obvious falsehoods – an appeal to Christians
One advantage of believing obvious falsehoods is that one is not tempted to imagine one could know the Truth. Clare Flourish
Most Christian denominations seem to think they know the Truth about what the god God wants from belief in him and worship of him. As atheists are fond of pointing out, there are over 42,000 Christian denominations in the world, each with their own diverse practices and wildly varying beliefs. Bore down to within a single denomination, beliefs are all over the place, and are subject to constant change. Even the Catholic Church, which claims to be unchanging over the centuries, has changed its stance on Latin masses, usary, married priests and slavery, to name but a few key areas. No one group could surely claim to the know the Truth by any stretch of the imagination, and yet in every church you visit there will a man, almost always a man, telling people what to believe, telling people what the Truth is.
This is an appeal to Christians to acknowledge that you believe obvious falsehoods. Please do not be tempted to imagine you could possibly know the Truth. You don’t need to bring yourselves to give up on your religion or your belief in the god called God, but try to have some humility about the rock solid foundations you believe your Truth is based on, and encourage the questioning of every Truth you’re told is True.
- Christian churches claim to be based on the teachings of the character Jesus, as portrayed in the Bible. One of his key messages, which was described as being enacted by all his followers in the years following his life-death-life, was to give up all possessions. How many denominations follow this basic teaching? None as far as I know. It is an obvious falsehood that Christianity is based on the core teachings of Jesus.
Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” Matthew 19:21
- Almost all Christian churches subscribe to the 4th century invention of the Trinity – three gods in one. There is no mention of this in the Bible. It was an afterthought belief that had to be invented by church fathers in an attempt to keep one divine authority figure. It is an obvious falsehood that the Bible teaches there are three equal gods in one being.
“If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.” John 14:28
Yahweh is our God; Yahweh is one. Deuteronomy 6:4
So, here I submit two, yet two HUGE obvious falsehoods that face all Christian denominations. Jehovah’s Witnesses may have rejected the Trinity, but they sure have fancy cars and nice clothes when they’re handing out their leaflets on the streets. The pious monks and nuns who gave up all their possessions to follow Jesus pray on a daily basis to the false Trinity invention. No-one is immune to even these two basic Christian falsehoods.
Once again, I appeal to Christians out there to take these falsehoods to heart and accept that if they are wrong about one or both of these major parts of the Christian religion, they are likely to wrong about a whole lot more. Let’s all take a slice of humble pie with our strongly held beliefs and accept that we can never be sure we’re right about anything.
Is that a real blue in those flowers, or have you tweaked it some? I want.
Fat chance getting a single Christian here in blogland to admit what you’re asking them to admit.
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Wrong! Insanity agreed so much she crafted a post around it. 🙂
We’ve discussed the flowers before, I’m sure you can easily get hold of them. Wild sage (salvia in Spanish, sure it’s similar in Portugese). Meadow sage is the blue one and woolly mexican sage behind it. Hummingbirds love it all and it grows beautifully and hugely.
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Salvia…Salvia…is that the plant that took me on the most wild (and frightening) journey?
No joke, I smoked some once, and where did it take me? It bodily took me to my 6 year old self, sitting in a pew surrounded by all the faces of the 200 people that I grew up with in church.
They were all starring at me as my body was scraped with a vise-like belt.
Horror.
Oh, obvious falsehoods.
How about “The word of God”.
Where and when did the Bible get promoted to such a LIE?
No Christian I’ve ever asked this has been able to answer it.
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“This is an appeal to Christians to acknowledge that you believe obvious falsehoods.”
I actually agree with you here, Violet. In fact, a huge part of coming to Christ and actually having a relationship with Him, involves letting go of many of those falsehoods and myths that you may have picked up in life.
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Glad you agree. Although I get the feeling you still think you’re right now.
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Insanity, I’m embarrassed to be asking a grandmother for IT tips, but how do you add the like buttons to comments? I seem to remember you have them.
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LOl, typical grandma that I am…I can’t remember. It’s somewhere in your dashboard and settings.
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Okay, it’s dashboard, sharing, comments, and then you click the box that says, turn on likes.
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Thank you!
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Thanks, InsanityB. I was with Violet regarding the thumbs up and down option. Didn’t like it.
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However you will give this up if hosting yourself, like I do and the fella in the other thread recommended.
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You host yourself because you don’t do anything resembling a blog and your rambles have attracted zero readers, give or take three….
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Nah, I like it here. I had my own website for around 7 years, and took it down after I came to WP. As I said, I like it here because of the community.
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You wouldn’t have to give up the community. Self hosting simply means you keep the site on your own computer instead of having wordpress or another processional hosting service do it for you. The problem is you DO have to have SOME skills for these things. I had to load he machine and if something goes wrong on my site it”s all on me to fix it.
On the other hand it doesn’t cost me anything and I have total control as well free access to plugins and addons for WordPress.
On the other other hand, things specific to the WordPress hosting service, like this built in “like and dislike” feature are not available to me. Oh yeah. I also had to get a buddy to do name resolution for me which amounts to free though too.
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Yes, I understand about self hosting.
“The problem is you DO have to have SOME skills for these things.”
That should go without saying, but it’s not difficult attaining those skills. Besides being a webmaster, I was a reseller for GoDaddy. I published websites for small businesses using GoDaddy’s content management system so that they could eventually maintain it themselves once I got it up and running.
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Really? Is Victoria coder?! 🙂
With that resume, you’re probably better than me then. I can get a LAMP box going and doing what I want, but I barely know enough coding to modify existing code other already written code and even that ain’t too great.
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I’m by far, not an expert. “I get by with a little help from my friend.”
http://www.w3schools.com/default.asp
Having a CMS never hurts either.
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One of the greatest tragedies brought about by the Reformation was the disintegration of Christian unity.
In the Gospel of John, Jesus goes on and on about the importance of unity.
Consequently, Christian disunity is probably the best argument atheists have against the Christian religion, whose purpose is to manifest the teachings of Jesus Christ.
How can Christianity manifest the teachings of Jesus Christ when it violates one of his most basic teachings, unity?
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Wow, great comment SOM. Truly not sure what to do with that, nothing weird in there at all.
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I was thinking the exact same thing! I was reading his comment waiting for the fallacy, and there wasn’t one!
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Maybe we should read it more carefully … we must be missing something … 😉
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I haven’t even read your last one yet Violet. I’m busy with Ruth still in the “deconveriosn” thread.
Sorry for the heartbreak, but I won’t be able to dedicate the rest of my natural life exclusively conversing with the fun crew over here.
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That’s okay Greg. You wouldn’t get this post anyway, as you are probably guilty of believing your version is the True version of Christianity more than any I’ve ever met (and that’s saying something!). Hope you and Ruth and progress the discussion in the next 20,000 words. 😀
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These and so many more. “Age of Accountability”—not in the Bible, but we can’t call him “good” if children who die too soon go to hell. “Security of Salvation”—because no one is sold out enough to actually live a consistent life. It’s comforting to think that we can’t escape “eternal life” even if we try to. We can’t call him “good” if people use the reasoning mind he gave them to come to the conclusion that they actually want no part in this “salvation.” And we’ll just brush verses like Hebrews 6:4-6 under the rug—that’s not talking about us.
So many of the “falsehoods” exist to temper the anxiety that comes from reading and believing what scripture actually says. It’s all more manageable that way.
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Coping mechanisms indeed. It’s that old cognitive dissonance term that people are keen to throw around. Thanks for stopping by, and I love the Hebrews verse, that’s something to ponder.
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Pingback: Unlearning “Christianity” | See, there's this thing called biology...
will we have christians if they follow these teachings?
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Poverty stricken Jehovah’s Witnesses might fit it bill?
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Maybe not plus the other Christians do not think Jws are members of their flock
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Hey VW-
There is a tendency to try to write off christians as inept because of innumerable denominations or contradictions. Because some people cannot say where ‘Cain got his wife,’ they are thought to be fools.
When others do not ‘sell everything they have,’ some say their faith is defective. However, to quote Paul Harvey, there is more to be told.
The teaching proved ‘no man is perfect,’ and you quoted as much. God’s word remains true, and people are proved to be imperfect. Still, many have in fact ‘sold all,’ and lived the monastic life, but like the proverbial eunuch, this is not given to all men.
At the end of the day, God is still infallible, men are fallible; God is still impeccable, while man is peccable. God is still true, while every man is a liar. And that’s the rest of the story. 😉
But God’s word is still flawless, and loses none of its lustre by conflicting denominations, or by the hypocrisy of others.
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Neur-
Yes, that is a claim I am happy to make.
The conscience is a wonderful thing.
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Colorstorm wrote: Yes, that is a claim I am happy to make.
The conscience is a wonderful thing.
Critical thinking is a wonderful thing. 🙂
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Ah yes, it is unbiased critical thinking and a clear conscience that led me to know in the perfectness of the scriptures,
😉
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Critical thinking and having a conscience were the catalyst for me leaving Christianity after 40 years of devotion.
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Thank u Neur-
Your statement and new life is common, and I suppose there are a thousand reasons why ‘u left.’
There are however, no defects in God’s word, and His opinion of you has equally remained unchanged.
Just know that for the time being………..His light will just have to shine on your back.
😉
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“Just know that for the time being………..His light will just have to shine on your back.”
Well, it’s been a while since I got a sunburn on my back. Let’s just say that I “saw the light” and now use “sonscreen” 😀
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“Your statement and new life is common, and I suppose there are a thousand reasons why ‘u left.”
The main reason is because the god you worship, Yahweh, is unethical has the behavior of the worst of dictators and your average male chimpanzee. But here are a few things you might want to think about just in case you weren’t aware:
and
and
and
and
and
and
and
This affects the credibility of the prophets, Jesus and his disciples.
Repeating the scriptures that Violet quoted:
“If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.” John 14:28
“Yahweh is our God; Yahweh is one” Deuteronomy 6:4
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Neur-
You spent a lot of time and energy putting that together- You would be pleased to know I’ve seen all the examples.
Any man who denies the authority of scripture is immediately suspect. Read the works of Alfred Eidersheim, whose literary and spiritual work are unsurpassed in scholarship.
His work alone ‘the life and times of Jesus the messiah,’;stands unequalled and still has been proven faultless in research, fact, and verifies the truth of the scriptures, and all historical accounts which your sources deny. .
I suppose it just boils down to who is more trustworthy.
