evolution, no?
Both man and sexuality are a product of evolution.
So the very notion of women selling man-time in their vaginas is utterly ridiculous.
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Don’t be ridiculous SOM, how could something come from nothing?
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LOL! Nicely played!
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I don’t get it.
I guess you had to be there. Hopefully you and Wisp had fun.
For free, naturally.
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Nice parry! You’re back in the game: 15-All
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John, you’re confusing a serious, academic discussion between me and SOM with your cheeky comments. Please behave. 🙄 Now in all likelihood he won’t respond to me. Sigh.
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You know, if you keep this up you’ll brake him, and then there’ll be tears
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She’ll brake me and I’ll fall madly in love with her.
That’s the way it usually goes. DAMN IT!
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Well, there’s a few things you should first know about Wisps past before leaping on the cherub cloud, SOM. Here’s just one snippet:
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Wisp. Not plural.
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Yes, Roughseas, Wisps’ 😉
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Thank’s Jon
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Shit, i buggered it again, didn’t I? 😦
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SOM, please stop going off topic. It’s really unprofessional.
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Brake? As in slow him down? Or is this a New World spelling craze I’m not familiar with?
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I was *hoping you were – quietly -going to correct that for me
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Well SOM seemed to agree with you, so I wasn’t sure what as going on. That’s worse than dodgy apostrophes. Rather awkward for The Great Atheist. 😀
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Fortunately for me, I sing my more important messages!
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I tend to agree with you Violet, but I could have sworn you were recently complaining about how the bible advocated rape and slavery and now suddenly you seem to be implying we have alleged religious objections to sex? I could have sworn that just last week we were the polygamist- sex slavery-50 shekel-laying with your handmaid kind of Christians?
I’ll have to get around to writing that post about Christ’s love for women because that’s what these debates always come back to for me. When you really come to understand Christ’s teachings, you come to realize that the rules regarding sexuality are always all about creating safety and protection for women. Sex is a gift, God created it, it’s people that keep trying to turn it into something ugly.
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“I could have sworn that just last week we were the polygamist- sex slavery-50 shekel-laying with your handmaid kind of Christians?” That’s according to the Old Testament. The Christian interpretation of the Bible prevalent in our culture opted to ignore that part of the Bible. So the legacy left for society is that sex is dirty.
“Sex is a gift, God created it, it’s people that keep trying to turn it into something ugly.” Sex is the way our species breeds. It feels good to ensure we keep doing it.
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“Sex is the way our species breeds. ”
Well, then I guess that pretty much eliminates the need for prostitution, homosexuality, birth control, or infertile marriages.
Sex for women is not simply about breeding or feeling good, Violet, it’s also about creating intimacy, strengthening bonds, ensuring protection. It is in fact, an economic and a social exchange that acts like a building block for civilization itself.
Besides the obvious physical abuse and exploitation that prostitutes experience, there is a horrendous toll taken on people’s pysches, their spirits, their emotional and psychological lives. That’s why so many eventually need drugs to cope.
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“it’s also about creating intimacy, strengthening bonds, ensuring protection” I agree, but that all relates back directly to successful breeding. I also think that’s why selling sex probably can’t be emotionally healthy.
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The Jesus found in the Gospel of the Egyptians is anything but a fan of women. He loathes them, and doesn’t just demand total abstinence but preaches for the outright separation of the sexes, stating that “sorrow” and “error” (what he links to women) will remain with man “As long as women bear children.”
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Please accept my apologies anyone who claims anything about Christ’s “love and teaching for/about women”, for reminding them that christianity DOES NOT follow the teachings of christ, but those of Paul, with an emphasis on “women should be silent, because they are to blame for the fall…”
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Well said! Amazing how many of these Christian twits conveniently ignore this.
Jesus was here for the Jews. He was here as an eschatological itinerant preacher.
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If he existed at all…
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Yes, well…of course 😉 Nod’s as good as a wink to blind camel and all that.
