christians face the genocidal tendencies of their loving god God
God has never pronounced judgement on an innocent person in all of history. These were debauched, bloodthirsty, idolatrous pagan nations with whom He had withheld His wrath for a long time. Even His horrific judgements on His own covenant people Israel were executed in punishment for equally horrific sin. According to Romans 3 there are no innocent people anyway. God could have justly exterminated and damned everybody after Adam’s fall. The miracle of grace is that He saves anyone. … He [God] also gets to do whatever He pleases with His own creation, including flooding it to death and ordering the extermination of the Canaanites and Amalakites.(and much MUCH more)
There’s a frightening looking chap called Tiribulus that some of us met round at Rebecca LuElla Miller’s blog (from the last post). He jumped in like a knight in shining armour to defend Becky from “hateful pagans” on an “unholy campaign”. In conversation mainly with Ark, he gave the above quotes that I thought it would be nice to share.
When considering the murderous stories from the Bible that he refers to, I’m left wondering how Christians can resolve this. Is it reasonable to be a Bible-believing Christian and imagine that the god God could be utterly benevolent? Self delusion in the face of these horrific stories is clearly not a healthy attitude towards the search for ‘Truth’. Living in an age where we seek to modify anti-social behaviour through sympathetic human-devised interventions in the form of therapy, medication or other behavioural modifying techniques, why would anyone conclude that an all-powerful creator deity could only have wielded furious and vengeful destruction?
Just to confirm that Tiribulus has expressed that he is happy for his comments to republished:
“Ohhhh, I insist and would be greatly honored Madam. I am fully persuaded that my comments are the truth as it is in Christ Jesus or I wouldn’t make them. I would consider it the favor of my Lord if He would allow me the joy of watching even the scorn of sinners work His righteous ends. I ask only that you leave my thought intact and not hack n slash my words so as to convey what I did not intend.”
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God has never pronounced judgement on an innocent person in all of history
Well, ignoring the fact that not even Jewish rabbis believe the Pentateuch is real, wouldn’t the slaughter of infants and foetus’s throughout OT contradict this rather odd man’s proclamation?
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Good points, John. I had a conversation with a believer recently in which I mentioned that Jewish rabbis do not usually interpret the Pentateuch literally. However, being that this believer is a Christian, he skimmed over the whole issue and sent me links to Christian “rabbis” who do believe the Pentateuch contains real-life history!
And, sadly, I know the Christian answer to your query. I’m sure Tiribulus would say something similar, too. Original sin, man, original sin. There are simply no innocent humans for the just and loving god YHWH.
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At this level of evangelical apologetics Christianity is such a strange religion: selling an imaginary cure to an imaginary disease.
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Exactly. And, I like your phrasing. It’s very appropriate.
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Adam and Eve’s only crime could have been ignorance which they had no choice over. The god of the bible passed a sentence on ignoramuses
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You have a link to the original post?
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You’re so lazy John, two click job! 🙂
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Strange man. I took a peek at his blog and couldn’t make any sense of it. Seems he might be mentally unstable.
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Yeah, I couldn’t find anything worth commenting on there either. He’s been ranting at the ‘Defeating the Dragons’ blog author as well. It’s pretty incoherent and kind of aggressive. Ark followed him there and I had a little lurk earlier … One of his funniest comments is where he likens himself to Ark – chip off the old block apparently! And to be honest, I can see the similarity!
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Here, lemme help ya out. From my FACEBOOK PAGE” earlier this year
The day after the Newtown shooting where all those children were mercilessly gunned down, a known Christ hater asked at T-Nation if God is perfect in light of this event. The following is what I told him. I was reminded of this conversation by Pastor Chris’s sermon yesterday: http://tiribulus.net/audio/brooks_acts2.mp3
===========================================
THE God, who in the beginning created the heavens and the earth, is Himself the standard by which ALL things are measured. That means when he commands Joshua to kill every man, women, child and beast in Canaan that that is PERFECTLY holy, righteous, just and good. It means that when he causes Israel to eat their own children as reported in Jeremiah 19 that that is PERFECTLY holy righteous, just and good. It means that if He has decreed all of the horrific human misery, suffering and death in all of history that that is PERFECTLY holy righteous, just and good. It means that if He has decreed the existence of billions of human beings for the expressed purpose of casting them into the lake of fire in judgement for sin that He also decreed that that is PERFECTLY holy, righteous, just and good. It means that if He has purposed that everything we consider to be pointless evil, immorally unjust and unthinkably unfair shall be so ordered by divine mechanisms known only to Himself, to His own glory for reasons sufficient unto Himself that that is PERFECTLY holy, righteous, just and good.
It also means that His not caring one bit how you (or I) feel about that is most assuredly PERFECTLY holy, righteous, just and good. I sleep like a baby knowing that every time I hear about some gut wrenching blood curdling act of barbaric depravity that my Father God has from eternity seen fit to assign purpose to it that is PERFECTLY holy, righteous, just and good. IF IT WERE MY OWN FAMILY? You ask? Most ESPECIALLY then would I fall to my knees and worship Him knowing that evil has NOT triumphed, but that a PERFECTLY holy, righteous, just, good AND LOVING God who calls me brother, bride and son though I myself belong in that lake of fire will receive honor and glory by my praising His name while the world loses it’s collective mind. EveryTHING and everyONE belongs to HIM. His exaltation and glory IS the purpose for all that is. No more PERFECTLY purpose could ever exist.
=============================================
OR…. He’s doin the best He can and things get away from Him sometimes. Actually most times. I tell you nay. The movement of every particle in this universe is governed by his invincible providence.
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“That means when he commands Joshua to kill every man, women, child and beast in Canaan that that is PERFECTLY holy, righteous, just and good.”
It’s disturbing that you could believe mass murder is ever justified. But to believe it could be commanded by a benevolent being of any description (nevermind an all-powerful being responsible for creating the things it wishes to destroy) is truly bizarre. Horrible question, but would you kill a child if you believed the invisible god God wanted you to? Of course not, and why would any such deity ask that of a human being.
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I hope he has good medicine so the voices in his head don’t say go postal today. He will believe it is PERFECTLY holy and righteous. /shudder/
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If what you say is true, Tribulus, I see no reason to worship such a demented entity.
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If you did, He wouldn’t be God and His word would be a lie. You are SUPPOSED to hate HIM. He promises you will until raised from death in sin to new life in His risen Christ by which only are men allowed to escape their darkness. I know this first hand.
Until then, if you agreed with me, it would be a sure sign of the error of my preaching.
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So neither dogs nor carrots don’t go to heaven, eh Greg? Just lunatics, like you…
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John Zande asks: “So neither dogs nor carrots go to heaven, eh Greg? Just lunatics, like you…”
you had a double negative in there sir. I fixed it for you. Only man bears the image of God as an accountable moral agent. Therefore only man is damned or saved. Yes, from your vantage point I am a lunatic. I understand.
Please listen this song which captures this perfectly. Three and a half minutes.
I promise I will reciprocate if you have something of comparable length for me to read or listen to.
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Sadly, you are a dictator’s wet dream.
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So I did. how unlike me. Thank you.
Greg, may I ask you a question: How old is the earth?
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“Only man bears the image of God as an accountable moral agent.” – and how do you know this Mr. T? Because of something a bunch of Bronze Age priests wrote 3,000 years ago? They also said the earth was flat, and space consisted of water, do you believe that too?
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Exactly. The behaviors of this Iron/Bronze Age war god is quite telling. This god God lacked complete understanding of the effects of toxic stress on brain development, and the psychological, physiological and neurological (short and long-term) consequences of his methodologies. He did just the opposite of what should be done (including prevention) if humanity is to be cohesive, civil, cooperative, peaceful, and empathic. What he was pissed off at was that they didn’t bow, obey, and worship him. A very mentally ill god.
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The all-powerful being that can’t prevent, can’t cure, and can only destroy. It’s sad that some people’s experience of life can lead them to accept this as a possible scenario based in reality.
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Weapons-grade face palm.
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What a lovely butterfly Violet.
If a person believes might makes right, then all the evil stuff done by the Biblical god seems justified to that person. The problem is, wether such beliefs, as might makes right, are percieved as excuses for that particular religion and the imaginary feeling of safety it gives to people in face of death, because people hold such beliefs in any case, or if the religion is the reason why people hold such disgusting and vile moralist views for some other reason. How could we ever teach a person who truly has such misconception about ethics, that he/she believes might makes right, that it really is not so?
Some less morally twisted Christians have presented an opposite excuse to me. They say, that the Biblical violence and obvious immorality of their god only reflects the cultural backround of the Bible writers. This is just as poorly formed defence, because those same people are quite ready to condemn Islam, and cultural context seems to give no leeways for the ill behaviour and values of the Allah character in the holy books of Islam.
Then you have those individuals who rewind and act as if they had never heard what you just said, or what the Bible says. Why is it that the Christians have so many completely disagreeing approaches to this same issue?
These are just examples of how people resolve the cognitive dissonancce of having different morals to the dudes in a primitive society who wrote the books (now revered as holy). By making up excuses for their god. But if one in these modern times already holds moral values that are equal to those tribal dudes in the brink of the desert, then that is a bit frightening, I guess.
It is completely different matter how far any person is willing to go to follow that tribally moralistic model their holy books offer. Are people fanatics before they act, or does an extreme opinion make a person a fanatic?
Besides, I do not find Tiribulus at all “a frightening looking chap”. To me he looks mostly a cuddly chap.
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Thanks Raut, I haven’t had picture praise in months! Sadly, it’s an old recycled picture, I’ve not taken anything new for way too long. I guess you being a Motorhead fan Tiribulus looks comparatively cuddly. He’s certainly being very polite and jovial on this post. I’ve seen some of his more confrontational work on another blog.
But yes, the whole question of how people with today’s generally held moral values in the western world can accept the genocidal rage of the OT god is rather puzzling. Tiribulus takes the increasingly less common Christian route of believing we’re all so intrinsically evil we deserve it. I just wonder what kind of experiences of other people, of society and of life, those who hold this viewpoint must have. After all, it’s not difficult to see primarily the good in other people, the struggles they face, and also understand the roots of difficult or unpleasant behaviour. Seeing people as rotten from the outset must require some dark imagination combined with terrible experiences …
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“I do not find Tiribulus at all ‘a frightening looking chap’.” – I agree, rautakyy – stick him in a red suit with a wide, patent-leather black belt, cover that head that looks like its’s spent too much time in a bowling-ball polisher, with a red flannel stocking cap, and have him say, “Ho, ho, ho!” and he wouldn’t scare anybody when he rides in on his Harley.
