why are you a christian?
My former best blogging buddy Ark did a post entitled Why are you a Christian?, which elicited some interesting responses. I particularly liked Notestoponder’s comment:
People are Christian for the same reason they’re Hindu or Muslim – they were born into it or a major tragedy/shady lifestyle was catalyst for conversion … Blind faith is a whole lot easier than free thinking independence. Christianity serves a purpose in that it makes life simple for those afraid of the unknown. Christianity negates the need for questions, doubt or disapproval. Putting lives in the hands of God relieves the pressure of figuring it out yourself.
But generally, I think people are Christians because, for them, it’s the truth. And in that respect, I think it’s very similar to atheism.
What do you think? Ark wants more input from anyone who missed it first time round because he’s still intrigued about the lure of Christianity. I’d say he’s ripe for conversion.
My journey into Christianity took decades.
I even spent four years in a Hindu-style ashram having taken vows to poverty, chastity and obedience.
I lasted six weeks as a protestant and only about 30 seconds as an atheist because anyone who reasons can’t remain there.
Christianity is the greatest religion because it was revealed by God, Himself.
So it is no coincidence that Christianity powered the rise of the greatest civilization.
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Thanks SOM. Did you not say you were brought up Catholic? That being the case, your ‘journey’ into Christianity would have been sealed in your indoctrinated youth. Were you a Hindu before or after your South Seas island adventure?
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I was away from Catholicism for almost 30 years.
The intense mental conditioning that happened in the ashram drove everything else out.
I still haven’t recovered completely.
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@SOM
May I ask what is the overriding, standout reason ( for you) or payoff if you prefer, to remain Christian
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Ark,
The ancient Greeks had a term for what you are asking.
I cite the ancient Greeks to indicate that our Western Heritage began with the Greeks and reached its pinnacle with Christian Western civilization.
The term is called “telos.”
That is the fulfillment of one’s nature.
Christianity is the path to the fulfillment of one’s own human nature.
It is how the human being best pursues happiness.
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But what do you personally consider the ultimate payoff for being a christian?
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Ark,
I just answered that question.
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In that case, forgive me for being dense.
Are you saying that pursuit of happiness is only possible through Christianity and this is the overriding reason you remain a Christian?
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Interesting you’re asking everyone the same question, about the ultimate pay-off. You really are missing the point that Christians believe it’s true. Most of them believe there’s a good god out there and they are simply following his wishes. It’s not necessarily about reward or pay-off – I know that certainly didn’t enter my head as a Christian. It was about acknowledging what I understood reality was – following the god God’s wishes.
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This is one answer of four from another Christian I asked.. And it was the one that struck a chord.
2. I believe God has given us all this life, but only some of us receive the gift of eternal life (life in the age to come). Of course I want that.
my emphasis
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Oh well, maybe I was a nice genuine Christian and they’re all soul mercenaries. Some people just can’t get up more than one rung of the evolutionary ladder to get beyond basic reward mechanisms. Ironically enough. Or maybe ‘truth’ was reward enough for me.
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I was surprised he included this as he tries to present his case usually from an intellectual perspective, but I suppose the faith angle must creep in eventually. And I see insanitybytes22 has elaborated on this promissory note from god, adding scientific data is seems.
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Wisp,
There is nothing wrong with a reward mechanism.
In philosophy and economics it’s called acting in one’s own best interest.
Wisdom includes the knowledge and experience needed to determine one’s own best interest.
If Christians have determined that their religion is in their own best interest, who are you to say otherwise?
Are you so wise that you know the best interest of every individual in the world?
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“Are you so wise that you know the best interest of every individual in the world?” Well, I did think so before I read your thought-provoking comment. Perhaps I was wrong. Rewards are great!
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@SOM
Are you so wise that you know the best interest of every individual in the world?
If I may….
Me? No. Christians , however, feel that it is in everybody’s best interest to spread the ‘word’ which is why proselytizing is integral to Christianity.
