the bechdel test
I’m afraid I’m at a stage in life where one of the most satisfying parts of the day is when my 2-year-old finally falls asleep and my partner and I can collapse on the couch and watch an addictive TV series. We signed up for Netflix several months ago to enjoy the full glory of Breaking Bad from start to finish.
There are some things you should know about Breaking Bad if you haven’t seen it. It’s got to be one of the best TV series ever. The characters are all super engaging, the script is smooth and flawless and the plot is generally (with some odd bits) fascinating. But I’m not sure it passes the Bechdel Test.
I didn’t know what the Bechdel Test was until a few weeks ago, but I’ve realised that it does genuinely, and in most instances, have a serious impact on my ability to enjoy any film or TV series. Wikipedia tells me that the Bechdel test “asks whether a work of fiction features at least two women who talk to each other about something other than a man.”
I’m really not sure if Breaking Bad did that, but it still managed to be excellent without giving me my usual sense of irritation that the plot revolved around men. So, not all TV programmes have to pass this test to be good. But think about TV programmes and films you’ve seen recently and you’ll be amazed at how few could actually pass this simple equality test. Because we’re fed through our entertainment system that important people are men; we’re fed through our entertainment system that women exist to support the important men; we’re fed through our entertainment system that women exist for the sexual pleasure and breeding purposes of the important men.
Can anyone recommend a TV series or some films that pass this test?
Thinking of the utterly girly-
I am not sure Jane Austen does.
LikeLike
It needn’t be utterly girly. Buffy the Vampire Slayer passed it in every episode, and it had a good mix of characters. Jane Austen is pure chat about men.
LikeLike
The Good Wife 😛
LikeLike
I’ve heard that’s good, and will probably give it a go after Homeland.
LikeLike
It’s excellent. Starts with a scandal, politician cheats on wife, ends up in jail. Then she has to figure out how to make a life for herself on her own- work, new home, raising children etc.
LikeLike
Bones
LikeLike
That’s interesting, I didn’t realise the lead character was female. I always thought it was that David Boreanz guy. Is it not a bit cheapy formulaic like CSI?
LikeLike
Having never watched a full episode of SCI, I couldn’t tell you, but what I have seen of CSI I haven’t really liked.
Not only is the main character a woman, but she is also an atheist. The resulting friction between her and Booth is a recurring theme. Now, if there is a test where an atheist must be portrayed as not being villainous or having an odd or off-putting personality, then Bones would fail. She’s… quirky.
LikeLike
Nothing passes the Bechdel test, but perhaps nothing should. In the course of human events and story telling, it is the interactions between men and women that we look for in a great story. If one were to actually take men out of the picture and portray women with lives having noting to do with men, it would not be the pleasurable equality inducing vision we think we seek.
One of the charming things about Breaking Bad is his relationship with his wife, his sister in law, his attempts to protect and provide for his family. Much like in real life, it may be subtle, but the whole story really revolves around women. Without them, we would simply have a guy diagnosed with cancer who goes on disability and state aid. Not very dramatic, not very exciting. It is because of the women that the men do what they do, which keeps us on the edge of our seats.
LikeLike
Well, people are giving examples of programmes that pass it. It’s nothing to do with writing men out of the action, it’s about portraying women as more than a two-dimensional supporting role to the male action.
LikeLike
Lassie
LikeLike
LOL — hardly. I was watching a show just recently and the mother, father and Timmy are sitting at the table and the mother is giving Timmy some advise. The father pipes in and says “sometimes your mother is right.”. He was dead serious. My jaw dropped to the floor. That used to be one of my favorite shows when I was a kid. Subtle conditioning at its finest.
LikeLike
RE: “The father pipes in and says ‘sometimes your mother is right.’”
Would that have been an inaccurate statement? Are you implying that she was never right? Or that she was always right? On one of the myriad sit-coms in which the wife is the smart one and the husband a goof, would you have been equally offended, had the woman said, “Sometimes your father is right”?