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This is pathetic, no one is giving any charity to Tiribulus. No one is engaging his arguments at all. Instead, all I see is attack on his character.
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Why does it not surprise me that you would defend him? You have very similar views based on previous comments. Example from Matt’s blog:
You even yelled it at me that if your god told me to be unethical, I had better do it. After all, I owe him, I should be grateful. Brandon, how can you not see the error of your ways?
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Yes, my view is that God can be justified for bringing judgment on the Canaanites. What worries me most is failing to engage because of overconfidence.
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Overconfidence, or prosocial reaction? Seriously, Brandon. How can you project an accusation of being overconfidence when you say you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the resurrection of Jesus happened and that the Christian god is “the” god?
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Overconfidence can prevent us from be willing to dissect a view and get at the core disagreement. If we dissected my belief in the resurrection we might find out where the core disagreement resides, but if one just dismisses an idea because one is so confident it’s false, this can only be failure to engage. It’s a rejection of free thinking.
Let’s take Nate as a positive example. I feel confident that Nate knows something about the core differences between me and him because he engages with an appropriate confidence level. In the end, we disagree but at least it’s not two sides that are blasting out assertions without any sort of comparison and analysis.
I’m not specifically accusing you, Victoria, please don’t get that impression. It’s just a generalized criticism for these emotionally-charged issues.
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Brandon, we’ve been over this many times. We live in a world where there are people who are willing to bring harm to others because they want so badly to be acknowledged by the alpha chimpanzee in the troop.
We already know what the core disagreement is. You justify unethical behavior at the hopes of being acknowledged by an alpha male god who’s got all the resources and holds the key to eternal life.
Now, I ask you — where is your humanity?
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This is a wildly twisted strawman argument and demonstrates lack of charity. You don’t know our core disagreement on this issue.
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I certainly do know the core issue Brandon. Everyone is evil — sinners (including children) until they accept your alpha male god who has got all the resources, keys to eternity and demands total loyalty even if your alpha male god is unethical and expects you to justify unethical behavior because he’s the kind of the jungle See Tiribulus recent comment and justification for horrific, antisocial behavior.
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Correction: I meant to write king of the jungle.
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“he engages with an appropriate confidence level” – once again, an opinion stated as fact.
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He’s all yours, Neuro – you KNOW how I feel about him —
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After hundreds of exchanges with Brandon, one can only come to the conclusion that he cannot see what we see, and why we are appalled by his god’s behavior.
He and T believe that we are sinful, evil creatures, willed into existence by an all-powerful, all-knowing, perfect god so that he can forgive us for not being perfect. He’s in love with us, and he just wants us to love, worship and obey him back, forever. We are to be loyal at the expense of critical thinking, common sense and empathy.
As Phil Hellenes so eloquently put it —
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Oh, fark, it’s that dickhead again. For the gods’ sake, the Pentaeuch is fiction you plonker! Why don’t you go and live with William Lane Craig, he too is a lover of Divine Command Theory.
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“Oh, fark, it’s that dickhead again.” – Ark, could you, like, I don’t know, give them numbers? Like “Dickhead#1,” “Dickhead#2,” etc.? Without a scorecard, and what with there being so many Dickheads coming out of the woodwork, I’m losing touch of which Dickhead you mean! And you KNOW how I hang on your every word —
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My dear Arch, it matters not that they are numbered, only that they ”are” and that you are not among their ranks.
Be at peace and go and play with your Rosary or something.
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“go and play with your Rosary” – is THAT what they’re calling it now? It’s hard to keep up, what with all the metaphors flying here and there —
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John and Victoria are the only people to mention anything about his character, and they both gave separate comments raising very good points he hasn’t responded to. Isn’t the slaughter of babies and murder of pregnant women with their bellies slashed open potentially the killing of innocent souls (by the standards of Christians)? That’s John’s first point. Did you see Raut’s comment? Or Makagutu’s? Even Arch didn’t say anything rude.
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I didn’t meant to accuse all comments of character attacks, I’m sorry saying that.
Let me just suggest a point of engagement. The only way to have this discussion is to assume the Judeo-Christian deity exists for the sake of argument. What Tiribulus is suggesting is that no one is actually innocent. Others are saying children are innocent. So, this is the point of disagreement and where all the engagement should start. The questions to answer would be: Why are children innocent or guilty?
Now, that’s Tiribulus’ line of reasoning. It’s not necessarily how all Christians think.
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“The only way to have this discussion is to assume the Judeo-Christian deity exists for the sake of argument.” – you’d like that, wouldn’t you? What makes you the sole determiner of “the only way”? That sounds a bit like your theology, doesn’t it?
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This is an important point, Arch. In order to talk about God’s moral character you must assume some hypothetical deity. Otherwise, one position would be imposing their worldview. You can’t say God does not exist and is evil, that doesn’t make sense. You have to say, hypothetically God could not be justified for ordering the conquest of Canaan.
Isn’t that much agreeable?
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I can certainly say, “IF there were a god – blah, blah, blah —” and get my point across, while leaving no doubt in anyone’s mind that I don’t come even close to entertaining the thought that such a will-o-the-wisp actually exists.
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Violetwisp says:”The all-powerful being that can’t prevent, can’t cure, and can only destroy. It’s sad that some people’s experience of life can lead them to accept this as a possible scenario based in reality.”
HAHA!! I don’t have time now sorry. Talk about a straw god though.
Violetwisp says:”John and Victoria are the only people to mention anything about his character, and they both gave separate comments raising very good points he hasn’t responded to.”
I don’t generally defend my character. My heart and life are before my God and I maintain a very public persona. Talking about me a is a waste time. I’m an open book.
Violetwisp says:”Isn’t the slaughter of babies and murder of pregnant women with their bellies slashed open potentially the killing of innocent souls (by the standards of Christians)? “
No. One bite from a piece of forbidden fruit was sufficient to plunge the whole of subsequent humanity into eternal perdition. It’s not the fruit or the particular act of disobedience that makes it so consequential. It’s WHO it is against that gives it it’s weight. The offspring of sinners are themselves sinners. Once you understand who it is who is being offended, the question becomes why God in his infinite mercy and love spares ANYbody . Oh, you’ll REALLY hate that.
Violetwisp says:”Even Arch didn’t say anything rude.”
Feel absolutely free to be rude. I don’t live here. Besides, I promise you I CAN take it. With a 🙂 God has given me a titanium exoskeleton where most modern limp wristed girly boys keep their skin. Personal attacks make me yawn. I expect them. That’s what people do when they have no argument.
rautakyy says “Some less morally twisted Christians have presented an opposite excuse to me….”
That won’t be me sir, I assure you. The God I know doesn’t need excuses and is not trying to get people to believe in Him. Your view or opinion is utterly irrelevant. (Mine is too btw.)
John Zande asks: “Greg, may I ask you a question: How old is the earth?”
She’ll be 6,467 this coming February. Wait til you see all those candles. LOL!
I don’t know. God created a full grown man. That same God, who commanded light and matter exist from nothing would have no problem creating a full grown universe as well. I do not believe in deep time. Which is what you’re really asking me.
anaivethinker intrigues me. You seem a pleasant chap and I thank you for your kind words. I’ll make a point of saying hi when I can.
My thing is epistemology. Arkenaten (friend of archaeopteryx1) has, I’m guessing, encountered somebody along the way who at least claimed to represent the particular school of Christian thought that he rightly says has been historically known as “presuppostionalism”. Which is a very unfortunate label, but stuck early on and there it is
The honchos at my church wanted a sample of my compositional thought a few years ago. This is what I sent them. 90% of what I will ever say here is already there somewhere. As I told Arkenaten.
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Whoops!! Forgot the link. Told ya I was in a hurry.
Click to access 2Brother_Greg_refromed_apologetic.pdf
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“Told ya I was in a hurry.” – So, you’re what? A bouncer in a biker bar? Not that there’s anything wrong with that —
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“the question becomes why God in his infinite mercy and love spares ANYbody” – because he wouldn’t have anyone to bully.
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“Even Arch didn’t say anything rude.” – What, “EVEN ARCH“?!!!
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I guess you’re usually mean? Maybe.
I haven’t seen it but hey you never know…Me I’m mean..
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I follow the old adage, “Sweets for the sweet –” as well as the converse of it. And enjoy both equally.
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Cool then I have nothing to fear. 🙂 Mostly cause i am sweet.
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Has anyone told you that you look like Michelle Trachtenberg? Interestingly, she’s exactly your age. Or possibly you’re using her photo for your avatar.
Read about your son, and I can say only two things: Sorry and Cool. I don’t want to post your business on a blog, so without explanation, I’ll trust that you’re smart enough to figure out what I mean, and which is which.
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She might look like me I should go see.
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Yeah – it’s she who looks like you – how could I ever have gotten the order so wrong –? My bad.
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Hehe she is Oct 85 I am Jun 84 I’m a year older.
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Yes, but for another month yet, you’re both 29.
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That’s not right, is it? My brain has had a few glitches today, partly because it’s 4 pm, and I still haven’t stopped for lunch.
OK – she’ll be 30 in October – 85 to15. But if yours is 84, doesn’t that make you 30 now, 31 in June? I was going on your own figure of 29. Am I confused, or am I right?
(Must – have – lunch – and – a – brain-break!)
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Exactly but I won’t argue if a man wants to intentionally do math wrong and keep me younger.
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Works for me. That settled, must eat now and do outside stuff – later, Dudette.
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Arch, I sometimes wonder if my blog has morphed into the place for you to needlessly insult Christians with cheap one-liners and flirt shamelessly with the ladies. But I am interested to hear that Michelle Trachenburg is 30! Now that makes me feel very old …
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LOL — you’re not old Violet. I’m old enough to be Michelle’s mother. Arch is old enough to be her grandfather. 😉
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Great grandfather surely. I shudder when he’s flirting when these young girls.
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You’re both wrong – I have a daughter younger than Michelle.