Your contemporaries, who post here and other like places, have argued your same points using the same references, and sorry to say, it’s a song whose tune is old.
There are far better reasons to ‘deny the faith,’ casting aspersion on the contents of scripture is not one of them.
But I’m curious, you said you had a 40 year experience in ‘christianity?’ What then was attractive in the first place if it all fell apart as useless?
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You sound like you’re not even willing to converse. For someone who says on your own blog that you do not welcome third-party input, you are quick to offer an “expert” whose research you seem to believe is irrefutable. Someone who questions the authority of scripture is suspect? Really? Did I read that correctly? I was an authentic believer, and now I’m authentically not one. But I would never be so arrogant as to shut down a conversation the way you do. I think you’re a good writer. So write some words of your own, acknowledging your humanity and the possibility that you could be wrong, and have a polite conversation.
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Hi CC,
The third party you speak of is in a different context as explained there. If you were to look at my other conversations with differing views, you may be surprised that I am more polite than u may think. Others here may want to agree..
The main difference CC between Eidersheim and the rabbis in question here, Mr. Edersheim believes the record of scripture, while the rabbis do not. This is a critical distinction. If the rabbis found fault with interpretation, that’s different, but to question the Exodus, the man Moses himself, brings up a whole lot of issues not even worthy of discussion, for the debate is he said/she said.
The patriarchs are ‘legendary stories?’ I would pretty much say these ‘rabbis’ have been self made men. To be fir, there are alleged christians who deny the ark was a real vessel, there was no Daniel in the den, no resu8rrection of Christ, etc. There is enough blame to go around.
For whats its worth, Alfred was not reared in a christian home, and his conversuion came with a price. He honestly researched the topic at hand, and concluded as to its veracity. My opinion of him probably does not carry much weight, but it is his life and he stuck to it.
Not sure what u mean tho as to ‘shutting it down.’
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“Shutting it down” means saying that an issue is “not even worthy of discussion.”
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——–Someone who questions the authority of scripture is suspect? Really? Did I read that correctly?——-
Oops, sorry CC, better address this for you,. and allow me to remove the ambiguousness.
A person who questions the scriptures (I do all the time) is on a different ball field than somebody who mocks scripture, calling what is true a fable, and pretending to be a spiritual leader.
Questions are evidence of a healthy mind, but the men cited here are not credible not because they question, but because they are leading others with a false authority. They have set themselves up higher than God.
How in God’s name can a person be a rabbi and not believe the scriptures?
Saul of Tarsus was to be commended for his unbelief, but his zeal was misguided. He believed every word of God, yet, he was blind-
Do u see the difference CC?
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Fantastic. I love that you used quotes from actual biblical scholars– and rabbis, nonetheless. I find myself embroiled in debates of this nature too frequently lately. If only the remaining literalists out there (and, truly, all believers), would step back, think critically, and read some scholarship on their holy book(s)– not the tripe written by apologists who call themselves scholars.
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“But God’s word is still flawless, and loses none of its lustre by conflicting denominations, or by the hypocrisy of others.” That may be the case as far as all Christians are concerned, but it only serves to further the point that none of you can claim to be holders of the Truth – not least you.
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Well you got me VW,
I do admit I am lousy example, but this does not change the fact that there is One who is sole depositor of the truth, and His word is just as good.
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If God is infallible, then the Bible must be wrong! God had to hit the reset button once with the flood, and then had to change the rules with sending Jesus down to do away with animal sacrifice.
Third time’s the charm?
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Jason-
Out of courtesy I will respond by saying hello,
But I just do not have enough context from you to begin to answer.
Sorry bout that. (I will say though that yes, God is not only infallible, but He also cannot lie)
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“He also cannot lie” How do you come to that conclusion? I find that Christians make up a lot of wishful thinking attributes for their god, it’s kind of baffling.
Did he not lie to Abraham when he said he wanted him to sacrifice his son? And what a twisted and foul trickery that would be if it occurred in real life. Imagine a parent with a blade at the point of killing his child. Imagine a terrified child bound in an altar with its parent on the point of killing, a blade raised! All because an alleged all knowing god wanted to check if a mere human was really afraid of him? Such a being would be cruel liar, a proud fool and, quite frankly, a psychopath.
It’s fascinating that Christians can find any other message in the story. I should know, I remember blocking the obvious moral conclusions and only allowing the ‘accepted’ Christian rationale to enter my consciousness. Crazy days 😀
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HI Violet-
Thank you for your attention, really. You said;
“——-Did he not lie to Abraham when he said he wanted him to sacrifice his son?————‘
Ah no. What was the lie? To be fair Violet, you must consider the entire purpose of Abraham and his son, WITH the previous promises of God, that through Abraham’s seed, all the nations of the earth would be blessed.
Now how would this occur if Isaac was dead? Hmmm. Scripture always answers scripture, and what you don’t recall or know, is if Abraham killed his son, God would have to raise him from the dead.
Hebrews 11.19 agrees 🙂
You bring up natural concerns regarding such a thing, and I do not discount your points, but natural is not spiritual.
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Sigh, as if to prove the point, you ignore the entire humanitarian and logic angles and ramble about what would have happened if Isaac were killed … I don’t know.
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The context is that when you did not create something well the first time, you start over or make modifications. God did both in the Bible.
Not to mention how Satan and Hell are seen as opposing God – yet God would have created those as well.
It simply doesn’t add up to an infallible God.
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Hey jas-
Try looking at your argument from the Creator’s point of view. This changes things here quite a bit.
God is not on trial, the way most here like to suggest; man is on trial.
The ruling on the field stands: God is infallible and perfect in every way.
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So you’re saying that how humanity functions is beyond God’s control most of the time?
God is not on trial, the flaws in the Christian version of God are. Looking at it from the Creator’s point of view gives me the same outlook. He puts humanity on the planet, humanity heads in a bad direction, God has to start over again.
Not to mention, animal sacrifices to atone for sin? Why in heavens would that be a requirement in the first place? God might be infallible, but the Christian version of God really needs to get his act together to fit such a definition.
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U said: —————So you’re saying that how humanity functions is beyond God’s control most of the time?———–
Ah, no.
If you were a piece of clay, would you have any right to question the master potter??
Seems its too common around here;
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I’m not questioning the master potter, I am questioning those who are telling about the master potter. Their depictions don’t line up.
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jas-
The issue is always what everybody avoids: SIN- Are you aware of what exactly happened when man sinned? It wasn’t pretty.
If people represent God incorrectly, it put the onus on them to get it right.
God has revealed enough that we are without excuse, and He has nothing more to add to a completed word.
Then there is death…………………If some cave-dwellers were to write an epitaph of history, they would avoid like the plaque the idea of sin and death, for it incriminates everyone. .
Kind speaks to inspiration, wouldn’t ya say.
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A sin is essentially an action that is in opposition to humanity, often of selfishness. Yes, sins have troubling consequences in the end if left unchecked.
How can you be so sure that you are working from a completed Word of God and that subsequent Holy books such as the Quran, for example, is not Godly as well?
If Jesus was Godly, why didn’t he write a Holy book rather than rely on eyewitness accounts that were passed on before being written down? He did have about 18 years to do so when he wasn’t so active in his ministry.
So many things don’t add up.
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jason-
Just a correction-
Sin is not ALWAYS outward and visible. So when u say ‘it is an action against humanity,’ this is a narrow description, and an important distinction.
The sin of hatred occurred long before the murder………….Just ask Cain.
Yes, things don’t add up when not interpreted according to scripture. 😉
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Actually things add up much better when not interpreted according to scripture.
And you are correct, the actions against humanity does include the internal action of thought. You don’t need the Bible to understand that.
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After some thinking, my one comment was a bit out of line. I should have said, things add up better when scripture isn’t the central source of interpretation. Religions do tend to hold some fantastic concepts and understandings, but all too often they bring with them significant flaws that shouldn’t be overlooked either.
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Well Jason, other ‘religions’ have flaws but the scriptures alone are flawless.
If not, do say why and how
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I have mentioned a couple of points already in the nature of the God of the Bible. There are also the problems with the contrast between the vengeful God of the Old Testament and the loving God of the New Testament.
There seems to be a significant problem with clarity on the whole of the Bible, as Christians themselves tend to be quite unlike Jesus. One only has to look as far as the trend of many Christians supporting conservative agendas that focus on judgement and punishment for sins. That is a route running completely opposite to Jesus’ humanity-minded approach.
Genesis has its own share of problems in telling of the start of existence.
The great flood has mountains of evidence that go against it.
There seems to be many other smaller plot holes that I have seen pointed out as well.
No religion is without its flaws and questionable content – they are human attempts to make sense of existence.
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Colorstorm says: “God is not on trial, the way most here like to suggest; man is on trial.”
Very VERY good sir.
Here’s my lesson for children again. They’ll just love this:
“The lesson I use for children is a drawing of a big king on a big tall throne with a little person standing in front of it. See that king boys n girls? That’s how you see yourself before Jesus saves you. Staring down at God deciding whether He’s really there and whether He gets to be king or not. After He saves you? You see that HE was the King all along.”
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What is “God’s Word”?
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Mark-
Don’t know your motive for asking,
and don’t know who you are asking, others will tell you what it isn’t; I’ll tell a little of what it is. (And I too will be mocked 😉
First, as to written, it contains ALL that pertains to life and godliness. The sceptic will mock the first part, but will despise the second, since he says ‘there is no God.’
Second-
It is the only Divine revelation to man, which is self provable, containing information and events which no man could speak of nor know. It is perfect in every way.
The riding into Jerusalem on a donkey foretold by Zechariah was fulfilled, and stands alone as a prophetical marvel.
It is God breathed, men writing what they were willed.
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth…
It contains the only true account of creation and all life, in the correct order, which others try to emulate.
This Word is so sure that it is magnified higher than the name of God.
This word documents the fall of man, and its devastating effects on all creation, even putting ‘the fear and dread of man’ into the life of the animals.
This Word proves that God has chosen one nation whereby He would reveal Himself to the world after the fall of man. The nation of Israel proves that God’s word is good.
He has said that all nations would hate them, and He is always correct.
God’s word also proves he has another purpose to draw out a people for his name.
And the Living Word, is the Lord Jesus Christ, who is the word of God. Attack one, and you attack the other.
There is a reason why God says ‘do not add to this word,’ for the impeccability of Christ would be challenged. Not a good idea.
These are thus a few things that describe God’s word. Needless to say, there are many more.