In times past such action has caused untold misery, destruction, disease, and in a few cases the complete eradication of cultures.
If there is any charge of arrogance then it surely should be laid squarely at the feet of Christianity.
Your own brand, Catholicism, is responsible for more repugnant deeds that I could name and its hierarchy are some of the most arrogant fucking bastards to have walked the planet. Many still are.
While I respect your right to believe what you like maybe if you and your ilk kept it to yourselves and didn’t continually espouse the verbal diatribe we have become accustomed to then we might actually be able to consider what was in our best interest instead of having to defend such interests from fools such as you.
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Please refrain from swearing at the entertaining troll who’s kind enough to grace my pages with his humour. Honestly, you’ll scare him off and then there’ll be no-one to play nonsense words games with!
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Sorry…please delete expletive. I wouldn’t want
ithim to have to any extra work such as reading a dictionary.LikeLike
Ark,
Christianity powered the rise of the greatest civilization in human history.
And nowhere in Christian doctrine is the advocacy of “repugnant deeds.”
Therefore, your indictment of Christianity is a total fail.
You have the pernicious habit of blaming God and Christianity for the evil that men do.
And as we all know, blaming is a psychopathology, whereby the blamer willfully gives up power to actually deal with problems himself.
In the case of the atheist who blames God for the evil that men do, the atheist willfully gives up his power to think rationally.
Further, there is nothing wrong with proselytizing.
Proselytizing is nothing more than salesmanship in the arena of ideas.
And there are no more ardent proselytizers than atheists such as yourself.
So your complain against Christians is simply you applying a standard to others that you refuse to adhere to yourself and conjuring up a demon that you can blame for all of society’s ill so you can relieve yourself of any responsibility.
Hypocrisy and malignant ignorance much?
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And nowhere in Christian doctrine is the advocacy of “repugnant deeds.”
Oh, you misunderstand. And for the record, repugnant acts were given the official seal. Think Inquisition.
You have the pernicious habit of blaming God and Christianity for the evil that men do.
Don’t be a churl. I do not believe in gods so why would I level any blame at ‘them’?
Further, there is nothing wrong with proselytizing.
Proselytizing is nothing more than salesmanship in the arena of ideas.
And there are no more ardent proselytizers than atheists such as yourself.
I doubt the average anti- theist and non believer would have anything to say at all to be honest if it wasn’t in the course of refuting the diatribe foisted on humanity by silly people like you.
So your complain against Christians is simply you applying a standard to others that you refuse to adhere to yourself and conjuring up a demon that you can blame for all of society’s ill so you can relieve yourself of any responsibility.
Hypocrisy and malignant ignorance much?
This is just too tiresome…I shall let one of the others reply to this if they choose.
You indoctrination is showing once again.
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Ark,
Regarding the Inquisition, again you are applying your own biased, modernized, personal standards to an institution that had every reason to insist on the purity of its doctrines.
The Inquisition guided primitive man from the horse, buggy, slave and near annihilation, to human rights, nuclear power, modern medicine prosperity beyond anyone’s wildest dreams, and the Space Age.
Clearly, your understanding of the Catholic Inquisition comes not from any actual study of its life and times but from your mindless ingestion Protestant and atheist propaganda that has been circulating since the Reformation.
The particular Inquisition that was problematic and produced all the atheist urban legends and superstitions was the Spanish Inquisition.
But even that Inquisition was understandable seeing has how the Spaniards had finally freed themselves from 800 years of Muslim rule and needed to rebuild their culture and establish unity.
Nevertheless, the Spanish Inquisition was requested by King Ferdinand, I believe for political purposes. And unfortunately Pope gave his approval.
King Ferdinand’s objective was to create an unaccountable class of elites who could act as judge, jury and executioner in order to unify Spanish culture and homogenize all thinking.
