christians face the genocidal tendencies of their loving god God part 2
I really don’t expect you to understand. You want to elevate yourself to God’s perspective. We are His creation, not His equal. If you were a potter and you shattered a pot you made, would you be an evil murderer? cateritforward
Isn’t it odd that in the midst of explaining how loving and wonderful their invisible god is, some Christians will tell you that they expect that their benevolent creator has every right to treat them as malevolently as it pleases? I’ve come across this on a number occasions, and it concerns me on a number of levels:
- Do they think it reasonable to compare sentient beings with inanimate objects?
- If they think the stronger, more intelligent being can do what it wants without reproach, how do they treat children or animals? Seriously, what kind of attitude is revealed in a comment like this?
- Placing these concerns to the side, if I were a potter and made a pot, but it didn’t turn out as I wished, would it say anything good about me if I smashed it in a fit of weird jealousy/rage/regret?
However, moving on, some more confusing input:
You sound as if he is bad to cast judgment, yet you want to judge Him. If He is not permitted to judge the righteous and the wicked, what makes you think you can judge the character of God?
Most Christians will spend hours telling you that without the influence of the benevolent creator god God, human beings would have no morals. Yet when anyone challenges the ethical standards of the god God as portrayed in the Bible, suddenly our personal sense of ‘morality’ becomes utterly meaningless. Who are we to judge this superior being and its actions?
Now, I don’t know about anyone else, but alarm bells ring all over my head when I speak to Christians like this. It’s one thing being a Christian along the lines of the egalitarian, non-materialistic, pacifist and generally loving* man-god Jesus Christ, as portrayed in the Bible. But it’s quite another thing that the model supporting the jealous and angry genocidal god God from the part of the Bible that treated all women like property, encouraged slavery and demanded stoning for ‘bad’ behaviour, seems to be gaining ground in some parts of the world.
Keep your eyes peeled people, Christianity has the potential to go wronger than it already is …
*Jesus killed a fig tree and also got violent in a temple, so he had his OT moments too
The claim made here that God is genocidal proves that atheists cannot understand the meaning of the Bible.
It also proves that atheists are incapable of understanding morality.
In the Bible, God made is reasons crystal clear whenever he took action.
Additionally, if God committed genocide so did the United States when it bombed Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan back to the Stone Age during World War II.
Of course such claims are absurd because eradicating evil is right and just.
LikeLike
I must have missed the part in the bible where your Middle Eastern god made “his reason crystal clear” when he murderedAnanias and his wife Sapphira… Or was it the Apostles who murdered them? It’s quite cryptic as to who, precisely, was the murderer.
LikeLike
HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Are you seriously attempting a seriously discussion with Mr. Catholic Come Lately? 😀
LikeLiked by 1 person
Serious, no, never… Entertaining? Perhaps 😉
LikeLike
And we have to be realistic. VW may be going through an atheistic-ly religious phase, but her mindset and rationale are still primordially unscientific and unmathematical. Great repetition of superficial theories, but very little real substance.
LikeLike
Oh I don’t think so. I rather like these posts that open windows onto the demented world of Christians. She is, undoubtedly, the best lurker I know.
LikeLike
Lurker, yes. Logic professor, not so much.
LikeLike
Thanks Pink, you know how much I appreciate your input. 😉
LikeLike
Pinky,
Has it ever occurred to you that you are guilty of the very thing you accuse others of?
How is you ridiculing someone an example of you having a serious discussion?
Filthy rich elitists like you apply the rules to everyone but yourselves.
That’s why filthy rich 1 percenters like you are so well loved around the world.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Thanks SOM, you know how much I appreciate your input. So if genocide is committed, but reasons are given, then it’s moral?
LikeLike
Wisp,
Genocide is immoral.
The eradication of evil is right and just.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Spiritually blind people are unable to comprehend the Bible. They think the OT is all orneriness, but they fail to see the reality of Christ.
LikeLike
Does that not make it kind of difficult to use as a conversion tool? You have to blindly believe before you can understand it? That wouldn’t really make sense. Surely everyone would have to understand it – kind of seems like an insult to an omniscient deity otherwise.
LikeLike
Wisp,
I wasn’t converted by the Bible.
I was converted by other Christians.
As a child, the Bible sparked my interest but it was being educated by other Christians that allowed me to reason my way to conversion.
LikeLike
I was converted when I was about 34. The Bible was most certainly helpful and guidance from Christian friends helped, but I would say my wife’s prayers are what made the biggest difference.
LikeLike
That’s a very interesting point, but it certainly isn’t blind faith. Our job is to share the Gospel. We do not possess the power to convert people. Only the Holy Spirit can do that.