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Well, I nearly got in trouble in seminary for questioning monogamy, since “since the dawn of time”, polygamy, either patri- or matriarchal depending of local specifics, was accepted and happily provided within the limits of common good, all what’s needed for a decent life. Today, legislations are condemning decent people for consensual polygamy and bigamy, based on idiotic anachronisms, lacking any rational reason!
I guess animals do not need prostitution, because they are not forced to resort to it…
We live in herds called “society”, but give prison sentences for “bigamy”? Animals have more commonsense than humans…
A married man/woman covertly buys sex from a person with whom they could maybe decently live together?
Just wondering…
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This is a good question for seminary! I think a rational argument for monogamy can be made. Being a married guy myself, I think having more than one wife would dilute my love and ability to have a meaningful relationship and it sets up the potential for jealousy and tribalism issues between wives and children and so on. This same logic can be applied to polyandry and group marriages. Of course, I’ve also heard reports of polygamous Mormons whose wives found that they enriched each others lives. The truth is, it may work for some people. But, I would still question this model from an optimizing standpoint. These are just some thoughts of the top of my head. What do you think?
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My friend, you are considering my thoughts from a contemporary, and therefore biased position. And regardless how rational monogamy may seem, it does so from a rather subjective, and therefore personalised-rational point of view, which cannot therefore offer any legal basis. I find myself in the same situation, rather unwilling to change something would need a completed mentality shift in order to be “normal” again…
Nevertheless, consensual instances exist, some fairly well but probably many generations would be needed for humanity to reconsider this emotionally charged issue.
What I truly hate, is having state laws dictating a free human being how many partners/wives/husbands they should have. This is not a farm where the owner decides how many chicken his rooster should have. We are supposed to be truly free range, not caged…
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Hey LoT,
Oh I see, so your main concern is whether or not the state ever had/has sufficient reason to criminalize polygamy? I think I would agree with you that it’s difficult for the state to justify criminalizing polygamy. Actually, from a more libertarian perspective, it’s difficult for the state to recognize any form of marriage in its laws.
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I think the problem with bigamy, where it’s viewed as a crime, is that it’s not consensual. Polyamory is a different kettle of fish. But as people are silly enough to get into contracts for their relationships, it is significant and complicated if one partner enters a secret contract with another person. This could be viewed as a form of protection for women (who are generally the ones losing out) in times when financial footings were less equal. But you’re right it should be updated.
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Nevertheless, you are absolutely right about the sort of bigamy which happens in a concealed manner, this being the reason I added the consensual bit. I cannot but wholeheartedly agree with any form of protection which assists the honest.
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I do agree with you that there are Christian purity-shame cultures, but how many people take these seriously? I venture a guess that the great majority of teenagers and college students just don’t give a rip about this system of thinking. And, it’s not as if Christianity brought monogamy and ruined the image of the “world’s oldest profession.”
IMHO monogamy is supported by reason, it’s not just handed down to us by Christianity. Monogamy is a better way to go for numerous reasons including it’s positive effects of building a relationship that is lasting and meaningful in human terms, and for it’s preventing negative effects such as jealousy which leads to violent crime, uncoupling sex from personhood which leads to objectifying women, spread of venereal disease, and unwanted pregnancies.
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I don’t think this related to the purity shame cultures. It’s a simple fact that almost everyone will be interested in having sex with more than one person in their lifetime, and this, according to the Bible, is a sin. It necessarily adds guilt and shame to the mix.
I agree with you about monogamy for me personally, but my feelings on the subject can’t be projected onto other people. Some people are above jealousy, treat polyamory equally among the sexes and are smart enough to use condoms. That cancels out all your objections and you’re just left with the feeling that it’s better for you.
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So, what do you recommend to your daughter? This question will show where exactly you leave moral relativism and try to give an objective morality.
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Legalizing prostitution may not solve society’s sex-related problems, but at least it would open things up more to further identify what else can be done.
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This is odd, I’m agreeing with both you and Pink on this post.
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Well, I can’t speak for Pink, but I was looking at the possibilities a few steps further ahead where there is still much uncertainty in what steps should be taken. The next step though has become quite clear.