But from Genesis to Revelation, the written word is perfect. Before anybody has the audacity to reject it, it would be a good idea to study the contents, as the word has devoured many a fool.
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Even from a Christian perspective, which I don’t have, I would say naming the compilation which is The Bible “The Word” is absolutely heretical. Where does anyone have the ability to say the Bible is the “Word of God”? Please give a reference.
To say the Word of God is what began the big bang, I could accept.
To say the Word of God is what breathes life into the void,I could accept.
But to say this book called the Bible is “THE Word of God” is stupid.
The: used as a function word to indicate that a following noun or noun equivalent is a unique or a particular member of its class.
There can only be ONE “THE” Word.
One major problem Christians have is not being able to identify with this “Word” that they are taught of because they invariably consider The Bible to be “The light unto their feet,and path”, when that’s not what that verse says,since there was no Bible when that verse was written.
Furthermore, Colorstorm, you said “God said ‘do not add to this word’.” It actually says,
“And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
What book was being spoken of here? There was no Bible.
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He said unto them: These are the WORDS which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the LAW of Moses, and in the PROPHETS and in the PSALMS concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
The written word and the living word are one.
‘In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word WAS God.’
‘In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.’
“The word of God is quick and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword.’
Not sure what book you read, but there is plenty of evidence that proves the initial post was nothing but true.
As to ‘adding’ or ‘taking’ away, well now, taking away is adding isn’t it. You are making the scripture NOT say……………..thus adding doubt to it.
Notice the above reference to Luke, it is possible to read without understanding., And by the way, Psalm 119 is about the word of God.
I repeat: ‘Thou hast magnified thy word, above thy name.’ Not sure how much more easier it can be.
I make no apologies for this Word, which is forever settled in heaven. But if you are looking to debate, I am not interested, the text is clear enough, and I cannot make it more true.
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Colorstorm, you said, “He said unto them: These are the WORDS which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the LAW of Moses, and in the PROPHETS and in the PSALMS concerning me.”
So The Law and the Prophets and Psalms is the Word,and no one should add or take away from them?
So the new testament was a mistake?
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Many people think it was a mistake, so if you believed that, you would have a lot of company.
However.
The same man who said ALL things must be fulfilled……………also said………..’I have MANY things to SAY to you…………..but ye cannot bear them now………………..when the Spirit comes, He will guide you into ALL truth.’
Once more, the words of Christ are the recorded words of God, including the magnificent words to Paul the apostle.’
James- ‘the word of truth’
Peter- the word of God’
John- the word of life
Paul- ‘God breathed scripture’
The twelve- ‘we should not leave the word of God’
And according to John: ‘I was on the isle called Patmos for the word of God, and the testimony of Jesus Christ………………….’
just a few examples that prove the New Testament and the Old have the same author, and are equally the word of God.
Hopefully this helps answer a few questions.
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No it doesn’t help because when I read, “DO NOT ADD OR TAKE AWAY”, that doesn’t mean, oh, except for the gospels, and revelations and whatever Paul wrote.
The problem I see with ALL of this, stems from the belief that the Bible is God’s Word.
King David didn’t need the Bible, because he had God’s word in his heart.
I think (from a Christian perspective, which again I don’t have, but let’s play angels advocate here) a true Christian would be following the spirit that is within more than writings of men, but thew Bible is worshiped and followed (selectively) way more than “God”.
I still see no way the Bible can hold the title “Word of God” any more than the Torah, Book of Morman, Uncanonized scripture etc…etc…
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Mark J Monroe”I think (from a Christian perspective, which again I don’t have, but let’s play angels advocate here) a true Christian would be following the spirit that is within more than writings of men, but the Bible is worshiped and followed (selectively) way more than “God”.
The decades long parade of unbelievers I’ve bumped into with no idea whatsoever of the theology of protestant orthodoxy continues. There has been mountains of biblically y sound writing on this. If you’re interested look it up.
The living Word in my heart testifies to and of the written word in my hand.
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I don;t know how to tell you other than being truthful, but how do u suppose that WORD got in his heart?
He said himself:
‘Thy WORD have I hid in mine heart…that I might not sin against thee.’
Without God’s word, then everybod’ys word is equally good, and you know how that works.
It is God’s word, and I cannot tell you any more than that. Try it yourself- like David
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My point is that if you believe the Bible is “The”…emphasis on “THE” here, do I need to define “The”? If you believe the Bible is The Word of God,No other anything can be God’s “Word”. No? Man…semantics.
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I am Christian, and Mark Monroe you are correct a Christian is led by the Spirit, not by a book, the truth is the Bible has been changed by man, if you compare the Greek New Testament with the English New Testament, that truth will be seen, I adhere to the truth that is in the Bible and it is the Holy Spirit that shows me that truth, the Bible is not the final authority, the Holy Spirit is the final authority, “the word of God” is not a book, it is the Holy Spirit
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At least born from above is an honest fool.
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2 Corinthians 3:2 you [the Corinthian church] are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men: Forasmuch as you [the Corinthian church] are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tablets of stone, but in fleshy tablets of the heart – The Holy Spirit is the word of God, 2 For 3:2-3 confirms that truth
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“At the end of the day, God is still infallible, men are fallible; God is still impeccable, while man is peccable. God is still true, while every man is a liar. And that’s the rest of the story. 😉
But God’s word is still flawless,”
Speaks one who claims to know the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. 😉
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Sorry-
should go here
😉
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Btw, Violet, I’m drooling over your header image. Was that taken from your garden?
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The old garden in Argentina, sigh. Our balcony of shrivelled Scottish plants doesn’t quite have the same effect. I recommend any type of wild sage for gorgeousness and hummingbirds.
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The Catholics have it easier on the Trinity than the Evangelicals do. Evangelicalism at root was the rejection of all doctrine not in the Bible. But why should further truth not be revealed later? One substance or similar substances, proceeds from the father or from the father and the son, all decided later, a tradition of doctrine leading to the Assumption of the BVM which became official in the 19th century on the basis of popular piety. OTOH the Mormon tradition of baptising proxies for their ancestors has a verse used to justify it. I found it once, somewhere in Paul, thought Oh that’s interesting, forgot the precise details.
Thank you for quoting. I was trying to provoke. What of metaphor and poetry? Drunken protestations of undying friendship?
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Glad to see you’re seeing some sense in Mormonism! That would make a great post, justifying all the craziness with biblical quotes to confuse the rest of Christianity – “wait a minute, why aren’t we doing that?”
Like I said, excellent sentence. I just googled it to check, and you’re definitely the only person to have uttered it. I’m confident we’ll find it in Brainyquote.com before long.
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The New Testament doesn’t support different denominations in the church, 1 Cor 1:10 confirms that truth, also just because someone claims to be Christian doesn’t mean that they are Christian, In Matt 7:21-23 Christ makes it very clear that he will deny many that believe in him because they practice sin. The Biblical definition of a Christian is someone who believes God’s Son, Yeshua is the Messiah that doesn’t practice sin (1 Jn 3:9, 1 Jn 5:1, & 1 Jn 5:18). The Christian church isn’t as big as people have been led to believe.
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Sorry, this went into Spam for some reason. So you believe that even most Christians will suffer eternally?
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No, I don’t believe anyone that is Christian will suffer eternally, I believe anyone that claims to be Christian that does not stop practicing sin, will suffer eternally.
Those who claim to be Christian that do not stop practicing sin will not enter the kingdom of the heavens (Matt 7:21-23),
the New Testament was written to the church, not to the world, 1 Cor 5:9-13 clearly states that God is the judge of the world, and the church is the judge of the church, meaning, the church is to remove anyone that claims to be Christian that practices sin from the church.
The church is not to judge the world, no one led by the Holy Spirit will ever judge the world because the Holy Spirit will not do the opposite of what 1 Cor 5:9-13 says, that should show you how many people there are in the world that claim to be Christian that are not led by the Holy Spirit, which means that they are not Christian.
“Many” will go the way of destruction, the “many” that are spoken of in Matt 7:13 are people that believe in Christ that don’t stop practicing sin, the “many” are not people that do not believe in Christ.
“Few” will enter the kingdom of the heavens, the “few” in Matt 7:14 are the people that believe God’s Son, Yeshua is the Messiah that stop practicing sin, by the way I am not preaching to anyone, I am sharing what a true Christian believes,
I do not believe the New Testament was written for our time period, I believe everything in the New Testament has already happened, I do not believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ, that gospel is false, it does not agree with the gospel that God had the Apostles preach.
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42,001
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LOL!
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Colorstorm and I just may get along.
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Nice beard pilgrim
😉
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Nice mane Leo! 😉
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You talk like you don’t know anything about Jesus or His Father or purpose! 3 Gods? Really? One God head with 3″trinity” Father Holy Spirit and Son! Can you count at all? Now realise Christianty is NOT a religion or a cult like JWs Muzzies or Catholics, it’s unique perfect Truth a supernatural revelation as one perfect relàtionship with Christ our Lord God and saviour Amen!
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Now that’s some serious pride of belief! Wait, doesn’t the Bible say a few things about being proud?
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Allelujah! Do atheists love their families? There’s your proof! That will tell you apart from God because “God is LOVE” Jesus is Gods son who walked, lived and died so we also can truly live in His form, 99.4% of the bible is proven TRUTH 0.6% not proven to be untruth, Speak to a Christian today and get living your life.
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Bye an God Bless!
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CC
😉
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Hey Colorstorm–this is one of those times where “shutting down” the conversation is necessary.
“Speak to a Christian today…” Are you selling eternal life in the presence of a God who created and loves the universe—or a weight loss pill?
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“Are you selling eternal life in the presence of a God who created and loves the universe—or a weight loss pill?”
CC, you nailed it. Christianity is a business. Christianity’s neuromarketing strategies are the most effective in history, especially with the technology we have today. The hierarchy have perfected the methodologies of getting people into suggestive brain wave states and releasing reward (feel good) neurotransmitters, giving followers the illusion of well being and a sensed presence.
With abundant information at their fingertips, the religious hierarchy are also fully aware of cerebral automatism where studies since the 1950’s have demonstrated that at least 75% of people line up to majority opinion even when it contradicts evidence right before their very eyes. I feel sorry for people who’ve been conned for for any reason, but especially when they’ve been conned for filthy lucre’s sake.
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Neuro,
If what you say is true, that “Christianity’s neuromarketing strategies are the most effective in history, especially with the technology we have today,” then why are Churches emptying out all over the West?