This is much the same thing the Democrat Party has been doing with control of education, politics, media and science (global warming, gay rights, income redistribution and the creation of an unaccountable bureaucracy to oversee the tyranny).
Again, you are apply a standard to those you hate and deliberately refusing to apply the same standard to yourself and people like you. The Democrat Party and all atheist regimes enact Inquisition far worse than anything the Catholic Church ever did.
Again, I ask, hypocrisy much?
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Honestly? I truly believe the evidence concerning Vitamin B and reports about radial tires making a comeback are nonsense, especially the recent article suggesting they would be tested on Kangaroos with diabetes. But all said and done there is a glimmer of hope for the endangered sentient Lancre Blue Cheese.
We can but hope, yes? I must get back to listening to the front lawn grow greener.
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Ark,
Yes, honestly, you haven’t the foggiest idea what you are talking about.
You just vomit out what you’ve been programmed to vomit out.
I say quit vomiting and instead get your mind back.
Start learning and thinking for yourself instead of being a human parrot (aka Dirty Bird).
You wouldn’t know the Inquisition if it crawled up your butt and condemned and tortured one of your hemorrhoids.
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Undoubtedly the prickly pear will have adverse effects on traffic conditions, especially during the annual Lemming run where temperatures will slip sideways and underwear prices will take a tumble. But sadly the cost of red wine will ensure virgins stay unconverted and priests will have to play with their cassocks.
Eventually, however, porridge will see the decline
of Frenchmen everywhere, but especially in South Wales and circumcision will no longer be considered an Olympic sport.
Fantastic news, hey?
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The cost of red wine has nothing to do with the fact that “you wouldn’t know the Inquisition if it crawled up your butt and condemned and tortured one of your hemorrhoids.” You should listen to SOM.
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Oh , I do I DO!
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Good point, Violet. I really never thought about a payoff. I believed. Therefore Christianity just…was. The only choices I saw were either being obedient to an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent God. Heaven just was and hell just was.
Attempting to put this into words is difficult. As a believer it didn’t matter what anyone else believed. For instance, atheists believe we just cease to exist. It didn’t matter that they believed that if heaven and hell were a reality. Either people were going to heaven or to hell. Simple as.
I could either be on board with God’s plan and experience his goodness or not and experience his wrath. There were no other options.
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The only choices I saw were either being obedient to an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent God *or defying him.
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“I could either be on board with God’s plan and experience his goodness or not and experience his wrath.” Exactly. Of course the god God existed and of course he was good and deserved to be followed. Questioning didn’t make sense and in any case would have been a sinful trick of the bad fairy, Devil.
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But isn’t there a subconscious aspect that takes things into account for us? When we feel guilt, for example, it’s sometimes an automatic reaction that can happen despite logic.
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Certainly. But it is subconscious and therefore not what I would consider to be an overriding factor. I knew there was a heaven and hell. Heaven was a reward and hell was a punishment as matter of fact in my mind. But the reward wasn’t something I spent much time considering.
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About this ultimate fulfillment concept (i.e. pursuit of happiness): When I was a believer I believed ultimate fulfillment, and thereby happiness, came by fulfilling Yahweh’s commands and/or wishes. I was intent on replacing my desires with Yahweh’s desires. That was what most of my prayer time was devoted to; not a wish list, but praying through scripture and completely attempting to replace my thinking with what I believed to be Yahweh’s thinking.
“Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;” 2 Corinthians 10:5
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Belief in ‘truth’ doesn’t exist in a vacuum. It has a background, motivation, contributing factors, the subconscious etc.
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Belief in ‘truth’ doesn’t exist at all. We just make our best judgement based on what evidence we have. But I didn’t know that at the time.
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Was there not also an “I really didn’t think about it” factor? We grow up presuming adults know what they’re doing and are telling us the truth. From that to embracing a religion is a very short step.
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Definitely. My parents knew the answers to everything, all rights and wrongs, and everything about truth. Made sense at the time. (I didn’t manage a teenage rebellion for some reason)
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Ark,
It is human nature to pursue happiness.
