how do you know you’re going to heaven?
Our friends at Grace Church have an application form for people who want to become members. One of the questions on the application form is quite intriguing:
How do you know you are a Christian and going to Heaven?
What kind of sales pitch can one Christian give to another Christian to prove they are going to Heaven? What separates a proper Christian from wishful-thinking-Christian, and how can another human being evaluate that?
Lots of Christians believe that if you don’t have a full body immersion baptism, your sins haven’t been cleansed and you’ll go to hell. If you think a god that requires a bath in exchange for eternal life is petty, it gets worse. What about the god that gets picky about his oils? I read a post recently that celebrated a Catholic convert joining the fold, where one of the concerned commenters asked the recent convertee if the priest had used vegetable oil or olive oil (for what I don’t know) because if it been vegetable oil, his eternal soul would be imperilled.
The truth is, that given the vast differences in interpretation of the Bible that exist in the world, no Christian can be sure they are a proper Christian and that they are going to heaven. Yet for some reason, they all think their interpretation and their rituals are correct.
Lots of Christian denominations are waking up the fact that their claim to be the correct interpretation of Christianity is, quite frankly, improbable. So, officially, they accept that anyone who has “Christ in their heart” (whatever that means) is a Christian.
Unfortunately, at an individual level, everyone still thinks everyone else is doing it wrong. Ask the average Catholic what they think of Protestant worship and vice versa. Ask any Fundamentalist what they think of anyone who believes the earth is over 6000 years old. Ask anyone who’s not a Mormon what they think of Joseph Smith’s special revelation.
Everyone’s wrong except for me. And as an atheist, I join that noble human tradition of looking at every denomination of Christianity and every religion in the world and asking, “How on earth can they believe that?” The only difference being, I can’t see the one that looks correct, or in any way possible.
I find the many layers to this very interesting. Churches are publicly softening their positions- and so we’re left with the question “If following certain parts of your doctrine isn’t really necessary, then how about the others?”
Who gets to choose?
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Good point. As soon as they suggest other Christians can go to heaven too, they’re acknowledging their rituals and particular beliefs are unnecessary. No pope required.
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Wisp
This is yet another example of atheist propaganda.
Western Civilization was built upon Christianity and the teachings of the Catholic Church.
Without this, and the saving grace of Jesus Christ we would all be eating raw meat and reading Karl Marx, so, I’m not going to waste my time explaining something that you have no desire to know
The eloquent content of my comments speaks for itself and if you read the Bible, you could know what I know.
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That’s pretty impressive! You sort of got it. Your biggest problem is you didn’t leave the trademark spacing between the ranty bit-sentences. You need to study your muse more closely. 😀
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Kiss-kiss hugs-hugs sweety darling. Lol.
It was a bit of fun. I didn’t expect you to fall for it…but maybe you paused just for a fraction? A tiny ‘ay-up’ moment. And that was good enough for moi.
How’s Scotland this morning?
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It’s raining. Horrible. I possibly would have fallen for it if you’d done the spacing correctly … until I remembered that you’re in South Africa and he’s in Texas. You’ve forgotten to sign out of alter egos in the past. Is it nice down your way today?
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Yes I knew you’d pick up on the altered egos thing, which is why I didn’t try too hard to conceal the ”evidence”. Parodying me parodying SOM
Today is sunny , and cloudy around 19c. Slight breeze, which is about right for this time of year – winter being on its way.
Wind chimes pinging away merrily in the wild plum tree, dogs going mental; from the sound of it they’ve let one of their balls roll into the pond again, and one of the cats, Mister Nibbles, seems intent on lying on top of the modem on my desk for some strange reason. Never done that before!
The Aloes outside my office door have flowered and we’ve had a couple of sun birds visit. Only seen females so far, but Ems digital camera has no telephoto lens so I may have to go buy film for my old Olympus.
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Stop making feeble excuses for your sloppy spacing error.
You atheists are all the same.
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By the way, I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but it’s a stunning shot of a blue tit. Possibly my finest. 😀
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Really? I didn’t notice.
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Well, that’s why you’re not going to heaven!!
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Hahahahahahaha!
Ark you sure have made my weekend! Well done brother.
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The person that made a big deal out of Baptism oil was in error.
The Catholic Church recognizes the Protestant baptism in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
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Ah okay, so none of the rituals in the Catholic Church are necessary? The celibate male priesthood with the king priest in Rome is a waste of time?
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Wisp,
Catholic teachings are that the sacraments are necessary for salvation.
But it is not our place to judge.
God is the Supreme Judge.
It is the duty of the disciple to serve God by serving mankind here and now, in this world.
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How do you serve mankind, SOM?
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I preach the Good News to atheists.
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“Everyone’s wrong except for me.”
That’s Debilis’s slogan! I found his weak spot, though… It’s “other” Christians interpretations. Hit him with a definition that contradicts him (like from CARM) and he fly’s off in a flap.
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But oddly he seems to think that most Christians believe what he believes. He obviously doesn’t get out the basement much. I’ve asked him for clarification on some of his beliefs, because he’s awfully vague.