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As for prostitution, humanity has become so obsessed with laws, that it will one day request them for farthing as well, just to make sure we’re not exceeding our carbon footprint quotas…
Why would a human being need to be told what to purchase, or what to sell, or what to freely give, based on an adult, personal decision, which does no harm to anyone?
Is religious “donation” any more entitled to tax exemption, than a donation given/taken after a consensual heavenly orgasm?
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“what to sell, or what to freely give, based on an adult, personal decision, which does no harm to anyone?”
I think the stats demonstrate that selling sex doesn’t usually come without significant harm.
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I do agree, but nevertheless, no one has the right to take my rights away…
And just for the sake of correctness, there are always jobs available, even for minimum wage, providing enough for a thin bread and a modest shelter. I know, I’ve done it, and am forced by circumstances to do it again. Yet it is anyone’s right to chose selling their hands for labour, or their rather intimate parts.
Selling sex is much more profitable than minimum wages at a fast-food chain, and if someone decides for prostitution, they knew what that requires, and they have considered the eventual harm.
They have the right to chose, or refuse…
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I think when you take into account most suffered childhood abuse and that the average age for starting is 15, you’re not talking about open choice. You’re talking about messed up lives often with a degree of coercion and exploitation. You need basic skills and references to work in any legal minimum wage job, lots of people don’t have an upbringing that can provide this. The “I know, I’ve done it” argument is so dismissive of the experiences other people go through, please don’t sink to it.
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Agree again, but in part only…
Would it matter if I were to tell you that I’ve been abused as a child, sexually abused in the military, lived under an oppressive regime equalled by North Korea only, therefore “been there, done that” is legit, and not at all dismissive. I was twice an immigrant, taking minimum wage jobs with two uni degrees…
I was once handsome, and it would have been only as far as accepting a red carnation in my belly button to have all my material headaches gone. Yet I have chosen not to…
I do not argue against anything you bring up, but I maintain that in spite of all stats, no one has the right to take my adult right to chose, away…
Did any of this elevate me out of sinking?
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I’m afraid not. All our experiences are unique and we can’t project on to others how our biological advantages, our circumstances, our personality enabled us to react to specific situations. A lot of people don’t have the option to chose or refuse – in spite of the challenges you’ve overcome, you’ve indicated you did. (Sorry to hear about all that by the way, obviously part of me is eating my words …)
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The happy, fulfilled sex workers do exist, though. Tantra workshops abound in London.
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Good point. Hopefully trends like this can provide a new and healthier angle for the whole industry.
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But let’s not pretend that selling your body for the use and sexual pleasure of a paying customer is likely to be a fulfilling vocation for many people.
100%. And stats will show this.
I would venture it would be closer to a job-of-last-resort rather than waking up and announcing brightly,
“I know, I’ll go and shag strangers for a living!”
And this excludes all the vile aspects of human traffficking that are ever present.
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It would be interesting to know more about people who find it fulfilling and how they balance it with their romantic relationships. But the fact that most people start sex work following abuse, due to drug habits and/or as their only escape from poverty, indicates it’s not an avenue in ideal circumstances. It would be interesting to know where human society goes with this in the next few centuries, but unfortunately we’ll all be dead and can only speculate. I hate all the loose ends in life!
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The semi-glamorous descriptions of prostitution alluded to in movies and elsewhere; the films Pretty Woman and the role played by Joanne Lumley in Shirley Valentine come to mind, are a far cry from the child prostitution rackets etc.
It is very much a chicken and egg scenario; supply and demand And like the old business axiom, if you can’t see a need, create one.
What people chose to do if they are adults in a position of relative security is one thing. What they are forced to do, either through external coercion or desperation is another thing entirely.
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A nothing thing indeed (want me to edit that? I can’t talk, most of my comments are verging on nonsense these days with the amount of typos I splatter about)
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Yes, it does look silly otherwise. Sorry.
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There we go. You look all intelligent and precise now. I was going to add in a bird photo compliment but thought that might be weird. 😎
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I have avoided mentioning the photos as the tone of the post is quite serious.
However, this is a very nice capture.