I’ve been studying the Bible quite intently, and faith in God is not unreasonable. Given the knowledge we have today and the presuppositions required to adhere to Darwinian evolution, I have to say that evolution is completely unreasonable.
LikeLike
Did you type this during a free period in the joint, SOM?
LikeLike
If they think the stronger, more intelligent being can do what it wants without reproach, how do they treat children or animals? Seriously, what kind of attitude is revealed in a comment like this?
This is a good point, and a valid concern, especially regarding their treatment of animals.
LikeLike
“This is a good point, and a valid concern, especially regarding their treatment of animals.”
And children, i.e., Isaac.
LikeLike
Well, children stand to reason, but not enough people think about animals.
LikeLike
John, I read a paper about the history of child abuse, and found it interesting that animal rights laws were established before human rights laws for children. Also, in America, it’s illegal to threaten and hit a 250 lb (213.3 kg) man, (that’s called assault and battery ) but totally legal to threaten and hit a child. That’s call discipline.
LikeLike
Correction: I meant to write 113.3 kg.
LikeLike
Don’t get me wrong, I meant children are (well, at least should be) a given for our concern, whereas animals often aren’t. They are an afterthought.
LikeLike
John,
Yes, in thinking about the animals, I always wondered how Noah was able to walk those little penguins all the way from Tierra Del Fuego back to the Middle East in time for the flood.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Not to mention the kangaroos and Kiwis
LikeLike
Probably irrelevant but I ponder the source of the “Spare the rod and spoil the child” saying … which seems beautifully ambiguous anyway.
LikeLike
Reasonable; but you’re always on the very surface. These things are obvious. I think you’d do yourself tremendous good by going a step further. Don’t take what anyone says at face value, instead investigate the possible motivation(s) for the answer(s).
Better yet, translate what they say into ‘real language’. The second quote you use is nearly comedy-yet you analyze it without considering why you got that answer in the first place. Do you think they believe what they say? Do you think they’re trying to manipulate you? Do you think these are lines they’ve learnt to parrot?
LikeLike
I’ll consider these frightfully penetrating questions. I go as deep as I dare. But not hanging round the intellectually stimulating circles of superior beings such as you on a daily basis does limit me little brain.
LikeLike
It’s nothing to do with superiority. What I’m referring to is being able to analyze and process information in the most efficient way. That’s a learnt process. All anyone has to do is study it.
LikeLike
Again, your esteemed input is much appreciated. 😀
LikeLike
“Isn’t it odd that in the midst of explaining how loving and wonderful their invisible god is, some Christians will tell you that they expect that their benevolent creator has every right to treat them as malevolently as it pleases?”
Nature Violet, has the right to treat you as malevolently as she pleases. Genetics have the right to treat you as malevolently as they wish. People, although we don’t refer to it as a right, will frequently treat you malevolently. This is the reality of the life we lead and in the end, we will sicken and die in one final malevolent act.
You cannot indefinitely avoid the harsh malevolence of our own existence. It is what it is. God provides us with hope, meaning, purpose, redemption, and atheists in their malevolence run about trying to blame God, a God they don’t even believe, in for all the malevolence in the world.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Is that what you got out of the post? Maybe Pink has a point that my brain is fried. 🙂
I’m not blaming your god for anything. I’m expressing concern that some Christians try and justify the behaviour of your god portrayed in the OT. I think some of the ideas expressed above betray a really unhealthy attitude e.g. that if you create a sentient being you have a ‘right’ to treat it horrifically.
LikeLike
I don’t believe anybody has the “right” to treat their children horrifically Violet, but guess what? They do and not just religious parents either, but also atheists. It’s part of that malevolence that exists in world.
So you are concerned that people who have faith in God will start to perceive themselves as mini gods, entitled to act horrific towards the sentient beings we create? That shows a complete ignorance about the nature of child abuse, and oddly enough, seeks to remove responsibility and accountability from those who engage in such acts and instead lay it at the feet of God.
LikeLike
Ah, but Christians actually have a Parental Train book! Michael and Debi Pearl’s “To Train Up a Child”? It’s a nice Christian book that notes some discipline techniques to include:
• Using plastic plumbing tubing to beat children
• Wearing the plastic tubing around the parent’s neck as a constant reminder to obey
• “Swatting” babies as young as six months old with instruments such as “a 12-inch willowy branch,” thinner plastic tubing or a wooden spoon
• “Blanket training” babies by hitting them with an instrument if they try to crawl off a blanket on the floor
• Beating older children with rulers, paddles, belts and larger tree branches
• “Training” children with pain before they even disobey, in order to teach total obedience
• Giving cold water baths, putting children outside in cold weather and withholding meals as discipline
• Hosing off children who have potty training accidents
• Inflicting punishment until a child is “without breath to complain”
I remind you: this is a Christian parenting book.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Where can I get this book John, this would be quite useful in bringing up children the Christian way.