The ancients taught that living a virtuous life surrounded by friends and family and community was the best path to happiness.
Christianity orders those wonderful teachings to the Word of God, Jesus Christ in the language of Plato is the form or most perfect example of the human being.
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Sadly your comment, though quite poetic, is little more than polemic. I was looking for a more specific answer such as the promise of eternal life.
However, your input is an interesting perspective.
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Ark,
Why would I comment on eternal life to an atheist?
And my comment is not polemic. It is an exact answer to your question and conforms to Christian doctrine.
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The first part of your reply already addresses the nature of humans and the pursuit of happiness. You made mention that is was part of the credo of the ancients.
Therefore, there is no need for the imposition of religion upon this.
Why would I comment on eternal life to an atheist?
Why would you not? It is a perfectly legitimate question. Insanitybytes was polite and open enough to answer. What is your problem?
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Ark,
Read the second paragraph in my comment.
It connects Jesus Christ to the ancient teachings on virtue.
Only God can reveal God.
And the human being can only be fulfilled by God.
When I lived in the ashram I lived a super virtuous life, but my super virtuous life was directed at something that was totally worthless.
Consequently, whatever happiness I was able to achieve, was very limited and unsatisfactory.
Jesus spoke of the pearl of great price.
Only that precious, divine pearl can give meaning to our efforts at virtuous living.
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Then please can you define fulfillment?
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Ark,
Homo sapiens is the only creature born into the world not knowing how to act, or be, in accordance with its nature.
So to fulfill human nature means to act and be in accordance with the way we were made.
This knowledge though approached through reason, is attained through insight.
Insight takes place in the Silence of Mind.
For the Silence of Mind is where God speaks and the universe listens.
Discipleship to Jesus Christ is the Way in which a person opens himself to himself and to God.
Since no human being knows himself or can know himself, only God can teach us what it means to be human.
That’s why I have referred to atheism as malignant ignorance. The malignancy is thinking that the only creature born into the world not being able to act out his human nature somehow knows something useful in that regard.
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Fine. So please tell me what is the overriding reason you remain a christian. What do you believe is the ultimate payoff for this belief after you die?
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Ark,
I have already answered your questions.
You need to let go of the preprogrammed responses you are expecting and try to understand what is being related to you.
God speaks into the mind of Christians.
I experience that as insight.
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Thanks. I think we have exhausted this and seem to be trying to do a three point turn in an alley that is just way too narrow.
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*whispers to Ark* Honestly, why to you attempt to engage him seriously? I mean, I know he’s NOT a troll or anything, because he’s totally proven he’s not on numerous occasions, and I really respect all his stories and his carefully thought-out opinions, but he’s definitely just playing at winding up the naive (HE’S TROLLING!) It astounds me how often people try to get sense out of him.
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Actually, every (Christian) perspective reinforces the mind-numbing uncritical acceptance of religion; his comments merely add to the bouillabaisse of Christian reasons for ( blind ) acceptance masked in pseudo-intellectualism.
It is fascinating.
And we write this stuff not in the hope of ever truly converting those we engage with but on the off chance a lurker will pick up on something and think…”Hmmm”.
Furthermore, there is always something to learn; I am waiting for a fuller response from Insanitybytes to the Heaven/Hell question. As the Aussies say…”No worries!”
And it helps pass the time between proofing my novel and dealing with clients. 🙂
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Ark,
The narrowness and the alley are limits that you impose on yourself and others.
You need to get out of the alley, leave the ghetto completely and transport yourself into open space where your mind has the room to be open also.
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Are….metaphor. Good one.
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Beautifully expressed SOM. Are you a bit of a poet? By the way, have you posted recently? I haven’t noticed you on my Reader for ages.
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I meant to add, in a straightforward unambiguous fashion avoiding any sort of religiosity, if possible.