In fact, Christianity moves from person to person pretty much the same as it always has.
Of course we all benefit from the printing press which gives each of us access to the greatest minds in history.
But again, getting educated through reading and studying is nothing new and depends on freewill motivated by one’s own desire.
People who become atheists seem to be the one’s susceptible to “neuromarketing,” not Christians.
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“then why are Churches emptying out all over the West?”
Think about what you just wrote. Is the obvious not obvious to you?
“People who become atheists seem to be the one’s susceptible to “neuromarketing,” not Christians.”
That’s funny coming from a Poe. 😉
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Neuro,
Name calling and verbal abuse aren’t arguments, they are the Atheist Way.
And since what I wrote is true, it’s obvious that I have given sufficient thought to the topic.
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LOL
Others my get duped by your BS, but most of us who’ve been around the bend with you do not.
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Neuro,
Thanks for proving my point once again.
And I loved that post by Atheist Papers!
I wish everyone would go over their and read that post.
After all, I like what I say and I love myself for saying it!
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I (we) know you do.
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Neuro,
It would be great if you put as much effort into having a civil discussion as you do trying to ruin someone’s reputation.
But you are an atheist after all, and that is just too much to expect.
Your bullying and abusive atheism has no place in civil society as you so clearly demonstrate.
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SOM, you ruined your own reputation. Good day Mr. Troll.
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Neuro,
Quite the contrary.
You make it very clear that I am a legend in your own mind (and the minds of many atheists, evidently).
Thank you.
I find that quite heartening since it shows that the trained intellect, civil discourse and reasoned discussions are actually the greatest threats to atheism and its acolytes.
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“SOM, you ruined your own reputation. Good day Mr. Troll.”
Oh poor SOM. I think you upset him. And on the rare post where he made a useful, not just amusing, contribution – did you see his original comment? An interesting point regardless of what side of the fence he genuinely sits on. Unity could have been my third bullet point.
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The irony, right?
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Wisp,
How is it possible to become offended when I am a legend in your own mind.
I am pleased and honored to have taken up rent free residence inside the minds of so many atheists.
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Likewise 😉
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CC
😉
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“realise Christianty is NOT a religion or a cult like JWs Muzzies or Catholics, it’s unique perfect Truth”
Thanks for stopping by. I’m sorry you can’t see that every one of those religions or cults you so readily dismiss thinks exactly the same of your Truth. Billions of people all smugly believing their one niche of Truth is the only one – if there existed one True creator, he would be playing a cruel game with a lot of sincere, good people.
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I’m Christian, and I definitely do not believe in the trinity, Christ was a man born of the Holy Spirit that’s what made Christ one with God, the statement “one with God” means to be in agreement with God. God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are in agreement, therefore they are one, the trinity teaching is false.
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violetwisp sneers: You host yourself because you don’t do anything resembling a blog and your rambles have attracted zero readers, give or take.
Why couldn’t I do that with a service? I host my own because I like computers and self hosting gives me additional freedoms and less cost than I would have with a paid offsite host. I also get better performance. I have made ZERO effort to gain readership Violet. It’s a tool. If anybody sees it it’s a bonus.
What’s next? Are you going to be calling me “d**kh**d” too? I really did expect more outta you. Now you know EXACTLY why Samantha Field threw me out. I didn’t do a thing to her OR her readers. Just like I haven’t to you or yours. You really ARE sorry you invited me round now though aren’t you? You figured all Christians would be at the instant mercy of the invincible eggheads you entertain over here.
Just like Samantha, you are entirely unprepared to deal with a well developed philosophical defense of historic reformed protestant Christianity. She bailed before you did though
Instead of simply admitting that, you now resort to this. That’s ok though 🙂 Like you said yourself. I can take it. I’ll continue to give you no justification for banning me, same as with Samantha, but you’ll likely concoct one. Just like she did.
What’s really interesting to me is that I bet you are understanding what I’m talking about with Ruth at least as well as she is. Maybe more so.
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My, you are touchy Greg! You can replace ‘sneers’ with ‘banters’ or ‘misplacedely winds up’. For the millionth time, I’m not taking part in your bigger discussion with Ruth. Actually I’m not even reading most of it. But that doesn’t mean that I don’t enjoy the occasional cheeky comment. 😉
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Thanks for misplacing your response though, and drawing my attention to the comment above, which hasn’t been addressed. Now here is a True Christian!
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Where do you get your information? If what you say is true on your blog, you’ve sold all your possessions for your personal belief that you are getting the Truth from the god God. So basically all other people who call themselves Christians are wrong? Can you not see a pattern of this happening all down through history?
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As a matter of fact I am poor, also everything that is on my blog is the truth that is found in the Bible, it’s all backed up by what is actually written in the Bible, I was born from above (born of the Spirit) 19 years ago, but for 18 years I was deceived by false teaching. After I left the false church, I began to see the truth that I was never taught, the New Testament never says that a Christian has to believe Christ is God, I never knew that until after I read John 20:31 & 1 John 5:1
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bornfromabove7 says: ” After I left the false church, I began to see the truth that I was never taught….”
I tried. I really did, but now you’ve got Violet’s attention.
I just know I’m gonna be sorry for this 🙂 You say you left the false church sir. Where is the “true” church?
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The church are the people that believe God’s Son, Yeshua is the Messiah that don’t practice sin, that is the New Testament’s definition of a Christian (Jn 20:31, 1 Jn 3:9, 1 Jn 5:1 & 1 Jn 5:18).
The false church has deceived many of God’s people, but in God’s time, God will reveal the truth, and His people will leave the false church.
A person led by the Holy Spirit will speak the truth and then let the Holy Spirit show people the truth, a person led by the Holy Spirit will NEVER force their beliefs on others.
Did you know that a Christian isn’t supposed to fight the government, Romans 13 confirms that truth, the false (Christian) church fights the government, that should show you how big the false church is.
No one led by the Holy Spirit will ever do the opposite of what the New Testament says a Christian is supposed to do
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But don’t you find it a bit odd that if your god existed he would allow almost all of his followers, or at least people who were trying their hardest to follow him, to make such an obvious error? And don’t you find it a bit odd that out of the billions of people to have existed your god if he existed would choose you to reveal the Truth to? Greg and some of the other Christians above think similar things. The pattern is striking, but the narrowness of your interpretation, it’s lack of popularity, makes your claim even more curious. (Not to mention you’re trying to raise money on the back of it …)
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The truth is never meant to be popular, it is meant to set people free from false teaching, that is what I am doing on my blog, for centuries people have been taught false about the New Testament, I am teaching the truth that is written in the New Testament so that those who are supposed to see the truth will see the truth, I fully understand that only a few people will see the truth, and that the majority of people that claim to be Christian will call me a false teacher, but that’s what happens when the truth is spoken. I started my blog on Aug 11, 2014 and as of right now I have 2,259 views, so people are seeing the truth that God is having me teach.
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Also you have to understand that the New Testament was written for the time period of the Apostles, it was not written for our time period, everything in the New Testament has already happened,
the gospel had to be preached to the Roman world, and then the end of the age of the law would happen, the end of the age of the law happened when Jerusalem was destroyed in AD 70,
in Matt 24:14 the Greek word for the word world is referring to the “Roman World”. Col 1:23 says that the gospel was preached to every creature under heaven, therefore the command to preach the gospel had already been fulfilled by the time that Colossians was written.
The gospel had to be preached to the Roman world and then the end of the age of the law would happen. The tribulation that is spoken of in Matt 24:21 is the destruction of Jerusalem.
The book of Revelation is about things that happened before the destruction of Jerusalem, is about the destruction of Jerusalem, is about the day of the Lord, the day of the Lord happened immediately after Jerusalem was destroyed, and Revelation is about the new heavens and new earth that is spoken of in 2 Peter 3:13 –
the New heavens and new earth is spiritual, it is not a new planet, the new heavens and new earth is happening now, the new heavens and new earth are the people that believe Yeshua is the Messiah that don’t practice sin
Everything in the New Testament has already happened.
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Violet says: “Greg and some of the other Christians above think similar things.”
Violet you had the decency to ask my permission before quoting me on this site. Now I AM asking YOU to be careful when using my name. My beliefs are not in any way similar to what this man is saying. My beliefs are the historically orthodox ones that he walked away from. They have been held by many millions and millions of Christians past and present including 44 of the 55 delegates to the first constitutional convention of the United Sates. Your friend Ruth will tell you.
This guy is either a loner or is in some crackpot splinter cult. He will tell you next that this is EXACTLY what he expects guys like me to say and all four of his homeboys agree.
Watch.
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Nonsense. Don’t delude yourself into thinking your version of Christianity is mainstream just because you live in one part of one country of the world at one point in time where a lot of people practice something similar. You’ve already written off the whole of the Catholic Church, the largest and most consistent practice of the Christian faith in the history of all Christianity. I dread to think what you’d have to say about Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Quakers and endless other denominations whose basic beliefs diverge from yours.
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My faith was THE majority faith of the protestant western world, including Europe, from the reformation into the 20th century Violet. Look it up. Once again, you haven’t the first flickering clue what you are talking about.
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I studied medieval history at university. The limited history of the protestant church does little to impress me. How many centuries till you think the god God clarified his message? Your stammering insistence that you’re right reads exactly like bornfromabove7 does to you from the point of view of any Catholic …
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Fine. Now I know what I’m dealing with.
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bornfromabove7 : “The truth is never meant to be popular, it is meant to set people free from false teaching, that is what I am doing on my blog, for centuries people have been taught false about the New Testament, I am teaching the truth that is written in the New Testament so that those who are supposed to see the truth will see the truth, I fully understand that only a few people will see the truth, and that the majority of people that claim to be Christian will call me a false teacher, but that’s what happens when the truth is spoken. I started my blog on Aug 11, 2014 and as of right now I have 2,259 views, so people are seeing the truth that God is having me teach.”
Where is the true church sir? I asked you above please. Where is the assembly of God’s covenant people? The “called out” ones? The ekklesia. Where?
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Tribulus, I answered your question, but here it is again
The church are the people that believe God’s Son, Yeshua is the Messiah that don’t practice sin, that is the New Testament’s definition of a Christian (Jn 20:31, 1 Jn 3:9, 1 Jn 5:1 & 1 Jn 5:18).
The false church has deceived many of God’s people, but in God’s time, God will reveal the truth, and His people will leave the false church.