LikeLike
Times have changed. Lassie was not a comedy. He was dead serious. In case you just fell off the turnip truck, a women’s voice was not taken seriously. “Father Knows Best”.
LikeLike
Does a female dog count?
LikeLike
LOLOL
LikeLike
Whahahahahah!
LikeLike
I am more into Sci-Fi, horrors, action and detective movies and series, but it seems Carrie passed the test. 😀
http://bechdeltest.com/
LikeLike
LOL
LikeLike
hahaha Victoria! Don’t laugh because I am glad Carrie made the list. 😛
LikeLike
Of all movies — but I think I saw the bigger picture. 😉
*hug*
LikeLike
I am sure you did. LOL! I am too tired to think beyond a certain point now. The floor is all yours. 😛
LikeLike
I’ve got so many irons in the fire right now that my floor ain’t worth a poot. 😀
LikeLike
Whahahahahah! I don’t mind any irons as long as it’s fun. Had lots of it today too. 😀
LikeLike
Hey — it’s still early there in SA. No puttering out on us now. LOL
LikeLike
No ways! It’s nearly 7pm. Going to do some mindless meditation. hahahaha
LikeLike
7PM? I’m just getting revved up about that time. 😈
Mindless meditation. LOL Well, when you’ve ‘refuel’ in your emptiness, do rejoin the madness.
LikeLike
I’m here – where’s the madness? LOL!
LikeLike
LOL — it’s under the guise of ‘weirdness’. 😉
WB
LikeLike
hahahahaha! Cool! I can go with that! 😀
Thanks! ❤
LikeLike
And yet you find time to watch “Lassie” re-runs from the ’50’s – what a multi-tasker!
LikeLike
Thanks for the link, love the ratings system. I think Carrie was a great film – well, the original anyway, haven’t seen the new one.
LikeLike
You’re welcome V and the same here. Saw the new one – was also good but first Carrie was better. 😀
LikeLike
Veep
LikeLike
Oh yeah, that’s been on my list for a while. Unfortunately I don’t get it on anything. HBO tends to have better standards generally I think. Girls, True Blood, Big Love – I reckon they all pass.
LikeLike
I hardly watch TV, but the few snippets i’ve caught of it it’s pretty good.
LikeLike
I’ve been watching reruns of Dexter on Netflix, and I think it mostly passes. I agree on Bones, that passes with flying colors. And all of the Star Trek series qualify, except for the original series, which is excused because they were already pushing so many other boundaries back in the sixties.
Firefly! I think it’s on Netflix right now too.
LikeLike
Thanks for the tips! I started watching Firefly a while back but didn’t get into it, which was a bit weird because I’ve liked all of Joss Whedon’s other stuff. Dexter had too much gore in the opening scene and I gave up immediately. But Bones sounds promising, if I can get over the fact that Angel from Buffy is all chunky and middle-aged …
LikeLike
Bones doesn’t have any less gore then Dexter, it has more if anything. They do some pretty gross stuff with corpses. But otherwise it’s a really good show. And I still keep expecting that actor to burst into flames every time he goes out in the sun!
LikeLike
I have trouble with programming like Breaking Bad because it makes us sympathize with the bad guy.
I think that television and movies are a major tool that is being used consciously to annihilate any sense of decency and morality in the body politic.
Such heathens are then easily dominated and enslaved.
LikeLike
I’m glad the lack of strong female leads upsets you as well SOM. We should start a campaign together. 🙂
LikeLike
Don’t forget the internet.
LikeLike
Before I defenestrated the TV – Battle Star Galactica passes the test almost every episode and was just a wonderfully dramatic series with enough shooty-bits to make it awesome. 🙂
LikeLike
I loved the original when I was a kid and wondered about watching the new stuff. I’ll keep an eye out for it.