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LMAO — Arch, are you kidding me? That’s your excuse? 80+ year old men can still produce offspring, and yes, you are old enough to be her grandfather. Your share (a lot) your 1965 civil rights picture when you were a young adult.
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Neuro, you have been snidely sniping at me for the past two months – I’m sorry that your life isn’t going as you might like, but don’t take it out on me. My personal preference would be that you stop commenting to or about me.
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Good enough Arch. You stop the emotional manipulation and pervitude. My attitude towards you has nothing to do with my personal life, but rather you crossing boundaries, or did you forget that not long ago you said on a public forum that you wanted to see me naked. Not only was that utterly disrespectful, you said it on one of my posts which was discussing Christian abuse and suicide.
You have some nerve you perv.
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Frankly, I don’t recall saying that, because quite honestly I can’t imagine wanting to.
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Well you did, and your selective memory is no surprise. Your perviness is creepy, not funny.
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Say goodnight, Gracie —
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Goodnight, Dick.
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Actually, I guess I should be glad you’re finally showing your true colors.
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Arch, I am so disappointed in you. You lack integrity.
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And now it’s morphed into a place for you to be catty to my best blogging buddies. Arch, it’s clear you need to find your own blogging space for these unrelated activities. My intellectual and classy blog simply won’t stand for it. *Violet fizzes*
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Violet threatens: “And now it’s morphed into a place for you to be catty to my best blogging buddies. Arch, it’s clear you need to find your own blogging space for these unrelated activities. My intellectual and classy blog simply won’t stand for it. *Violet fizzes*
Arch, as weird as it might sound, I hope you don’t get yourself thrown outta here. You’re a smart guy. You can tighten it up. Some snark and joking is one thing, but she’s right. Your content-less juvenile tomfoolery takes up space on a page. You can be better. I mean that. (I actually really do)
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“Your content-less juvenile tomfoolery takes up space on a page. You can be better.” – You’re so right, T – far better I fill up pages hawking my belief in fairy tales.
(I do hope I wasn’t being too critical –)
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The only sniping I did at Christians on this blog, Vi, was the Christian who came on your blog shortly after BGR, of “Worst Post Ever” fame, made the veiled threat that you could expect visitors from his blog to pop over – in doing that, I was attempting to defend you, for which you later criticized me and apologized for my behavior to the blogger who was attacking you. I have seen the error of my ways, and will make no further effort to defend you.
Then I received an unprovoked attack last night from Neuronotes – one of your “best blogging buddies” – not based on religious or philosophical differences, rather a personal attack on my character, from which I defended myself, for which reaction you are again blaming me, but I’ve so far seen no criticism of her or her behavior.
I find your reasoning for both of these criticisms confusing. You seem to be saying, “On my blog, I will not tolerate:
1) you defending me
2) you defending yourself if your character is attacked by any of ‘my best blogging buddies’.”
If I’ve misstated my case in any way, please clarify the issue for me.
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Read the comments again then. You know I don’t need “defending” from any comments and that I welcome all points of view. Secondly, you weren’t defending yourself when I intervened, you were being unnecessarily rude to Victoria. I am, as ever, unbiased. 🙂
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Ok then so he doesn’t have to ask I joined Naked Jihad and published it a while ago.
Yup I am indeed naked there that’s out of the way Arch doesn’t need to ask. and neither do you now 🙂
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See he has a daughter younger than me. 🙂
Is she younger than my 16 year old son?
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No.
I don’t mean to seem terse, but I’m no longer sure of what I’m allowed to say.
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Well I posted my email on my about page feel free to comment in email. VI is right we should take some things off her blog. 🙂
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And your Spring Chicken days are far behind both of you, especially Neuro. (Since it would seem that cattiness is the order of the day)
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“Arch, I sometimes wonder if my blog has morphed into the place for you to needlessly insult Christians with cheap one-liners and flirt shamelessly with the ladies.” – You say that like it’s a bad thing —
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But one liners are about as much as they can understand. And secondly I am cute, I think…lol
Ok ok I don’t make 3k on a Saturday night shaking my ass because I am ugly so I must be at least cute. [girl power baby] 🙂
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Michelle, you’re clearly very attractive and have a sparkly strong character to go with it. Don’t waste what you have to offer flirting with old men online. Not that I’m ageist. 😉
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Violet says: “Michelle, you’re clearly very attractive and have a sparkly strong character to go with it. Don’t waste what you have to offer flirting with old men online. Not that I’m ageist. ;)”
Oh now I was waitin for this one. 😀 Didn’t take long either. What is this Violet? Here you are preaching the virtues of promiscuity, but make sure you keep it away from my page? For shame.
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What an odd interpretation!
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Considering Trib you see me as a “dumb stripper” as well as a heathen but I understood you. I’ll make it clearer for him.
/in the best stripper blonde bimbo valley chick voice i have/
Trib she was all like, hey guys whateva this is like my page and like you should stay on topic. I’d appreciate it if you could like not pollute my page with all this stuff over here. Kay?
/pops the gum/
Maybe he understood the message now?
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Michelle, I see you as a fellow child of our father Adam and my sister in him. A glorious creation of our God and bearer of His image and likeness. To me you are a lost young lady in need of my Jesus. What you do… or not… has no bearing on that.
The sin I have committed right in God’s face AFTER I knew better, should have bought me a one way ticket to the lake of fire, to say nothing of my life of death before Him. I am in no position to look down on anybody. I have feasted on His mercy. How could I have less for you?
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Thanks, I’ll pass on your god though I have my own heavenly father. But thanks for praying for me even to a false idol. The more important thing was did you understand what VI meant?
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Nah I have bluer eyes. 🙂
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Even in today’s picture I look like her?
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I hadn’t seen that (and now I’ll likely not forget it) – no, only in your avatar.
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Ahh so when I was being silly with the fan. 🙂
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If my comment was considered rude, it wasn’t intended to be. I will admit that I commented on impulse because I was stunned at his justifications which are all too familiar. I was merely pointing out that his god has the behavior of a psychopathic dictator, but because he’s supposedly the creator, then unethical behavior, causing untold pain and suffering, is justified and called holy and righteous. If a person can be loyal to a god with such anti-social behavior, he will most likely have the neurological makeup to be loyal to a psychopathic dictator. .
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“N℮üґ☼N☮☂℮ṧ says: “If my comment was considered rude, it wasn’t intended to be. I will admit that I commented on impulse because I was stunned at his justifications which are all too familiar. “
As I say, don’t worry about me bub. I honestly don’t mind at all.
I did mean to post my above long comment down there though. Sorry. In a hurry again.
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Tinbulus, I think the difference is —- I do mind. I care how people view humanity because studies show that the way you see others will affect the environment and ultimately the well being of our species
There is significant research showing that if you see humanity as depraved (unless they ask for forgiveness and submit to your god), you inevitably create an environment that leads to the very social ills your supposed god blames us for.
You expect that there won’t be any possibility of peace, for Jesus came not to bring peace but a sword.
You expect the world to get much worse before Jesus’ return, and you will blame it on us because we didn’t submit to and obey your god.
You believe Jesus will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty (Rev. 19).
You expect that when Jesus comes back with his army, ensuing a bloodbath, he will call the birds from the sky to come and eat the flesh of us unbelievers. Such expectations are a major part of the problem.
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I didn’t think your comment was rude at all, but you did make one separate personal comment (“Sadly, you are a dictator’s wet dream.”) that could be perceived as an attack on his character. I only mentioned it to point out to Brandon that his sweeping, petulant outburst of “pathetic” was based on only two of 20 comments, and that both people who could be accused of it had addressed Mr T’s points – not the suggested “no-one” but in fact “everyone” had made reasonable arguments. It’s funny what Brandon posts when he doesn’t take a deep breath – you get a real sense of how controlled his comments usually are.
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Yeah, as I explained already, it was written in haste, and it wasn’t an intent to attack his character but to make a point about being so loyal that they justify unethical behavior. What dictator wouldn’t get off on that kind of blind loyalty?
But isn’t it interesting that they assume we are wicked, unrighteous, of darkness, lawless (2 Corinthians 6), and they are not to be unequally yoked with us. Yet that assumption is never assumed to be an attack on our character.
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Oooh, now that you put it like that, I’m so offended! I expect a full apology for Brandon for suggesting there’s anything depraved about me, how rude!
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😉 It’s true. They think that about us whether they are consciously aware of it or not. Brandon is a Paul fan, therefore what he wrote is considered “truth”.
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Violet, in some ways what I said was an outburst. My term ‘character attack’ really meant deficiency. This is one of the first things I read:
Maybe you’re not outright saying anyone is irrational and self-delusional, but the implication is there.
Then, Zande and Mortem went down an engaging path (bravo) until Zande called Tiribulus a lunatic. Victoria’s “you are a dictator’s wet dream” came up, clearly an insult. Then, instead of engaging, Victoria takes a tangent concluding that the god God is “very mentally ill”. Then, Rat’s comment was not engaging and implicitly looking down on Tiribulus. Then, Rautakyy bashes a bunch of views that were not explicated by Tiribulus several times implying deficiencies in anyone who believes God is justified (i.e., “some less morally twisted Christians”).
That’s when I thought. . . this is pathetic. Mostly not charitable and insults and looking down. Would you think differently if you were me or Tiribulus? What about when you were insulted for holding a different view a few posts ago? Do you see any similarities to this situation?
It’s just disappointing to me, so it’s partly my own problem. If we get involved in polarizing topics, we should have a thick skin. At the same time, we are human. The human factor cannot be suppressed into an oblivion.
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Brandon, it’s not partly your problem. It is your problem. You reacted because you were trying to protect the reputation of yours and T’s monster god. Just as you believe, T writes:
And you’re disappointed?
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“He [God] also gets to do whatever He pleases with His own creation, including flooding it to death and ordering the extermination of the Canaanites and Amalakites. (and much MUCH more)”
I can’t help wondering, Neuro, if Tiribulus feels the same way about his own children, and if not, why not.