A person led by the Holy Spirit will speak the truth and then let the Holy Spirit show people the truth, a person led by the Holy Spirit will NEVER force their beliefs on others.
Did you know that a Christian isn’t supposed to fight the government, Romans 13 confirms that truth, the false (Christian) church fights the government, that should show you how big the false church is.
No one led by the Holy Spirit will ever do the opposite of what the New Testament says a Christian is supposed to do
Does that answer your question ?
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No sir, it does not answer my question. Which is, where are they? Aside from you, where are some more real Christians? It’s an honest question.
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Tiribulus, they are scattered throughout the world, most likely they are part of the false church, but when it is time they will leave the false church, I was deceived by the false church for 18 years, so it can take a long time for God to remove someone from that church. One thing is for sure, those who are born of the Spirit will see the truth before they die and leave the false church
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bornfromabove7 on November 7, 2014 at 9:47 pm said:
Tiribulus, they are scattered throughout the world, most likely they are part of the false church, but when it is time they will leave the false church, I was deceived by the false church for 18 years, so it can take a long time for God to remove someone from that church. One thing is for sure, those who are born of the Spirit will see the truth before they die and leave the false church.”
Let’s try it a different way. Please give me the names and hopefully the website of some other real Christians who believe like you do.
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bornfromabove
Out of interest, is the “real church” you’re speaking of the communist communities established by the Apostles (the people who actually knew Jesus, unlike Paul) and their converts?
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john zande, the church are the people that believe God’s Son, Yeshua is the Messiah that don’t practice sin, that is the New Testament’s definition of a Christian (Jn 20:31, 1 Jn 3:9, 1 Jn 5:1 & 1 Jn 5:18).
The false church has deceived many of God’s people, but in God’s time, God will reveal the truth, and His people will leave the false church.
A person led by the Holy Spirit will speak the truth and then let the Holy Spirit show people the truth, a person led by the Holy Spirit will NEVER force their beliefs on others.
Did you know that a Christian isn’t supposed to fight the government, Romans 13 confirms that truth, the false (Christian) church fights the government, that should show you how big the false church is.
No one led by the Holy Spirit will ever do the opposite of what the New Testament says a Christian is supposed to do
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Errrrum, right, so is the “real church” you speak of the communist communities established by the Apostles (the people who actually knew Jesus, unlike Paul) and their converts… The first Christians?
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The funny thing is, your may even mean well bornfromabove7 .
And yes John Zande. The book acts does indeed teach communism, IN THE CHURCH. That’s where you’re goin anyway. No, nobody does that. Or very few. (NO I am NOT getting into that now)
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Thanks, Greg, but I was kind of asking Bornfromabove, not you, as I’d like to see what he actually means (by way of a working example) of this “real Christianity” he’s talking about.
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john zande, the New Testament was written for the people (the church) that lived during the time before Jerusalem was destroyed, the job of a Christian is to speak the truth and then let the Holy Spirit show people the truth.
And when I say speak the truth, I am not talking about preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ, the letter “J” did not exist during the time that the letters in the New Testament were written, therefore the early church NEVER said the name “Jesus”, besides the name that is above every name that God gave His Son, is the name “Messiah” or “Christ”, no one has to believe in the name “Jesus: to be Christian (born of the Spirit).
Revelation 21 speaks of “new Jerusalem”, new Jerusalem is the church, new Jerusalem is now, all who believe Yeshua is the Messiah that does not practice sin are new Jerusalem. Everything in the New Testament has already happened.
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Errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, OK, great stuff, so is the “real church” you speak of the communist communities established by the Apostles (the people who actually knew Jesus, unlike Paul) and their converts… The first Christians?
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No, Paul was definitely a real Christian, everyone that God used to preach the truth in the New Testament was a real Christian. Paul was definitely born from above
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Paul never knew Jesus, never spoke with him, never heard his commands. The Apostles did, and they formed communist communities. Are those communist communities, therefore, the true church? It would appear so, considering they were established by the people who actually spoke with Jesus, asked him questions, and listened to his answers.
Do you live in a communist commune, like the Apostles and the first true Christians?
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No, I do not live in a communist commune, but I am poor, and I am born from above, just as Paul was born from above.
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ, Paul was led by the Holy Spirit, that is what made Paul a Christian and I am led by the Holy Spirit and that is what makes me a Christian, no one has to live in a communist commune to be Christian.
The true church are the people that are led by the Holy Spirit, those who are led by the Holy Spirit do not cause trouble, they do not force their beliefs on anyone, if you think that a Christian is someone that tells you that you need to accept Jesus, that’s not a Christian, that’s a person that claims to be Christian that is not led by the Holy Spirit, those who are not led by the Holy Spirit are not Christian
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The church of Yeshua the Messiah are all the people that believe Yeshua is the Messiah that don’t practice sin, the Christian church that everyone sees in the world today, is not the church that is spoken of in the New Testament, the church of Yeshua the Messiah does not force it’s beliefs on anyone, the false church does that, the huge church that calls itself Christian in the world today is the false church, the false church is greedy for power, the false church is in the government, the false church is on TV, the false church is everywhere preaching a false gospel, and preaching false about the Bible
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The reason why so many people are leaving the so-called Christian church is because it doesn’t speak the truth that is in the Bible. Everything in the New Testament has already happened, the people that claim to be Christian that say the New Testament, specifically Revelation is about our time period do not speak the truth.
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See here’s the thing. Violet, please go HERE and keep scrolling waaaaaaaaay down. See? I consider all those men of God from all over the world to be my brothers. (and many MANY more) See is this fella does and then tell me we’re the same. In order to post sermons there you MUST affirm THIS
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If the teaching that says, “a Christian must be water baptized” be true, then why does Acts 11:16-18 say baptism is no longer water baptism, it is the Holy Spirit?
This is what I’m talking about Tiribulus, there is only one baptism (Eph 4:5-6) confirms that truth, and Acts 11:16-18 confirms that baptism is the Holy Spirit,
now if John MacArthur and the majority of people that claim to Christian still say, “a person has to be water baptized”, then they (the majority of people that claim to be Christian) do not speak the truth, and if they claim to be Christian and do not speak the truth, they are NOT led by the Holy Spirit, a Christian is someone that is led by the Holy Spirit. Do you see that ?
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bornfromabove7 on November 7, 2014 at 10:03 pm said:
“If the teaching that says, “a Christian must be water baptized” be true, then why does Acts 11:16-18 say baptism is no longer water baptism, it is the Holy Spirit?
This is what I’m talking about Tiribulus, there is only one baptism (Eph 4:5-6) confirms that truth, and Acts 11:16-18 confirms that baptism is the Holy Spirit,
now if John MacArthur and the majority of people that claim to Christian still say, “a person has to be water baptized”, then they (the majority of people that claim to be Christian) do not speak the truth, and if they claim to be Christian and do not speak the truth, they are NOT led by the Holy Spirit, a Christian is someone that is led by the Holy Spirit. Do you see that ?”
Ok. Then how bout you name for me just ONE other real Christian aside from yourself who does not live in your house. (see what I’m talkin about here folks?)
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Lord help me. How did I get into this now? I have to go until later.
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Tiribulus, the church is supposed to believe the same thing (1 Cor 1:10), if I tell you that I am Christian and I do not speak the truth that is in the New Testament, would you believe that I am led by the Holy Spirit?
Also, 1 Jn 2:26-27 says no one has to be taught by man, that the Holy Spirit is the teacher – The Holy Spirit is my teacher, not man, the false church says that a Christian has to go to church to be taught the truth, that teaching does not agree with the New Testament.
Jn 16:13 the Holy Spirit will guide you into all the truth
1 Jn 2:26 These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you.
1 Jn 2:27 As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.
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bornfromabove7 You are just not going to answer my question are you?
Violet, I’m sure you’ve noticed, you will NEVER have this problem with me.
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lol!I already told you who the church is, so I answered your question, but you want me to answer according to what you believe is the answer, and that’s where the misunderstanding comes from, if I say to you that I am Christian and I speak the same truth that God had the Apostles teach, then I am the church, if you cannot see that, then God isn’t showing you
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“if you cannot see that, then God isn’t showing you”
Priceless. This is one of Greg’s (Tiribulus) favorite phrases. LOL
Gettin’ a taste of your own medicine Greg, eh? 😉
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Um, no.
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Yes. 😀
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bornfromabove7 on November 7, 2014 at 11:51 pm said:
lol!I already told you who the church is, so I answered your question, but you want me to answer according to what you believe is the answer, and that’s where the misunderstanding comes from, if I say to you that I am Christian and I speak the same truth that God had the Apostles teach, then I am the church, if you cannot see that, then God isn’t showing you”
Names. Faces. Where? I gave a link to 868,171 sermons from many hundreds of preachers who I consider brethren. I’m asking you for just one person I can contact besides you who doesn’t live in your house, who you embrace as a brother in Christ who believes what you believe.
When I have that name and contact info you will have answered. I’m waiting.
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“I gave a link to 868,171 sermons from many hundreds of preachers who I consider brethren.”
What’s your point, Greg? What makes his interpretation of scripture any less valid than John Calvin?
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Tiribulus, the New Testament never says you have to listen to man to hear the truth, so why are you so intent on me having to give you a name of someone, if I tell you that I am Christian, and I speak the truth to you, isn’t that enough ?
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I don’t listen to the teaching of man, man is a liar, the Holy Spirit that lives in me guides me into all the truth (Jn 16:13), if someone tells me that they are Christian and tells me that the devil is a fallen angel, I know that they are speaking false because the Bible does not support that teaching, the majority of people that claim to be Christian have been deceived by false teaching.
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I don’t have much time now. Please tell these folks what happens if two people claim God told them something diametrically opposed to the other.
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The Holy Spirit does not contradict what the Bible says, if I tell you something that is not true, then I am not led by the Holy Spirit, if you study Matt 24:14 in Greek you will see that Matthew 24 is not talking about the end of the planet, if you study Revelation in Greek, you will see that Revelation is talking about the Roman world, not the planet, it is the English Bible that has caused all the false teaching. Once you realize that Revelation is talking about the Roman world, then you will see that the New Testament was not written about our time period
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Did the person or group you learned Koine Greek from agree?
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The Holy Spirit that lives in me showed me the truth, not man, I do not follow the teaching or traditions of man, I am led by the Holy Spirit, He shows me the truth, halleluYah !