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It’s just not the same if I have to drag mediocre platitudes out of you. That’s why we’re not best blogging buddies anymore. Sorry if that hurt your feelings. 😉
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I shall sulk for a week…
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Violet, I have hesitated to get involved, simply because I was taking a break from ‘intense’ subjects for a bit, and pretty much decompressing with lighthearted posts. However, I will post some info from the FBI. Like you mentioned, most women got into prostitution, on average, around age 15. Many pimps scoped them out and turned them into drug addicts. I think that any man who buys a woman for a quick squirt needs to keep a few things in mind:
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“In 2010 the Anaheim Police Department (APD) vice detail in Orange County, California, realized that most of the prostitutes it had contact with came from similar backgrounds. Analysis of their common circumstances and reasons for prostituting caused investigators to believe that they were sex trafficking victims. Human trafficking is using force, fraud, or coercion to recruit, obtain, or provide a person for sexual exploitation. This shift in perspective produced an innovative approach to addressing the problem.
In a 1998 study, 88 percent of the prostituted women surveyed stated that they wanted to leave the sex trade industry. The majority of prostitutes interviewed by APD (Anaheim Police Department) vice investigators believed that selling themselves was their only alternative for survival. Further investigation showed that these women shared similar circumstances that led them to prostitution. Pimps use various control methods to keep the women working the streets.
Many of the prostitutes spoke of daily physical abuse, emotional dominance, and lies about caring. These men burned the women with curling irons, strangled, and punched them. They told the prostitutes that their families would be ashamed of them for being a hooker and that no one else would care for them.
Alone and removed from family and friends, these women have no money and depend on their pimps for food, shelter, and clothing. Human sex trafficking victims equate to modern day slaves.
A Paradigm Sift — Anaheim Police Department
The APD dramatically changed its tactics. This paradigm shift meant considering prostitutes as potential victims and identifying pimps as suspects. This role transition became the basis of a new approach where prostitution activity was viewed as potential human sex trafficking. The department adopted new strategies to—
* assist women in escaping prostitution;
* help them realize their situations and the circumstances that got them there;
* provide services to assist with redirecting their lives in a positive direction; and
* seek cooperation in pursuing the pimps who trafficked them as prostitutes.
Conclusion
The Anaheim Police Department’s priority is recognizing, rescuing, and redirecting the lives of prostituted women. Vice investigators and victim advocates have a positive impact on these situations. This problem-solving approach to reducing street prostitution saves lives.”
More: http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/law-enforcement-bulletin/2013/March/prostitution-and-human-trafficking
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Thanks Victoria! I was hoping for some conclusive brain stuff about bonding chemicals and sex, but this is pretty good too. 😀
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I totally agree whith your analysis of the issue. I have nothing to add, exept make a comparrison. The prostitution is a bit like the other oldest profession in the world – a soldier. In a perfect society we would have no use of soldiers, but in the current world there is a need for them. Their work is basicly immoral in many senses, but situational ethics excuse them out of neccessity. A good army is there to keep the peace and warmongers at bay, not to make war. A bit like the police. Infact a police is not so far from a prostitute in this respect. The justification for the use of violence, comes from someone else using violence.
Not that I advocated for anarchy, far from it, but the perfect society would have no need for a police force, because a perfect society would not produce social problems to be solved by such officials as the police. A perfect world would not produce even the socially disturbed individuals whith such hunger for political power let alone a possibility for a powerhungry individual to produce casus belli between nations and so any military would be unnecessary.
People say that it is human nature to do evil stuff, but to me that sounds like just an excuse for selfish people to pursue their selfcentered interrests. I see such selfish individuals (like gangsters and stockbrokers) as the victims of social and cultural heritage a bit like the prostitutes are victims of the circumstances. In reality the universe provides us whith enough challenges instead for us to compete whith each other to the death nor to abuse each other. Not all men desire to have sex whith prostitutes, brake the law, or conquer other nations. Such men are somehow broken. We are animals yes, but highly capable of morals. Our cultural heritages are primitive in comparrison to many of our technological achievements and it is time we grew up.
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