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Ya really gotta start payin attention man. My very first comment on THIS PAGE was as follows: (present special emphasis mine for archaeopteryx1, though the caps were already there)
“The day after the Newtown shooting where all those children were mercilessly gunned down, a known Christ hater asked at T-Nation if God is perfect in light of this event. The following is what I told him. I was reminded of this conversation by Pastor Chris’s SERMON yesterday:
===========================================
THE God, who in the beginning created the heavens and the earth, is Himself the standard by which ALL things are measured. That means when he commands Joshua to kill every man, women, child and beast in Canaan that that is PERFECTLY holy, righteous, just and good. It means that when he causes Israel to eat their own children as reported in Jeremiah 19 that that is PERFECTLY holy righteous, just and good. It means that if He has decreed all of the horrific human misery, suffering and death in all of history that that is PERFECTLY holy righteous, just and good. It means that if He has decreed the existence of billions of human beings for the expressed purpose of casting them into the lake of fire in judgement for sin that He also decreed that that is PERFECTLY holy, righteous, just and good. It means that if He has purposed that everything we consider to be pointless evil, immorally unjust and unthinkably unfair shall be so ordered by divine mechanisms known only to Himself, to His own glory for reasons sufficient unto Himself that that is PERFECTLY holy, righteous, just and good.
It also means that His not caring one bit how you (or I) feel about that is most assuredly PERFECTLY holy, righteous, just and good. I sleep like a baby knowing that every time I hear about some gut wrenching blood curdling act of barbaric depravity that my Father God has from eternity seen fit to assign purpose to it that is PERFECTLY holy, righteous, just and good. IF IT WERE MY OWN FAMILY? You ask? Most ESPECIALLY then would I fall to my knees and worship Him knowing that evil has NOT triumphed, but that a PERFECTLY holy, righteous, just, good AND LOVING God who calls me brother, bride and son though I myself belong in that lake of fire will receive honor and glory by my praising His name while the world loses it’s collective mind. EveryTHING and everyONE belongs to HIM. His exaltation and glory IS the purpose for all that is. No more PERFECTLY purpose could ever exist.
=============================================
OR…. He’s doin the best He can and things get away from Him sometimes. Actually most times. I tell you nay. The movement of every particle in this universe is governed by his invincible providence.”
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“Ya really gotta start payin attention man.” – I always do, to those who have something of value to say.
My question, was how you would feel about you killing any children you may have, as your god kills his.
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“The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open.” Hosea 13:16
“The LORD is slow to anger, abounding in love and forgiving sin and rebellion. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation.” Numbers 14:18
“Maybe you’re not outright saying anyone is irrational and self-delusional, but the implication is there.” Brandon
Brandon, I should be clearer, you and Greg are irrational and self-delusional if you want to argue that the god portrayed in the Bible is utterly benevolent, and that he isn’t characterised as having killing innocents.
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I use the word lunatic with careful consideration.
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I think of all that as describing what happened, and seeing it as God’s will because everything is.
Should the atheist choose her arguments? Either Joshua did not happen because the archaeology refutes it, or God is monstrous for ordering the destruction of every Canaanite. You can’t have it both ways.
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It didn’t happen of course,Claire. But certain fundamentalists like to teach it as truth and sometimes it is easier ( and more fun) to rag them about the monster they genuflect to rather than discuss the archaeology as they will not be able to understand this as it is proper science.
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Oh I should add; this god isn’t really monstrous as s/he/it is also fiction.
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“Either Joshua did not happen because the archaeology refutes it, or God is monstrous for ordering the destruction of every Canaanite. You can’t have it both ways.”
I’m not sure I understand your point here. I don’t really care to what extent the stories in the Bible are based on historical events. It doesn’t mean anything to my personal understanding of Christianity if these events occurred or are utter fiction. It’s the interpretation of them through a god-guided lens that Christianity accepts that I find totally illogical.
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“Joshua did not happen because the archaeology refutes it, or God is monstrous for ordering the destruction of every Canaanite.” – OR – Joshua did not happen because the archaeology refutes it, AND, the priests who created the monstrous god to keep the people in line, were themselves equally monstrous.
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Claire says: “Joshua did not happen because the archaeology refutes it, or God is monstrous for ordering the destruction of every Canaanite.”
To which archaeopteryx1 responds with:
– OR – Joshua did not happen because the archaeology refutes it, AND, the priests who created the monstrous god to keep the people in line, were themselves equally monstrous.”
– OR – Joshua did happen because the God without whom nothing could exist, including the laws of logic and false sinful methods of determining evidence, says it happened AND HE gets to decide what’s monstrous and you don’t. See, you have 3 pound brain (give or take). The God who sent Joshua to exterminate the Canaanites designed it. You can’t even mount your frivolous campaigns against Him without Him 😀 Like I said at Rebecca’s place. He rigged the game like that. He always wins and He always gets His way.
To Brandon. No offense, but I argue worldview against worldview on purpose. Individual points like “evidence” are wholly dependent upon the worldview from which they are spawned, both for their existence and coherence. Now, if I can ever get one of these sharp people, (but especially Arkenaten, because he’s the skeerdest so far), to engage on that level, I WILL, in Jesus name and to the glory of God the Father, by the power of the Holy Ghost demonstrate to you the inescapable certainty of the TRIUNE God of the ancient Christian scriptures. That’s not the same as saying you will agree. That is not possible unless this same God grants you repentance and new life in His Son, so that you have a new heart, able and joyously willing to worship Him in Spirit and in truth.
That’s right. You will not catch me arguing for the possible existence of just any ol theistic God in general. I do NOT assert that the existence and sovereign rule of my God is the most probable explanation for the reality we live in. I proclaim that the NONexistence of THIS God is an impossibility. I am dogmatic, unbending, intolerant and reject completely all opposing worldviews as lies of Satan.
How much easier can I make it for you folks?
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Ah, so Tiribulus has ventured out of his cage, I see? I hope he brought his own raw meat?
So, dear Violet, how would you fancy dear Greg here babysitting for you?
Don’t tell me there are no Dickheads.
He is Grade A Prime.
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I’m sure his picture is as fake as yours. I think you should both switch to flowers. Greg has clearly had an unhappy life – I’m sorry his understanding of human behaviour leads him to hold such grim views.
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What is the species of butterfly please. That is a smashing shot.
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Thanks but Raut beat you to the picture praise so your efforts are wasted. 😉 It’s an oldie from Argentina, our most common garden visitor species.
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And here he is boys and girls HAHA!! Arkenaten has arrived bringing his substanceless vituperation with him. Like I say this is what happens when even smart people have no argument. They jump and down, spit, snarl n foam while making abuncha noise. That’s why he’s so flipped out see?
Let’s talk about logic folks. Can we do that? I’m holding out hope that my new friend Arkenaten can participate, despite his heroic effort thus far to prove me wrong.
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Tiribulus, you perfectly described the authoritarian, alpha male god you worship. 😀
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N℮üґ☼N☮☂℮ṧ quotes me as saying: “They jump (up) and down, spit, snarl n foam while making abuncha noise.”
And then responds with:
Tiribulus, you perfectly described the authoritarian, alpha male god you worship.
Not bad man 😀 The trouble is it’s completely false. The one true and living God is of another order of ontological reality altogether from absolutely every other particle of existence there is.
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So T — are you saying you hear voices from your god? Or does your god visit you in visions? Did your alpha male war god speak directly to you so that you know his mind and thoughts? you know — best buds. Because that’s how you come across. Or are you solely basing all your godspeak on what’s written in the bible?
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Arkenaten quotes Rebecca: “it contradicts the law of physics that essentially says order does not come from disorder”
And then responds with the following bloviation :
– let’s chat about that for a moment.
I wear a gold ring on my finger – a gift. It took three Supernovae to create the gold that went into that ring. Any star that goes Supernova must be, by Chandrasekhar’s Limit, at least 1.5 times larger than Sol, our friendly neighborhood star.
The life of a star is characterized by thermonuclear fusion; hydrogen fuses to helium, helium to carbon, and so on, creating heavier and heavier elements. However, thermonuclear fusion cannot create elements heavier than iron. Only a supernova explosion can create copper, silver, gold, and the “trace elements” that are important for the processes of life.
Lighter elements like carbon, oxygen, and nitrogen are also essential to life, but without supernova explosions, they would remain forever locked up in stars. Being heavier than the hydrogen and helium that comprise most of the initial mass of the stars, they sink to form the central core of the star – just as most of the iron on Earth is locked up in its core. Life as we know it requires rocky planets to form, and there simply is no way to get enough rocky material out into the universe unless stars can deliver that material in wholesale quantities. And supernovae do just that.
In one sense, and one sense only, you are correct – entropy will ultimately win, and the universe will go out, not with a bang, but a whimper, just as T. S. Elliot predicted.
But between the Bang and the Whimper, there will be many more recyclings, just as 4.5 billion years from now, the earth and everything out to the orbit of Mars, will be enveloped by the growing Red Giant star that our own sun will become, then whatever remains of what was you and I, will evaporate, and our constituent atoms will possibly be recycled once again into a new star, with its own set of planets, and some other being may well one day fashion a gold amulet for one of its tentacles, which it may well wave while expounding on how it came to be that it and its kind were created in the image of their god.
HAHAHAHA!! 1+1=2 😀 Can we start there please? A real character this fella! He’s gowin on me 😉
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Uh – you wanta check that byline again, FuzzFace? Put the specs on —
NObody calls ME Ark and gets away with it! I used to be a bouncer in a biker bar too!
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Forgive me sir!!! I promise you it was an honest mistake. (it really was) You guys all look the same to me 😉
Off to the gym.
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Odly enough, I believe you, despite how racist your remark sounds: “You guys all look the same to me“
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Get him Arch. I’ll hold your coat.
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“Get him Arch. I’ll hold your coat.” – now THERE’S something you’re good at! You DO realize that the entire altercation arose because he called me, you —
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No-one’s arguing that Ark’s smart – why do Christians keep making that assumption because he’s got a nice gravatar? I agree with your analysis of his discussion style, and also your earlier comment about him being a chip off the old block. In another world, you’re twins.
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Not smart? Oh dear. Does this mean the engagement is off?
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Is that the bit that grabbed you? I thought you might be more concerned that you two are peas in a pod. 😀
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Oh … I knew that already. He is a Sith lord whereas I am a Jedi.
‘Arch’ actually means, Gateway. In his case it is a gateway to the Dark Side.
In fact it’s in the bible. Serious!
All you have to do is read every third verse of Esther and add er … um to the end of each sentence.