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My point is that this man is a total loner. A rogue heretic who cannot point to even one single other human being on this planet who believes what he believes. My views have a rich history and remaining testimonial corroboration in the earth today.
It’s one thing to say most of the church is false. I agree. I agree because most of the church has fallen from biblical truth and morality. It’s quite another to say I AM the only one.
I can only be honest Victoria. The more you talk, the more apparent it becomes that you really do not know a thing about Christianity. How bout you? Where is the church or denomination you left? Can I see their website? My people are ALL over my Facebook page.
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Wow! That’s a powerful accusation, where are your facts to back up your claims, where have I spoken false to you?
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I never said that I am the only one, that is your perception of what I am saying, I said that I am a true Christian which is the truth, I have no reason to lie to you, and the truth is, the majority of people that claim to be Christian do not speak the truth about the Bible
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I can see that you do not care about the truth, if you look up the Greek word for “world” in Matt 24:14 you will that that word is referring to the Roman world, that Greek word is also used in Rev 12:9, Matt 24:14 is talking about the Roman world, and so is Revelation, the truth is found in the Greek text, not the English translation, I am speaking the truth to you, I have no reason to lie to you, everything in the New Testament has already happened.
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“My point is that this man is a total loner.”
Well, that’s interesting, Greg. Jesus was a longer, too. Christianity is a plagiarism of Judaism and Paganism.
“The more you talk, the more apparent it becomes that you really do not know a thing about Christianity.”
That’s funny coming from a guy who belongs to a . http://youtu.be/-i3mX0YRrjM
“Where is the church or denomination you left? Can I see their website?”
In my pursuit for “truth” over the span of 40 years, I was a member of and active in most mainstream Christian denominations (with exception to JW & JCLS), as well as a few independents. Didn’t get around to all 42,001 sects, but I did have one of my bibles rebound 3 times. 😉
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Well rats, I missed up embedding a link in my previous comment to Greg.
Clicky .
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Listen man. I’m not just trying to give you a hard time. Honest I’m not, You need to think about what we’re saying though. Only you. Everybody else is lost. I agree with you about practicing sin and the small percentage of the world that actually knows him, but I base that on doctrine shared by the church worldwide for centuries. Not on interpretations known to nobody except myself.
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I never said anyone is lost, I said they are false, I was part of the false church for 18 years, God can remove anyone from the false church at anytime, if someone claims to be Christian and does not speak the truth that is in the Bible, then I don’t believe they are Christian, but that doesn’t mean that God won’t show them the truth, it’s not my job to say who is born of the Spirit and who is not, my job as a Christian is to speak the truth and then let the Holy Spirit show people the truth, that’s what my blog is all about
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I asked bornfromabove7: “Did the person or group you learned Koine Greek from agree?”
To which he has replied:
“The Holy Spirit that lives in me showed me the truth, not man, I do not follow the teaching or traditions of man, I am led by the Holy Spirit, He shows me the truth, halleluYah !”
Lemme just make sure I got this. The Holy Spirit gave you private instruction in Hellenistic Greek?
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“My point is that this man is a total loner. A rogue heretic who cannot point to even one single other human being on this planet who believes what he believes.”
How do you think Christianity has mutated into so many forms over the centuries? Each time a rogue ‘heretic’ gets a new idea in his (almost always his) head, supposedly from the god God, eventually bundles together a few followers and spreads it to the discontented masses. In 200 years time his denomination could be bigger than yours, and he’ll easily claim it has more original Biblical backing than anything you practice. I love how you distance yourself from this – the lack of perspective is striking. Because I think you know the facts, not like some bubble Christians who understand nothing about the rest of the world or general history.
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Violet, I am not going to be able to fully correct you on this for lack of time. The reformation found nothing new and in fact went back to scripture and found plenty of allies in history. That’s the very short version of that.
Also there are NOT NOT NOT a zillion versions of protestant Christianity. That is an atheist/Catholic red herring and in many cases a fully self aware deception. Essential saving orthodoxy is quite broad and encompasses many traditions where smaller non fatal issues are in dispute.
In that looooooooong list of men of God I linked you before are quite a few I disagree with on quite a bit. This bornfromabove7 fella falls outside of ALL of that with zero representation either in history or Christendom today. He has abandoned and or corrupted just about every essential Christian truth to the point of true splinter fringe cult status. I tell you no lie when I say that you are not likely to stumble over someone who has more experience with this than myself. If I may be so bold.
There is no, none, nada, zilch precedent on any level for his kind of private interpretation. (2 Peter 1:16-21) His gospel is a Satanic counterfeit and I could send a parade of actually sound students of the bible through here, who may not even agree with me on a lotta stuff, but will definitely take my hand in denouncing this level of flagrant overt heresy. I do not hate this guy nor am I angry with him, but he IS lost in the service of another Jesus and another gospel (Galatians 1) known only to himself.
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Hey Greg, I have the solution for both you and bornfromabove: The Altar Challenge detailed in the 18th chapter of the Book of 1 Kings. You both meet in some field, build your temples as instructed, and call upon your god to make it known who is correct.
Would you be up for this? Is your faith strong enough to put it to the test?
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No sir, that would be tempting the Lord my God. I m not a prophet commissioned by Yaweh with such authority and neither is this geo-politically theocratic Israel. I would not dare to pretend upon a mighty man of God like Elijah.One of only two to be taken bodily into heaven without tasting death.
You are not really not doing too well either John with your serial displays of spectacular ignorance of historically orthodox Christianity. I’s ok to be ignorant (which is not the same as stupid) until you to try to convince others who know better that you’re not.
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That’s odd, I don’t recall mentioning orthodox Christian practices….
Moving right along
So, you don’t have faith enough to enter into the Altar Challenge?
That’s tremendously interesting….
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The altar challenge is unbiblical in today’s church John. Keep trying please.
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That’s interesting. Why? Who says its “unbiblical,” you?
If you feel so strongly that you’re right, I think you should do it… To show your god you’re serious.
You are serious, aren’t you? Do you not trust your god?
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Man I can’t stand typos. Always in a hurry. Lemme try that again:
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No sir, that would be tempting the Lord my God. I m not a prophet commissioned by Yaweh with such authority and neither is this geo-politically theocratic Israel. I would not dare to pretend upon a mighty man of God like Elijah. One of only two to be taken bodily into heaven without tasting death.
You are really not doing too well either John with your serial displays of spectacular ignorance of historically orthodox Christianity. I’s ok to be ignorant (which is not the same as stupid) until you to try to convince others who know better that you’re not.
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“The reformation found nothing new and in fact went back to scripture and found plenty of allies in history.”
Hilarious! Every single one of the 42,001 of you that exist have your own pitiful (given the context) justification for why you are the True Church. Here’s a selection:
Jehovah’s Witnesses
How can we be sure that today we have a correct understanding of what the Bible really teaches? The time came for Jehovah to reveal the truth. He foretold that during ‘the time of the end, the true knowledge would become abundant.’ (Daniel 12:4) In 1870 a small group of truth-seekers recognized that many church doctrines were not Scriptural. Therefore, they began searching for an understanding of the Bible’s original teachings, and Jehovah blessed them with spiritual insight.
Mormons
The Apostle Peter prophesied that Jesus would restore His Church before His Second Coming Jesus Christ began to restore His Church in its fulness to the earth through the Prophet Joseph Smith in 1820. It has grown to become a worldwide Church with over 13 million members. It has the same teachings and basic organization as the Church established by Jesus in New Testament times.
Catholics
I have said, outside of the Catholic Church there is no divine faith. Some of the Protestant friends will be shocked at this, to hear me say that outside of the Catholic Church there is no divine faith, and that without faith there is no salvation, but damnation. I will prove all I have said. I have said that outside of the Catholic Church there can be no divine faith. What is divine faith? When we believe a thing upon the authority of God, and believe it without doubt, without hesitating. Now, all our separated brethren outside of the Catholic Church take the private interpretation of the Bible for their guide, but the private interpretation of the Bible can never give them divine faith.
I could go on another 41, 998 times, but I think you get the picture. 😀
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Here’s a question you should be asking, if the New Testament makes it very clear that the gospel was preached to every creature under heaven, then why are so- called Christians still preaching the gospel?
Col 1:23 makes it very clear that command to preach the gospel was fulfilled by the time that Colossians was written.
Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
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I continue to get the picture Violet that as I have been saying, whatever it is you were? “Christian” is not it.
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Tiribulus, why do you deny the truth that Col 1:23 says? No one led by the Holy Spirit would EVER deny what Col 1:23 says, the New Testament was not written for our time period, Col 1:23 confirms that truth
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Wow! Tiribulus, you are a devil (false accuser), you say I am a herectic, after I have spoken the truth to you, that’s very sad, based on your words to me, I know without a doubt that you are not led by the Holy Spirit, I do not speak another gospel, your words speak of yourself, you are the satanic counterfeit, you are the false church, that’s the truth about you
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Bornfromabove
Would you do the altar challenge with Greg?
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No, I do not associate with the false church
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Keep this one in mind folks. He does NOT associate with the false church. Which would include myself and the thousands of preachers I linked before.
bornfromabove7 on November 8, 2014 at 4:22 pm said:
No, I do not associate with the false church
He was not asking you to associate with me. Elijah was not “associating” with the prophets of Baal.
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“Associating”, means that I won’t have anything to do with you or anyone else that calls me a heretic who claims to be Christian 🙂
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I don’t associate with anyone that claims to be Christian that do not speak the truth, since you called me a heretic, I know that you do not speak the truth, therefore I will have nothing to do with you, I have spoken the truth to you about the New Testament and you have denied that truth, therefore I know that you are not led by the Holy Spirit
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Why is this a “false” church thing? If it were false, why did your god perform on cue? Did your god get it wrong, and make a mistake?
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I’m talking about man, not God, God has people speak false so that His people, those who are born of the Spirit can see who is from God and who is not, I can tell that Tiribulus by the words that he has spoken about me is not led by the Holy Spirit, therefore he is part of the false church
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Understood.
So, will you do the altar challenge? Your god has done it, so clearly its the “True Church,” right? You represent the true church, so your god will answer you….
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No, I don’t have to do that, I already know that Tiribulus is not led by the Holy Spirit, his words that he has spoken here prove that truth to me, therefore there is no reason to go any further, when someone says they are from God and they do not speak the truth, I know right away what spirit they are led by, only someone led by the flesh would say the things that Tiribulus has said about me, I am not a heretic, that is the truth and I speak that truth by the Holy Spirit that dwells in me.