LikeLike
I told my wife about the Bechdel test, and she said she had read about it before and found it amusing. Some of the shows we’ve gone through include 24, Lost, and most of Breaking Bad. She’s big on Parks and Recreation which might pass the test.
LikeLike
I think it does make you realise how limited the portrayal of women is in general. Hey, I don’t think you commented on my previous post, – why are you a Christian? I’m sure Ark would love to see your reply if you get you minute. 🙂
LikeLike
Can anyone recommend a TV series or some films that pass this test?
Dallas?
LikeLike
Films that revolve around wimmin? Hmmm?
Alien. Ripley was always so cool. Even the baddest alien was female.
Alice in Wonderland
Tomb Raider (Lara Croft)
Steel Magnolias
Mona Lisa Smile. (Julia Roberts)
Erin Brockovich. ( Julia Roberts) Loved this film.
Emmanualle. Sylvia Krystal ( so I’ve been told)
LikeLike
Poor Ark, I’m not going to be rude to you, but you really just don’t get it, do you? It’s nothing to do with the plot revolving around women, it’s the fact that most fiction deals women two-dimensional supporting roles with their value being based on their interaction with men. It’s not a two-way street and it doesn’t reflect reality. The programmes people are recommending aren’t about women, they just have a natural balance of character development.
LikeLike
Alien is the perfect example. All the alien movies, in fact.
And Mona Lisa smile highlighted this issue perfectly, as did Erin Brokovitch.
And I presume you realised the inclusion of Sylvia Krystal was tongue in cheek?.
LikeLike
Alien isn’t that great an example. While Ripley is undoubtedly a strong female lead, most of the rest of the characters are male and there are only very brief (I think two) interactions with the other female. It passes the test, but barely. The others you named because they revolve around women (that’s what you thought this meant – I’m just clarifying it doesn’t) although I checked and they do pass the test.
LikeLike
“Alien isn’t that great an example. While Ripley is undoubtedly a strong female lead, most of the rest of the characters are male “
I agree. Ripley’s character was one of a hyper-masculine male with boobs.
LikeLike
You’re right, she’s a strong female because she behaved like a man …
LikeLike
We have issues with terminology. You are highlighting the fact that female leads are still cast as playing some sort of lip service to men?
Don’t disagree in most cases.
Maybe you should consider how many script writers and/or directors/producers are woman?
Do a Google search maybe?
This must surely have a lot to do with perception. Seeing the role through the eyes of a woman rather than a man.
I can relate to this. It is not easy to ‘write women” ( think as ) as if I were a woman. Damn near impossible. I have tried!
I imagine varying degrees of empathy play a part.
Victoria might be able to provide a neurological answer?
How you feel is not how I feel.
Something like this?
The chaffinch is nice. My dad phoned a while back raving about how one had been frequenting his bird table over the previous week. He’d never seen one before.
LikeLike
Yes, but again I think you’re missing the point. Some stories are about men and some stories are about women. Fair enough. But most stories are about society generally, yet women are portrayed overwhelmingly as a mere two-dimensional support to men. It’s not healthy. Perhaps you’re correct and it’s because most script-writers are men – because men generally hold the purse strings and make the decisions about what’s made, and they’re attracted to stories about important men being supported by two-dimensional women. Indoctrination that keeps women in their place.
LikeLike
Well, I’m a man. What do I know?
Ellen Ripley was always hot.
LikeLike
Predictable as ever.
LikeLike
I can’t help it. It’s my genes. Or in the case of Ripley her jeans.
*shrugs*
LikeLike
I’m confused by your discussions with SOM. Do you think he’s for real?
*fake laugh to make you feel better about your bad jokes*
LikeLike
” *fake laugh to make you feel better about your bad jokes* ”
LMAO — I nearly choked on my breakfast.
LikeLike
Aw, poor Ark. It just gets sadder when other people are laughing at people not laughing at his jokes … 😈
LikeLike
I am simply practicing for when I tackle Brandon in Round 3. Brandon’s real, right?