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Sure, for them it’s the truth, but your conclusion doesn’t address how it is that they permit a lower standard of truth as compared to any other aspect of their life.
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Good point. Indoctrination and/or need for delusion I suspect would cover that.
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I am Christian because I was brought up that way, but remain so because I find Quaker practice valuable. We are light on dogma.
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May I ask, Clare, what do expect to get out of Christianity at the end of the road that you might not feel you’d get by being a non believer perhaps?
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Fellowship with this particular group of people.
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What s there to say you would not find fellowship outside of Christianity? I am more interested to know if you feel there is something that only Christian will receive over and above the other things.
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It is about what I get now, in the silence of the meeting yesterday and then in our business meeting when we wrestled with a complex issue together.
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So it has little to do with the supposed nature of the divine?
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Of course the personal relationship with God matters.
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This is what I am more interested. What do you personally consider is the payoff for worshiping or following Jesus?
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Oooh, he’s doing really well at being polite, isn’t he?
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I can do ”nice” you know? I have a book on etiketty.
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“Blind faith is a whole lot easier than free thinking independence.”
Bit of a paradox there, but faith IS actually free thinking and independence. It is not being burdened by the constant need to disprove the existence of God, not being chained to idea that one is morally superior to ones fellow humans, not fearing being brainwashed and indoctrinated. There is great freedom and independence that can be found in submitting to the idea of God.
As to blind faith, I cannot ever recall a time when my faith was blind, as in not reinforced in a dozen ways, as in not validated and affirmed by rational thought. I have never taken faith in blindly, never taken anybody’s word for anything, never followed an ideology before I understood it’s purpose.
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So what, for you, is the ultimate reward for being a Christian?
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Well, the best part for me is having an intimate relationship with my Creator here on Earth, right now. Growing in a relationship, getting to know the nature of God, learning why things are the way they are, and who people are and how we were designed to be. Worshipping, celebrating life, love, understanding our purpose.
The ultimate reward however, is reconciliation with God, redemption, eternal life. However, even if I did not believe in eternity, life with faith right here and now is an amazing thing and worth it all by itself.
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Ah…eternal life.
Thank you.
And may I ask how you know you will have this?
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It is clearly found in the bible, reaffirmed during my walk of faith, and shown to be true scientifically in the fact that energy cannot be created or destroyed.
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Fair enough.
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I forgot to ask. Are there preconditions to eternal life?
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As far as I know there are no preconditions to eternal life, but the conditions in which you exist eternally may vary greatly depending on the user.
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If there are no preconditions then why is Christianity deemed a prerequisite?
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As far as I know, Christianity is not a prerequisite, it’s simply a requirement if you’d like some input on your final destination.
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if you’d like some input on your final destination.
This is simply too vague for me to fully grasp. Could you please be more specific?
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Specific about what? We’re all going to die. As far as I know, we’re all going to exist after death. Where we exist and how pleasant it is, is another matter. The bible teaches that there is only one way to the Father. “Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me.”
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Are you referring specifically to heaven and hell?
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“There is great freedom and independence that can be found in submitting to the idea of God.”
There you go, submitting again. I think you illustrate the point that Notes was making. You feel ‘free’ when you believe someone else is holding the strings. I suppose it does relieve a certain burden of life.
You’re right though that faith isn’t necessarily blind for Christians. They do genuinely see a lot of signs and ‘evidence’ that make them believe. The rest of us see that more as coincidence, confirmation bias and the natural progression of life.
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Perhaps its a belief that your own strings are less restrictive than others. Christians like to believe that non-Christians are being tugged by ye olde Lucifer.
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LOL, I am indeed, forever submitting. What kind of fascinates me is people’s need to feel in control all the time. Control really is an illusion, we as humans in fact, have very little control over anything. Even the cells in our body are constantly changing everyday.