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Fair enough. Will you do it with me, then?
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Why do you want to challenge me, you don’t believe in God, right?
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I will if you win!
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To be honest there is no need to do any challenge, the Greek word for “faith” is “pistis”, “pistis” means “be persuaded”, “faith” is God’s divine persuasion, the only reason why I believe Yeshua is the Messiah is because God persuades me to believe by the Holy Spirit that lives in me to believe that, there is nothing that I can say or do to make you believe what I believe, God must persuade you to believe, God does everything, that’s what the New Testament teaches, that’s why I do not force what I believe in anyone, if you don’t believe, that’s great, and if you do believe, that’s great, as a Christian it is not my job to convert anyone, the Holy Spirit does that, not man, my job is to speak the truth, the rest is up to the Holy Spirit 🙂
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Oh come’on! Let the Holy Spirit “persuade” me through you! If you see my blog you’ll see I’ll be a frighteningly good theist. Imagine, I can turn all that mischievous talent around if you win… and I will, I promise. If your god blows up my altar with a burst of radiant heaven fire I’ll walk the earth, naked, preaching.
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It’s not about me, I really don’t care if you believe what I believe, I have spoken enough truth on this page for you and anyone else to see the truth 🙂
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Oh, and you’re right about Greg. He clearly has no faith in his god, that’s why he’s chickening out.
You, however, seem to have a lot of faith….
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In that looooooooong list of men of God I linked you before are quite a few I disagree with on quite a bit. This bornfromabove7 fella falls outside of ALL of that with zero representation either in history or Christendom today. He has abandoned and or corrupted just about every essential Christian truth to the point of true splinter fringe cult status. I tell you no lie when I say that you are not likely to stumble over someone who has more experience with this than myself. If I may be so bold.
Wow! Tiribulus, you are a devil (false accuser), you say I am a herectic, after I have spoken the truth to you, that’s very sad, based on your words to me, I know without a doubt that you are not led by the Holy Spirit, I do not speak another gospel, your words speak of yourself, you are the satanic counterfeit, you are the false church, that’s the truth about you, pride comes before a fall, I will no longer talk to you
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I’ll try this again, but my hope is fading here too.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I asked bornfromabove7: “Did the person or group you learned Koine Greek from agree?”
To which he has replied:
“The Holy Spirit that lives in me showed me the truth, not man, I do not follow the teaching or traditions of man, I am led by the Holy Spirit, He shows me the truth, halleluYah !”
Lemme just make sure I got this. The Holy Spirit gave you private instruction in Hellenistic Greek?
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If you have to ask that question, then you don’t understand the Holy Spirit, Jn 16:13 the Holy Spirit will guide you into all the truth, what part of Jn 16:13 don’t you understand?
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You talk alot about “Greek words” and “studying the apocalypse “in the Greek” friend and then say no man teaches you but only he Holy Spirit..
That must mean the Holy spirit taught you Greek right?
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The Holy Spirit that lives in me guides me into all the truth, the Holy Spirit shows me what words to look up and then through that the Holy Spirit shows me the truth, the Greek word for world in Matt 24:14 is referring to the Roman world, look it up, I’m not lying to you, that means that Matt 24:14 is talking about the Roman world, not the whole planet.
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Here is the truth about Matt 24:14 – The Greek word for “whole world” in Matt 24:14 is referring to the Roman world, it’s not referring to the planet, therefore Matt 24 isn’t talking about the end of the planet.
In the world today there are many people who claim to be Christian that say, “Matthew 24:14 says the gospel has to be preached to everyone on the planet and then the end of the world will come”, but the Bible does not agree with that teaching.
Colossians 1:23 says the gospel was preached to every creature under heaven, therefore Matthew 24:14 can’t be saying, “the gospel has to be preached to everyone on the planet”
The Greek word “oikoumene” for the words “whole world” in Matt 24:14 is referring to the Roman world, so what Matthew 24:14 is saying is, “the gospel has to be preached to the Romans world and then the end will come”
Colossians 1:23 confirms that the gospel was preached to the Roman world by the time that the book of Colossians was written.
The “end” that is spoken of Matthew 24:14 is not the end of the world, the “end” that is spoken of in Matthew 24:14 is the end of the age.
The Greek word for the word “world” in Matt 24:3 is “aion” or “age”, the word “aion” or “age” is referring to a time period, the word “aion” is not referring to the entire planet.
Matthew 24:3 – And as the Messiah sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world [aion – age]?
The gospel had to be preached to the Roman world and then the end of the age would happen, that’s what Matt 24:14 is saying.
The Greek word “oikoumene” for the word “world” in Matt 24:14 is also the word that is used for the words “whole world” in Rev 12:9, both Matt 24:14 and Rev 12:9 are talking about the Roman world. Matt 24:14 and Rev 12:9 are not talking about the entire planet.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon [the dragon in Rev 12:3 is Rome] was cast out, that old serpent, called the devil, and satan, which deceiveth the whole world [oikoumene – the Roman world], he was cast out to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world [oikoumene – the Roman world] for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end [of the age] come. The “end” that is spoken of in Matt 24:14 is the “end of the age” that is spoken of in Matt 24:3.
The gospel had to be preached to the Roman world as a whole before the end of the age.
After the gospel was preached to the Roman world, then the end of the age happened, the “tribulation” that is spoken of in Matthew 24:21 happened when Jerusalem was destroyed, Jerusalem was destroyed in 70AD. The end of the age that is spoken of in Matthew 24:3, is the end of the age of the law, that age ended when the temple was destroyed in 70AD.
Matt 24:21 – For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be
Matt 24:34 – Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
Col 1:23 – Be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which you have heard and which was preached to every creature under heaven
Colossians 1:23 confirms that the gospel had already been preached to the Roman world by the time that the book of Colossians was written, therefore the “tribulation” that is spoken of in Matthew 24:21 has already happened, it happened after the gospel was preached to the Roman world.
The statement, “this generation will not pass until all these things take place” in Matthew 24:34 is referring to the time period of the disciples, it is not referring to our time period, we are not that generation, we are not in the “last days”.
Since Colossians 1:23 says the gospel was preached to every creature under heaven, that means everything in Matt 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21:5-33 has already happened.
There is nothing in the New Testament that says the gospel has to be preached in the world today, there is nothing in the New Testament that says the Bible was written for this time period.
Matthew 24:14 says the gospel has to be preached to the Roman world and then the end of the age will come, the end of the age happened when the temple was destroyed, the temple was destroyed in 70AD, therefore everything that the Messiah says in Matthew 24:14 has already happened.
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Tell me. Why the use of the syntactical word order requirement of the dative feminine singular in that portion of sentence, especially in light the indefinite article? You have 5 minutes so that these people will know that you did not fumble around trying to find answers Let’s see how good your holy spirit is.
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I spoke the truth to you, I am not interested in your immature games, if you think you know the truth that’s fine, you have already called me a heretic, so I already know the spirit that is in you 🙂
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This is an easy one man:
Tell me. Why the use of the syntactical word order requirement of the dative feminine singular in that portion of the sentence, especially in light of the indefinite article? You have 5 minutes so that these people will know that you did not fumble around trying to find answers Let’s see how good your holy spirit is.
Put up or shut up.
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Wow! you are challenging the Holy Spirit, if you are led by the Holy Spirit, you would not be doing that 🙂
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Look man. You don’t know a freakin thing about the marketplace Greek of the New Testament and apparently neither does whatever spirit you’re listening too.
While that part of the sentence does in fact carry the dative case in the feminine singular gender and number (making it the indirect object of the sentence) there is no such thing as an indefinite article in Koine Greek and word form determines the flow of thought, not word order.
I am NO scholar, but I know enough to know a total fraud when I see one.
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lol!
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oikoumené: the inhabited earth
Original Word: οἰκουμένη, ης, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: oikoumené
Phonetic Spelling: (oy-kou-men’-ay)
Short Definition: the inhabited (Roman) world
Definition: (properly: the land that is being inhabited, the land in a state of habitation), the inhabited world, that is, the Roman world, for all outside it was regarded as of no account.
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Here is the truth about the Greek for the word “world” in Matt 24:14 & Rev 12:9, do you agree with this –
oikoumené: the inhabited earth
Original Word: οἰκουμένη, ης, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: oikoumené
Phonetic Spelling: (oy-kou-men’-ay)
Short Definition: the inhabited (Roman) world
Definition: (properly: the land that is being inhabited, the land in a state of habitation), the inhabited world, that is, the Roman world, for all outside it was regarded as of no account.
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D you deny the truth that Matt 24:14 and Rev 12:9 are talking about the Roman world? Do you deny the truth that Col 1:23 says that the gospel was preached to every creature under heaven? Do you deny the truth that Acts 11:16-18 says that water baptism is not the baptism that saves anyone?
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Ok, how bout this.
Explain to these fine people why usage and not etymology alone determines meaning.
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Look, I have already spoken the truth to you, you deny that truth, and instead try to challenge me to some game that you think will make me look stupid, you are the one that denies the truth, so why are you trying to make me look like the false teacher, when it is you who are speaking false, your words about me are from your flesh, not the Holy Spirit, you don;t fool me, I see right through you by the words that you speak 🙂
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Here is the truth about Revelation 12 – In Rev 12:9 the Greek word for the words “whole world” is referring to the Roman world, it is not referring to the planet. The devil, satan in Revelation is Rome, not a fallen angel.
The English New Testament comes from the Greek New Testament, if the English translation doesn’t agree with the Greek, then the English Translation isn’t the truth.
There are many places in the English Bible where words have not been translated correctly, and because of that wrong translation, many people have been led to believe things that are false, that is the case with Is. 9:6, Matt. 24:21, Titus 2:13 & Rev. 12:9.
In Rev 12:9 the Greek word for the words “whole world” is referring to the Roman world, it is not referring to the planet, when that is understood, Rev 12 and the rest of Revelation makes sense, because Rev 1:1 and Rev 4:1 make it very clear that Revelation is written about things that happen after Christ was resurrected, which means nothing in Rev 12 is about before the creation of man, or about before Christ was born.
Everything in Rev 12 is about things that happened after Christ was resurrected.
To say, Rev 12 talks about things that happened before the creation of man is to contradict the truth that Rev 1:1 and Rev 4:1 speak, the Bible doesn’t contradict itself.