Afterwards, translate it into Klingon remove the constants Y R and the vowels U A and put them in front of the word plonker and it spells out Arch’s name. How cool is that?
Arch is the nemesis of the world.
And it was in the bible all along.
Who knew?
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Tee hee, that’s sweet. But I meant you and Mr T (Greg), not you and Arch (you’re not two peas in a pod, you’re an old married couple).
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LOL
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Yuck! The mere thought of that is disgusting. I want a divorce immediatement.
I get the kids and the dogs, he can have my copies of the bible and also my Koran.
Shudders … I need to shower. ‘Scuse moi.
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Not with ME you don’t! Not after last time! You deliberately knocked the soap out of my hand!
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Sadly, the Ark doesn’t have a pod to pea in —
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@Tiribulaus
Hey, Dickhead, got any verifiable evidence for your man-god, the biblical character Jesus of Nazareth yet?
No? Then you are piddling in the wind my old son. Best you go play with your rosary.
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Arkenaten says: “rosary”
See archaeopteryx1? This is the type of thing I meant when I said “I will join you in renouncing anything distinctly Roman Catholic.” The church that canonized the books of the bible is not the RCC even by the great schism. To say nothing of today.
Arkenaten belches: “Hey, Dickhead, got any verifiable evidence for your man-god, the biblical character Jesus of Nazareth yet?”
Of course. 🙂 The mathematical equation 1+1=2 is devastating proof positive of the triune Godhead of the Christian scriptures. Including the man born this God, Jesus of Nazareth and the whole concomitant glorious system of divine thought He entails. That terrifies you which is why you call names and fall back on the pseudo scholarship that you think has provided you with a hiding place from you creator, king and judge rather than answer a simple question that a six year old girl at my church gets correct.
No wonder you love Samantha Field so much. This blog is also populated by analytical lightweights who are comfortably accustomed to their intellectually incestuous ideological orgy and hence go into stammering auto-lobotomize mode if somebody shows up with an actual challenge.
Victoria says: “I am a specialist in BRAINWAVE TRAINING, a researcher and advocate for people with neurological disorders and traumatic brain injuries. I do not have a PhD.
I don’t know what that means, but it sounds cool. I’ll take a look when I get a chance.
As for your long comment BELOW?
I am more impressed with the nutrition label on a Cheerios box than I am with with all these pagan researchers whose life mission is to prove to themselves by proving to as many others as will listen, that they are not morally accountable to their maker. You people are utterly paralyzed with fear that I may actually make sense if you address my 1+1=2 question. Because… and still yet again:
As I told archaeopteryx1 at Rebecca’s blog:
====================================================
“… until we determine HOW and WHY we can and do know anything at all, any questions of WHAT we know are entirely meaningless. Unless we know where and what truth even CAN be, then how will we know when and if we are seeing it?”
You can crow until the pyramid of Cheops has returned to the dusts of Giza, but you will not, indeed CANnot, ever overcome this reality. Try as you might, and boy do you ever. The apostle talks about this in detail in the first chapter of his epistle to the church at Rome, beginning at verse 18….
You cannot even tell my why 1+1=2 without complete servile dependence upon a faith just as completely blind as you ascribe to us idiotic Christians. I dare you to prove otherwise.
====================================================
I did not see this comin and had much higher hopes, but you folks are wasting my time. Eventually I will be on my way rolling my eyes at another den of paper “atheists” (there really isn’t any such thing) who live like parasites feeding off of one another’s irrational unbelief. Every time you touch that keyboard you testify to the truth of biblical covenant Christianity. Indeed your very rational and sentient consciousness itself deafeningly proclaims that my God IS and you ARE guilty before His infallible tribunal.
It is HE who has cornered you like this. Not me. I’m just a fellow sinner headed for that lake of fire were it not for His wondrous loving saving grace. Will somebody please humor me and take a shot at demonstrating the coherent foundation of their own thought? None of you have ever thought about this have you?
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So this means you’re still a Dickhead and you don’t actually have any evidence? Why on earth didn’t you just say?
What a silly person.
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I may be a D**kh**d, but that doesn’t buy you the conventions of logic you stole from your creator to use against Him in the production of your so called “evidence”.
Your house is a sinful delusion without a foundation friend. Evidence, like a house doesn’t float around by itself. Both require foundations. It’s not that you don’t have one. It’s that you insolently refuse to recognize the one you have. Not having designed and created yourself you have no choice. It is THAT refusal which is the essence of death in sin and exactly what the serpent brought to our first parents.
I have to go to work.
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Yes, definitely a Dickhead. Now, Mr. T, what was your issue that made you turn to the Lawd?
Was it porn or some other sex-related issue like dear Naive thinker? Or maybe booze or drugs? Maybe you were an adulterer and got caught by your missus?
Come on T, Fess up.
We have oodles of empathy here….count on it.
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Now that’s a great question. 30 years in the Lord this past August. It’ll have to wait though. I really do have to go to work.
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I am sure we shall be glued to our seats … Meantime, this old post may inspire you.
https://attaleuntold.wordpress.com/2014/06/11/the-lighter-side-of-born-again/
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“what was your issue that made you turn to the Lawd?” – more likely, Ark, a jail-house conversion. In America, 97% of all prison inmates are theists, compared to 3% atheists. That should illustrate the degree to which the Buybull is a guidepost for morality.
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Theists go to hell archaeopteryx1. Only those who have been born again from the death of the first Adam (Genesis 3) into the eternal life of the last (1st Corinthians 15) are redeemed.
The devil doesn’t mind you believing in god. He doesn’t mind you goin to church. In fact it’s one of his greatest tools. He’ll pick you up himself and drive. As long as you do NOT trust the blood and resurrection of Jesus Christ as your righteousness before the flawlessly just and holy tribunal of the King and Judge of the universe.
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Yawn —
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“Not having designed and created yourself you have no choice.”
Who designed and created your deity? (Spoiler alert!) WE did!
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Apparently you haven’t given it much thought either, you don’t even clarify which base system you’re talking about.
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I already posted this , but you’d have to be paying attention when people talk in order to notice 😉 Not that it makes any different to answer a simple question about a math problem.
The honchos at my church wanted a sample of my compositional thought a few years ago. This is what I sent them. 90% of what I will ever say here is already there somewhere.
Click to access 2Brother_Greg_refromed_apologetic.pdf
Now I AM gong to work.
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“you’d have to be paying attention when people talk in order to notice” – Ah, but I pay very close attention when significant people talk.
“Now I AM gong to work.” – Well then, you’d better get gonging —
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Mr. T – I realize that you are gonging to work as I type this, but you’ll be back.
I just read your treatise – you really ARE batshit crazy, aren’t you?
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N℮üґ☼N☮☂℮ṧ “So T — are you saying you hear voices from your god? Or does your god visit you in visions? Did your alpha male war god speak directly to you so that you know his mind and thoughts? you know — best buds. Because that’s how you come across. Or are you solely basing all your godspeak on what’s written in the bible?”
Only the bible. Feel free to call me GREG.
If you want to. Anything else is fine too.
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OK, Greg. Well do. You can call me Victoria. Thanks for answering. I noticed you throw the word pagan around a lot. Have you seen this?
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N℮üґ☼N☮☂℮ṧ says: “OK, Greg. Well do. You can call me Victoria. Thanks for answering. I noticed you throw the word pagan around a lot. Have you seen this?”
We, aren’t you nice Victoria 🙂 (No sarcasm in case that may be suspected by anybody) I have not, but I will get to it a little later. I see a whole lotta assumption goin on here with the others, but no engagement of my question. I will need an efficient strategy for addressing that which will also have to come a little later.
Here’s a tip guys. I will join you in renouncing anything distinctly Roman Catholic.
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“Here’s a tip guys. I will join you in renouncing anything distinctly Roman Catholic.” – translation: Tiribulus will be renouncing any and everything ever uttered by the church established by the Roman Emperor Constantine, from 325 CE, to the present date. That would include the selection of which books of all the myriad of religious prophets out there, would be included in the New Testament – according to Tiribulus, right out the window! I look forward to it.
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Pseudo-Mark, pseudo-Matthew, pseudo-Luke, pseudo-John – all kicked to the curb! ‘Bout damn time! You GO, Mr. T!
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I said “Here’s a tip guys. I will join you in renouncing anything distinctly Roman Catholic.”
archaeopteryx1 responded with – translation: Tiribulus will be renouncing any and everything ever uttered by the church established by the Roman Emperor Constantine, from 325 CE, to the present date. That would include the selection of which books of all the myriad of religious prophets out there, would be included in the New Testament – according to Tiribulus, right out the window! I look forward to it.
– Translation. archaeopteryx1 is NEVER going to engage and will instead continue to treat us to irrelevant erroneous assumption as exemplified in the immediately above.
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“irrelevant erroneous assumption” – it is to laugh, ha, ha.
You said: “I will join you in renouncing anything distinctly Roman Catholic.” – as the Roman Catholic Church decided, in 325 CE, which books of the myriad ones floating around out there, would be included in, and which ones would be excluded from, the New Testament, by your very word, you must renounce every decision they made regarding their selection of literature. Many of us here will be more than happy to join you in that.
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archaeopteryx1 has no clue what I meant and it makes no difference at the moment. If I can ever get him to put his big boy pants on and tell me if he is CERTAIN that 1+1=2 and why or why not, I WILL make that clear.
All lighthearted snark aside? I must say, I’m becoming a bit disappointed. I really did expect more outta you folks over here. 😦
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“…tell me if he is CERTAIN that 1+1=2 – sure, as soon as you tell me the name of my second-grade girlfriend – each has equal significance. See, the thing I neglected to mention, was that I was also the bartender at that biker bar, and the first thing I learned, is never to buy into another man’s bar bet, and that’s exactly what you’re offering.
BTW, I’m going to bed, but feel free to talk among your multiple personalities, i.e., you and your god – or maybe the whole trinity, who knows?
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archaeopteryx1: “the name of my second-grade girlfriend … has equal significance.”
Poppycock. You said “Epistemology is the investigation of what distinguishes justified belief from opinion – I’d love to see how you work with that.”
It appears you were not speaking truthfully. You’re all bluster and no substance. Nevermind.