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You have a point. But there’s a difference between making decisions because they’re logical, and making decisions because you think it’s what an invisible entity wants you to do, based on your interpretation of a rambling ancient text of mythical stories, and of course that funny feeling that the god God mysteriously transmits. I suppose Christians have as much control as atheists, they just imagine there’s objective guidance, and I suppose that can be very comforting.
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I know it’s hard to understand, but there is some incredible logic to be found in those “rambling ancient texts of mythical stories,” what I call the bible.
As to “comfort,” I’m not so sure. Knowing that I will be held accountable, knowing that death is not the end, are not necessarily comforting thoughts.
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Will you answer my question?
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Give me a chance Jonny! My blogging windows are increasingly tiny. I read it this morning and look forward to seeing the responses. I think I probably agree with you. Surprisingly, given you are the Great Atheist and My Leader.
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…and don’t you forget it!
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Oh, and I did a post on that (exactly) last year, in honour of my dear friend PeW:
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Ah, PeW… I miss him.
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Yeah, me too. I’m hoping if I say it enough he’ll lurk one day and be tempted to pop back. 😀 Ark’s long lost son …
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Violet- You said “former” best blogging buddy. Did things change for you guys? Sorry to be nosy, but I am curious.
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Yes, I failed to fulfill my required quota of compliments about her photographs, hence she donates my Violetwisp Fan-club membership fees to the Society of Draughty-Kilt folk dancers and makes me reapply, completely ignoring the fact that I often feature her pikchures on my blog header.
Wimmin…sheesh!
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That about sums it up. 🙄
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I don’t know, Thinker, you don’t comment for a year, then you stop by for the gossip. You’re high on my list of Bigot’s potential ‘creations’. 😀
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Interesting conversation going on here
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I totally agree Mak. Better not I give my opinion. I will be stoned for sure. LOL!
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Is that a joke about Ark’s nose?
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Just a semi-joke Violet. 😛
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Oi!
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hahahahaha!
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Oh yes, take care lest you be stoned
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They must just remember I grew up in Kimberley and I was taught very well in throwing bricks. LOL!
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My relatives here at home are known as stone throwers. I would dare anyone to start throwing stones 🙂
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Whahahahaha! I’ll teach them how to throw bricks too! LOL!
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Pingback: Religion: Wishing us the fantasy rather than the reality? | The Pink Agendist
I’ll chime in too. I was raised Christian and understood the ins and outs of “Christian Doctrine” from a rather young age. It was in good ole college that I started trying to figure out why I (or, any person) would be Christian. At one point I thought it was because only Christians could truly know what love is. No; even if that were somehow true, you couldn’t qualify “true love” without using religious terminology.
The main attraction point was the selfless people in the local church, people who were trying to “live like Christ.” Now, with a family and full-time job (ah, college…), I’m spending less time out with these friends. One of the keys in personal devotion has been taking my cares and worries to God in prayer. While analyzing a problem can lead to a solution, worrying about a problem helps nothing. Also, praise toward God is another key. Boasting in myself leads to false assurance; I control very little, God controls all things.
“Can’t this be done outside of Christianity?” I’m a lot less dogmatic than perhaps I was as a teenager, believing all the correct doctrine. But, I do believe that God has a purpose for each of our lives and that Jesus was the one man who lived out that purpose to the fullest. Jesus’s devotion to God is my model. It is no longer “Adam,” the characterization of people who foolishly (and we all are guilty of this at one time or another) think their lives could have a higher purpose.
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Thanks for your input. I guess you’d have to agree that the main reason you’re a Christian is that you were indoctrinated from childhood, like most Christians. It’s a difficult and long process to reprogramme ourselves, as many of us know. But it’s interesting that you feel you’ve stayed because of positive role models and how your belief your faith affects your personal behaviour. Also, I can understand that the longing for a higher purpose to life is very seductive, but I guess all religions offer that.
Just a query, you say that Jesus’ devotion to the god God is your role-model. How does that work as a valid aspiration given that they are supposed to be essentially the same being?
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