LikeLike
Ah, ok. Fair enough. It just seems terribly real sometimes and I get concerned.
LikeLike
@ Violet
As you should.
LikeLike
Yes, he does have that effect. Bit like listening to Jacob Zuma during Question Time in Parliament.
LikeLike
No, I mean you seem to be taking him and his opinions seriously. I mean the fact that every sentence starts of a new line and he repeats mantra-like nonsense is an indication of high humour.
Christianity made civilisation.
Atheists think something came out of nothing.
But even better than that!
LikeLike
Oh that! No, I realise he is repeating stuff he babbled ages ago.
The truth? I think you could do far worse than having him sit in the Spam Tin permanently.
He’s not even fun anymore.
You’d get much more meaningful conversation without him.
Even Insanity and Brandon are miles and miles ahead on the ” We don’t need straitjackets, honest.” chart.
LikeLike
LOL
LikeLike
Ark, this might be a good time to accept the fact that you’ve inadvertently stumbled into the internet version of “The Talk,” or “The View,” or “The Chew,” and simply back out as gracefully as possible – the age old philosophical question has always been, “If a man walks into the woods and speaks, and there’s no woman around to hear him, is he still wrong?” On this thread, I have reason to believe the answer would unequivocally be a resounding chorus of “YES!” We could start our own, and call it, “The Chaw.”
I think that what most are missing, is that the main purpose of any piece of entertainment, whether TV or movies, is to make money. In the ’50’s, one of the main endorsements of a “must-watch” film, was that it’s budget was one or more million dollars! Today, that amount will hardly get a low-budget “B” movie made. Each piece must be financed by investors, if a movie, or the networks, if a TV series, and extensive research is done to determine what the public wants to see. No audience, no profit, as simple as that. When the majority of ticket-buyers want to see a movie or watch a TV series that passes the Bechdel test, one will be financed, and it has nothing with social indoctrination, just hard, cold cash.
LikeLike
I don’t watch TV anymore, unless football and cricket count and the type of movies I watch normally involve Grumpy old men or Groundhogs or blokes called Brian.
I was just making up the numbers….;)
LikeLike
See what I mean?
LikeLike
“When the majority of ticket-buyers want to see a movie or watch a TV series that passes the Bechdel test, one will be financed, and it has nothing with social indoctrination, just hard, cold cash.” That’s not true. All the programmes people mention here pass the test and are profitable – Battlestar Galactica, Bones, The Good Wife, Veep. The problem is they currently in the minority because catchy series can be made just as popular without developing female characters. I can’t believe how much you are missing the point. I’m actually quite surprised, even given the depth of sexism you and Ark are prone to sinking to, that you can’t recognise this, and won’t acknowledge it’s an issue that should be usefully addressed for the good of society (given the role that TV and films play in cultural indoctrination)
LikeLike
RE: “That’s not true. All the programmes people mention here pass the test and are profitable –”
Actually, it’s quite true, as anyone knows who has any knowledge of the entertainment industry. The shows you mention had other factors involved as well, that viewers wanted to follow – this is not to say that no one wants to see shows that “pass the Bechdel test,” just that unless market research indicates that that would be the primary viewing factor, no film would be made just for the expression of that viewpoint.
RE: “I’m actually quite surprised, even given the depth of sexism you and Ark are prone to sinking to, that you can’t recognise this, and won’t acknowledge it’s an issue that should be usefully addressed for the good of society.”
At no point did I maintain that it was not an issue that should be addressed – again, I only stressed that economics were the primary motivating factor behind any piece of entertainment, other than documentaries. But as to, “for the good of society,” I certainly am not vain enough to begin to purport to know what is “good for society.”
You see, this is where “indoctrination” can come into play – a good writer can fill 120 pages with action, adventure, or whatever market research determines is viable, and still have room to slide in sub-plots that get across any message he or she wishes to deliver, without detracting from the more profitable elements of the piece.