LikeLike
It’s available online…Amazon carries it I think.
LikeLike
Indeed, there it is!
LikeLike
I wrote a post about this a while back. I get an alarming number of hits to my blog with the search terms “what size pvc to spank my infant”.
LikeLike
The first Amazon review reads:
“2 people wrote this book. 900 people gave this book 5-star reviews. That’s 902 people that the police should be keeping an eye on.”
LikeLike
I saw agree with that reviewer
LikeLike
John,
You employ a fallacy used often by atheists.
In the bizz we it the, “Hitler was a Christian,” fallacy.
It goes something like this:
If a maniac calls himself a Christian, it must be true.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Ahh yes. Reduction ad Hitlerum.
LikeLike
I actually agree partially with you here. Abusers are abusers but the Bible offers justification for abusive behavior. It reinforces the idea, in their minds, that they are righteous making it more difficult to convince them their behavior is abhorrent.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Again, you’re mixing up different issues here. Religious people indoctrinated into this mindset are given licence to treat children in a questionable manner. I’m by no means saying all do, but JZ has pointed to the kind of horrific guidance they receive. It’s completely out of step with our evidence based society’s approach to child rearing, and gives those who may not know better clearly harmful advice.
LikeLike
Kind of interesting Violet, but how do we know that’s abuse? Ironically because of Christian values and the way they have advanced Western civilization. We are offended by the thought of harming sentient beings. Much of the Muslim world doesn’t share this ideal, this morality. You sure don’t see it nature. Some species just eat half their young and be done with it.
Many of the protections children enjoy today come from Christian ideals, education, safety, health. Oh yes, there has been some collateral damage along the way, but go out in the world and have a look at who is feeding the starving children, who is running the homes for child prostitutes, who is caring for and feeding the wounded and broken.
Where there are no Christian values Violet, children are executed, abandoned, sold into sex slavery, or outright murdered with impunity. That is the reality of the situation. People do not learn to prey upon those who are smaller and weaker, that is simply our default state.
LikeLiked by 1 person
This is sweeping statement that has no true evidence to back it up.
Violet’s post perfectly illustrates the point of leading by example and if you have a meglomaniacal despot at the helm who is worshiped by millions as a ”father figure” and the ultimate ‘buck stops here guy’ then this is the example carried forward, and is even more worrying when this maniac’s will is further interpreted by self-appointed custodians of ”his” word. (sic)
LikeLike
You mean, “Christian values” like those espoused by Gary North who wants children stoned to death in public squares?
Those “Christian values,” Insanity?
LikeLike
Insanity:
Might makes right?
I like it~! (As an objective observation—not as a guide to moral behaviour).
LikeLike
Anticipated argument, from one ancient tentmaker (oh, really?) via a semi-modern Fitzgerald:
For in the Market-place, one Dusk of Day,
I watch’d the Potter thumping his wet Clay:
And with its all obliterated Tongue
It murmur’d–“Gently, Brother, gently, pray !”
and even more worser—
Then said a Second–“Ne’er a peevish Boy
“Would break the Bowl from which he drank in joy;
“And He that with his hand the Vessel made
“Will surely not in after Wrath destroy.”
Now are we to think of ‘our Dear Lord’ (all three of Him) as a mere peevish boy?
Or is He (They) in fact the ultimate sadist?
As for the fig tree—a simple object lesson, created without feelings especially for use as illustration. A ‘oncer’. And getting violent in the temple another lesson wherein actions speak louder than words, and after all, nobody really got hurt …
But let’s not forget that He wrote the script roughly (according to science)(and you can’t argue with science) fourteen thousand million years ago. Once He set it all in motion there’s nothing He could do to change any of it … even if He is omnipotent. Poor Bugger …
LikeLike
Thanks Argus, nice quote, and yes they are all a bit of a peevish boy, aren’t they? Well, depending on the verse you’re looking at …
LikeLike
I’m just flattered that a blog post was written because of something I wrote. It’s irrelevant whether you agree with me or not, I’m just thrilled that my little post evoked a response.
LikeLike
Reblogged this on cateritforward and commented:
It’s one thing for like minded people to share your ideas, but when you have detractors sharing your ideas (no matter how deluded they believe you to be), it is something that can truly be appreciated.
LikeLike