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Vague is an understatement. Try this number on size:
“In the case of the Paschal Lamb, I’ve always taken it as a symbol of God’s love for humanity, and willingness to sacrifice to cross the incalculable metaphysical distance between God and ourselves.”
How can there be any “distance,” let alone an incalculable distance, between a god who is everywhere with anything?
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John
You atheists will never understand.
Because you are the scum on the earth.
Christianity created civilisation and you think something came out of nothing.
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The spacing is correct, but you lack SOM’s Gonzo flair. Practice, though… I can see something positive emerging here
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It looks as though I’ve taken up rent free residence in the minds of Wisp and Dirty Bird.
However, I have decided to leave the Dirty Bird nest for Wisp’s rapier wit and hearty home cooking.
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Dirty Bird = Arch
Dirty Man = Ark
I don’t know why you keep confusing them.
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I don’t like the question.
I am alright, amn’t I?
It will be alright, won’t it?
are questions in my heart all the time, however much I reason against them.
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It would be interesting to hear from more Christians about this. I suspect most feel the same way.
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Because the only logical conclusion of not having widespread evidence for the existence of a loving, omnipotent, omniscient god is that either everyone gets into heaven, or no one does. Either way, the Christian conception is a load of hooey.
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Hmm, are you suggesting there’s some kind of inconsistency there?
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Could be.
What I love are the books that tell you what heaven will be like.
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I thought heaven was a place you feel in your heart you are headed to? I was lied to it seems.
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I’m sure for many it is …
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When I grew up in fundamentalism they taught that you must be baptized by immersion in water to be saved. I remember thinking, “What if I was in a car on my way to being baptized and I got in a car wreck and died?” Even then I realized just how odd it is to think that the ritual saves us. And, it gets odder. It seems that the Corinthians were doing what Mormons do: baptism for the dead. (What you mean that’s in the bible? Yep. It’s there.)
IMHO this kind of thinking is due to the human obsession with feeling secure. However, Paul actually says we should work out our salvation with fear and trembling. There is an urgency to this short life. If you get comfortable, you are no longer being challenged. Being a Christian is risky, it’s not about a stream of good feelings. It says repent from your evil, stop making excuses. It says take care of the world, don’t just love yourself and your family, there are others out there too!
What’s worse is we turn the cross or sacrament like baptism into a legal contract. “If I simply do this, then God must save me, it says it right here on line 55.” This sort of thinking leads us to behave how we want and cash in on the legal deal. If I remember correctly there were some emperors when Christendom began that would literally put off baptism until their death bed, so they could have the assurance of salvation. Thinking of God as a legal machine is just wrong and abuses the forgiveness we may receive.
I guess I’ve written too much already just to agree your assessment of how ridiculous the conversation seems. 🙂
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I read a comment recently on someone else’s blog (I think it must have been Ruth’s post about Christians claiming ex-Christians were never true believers) where somebody did seem to think that by ticking appropriate ritual boxes they were guaranteed a place in heaven, should it exist. I find the variety of answers that are found in different denominations fascinating – it’s like being transported back to the Middle Ages.
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You definitely read that on my blog, if nowhere else. To this bloke on my blog’s thinking belief isn’t as important as a desire to believe. Even if one doesn’t actually believe so long as they want to believe, are baptized, take the sacraments, repent, and are obedient to the god God one is saved. Once baptized a Christian always a Christian, but you could still go to the bad, bad place if you do something wrong and fail to repent before you die.
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Do you know what denomination he is? Must be Catholic or Fundamentalist – I don’t think any other current brand of Christianity could elicit such fear.
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He revealed last night that he is the son of a fundamentalist Baptist preacher but he abandoned that and is now pursuing an Eastern Orthodox Christianity, which still apparently isn’t very comforting to him with regards to hell.
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That’s weird, they usually seem quite chilled, don’t they? I suppose it’s the same god in the back of his mind so as long as he believes it exists, the fear will be there.
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As an ex-Old Apostolic we were taught that heaven and hell are here on earth and that you create your own heaven or your own hell, but some of the priests told me once that if you can get someone to come to church and thereby ‘save’ them, your path to heaven will be cleared. I burst out laughing and told him they should stick to one story and stop lying to people. I am sure you can imagine the reaction on that Violet. 😆
Anyways, I love what George Clooney said once : ‘I don’t believe in heaven and hell. I don’t know if I believe in God. All I know is that as an individual, I won’t allow this life – the only thing I know to exist – to be wasted.’ 😀
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Haha, nice story. They’re all making it up as they go along. Vegetable oil, olive oil, fully body immersion, and now saving other people. Someone should make a list of all the ways people are told they can get to this eternal paradise. Blowing yourself up in popular in some sectors.
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hahaha, yes! The ‘new’ and ‘improved’ versions! Pfffftttt!
I surely can make a list of all their ‘promises’ and ‘none delivered’ – doesn’t it remind you of politicians? 😆
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