Maybe one of these other fine folks will put their money where their mouths are? I mean, this ain’t my blog and I didn’t start this. I was the one whose God was attacked in this post. I came over here in good faith to engage in some stimulating and edifying debate while I demonstrate that the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Peter, Paul, James and John is THE foundation of ALL being, including human thought, and this is what I get?. Well, the Europeans will be getting up soon so maybe one of them is more confident. 😦
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“You’re all bluster and no substance. Nevermind.” -Mike?!!
“while I demonstrate that the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Peter, Paul, James and John is THE foundation of ALL being, including human thought”
Knock yourself out —
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Why Victoria, are you a scientist? 🙂 I finally followed the link in your name to your blog. Am I gathering correctly that you are a neurologist or brain specialist of some sort? PHD?
Make no mistake. I respect the organized discipline required for such an endeavor, regardless of gender, but I will never have it.
Have I rightly surmised this?
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I am a specialist in brainwave training ( http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/10/121024124741.htm ), a researcher and advocate for people with neurological disorders and traumatic brain injuries. I do not have a PhD.
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Far be it from me to disagree with you (publicly) SweetCheeks, but your video is incorrect.
The Narrator tells us that Horus (representative of the sun) and his brother, Set, fought, and that for half the 24-hour day, Horus won, and for the rest, Set was the victor.
Set was in fact the evil brother of Osirus, the father of Horus, hence Set was Horus’ uncle. (as well as the model for Satan – Set Ten, meaning, “Lord Set” -“Ten” meaning “Lord,” as in Arkena-ten – didn’t know you were in the presence of royalty, did you? Who knew?).
Set and Osirus fought, Set killed Osirus and chopped his body into a thousand pieces. Osirus’ wife, Isis, managed to locate 999 of Osirus’ pieces, and put them all together – only one piece remained missing – much like John Bobbitt, it was his penis.
Isis used that penis, much like some women who brag about their appliances, and impregnated herself (with Horus) before returning it to its rightful owner. Osirus was reunited at last with all of his body parts, and was resurrected – sort of – he was only slightly alive, and only slightly dead, so while he once again had a degree of cognizance, because of the dead part, he was forced to remain forever in Hades, aka, the Underworld.
The fact that the story is slightly in error however, doesn’t BEGIN to justify the errors in the Buybull.
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“Far be it from me to disagree with you (publicly) SweetCheeks, but your video is incorrect.”
Arch, I emailed this video to you about 2 weeks ago and asked you to look over it for any errors since this is your area of expertise. I explained to you that I wanted it reviewed before I posted it on Nate’s blog. You wrote back and said it looked accurate to you. Now you write me this publicly. I can’t tell you how disappointed I am in you right now. 😦
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Sorry to disappoint you – it surely wasn’t the first time, and doubtless won’t be the last. I DO save the more informative of your emails, and I can’t find that one, anywhere – that’s the second email you maintain you sent, that I can’t locate, but in this instance, you indicate that I replied, so I have to assume I got it. You DID send me “What in God’s name are they doing to the children?” and I have it within easy reach, but I can find no sign of the other.
The only explanation that leaps to mind, is that I was busy at the time, and when I watched it, with my mind on other things, I heard Osirus, when in fact the Narrator spoke of his son, Horus, and for that, I’m truly sorry. Unless teasing, I would never publicly embarrass you. Possibly I should have emailed you my reservations, rather than publicly airing them on the board, but once again, I was under a time constraint, and took the easiest, fastest approach. Maybe I should just stay off these blogs until I get caught up with everything else, that would certainly make my work here go a lot faster – for example, my computer just informed me it’s ten o’clock, and that means I need to be outside, yet here I sit. At least that way, I could then lend my full concentration to what I’m saying in the future.
Again, I apologize for any embarrassment I may have caused you.
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Arch, thank you for the apology. I sent the email on Oct. 11 titled “Are you done with your running around? Have a quick favor”. I just got through rereading it and you did admit that you were 3 sheets to the wind. I will be sure to not ask your advise when you are chitfaced. 😉
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I’ve never been more than one sheet to the wind in my life! Well, OK, maybe a couple of times – three at the most – no, make that five. Definitely five. Or maybe six.
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“Are you done with your running around? Have a quick favor” – yes, I do recall that subject line – all I can say, is see rationalization, above —
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LOL
The next time you say you’ve bought a bottle of vodka and lime flavored Mountain Dew, I’m gonna keep the conversation ‘and’ questions light. 😀
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I DID let you down – didn’t realize it at the time, but I clearly see it now. I’d bet you’d give a second chance, even to a dog that peed on your carpet!
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It’s water under the bridge now.
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“It’s water under the bridge now. ” I don’t believe you, your comment was “wubbles”-less, and that speaks volumes!
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“your comment was “wubbles”-less, and that speaks volumes!”
Better?
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Well, Ok, I believe you now…
And once again, for the record, I AM sorry for the confusion.
Oh, and forewarning – I bought some more vodka last night. (Hey, it’s been three weeks!)
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LOL — I’ll keep that in mind.
Stay off your broom this weekend.
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FWIW, Victoria, I finished watching the video (again!), and the only place I can find, where it’s off, is in the confusion of Horus with his father, Osirus. Not trying to say it’s your fault – clearly it’s mine – but I have written on at least a couple of these blogs, the story of Osirus and Set – twin brothers, who married their own twin sisters (in an effort to demonstrate that “Lord Set” – or in Egyptian, “Set Ten,” was the origin for Satan). In many languages – Spanish, for example, where “la casa blanca” (the house white), actually means the white house (the adjective follows the noun), in English – so also, Set Ten means Set, the Lord, or Lord Set.
The only thing I screwed up on, was the confusion between Horus and Osirus, but then, so did the Narrator (or script-writer). The rest is as accurate as myths ever get.
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Thank you.
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I’m not sure about this Arch. I did a post ages ago, in which I was careful to avoid some of the more commonly spread ‘myths’ about these myths, but still when I was challenged found it difficult to track down any decent sources for things like the death, resurrection, or communion of Dionysus, or the resurrection of Osiris’.
When I was hastily ‘researching’ the post I came across a lot of nonsense. Sometimes in these anti-Christian pieces work the links become awfully tenuous. I don’t doubt a few of the parallels but they are so commonly exaggerated or twisted that it’s a bit of annoying discussion to get caught up in unless you’ve studied either original sources or an array of reputable secondary academic sources that reference the original sources.
I did like that video though and would love to see a serious analysis of it, because I know at least some of it is making tenuous links, but it would be useful to know how much is true.
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I’ll try to email you regarding this either this evening, of early tomorrow, A. C. (After Coffee)
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It’s been quite a while now, but I’ve been through all this Victoria. IF you were to actually study these topics in detail further than a totally unsourced youtube video, I promise. Even you would acknowledge the conceptual and linguistic “enthusiasm” employed to make this type of case appear vastly more persuasive than it actually is. By your own standards.
There are Christian scholars who have long ago buried these alleged connections to the mystery religions. I am not them.
My thing is biblical philosophy. Specifically epistemology, but also the closely related, but dependent study of metaphysics. The reasons are simple. Aside from being far too time consuming to keep up with, I see no precedent for arguing evidence in the bible. Not the way it’s usually done today, following Aquinas who followed Aristotle. (long story) The scriptures declare that it is not possible for there to exist any micron of knowledge that is NOT evidence of the God revealed therein. God is not hidden. He is to us as water to a fish. He can’t be avoided no matter how hard folks try and boy do they ever. The problem is the blindness of death in sin. Not the sufficiency of God’s self revelation.
All other disciplines depend upon epistemology for their existence and function, Which is why I say:
Most important of all I know God has called and equipped me for it. As I told Brandon above:
What worldview a person brings to their examination of evidence has determined the outcome before they start. That goes for me too. You see what that COMMENT above got me. A groovy “BANG HEAD HERE” graphic, but no actual response. I’m supposed to have the most brain dead, antique and anachronistic worldview of them all, but how many comments is this now? And no response.
I want you rational and enlightened people to tell me if you are CERTAIN that 1+1=2 and why or why not. Surely modern and religion free intellectuals, capable of all this elaborate erudition I see all over this page can handle a preschool arithmetic equation. Am I really expecting too much?
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Epistemology is the investigation of what distinguishes justified belief from opinion – I’d love to see how you work with that.
“I want you rational and enlightened people to tell me if you are CERTAIN that 1+1=2 and why or why not.” – that has more to do with the price of rusty razor blades in Russia, than it does with religion, or the validity of god, or his spirit-spawn, Yeshua.
But keep pushing it, it’ll keep you off the street at night.
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archaeopteryx1: “Epistemology is the investigation of what distinguishes justified belief from opinion ….”
Not exactly, but close enough for my purposes.
archaeopteryx1: “– I’d love to see how you work with that”
YOU WOULD?!?!?!?! Excellent. When do we start?
tarchaeopteryx1: “that has more to do with the price of rusty razor blades in Russia, than it does with religion, or the validity of god, or his spirit-spawn, Yeshua.”
OUTRAGEOUS!!! Razor blades are stainless steel and do not rust. Sheesh. No wonder you’re afraid to talk about anything substantive. 😉
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Greg, the problem with Christianity are numerous. Here are a few:
1) Hyper-religiosity is a major feature of mania, obsessive-compulsive disorder, schizophrenia, temporal-lobe epilepsy and related disorders.
2) The Bible god you worship and several of its main characters that promote your biblical god have the symptoms of a neurological disorder.
Hyper-religiosity (an obsession with religion and feelings of religious certainity) and hypergraphia (extensive writing on a subject, usually about religion) are common symptoms.
As many as 60% of those with schizophrenia have religious grandiose delusions consisting of believing they are an important person, such as being chosen by a god God.
Source: http://neuro.psychiatryonline.org/article.aspx?articleid=1476850
One of the patients noted in the source believed he was selected by the god God to provide guidance for mankind. People with certain neurological disorders will have a sudden religious conversion. Up to 10,000 people in America (every year) who’ve been diagnosed with this disorder, will have religious auras. Because of the behavioral, and cognitive symptoms, they are frequently misdiagnosed according to the Journal of the Association of Medicine and Psychiatry. I’ll repeat that: up to 10,000 a year in America alone, every year. You do the math. That’s just one neurological disorder with hyper-religiosity is a major feature.