LikeLike
“But as to, “for the good of society,” I certainly am not vain enough to begin to purport to know what is “good for society.””
Ah, apologies Arch! I hadn’t realised that expecting women to be portrayed as three-dimensional characters whose existence stretches beyond talking about men wasn’t a basic expectation in a fair society. How vain of me to think I could judge such a thing!
“a good writer can fill 120 pages with action, adventure, or whatever market research determines is viable, and still have room to slide in sub-plots that get across any message he or she wishes to deliver, without detracting from the more profitable elements of the piece.” So what? None of this infringes on the ability to portray women as something more than support fluff for men.
Repeat: you just don’t seem to get it at all.
LikeLike
“Repeat: you just don’t seem to get it at all.”
He seems to be on a roll today. 😉
LikeLike
Ha! Aliens, with Ripley fighting the Queen to save the child. That scene works!
I rather like Revenge. It is utter hokum, a teen drama on E4. Emily Thorne’s father was framed and murdered, and she seeks revenge against the Graysons, wicked cavalier capitalists. There is a constant fretting, with various mcguffins, and shadowy echoes of the past, and of course Revenge cannot be taken as then the series would end, but there are lots of scenes with Emily and Victoria Grayson bitching and snarking at each other.
LikeLike
I saw that a couple of times in Argentina. Vampire Diaries probably passes the test as well (I’m a closet fan).
LikeLike
Thank you , Claire. At least someone understands what I’m trying to get at.
LikeLike
Gonna step out for a breath of fresh air – can’t breathe – too much estrogen in the atmosphere – aaarg!
(Somebody save my seat –)
LikeLike
LOL Arch — you’re smelling the stench of your own testosterone. It just becomes more pungent when around estrogen. 😛
LikeLike
Clearly, you’re confusing stench with aroma (I have letters of reference–), and there’s certainly nothing wrong with the aroma of estrogen either, but when there’s SO much of it, packed into such a small space, it’s positively asphyxiating!
LikeLike
Awww, poor whittle one. You want me to kiss your boo boo?
LikeLike
I could show you where it hurts —
LikeLike
Sorry — I don’t kiss ass.
LikeLike
I didn’t realize that the hallowed art of economics was divorced from the rest of patriarchal society.
Obviously once economics is involved, we had better shut down our lady-brains and simply nod along with sage wisdom flowing from up on high…
Tell me more about how marketing has *nothing* to do with race, class and gender and how audiences magically (or not so magically once patriarchy is factored in) just want more dude centric entertainment.
LikeLike
I had to watch a snippet of Breaking Bad for my creative writing course this past semester – the engaging characters, the dynamic plot, and the general sense of excitement won me over right away. It’s great that you’re considering the Bechdel test too; I actually read Fun Home by Alison Bechdel in my first semester of college and I’d highly recommend it if you have time to read it. Meanwhile, I don’t watch too much TV to provide any recommendations there, but there are definitely a lot of books that pass the test (as you may have guessed, more so those written by female authors…)
LikeLike
Sabrina the Teenage Witch. One of my favourites – altough to tell you the truth, I do not look so much TV anyway. Perhaps Allo’ Allo’ could also pass.
Strange thing about Sabrina is, that the series had age recommendations of 18 in Finnish video release and 15 in Denmark and 11 in the rest of the Scandinavian countries. The Nordic countries are few of the most liberal countries in the world and the series tells an educating and funny story about teenagers. Why was it marked , is a total mystery to me. It has no violence, or sex in it. It does not even have “cursing” in it. In my opinion one could show it to kids who are not even in school yet and it would have only a positive effect on their ethical development. Unless, the Nordic sensors thought that the higly competetive school environment whith such concepts as “popularity” in the US schools was the harmfull model in the series, I am lost why they set the recommendation limits as high (or in case of Finland even higher) as whith a lot of action movies.
LikeLike