My question to you, Greg, is how do you discern when such neurological disorders are very common, have been throughout history, and there are so many people on this planet (and in the past) evangelizing and writing with religious certanity?
The problem I have is that you appear to be so in love with your cultural god God that you justify the very behaviors committed by your god God. Behaviors which your god God calls sin. As a parent, you don’t teach your children how to be prosocial and then not lead by example. The main reason I left Christianity was because Yahweh, Jesus’ daddy, has the behavior of a dictator. I could not, in good conscious, worship such a deity. You see such antisocial behavior as holy, righteous, and justified, and I see red flags.
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Ah, Zeitgeist! The most poorly researched movie ever!
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So I’m discovering. Had it been sources I would have gotten a red flag. This is not my area of expertise, but I did pass it on to one who I thought was an expert in this area, and was given the green light. My bad.
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correction: *sourced
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“I did pass it on to one who I thought was an expert in this area, and was given the green light. My bad.” – no, mine.
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Violetwisp asks: “No-one’s arguing that Ark’s smart – why do Christians keep making that assumption.. “
Tiribulus PRINCIPLES of online debate #5
5. NEVER glibly underestimate your opponent. ALWAYS assume your opponent is 10 times smarter, 10 times more qualified and 10 times more informed than you are. He DOES NOT have to be stupid to be wrong. In fact, the more intelligent he is, the more potential for truly spectacular error.
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@’T’
Amazing ! You must have left close on 50 comments dotted over a couple of blogs and said absolutely frak-all of any substance or anything vaguely intelligible. And you try so hard
Don’t you christian fundies know how to communicate in simple plain language?
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Gym time. Ya’ll’ll havta carry on without me.
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Hey Violet, check out Tiribulus, a.k.a., Greg. He’s a young whippersnapper who seeks to entertain his YT audience — singing and dancing in the name of Jesus. 😀
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Seriously?? I did wonder about that gravatar …
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Nah, just a little comic relief based on a blog post he wrote. The guy in the first video is a huge fan of Babbie Mason, an black American gospel singer. 😉
Here’s a quote from Tiribulus post:
😀 You can see the bearded Mr. T right here in the yellow/orange t-shirt at minute marker 2:37.
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Shudder!
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Ya know Victoria, I appreciate that you at least got the immediate context.
Yes. an absolutely true statement. Egalitarianism isn’t the only full frontal attack on Christ’s Church though. Not even the worst, horrible though it is. You may be surprised to learn that folks like you all here on this blog are seen by me as practically no real threat at all. No sarcasm there.
One million Christopher Hitchens or Richard Dawkins OR a million of each, are not nearly as poisonous as one single Rachael Held Evans or Tony Jones.
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It is true. We are no real threat. Hyper-religious people and those with a brain signature (limbic lability) who are susceptible to mind-control are a threat to the well being of humanity, primarily because they experience death anxiety, have increased gray matter volume in the right amygdala (fear, disgust, aggression), are reward driven and will justify antisocial behavior in the name of their god.
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Are you certain of this Victoria?
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Is that a rhetorical question?
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No Maam. An honest sincere question. Could be anything actually. Are you “certain” of ANYthing? It’s not a trick question . I say you are. What do you say?
Work time. I am a computer tech. Also the IT guy for my church and also run the giant screen at the front of the sanctuary. I linked a gallery of pictures in case you’re interested.
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I see no link to your pictures. Greg, the issue I have with you is that I could share hundreds of studies with you, which many also include fMRI scans — research that took me over 10 years to read, cross reference and digest, and you would come back and state that I’m being deceived by Satan, or I’m reading scientific research intended to deceive your people. See, you believe that Satan, as a roaring lion, walks about seeking whom he may devour.
You are not here to have discourse. You are here to tell us we are lost sinners headed to the hell your mythological man-god created. You’re a fundamentalist, the cesspool of Christianity. That’s not to say that all fundamentalists have a negative impact on the well being of humanity. But most, I believe, have an abnormal need to be acknowledged, focused on the anticipation of reward at the cost of others; tend to have increased gray matter volume in their right amygdala (fear of people different from them); an atrophied hippocampus (if they consider themselves “born again”); greater than average death anxiety, deactivated neural circuitry to areas of the brain associated with critical social assessment, and dopamine addiction in which the ventromedial dopaminergic systems are highly activated.
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http://tiribulus.net/smf/index.php?action=media;sa=album;in=1
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Download his PDF, Neuro, and gaze into the abyss that is his mind.
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I read it yesterday when he first posted it. I also read several of his bog posts, so I have a good idea of his mindset. I look forward to reading the details of his conversion story when he shares it with Ark.
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“Egalitarianism isn’t the only full frontal attack on Christ’s Church though.” – so you’re saying that Thomas Jefferson’s credo, upon which this country was founded – that all men are created equal – is a Satanic frontal assault on the belief system of your god. And yet you have the gall to accuse us of being incapable of carrying on a philosophical discussion – clearly you don’t know the meaning of the phrase.
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@archaeopteryx1: I am speaking of the brand new view, of the last 30 or so years, but unheard of in the whole of church history before this, that denies the New Testament teaching of equal but different functions for males and females among God’s people. No, I will not defend that here and it has NOTHING to do with civil egalitarianism. I apologize for not being clearer.
N℮üґ☼N☮☂℮ṧ says: “I read [Greg’s PDF] yesterday when he first posted it. I also read several of his blog posts, so I have a good idea of his mindset.”
And what do you think of my mindset Victoria?
N℮üґ☼N☮☂℮ṧ says: “I look forward to reading the details of his conversion story when he shares it with Ark.”
This is going to take me some time. It has been suggested a few times that I record my testimony (everybody should actually) and this will give me a golden opportunity and motivation.
The short version is I was raised from death in sin to new life in Christ in August of 1984 when I was 20 years old, in an apartment on the west side of Phoenix.
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“that denies the New Testament teaching of equal but different functions for males and females among God’s people.”
It is unethical to guilt people into gender roles based on an Iron/Bronze Age culture. I was widowed when my daughter was 11 days old. I wore all the hats, took on all the roles throughout her childhood. I experienced much loneliness. Why? Because I was a brainwashed Christian. I was instructed by scriptures and told by church honchos (as you call them) that I could not remarry unless the man was a widower, had never been married or got a divorce because the spouse committed adultery, or became an unbeliever. You see, god hates divorce.
My daughter never had the opportunity to have a father because of these archaic rules, and I was a fool to follow them. But I had been traumatized by my partner’s death (which was indirectly caused by fundamentalists), was vulnerable to fundamentalists who pretended to care, but whose real intent was to proselytize to increase the church purse, and score points in heaven.
According to the N.T., your god’s followers are to only give proper recognition to those widows who are “really” be in need. Having a child to take care of, is, according your belief system, not a “real” need. No widow may be put on the list of widows unless she is over sixty according to your beloved book..
1 Timothy 5:11 – 13
Can these teaching be any more assuming, condescending, uncaring and judgemental?
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That you’re a typical brainwashed fundamentalist who became a “born again” Christian because of circumstances e.g., physical and/or emotional trauma; subjected to mind-control techniques that get you in a suggestive brainwave state — highly effective techniques used by evangelists for over 200 years; a brain injury in the sweet spot (possibly undiagnosed); a mental disorder (possibly undiagnosed); or alcohol and/or drug abuse, and/or perhaps incarceration. Any of these ring a bell?
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1st Corinthians 1: (NASB, emphasis as per the translation committee.)
18-For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
19-For it is written,
“I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE,
AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE.”
20-Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21-For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22-For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; 23-but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, 24-but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25-Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26-For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble; 27-but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, 28-and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are, 29-so that no man may boast before God. 30-But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, 31-so that, just as it is written, “LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD.”
The more groovy and authoritative and popular something (or someone) is in the world, the more foolish it is to God. Any of that ring a bell?
I ask again Victoria. Another way. Are you CERTAIN of any of the things you learn from your studies? Anything? If so, please tell me why? If not then shaddup 😉 Who cares about one person”s subjective uncertainties?
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You just proved my point.
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Still no answer 😦
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There’s nothing to answer. You see, Greg, you are the one claiming absolute certainty. If there is a god, and it’s your god — hell would be my destination of choice. I won’t lower my ethical standards to save my ass.
Good night.
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“Who cares about one person”s subjective uncertainties?” – I suspect that’s how most of us feel about yours.
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” I suspect that’s how most of us feel about yours.”
Say the guy who refuses talk to me about 1+1 equaling 2
I’m trying. You guys are the ones running away.
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“the New Testament teaching of equal but different functions for males and females among God’s people.” – I thought we did away with “separate, but equal” in the ’50’s.
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“You can see the bearded Mr. T right here in the yellow/orange t-shirt at minute marker 2:37.” – is there a link with that? Because I’m not seeing one.
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Look at the video below.
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Oh, I see – the video followed the comment – sorry! (I seem to be saying that a lot to you –)
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I had intended to post the video in the same comment but hit “post comment” before I realized I had not included the link. I
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Much like this one I gather: “…but hit ‘post comment’ before I realized I had not included the link. I“
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LOL — I delete another sentence, but “I” was missed.
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archaeopteryx1: “William G. Dever “
Nevermind. People claim all kinds of things. It is now clear that you are simply incapable of an actually meaningful philosophical discussion.
Yes Victoria. I am in that video. 🙂 That is my Detroit CHURCH Just about everybody in it are my Facebook friends and my beloved family in the Lord. They are about 95% black while I was born pale white, blonde and blue. We are brethren in both Adams. Gives ya the willies doesn’t it? EEEEEW! Seeing a hideous place like that in the middle of a post war wasteland like Detroit.
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“People claim all kinds of things.” – Yup, the Bible is proof positive of that!
“It is now clear that you are simply incapable of an actually meaningful philosophical discussion.” – Translation: it is now clear that arch is not going to be suckered into playing another man’s bar game.
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“Gives ya the willies doesn’t it? EEEEEW! Seeing a hideous place like that in the middle of a post war wasteland like Detroit.”
No, it doesn’t give me the willies, but I understand why a place like that is in the middle of a post war wasteland like Detroit. Fundamentalism tends to thrive in environments of duress and dysfunction.
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If anyone REALLY wants to appreciate the photo of Vi’s butterfly, click on it, and it will fill the screen!
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Victoria says: “There’s nothing to answer. You see, Greg, you are the one claiming absolute certainty. If there is a god, and it’s your god — hell would be my destination of choice. I won’t lower my ethical standards to save my ass.
Good night.”
I am indeed claiming God’s absolute certainty. The free exercise of which He gifts to His children by faith. The same absolute certainly you are enslaved to every second of your existence, but refuse to acknowledge.
We both live in the same certainty Victoria. Our God designed us that way. I do it by choice. You do it by force.
As a sinner under the dominion of death and Satan (no that is not a contradiction of God’s sovereignty) you prefer Hell itself to surrender to your master. You prefer a life of imagined irrational ultimate uncertainty over the peace and joy that comes from intentionally living in the certainty of the only being actually capable of it.
You’re right on schedule. This is what I’m told to expect. God is always right.
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I never experienced true peace until I left Christianity, after putting myself through years of deprogramming — synaptic pruning. As part of my frontal lobes came back online I was stunned at how duped I’d been by your belief system. It was a very difficult period of my life. Deconversion is not for the faint of heart.
Also, once you get through it you have to put up with people like you who can’t keep their beliefs to themselves. They need the placebo effect to remain effective, so they spread their dysfunction across the globe and prey upon vulnerable people.
I’ll wager that the only reason you got saved was due to one or more scenarios I shared with you. You are now jacked-up on dopamine. You feel acknowledged by what you perceive as being the king of the jungle and it gets you high as a kite. You play the bad ass for Jesus but you are really quite transparent.
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No wonder you’re afraid to answer me Victoria. You DO have a LOT to lose don’t you. You may have online lobes, but you ARE an offline soul. Don’t forget. The curiously lately MIA Violet asked my permission to cite me and invited me over here. This whole discussion was her idea.
I have no idea what happened to you and as the Lord lives, I have no desire to cause you pain. I will not however be dissuaded from proclaiming the truth as it in Christ.
There is no such thing as “deconversion” from life in Christ my dear lady. The gospel is not a package of propositions the acquiescence to which makes one a Christian. It is a supernatural individual resurrection of a soul dead in sin to the true and eternal life of God Himself.
Whatever you were “deconverted” from, it was not that. Do what you want. Believe what you want, but you are living a lie. A sort of spiritual epoxy if you will. The false religion you believed before being like the resin and this present desperate belief system being like the hardener. The two together comprising a rather masterful deception which is yielding Satan’s desired result.
If you could see my face and hear my voice you would know that I do not say that in sneering scorn to be hurtful. Not in the least. My heart breaks for you actually 😦 (if you read that as sarcasm you are gravely mistaken)
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Sorry for being mysteriously missing in action. To be honest, I can’t make much sense of what you say.
I am interested in this denial of deconversion though. Why do you think we must all have had some kind of false faith? We’re telling you it’s all in the mind, because we’ve been there, believed it with all our hearts, and are delighted to have struggled out of grasps of religion. I used to think the same as you about people who deconverted – they couldn’t possibly have believe properly, like I do!
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Well hello Violet. Nice of you to pop in to your own blog.
You ask: “Why do you think we must all have had some kind of false faith?”
Because that’s what the bible says. All those given to the Son by the Father WILL come. And of those He will lose none, but raise them up on the last day (John 6)
They are HIS. They belong to Him. He bought them with with His blood and they CANNOT be lost. (this is of course a massively abbreviated treatment). There is no such thing as a former Christian. There are vaaaast multitudes who think they are, but that’s to be expected too.
Violet says: “We’re telling you it’s all in the mind, because we’ve been there believed it with all our hearts, “
I believe you believe you believed. In fact, maybe you even did, but it is simply not possible that you believed what I believe. I know that because what I believe is denied to all who have not been made partakers of the divine nature (2nd Peter 1:4) and been given the mind of Christ (1st Corinthians 2:16). See here’s the trouble. The modern western church has fallen hard into a brand of humanism wherein God is trying to get people to believe in a hand wringing Christ who is somehow being done a favor if people do. No. HE is doing YOU the favor by ALLOWING you to believe IF He does. That is HIS work. It is perfect and infallible. So called “Deconverted” Christians are lying to themselves and everybody who hears them. With every keystroke you inescapably proclaim the truth of His word. Even with your lies. Like I say. He always wins.
Violet says: ‘I used to think the same as you about people who deconverted – they couldn’t possibly have believe properly, like I do!”
I know, but YOU never “believed properly” yourself. So your joining the ranks of those who also didn’t “believe properly” is not a mystery. True faith and belief are the RESULT of true conversion. They do not cause it. It is the gift of God to all those He sees fit to give it to. He will NEVER turn away a truly seeking heart because that very seeking is itself already His own gift to them. Dead is dead. (Ephesians 2) Dead men do nothing until raised. Water will sooner flow uphill than a dead sinful heart seek the true and living God apart from His gracious and irresistible call.
In short. He is God and we are not.
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Aw, it’s kind of sweet when you put it like that. Softens the heart that not only do the vast majority of human beings never get to hear about all this so go straight to eternal torment, but you believe lots of Christians aren’t ‘proper’ Christians because they don’t believe like you do (including I assume from previous comments billions of Roman Catholics) and they will also suffer some kind of eternal torment for not believing in the right way. It’s great, you just couldn’t make up all the crazy beliefs out there! Nice to know that so beloved was the world and all that, yet you’re happy to believe such a rancid pool of nasty thoughts for your fellow human beings. 😀
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“yet you’re happy to believe such a rancid pool of nasty thoughts for your fellow human beings.” – but look what a superior (in his own mind) position that places him in.
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“In short. He is God and we are not.” – and much like Mary Shelly’s Frankensteinian monster, we created him, in our own image.
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No, I didn’t read any of that as sarcasm, but I would seriously recommend you get a thorough neurological evaluation as soon as possible. We now have studies showing that people who considered themselves born again, have atrophied hippocampus. Ask for a brain scan of your hippocampus. I’m dead serious, Greg. You are playing with fire at your age.
In one such study they evaluated the MRIs of 268 men and women aged 58 and over, who were originally recruited for the NeuroCognitive Outcomes of Depression in the Elderly study, but who also answered several questions regarding their religious beliefs and affiliation.
This study also broke down these individuals into those who are born again or who have had life-changing religious experiences.
The results showed significantly greater hippocampal atrophy in individuals reporting a life-changing religious experience. In addition, they found significantly greater hippocampal atrophy among born-again Protestants and Catholics compared with Protestants who did not identify as born-again.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0017006
Your beliefs are shrinking your brain and this could lead to some very serious mental health issues in the very near future. WTFU and see a specialist.
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Yeah, SEA KELP!
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“It is a supernatural individual resurrection of a soul dead in sin to the true and eternal life of God Himself.”
Except for the fact that there is no such thing as the “supernatural,” “soul,” “sin,” “eternal life,” or “god,” I’d say that’s a reasonably accurate statement.
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Victoria says: “No, I didn’t read any of that as sarcasm, but I would seriously recommend you get a thorough neurological evaluation as soon as possible. We now have studies showing that people who considered themselves born again, have atrophied hippocampus. Ask for a brain scan of your hippocampus. I’m dead serious, Greg. You are playing with fire at your age.
In one such study they evaluated the MRIs of 268 men and women aged 58 and over, who were originally recruited for the NeuroCognitive Outcomes of Depression in the Elderly study, but who also answered several questions regarding their religious beliefs and affiliation.
This study also broke down these individuals into those who are born again or who have had life-changing religious experiences.
The results showed significantly greater hippocampal atrophy in individuals reporting a life-changing religious experience. In addition, they found significantly greater hippocampal atrophy among born-again Protestants and Catholics compared with Protestants who did not identify as born-again.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0017006
Your beliefs are shrinking your brain and this could lead to some very serious mental health issues in the very near future. WTFU and see a specialist.”
IS THAT SO?!?!?! 😀 I can’t even get any of you brainiacs to discuss 1+1 equaling 2 with me. You’ll need to forgive my lack of alarm as it appears the Lord has declared my hippocampus expendable. I am entirely unimpressed by your specimen pool. Dr. Jesus has declared me and all His brethren to be whole in Himself. Thank you so much for your concern. (ok, there a HINT of sarcasm in that one 😉 )
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You talk a lot about ‘deconverts’.
What’s your view on people who believe in other religions and people who have never believed in any?
Where do they fit in your world view? What status do we deserve? Potential converts or idiots who can’t add up?
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It’s your brain Greg. You should be concerned, and the fact that you aren’t is a clear indication that you are not in your right mind.
Also, you don’t seem to understand that 1 = 1 equaling 2 does not mean that you are right about your god of choice, who is a narcissistic dictator with psychopathic behavior.. You show your lack of critical thinking and empathy when you defend this type of god.
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Correction: I meant to write 1 + 1 equaling 2
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Victoria says: “Also, you don’t seem to understand that 1 +1 equaling 2 does not mean that you are right about your god of choice,”
You don’t seem to understand that your assumptions about what my arguments will be are wholly deficient because you haven’t heard them yet. Also, I didn’t choose God. He chose me. For reasons I will not likely ever be given, but which do NOT include my being better than anyone else.
Victoria says: “You show your lack of critical thinking and empathy when you defend this type of god.”
Madam I haven’t had the opportunity to show critical thinking because not one of you people will answer a simple question. How am I to believe that your brain is somehow better off than mine when this is the case.
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You have once again proven that you serve a monster. Garbage in, garbage out.
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“I can’t even get any of you brainiacs to discuss 1+1 equaling 2 with me. – that’s entirely untrue! I’ve already told you in a comment that 1 + 1 = 10, in a base 2 system.
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Jist keep runnin Skippy 😉
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“Jist keep runnin Skippy 😉” – OR, you could go buff your head!
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Pest. I was going to mention Base 2, it seemed the next obvious logical progression. I shall go for a nap having been out arched.
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I have work guys. Later
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Pingback: VIOLETWISP…
Would any readers you might have be able to make sense of the strange linking mechanism without comment? Your blog is very confusing to navigate around as it is.
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I didn’t ping back on purpose. 😦
I don’t know what happened. I have plenty to learn about WordPress. My blog is really just an editor for my comments on other people’s ‘s blogs. I do pretty much nothing to try to get readership. I link there some times to save typing.
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