So, the reader must understand that Rev 12:9 is talking about Rome deceiving the Roman world, for the rest of Revelation to make sense.
Rome was the devil (false accuser) and satan (adversary) of God’s church. Rome was a deceiver like the serpent was in the book of Genesis, that is why in Rev 12:9 & Rev 20:2, the devil (Rome) is called “that old serpent.”
Rev. 1:1 [This is] the revelation of Yeshua the Messiah [his unveiling of the divine mysteries]. God gave it to him to disclose {and} make known to his bond servants certain things which must shortly {and} speedily come to pass in their entirety.
Rev. 4:1 After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice which I had heard addressing me like [the calling of] a war trumpet said, Come up here, and I will show you what must take place in the future.
In Rev 12:3, the dragon is Rome & in Rev 12:9 the dragon (Rome) deceives the whole Roman world, in Rev the dragon also known as satan, the devil is Rome, not a fallen angel, therefore in Rev 20:10, Rome is thrown into the lake of fire, not a fallen angel.
Since the Bible makes it very clear that there is no sin in heaven, the word “heaven” in Rev 12:3 is not talking about the “heavens” the place where God dwells. In Greek the word “heaven” in Rev 12:3 is singular, if the word were plural in the Greek text, then Rev 12:3 would be talking about the place where God dwells, in the Greek New Testament, the place where God dwells is called “the heavens”, not “heaven”.
The word “heaven” in Rev 12:3 is talking about the sky, just as the word “heaven” in Luke 10:18 is talking about the sky.
Rev 12:3 Then another ominous sign (wonder) was seen in heaven [in the sky]: Behold, a huge, fiery-red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and seven kingly crowns (diadems) upon his heads [Rome].
Rev. 12:9 And the great dragon [Rome] was cast out, that old serpent, called the devil [false accuser], and satan [adversary], which deceiveth the whole world [oikoumene – the Roman world], he was cast out to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 20:10 Then the devil [Rome] who had led them astray [deceiving and seducing them] was hurled into the fiery lake of burning brimstone, where the beast [the Roman Empire] and false prophet were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever (through the ages of the ages).
Revelation is a description of what happens before the destruction of Jerusalem, a description of the destruction of Jerusalem, a description of the day of the Lord, and a description of the world of righteousness that is written about in 2 Peter 3:13.
The day of the Lord is the Lord’s judgement upon the ungodly people, that judgement happened after Jerusalem was destroyed (Matt 24:29-30), the ungodly people that are spoken about in 2 Pet 3:7 that will be destroyed by fire, are the people that are thrown in the lake of fire in Rev 21:8.
2 Pet 3:7 isn’t about the planet being destroyed by fire, it’s about people being destroyed by fire, after the nations (heathen world) destroyed Jerusalem, the ungodly people were destroyed by fire.
2 Peter 3:7 But by the same word the present heavens and earth [the world system] have been stored up (reserved) for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly people.
Rev 21:8 But as for the cowards {and} the ignoble {and} the contemptible {and} the cravenly lacking in courage {and} the cowardly submissive, and as for the unbelieving and faithless, and as for the depraved and defiled with abominations, and as for murderers and the lewd {and} adulterous and the practicers of magic arts and the idolaters (those who give supreme devotion to anyone or anything other than God) and all liars (those who knowingly convey untruth by word or deed)–[all of these shall have] their part in the lake that blazes with fire and brimstone. This is the second death.
2 Pet 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth [a new world system], wherein dwelleth righteousness.
In 2 Peter 3:13 the word “we” is referring to, whomever the author of 2 Pet is writing to at the time, the word “we” is not referring to anyone else. It is said that the book of 2 Peter was written around 60AD, Jerusalem was destroyed in 70AD.
In Rev 21:1-2, John is writing about what the author of 2 Pet wrote in 2 Pet 3:13.
Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new sky (heaven) and a new earth [a new world new system], for the former sky and the former earth [the old world system] had passed away (vanished), and there no longer existed any sea.
Rev 22:2 And I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, all arrayed like a bride beautified {and} adorned for her husband;
Everything in the book of Revelation was to happen quickly, Rev 1:1, Rev 1:3, Rev 22:10 & Rev 22:20 confirm that truth, therefore everything in Revelation has already happened.
Revelation is a description of what happens before the destruction of Jerusalem, a description of the destruction of Jerusalem (the tribulation), a description of the day of the Lord, and finally a description of the new world system wherein dwelleth righteousness that is written about in 2 Peter 3:13.
The teaching that says, “Revelation is about our time period” is false.
The teaching that says, “the tribulation is still to come” is false.
The teaching that says, “the day of the Lord is still to come” is false.
Rev 22:10 And he [the angel] [further] told me, Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book {and} make no secret of them, for the time when things are brought to a crisis {and} the period of their fulfillment is near.
Rev 22:18 I [personally solemnly] warn everyone who listens to the statements of the prophecy [the predictions and the consolations and admonitions pertaining to them] in this book: If anyone shall add anything to them, God will add {and} lay upon him the plagues (the afflictions and the calamities) that are recorded {and} described in this book.
Rev 22:19 And if anyone cancels {or} takes away from the statements of the book of this prophecy [these predictions relating to Christ’s kingdom and its speedy triumph, together with the consolations and admonitions or warnings pertaining to them], God will cancel {and} take away from him his share in the book of life and in the city of holiness (purity and hallowedness), which are described {and} promised in this book.
Rev 22:20 He Who gives this warning {and} affirms {and} testifies to these things says, Yes (it is true). [Surely] I am coming quickly (swiftly, speedily). Amen (so let it be)! Yes, come, Lord Yeshua!
Rev 1:3 Blessed (happy, to be envied) is the man who reads aloud [in the seven churches] the word of this prophecy; and blessed (happy, to be envied) are those who hear [it read] and who keep themselves true to the things which are written in it [heeding them and laying them to heart], for the time [for them to be fulfilled] is near.
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bornfromabove7 on November 8, 2014 at 6:03 pm said:
oikoumené: the inhabited earth
Original Word: οἰκουμένη, ης, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: oikoumené
Phonetic Spelling: (oy-kou-men’-ay)
Short Definition: the inhabited (Roman) world
Definition: (properly: the land that is being inhabited, the land in a state of habitation), the inhabited world, that is, the Roman world, for all outside it was regarded as of no account.
Which you copied and pasted from right HERE because like I said. You don’t know a freakin thing about NT Greek. USAGE determines meaning and not etymology alone. Your very own page a bit further down tells the truth. http://tiribulus.net/pix/pix2/fraud.jpg
You’re a Google hack with an ego the size of the milky way who thinks that God only speaks to him and who throws Greek around all the time that he claims was taught him by God Himself, but who doesn’t recognize 1st semester grammar when he sees it. Repent. Forsake this self exalting campaign and live.
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Yes, that is where I got it from, no one has to be a scholar to see the truth, you false accusations show me who you are, you are a devil
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1 Cor. 1:27 – for God selected (deliberately chose) what in the world is foolish to put the wise to shame, and what the world calls weak to put the strong to shame
1 Cor. 1:28 – And God also selected (deliberately chose) what in the world is lowborn {and} insignificant and branded {and} treated with contempt, even the things that are nothing, that He might depose {and} bring to nothing the things that are,
1 Cor. 1:29 – So that no mortal man should [have pretense for glorying and] boast in the presence of God.
1 Jn 2:26 – I write this to you with reference to those who would deceive you [seduce and lead you astray].
1 Jn 2:27 – The anointing which you received from him abides in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. Instead, because his anointing teaches you about everything and is true and not a lie, abide in him, as he taught you to do.
Jn 16:13 – But when He, the Spirit of Truth (the Truth-giving Spirit) comes, He will guide you into all the Truth (the whole, full Truth). For He will not speak His own message [on His own authority]; but He will tell whatever He hears [from the Father; He will give the message that has been given to Him], and He will announce {and} declare to you the things that are to come [that will happen in the future].
Those who say, “God’s people have to go to Bible college in order to teach the truth that is in the Bible”, don’t speak the truth.
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See Victoria? This is another reason why I bring up my lack of formal education sometimes. .
I didn’t graduate high school pal, to say nothing of bible college. (though I do not denigrate formal theological training)) I learned the way God INTENDS for His people to learn. Yes, under the guidance of His Spirit, but also humbly through the service of the giants of the faith who have gone before me.
I don’t make blasphemous idiotic claims that “I’M THE ONE”, which YES YOU ARE claiming until you point us to somebody aside from yourself with your VERY unique beliefs.
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lol! your perception is way off, I speak the truth to you and you still lie about me, why is that, no one led by the Holy Spirit would ever do that, I feel sorry for you, because I know the truth about you
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The New Testament never says a Christian has to by taught by man, 1 Jn 2:26-27 confirms that truth, man says a Christian has to be taught by man, because man needs others to believe what he teaches, most churches are nothing but businesses preaching a false message that feed the flesh in order to get money from people that go to their church,
the truth is, the Holy Spirit that dwells inside God’s chosen vessel is the teacher, no one has to be taught by man to see the truth
1 Jn 2:26 – I write this to you with reference to those who would deceive you [seduce and lead you astray].
1 Jn 2:27 – The anointing which you received from him abides in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. Instead, because his anointing teaches you about everything and is true and not a lie, abide in him, as he taught you to do.
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Greg, all I can do is shake my head and laugh at all this nonsense you spout but you have certainly complimented Violet’s OP and point.
“under the guidance of His Spirit”
Translation: Under the guidance of Greg’s left hemisphere = ego. 😀
Popcorn, anyone?
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Tiribulus, I am not the only one that believes that New Testament wasn’t written for our time period, here is someone else that believes exactly what I believe
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Tiribulus, Col 1:23 says that the gospel was preached to every creature under heaven, that means that what Christ said in Matt 24:14 about the gospel being preached to the world was fulfilled by the time that Colossians was written, and that means that the world that is spoken of in Matt 24:14 is not referring to everyone on the planet, which means that the word “world” in Matt 24:14 has to be referring to the Roman world, can’t you see that truth?
Also I have never said that I am the only one that knows the truth, I said that I am a true Christian, which is the truth, there is no ego in what I have said to you, so I don’t know how you can accuse me of things that you have accused me of, I am speaking the truth to you that is in the New Testament 🙂
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john zande on November 8, 2014 at 6:03 pm said:
Oh, and you’re right about Greg. He clearly has no faith in his god, that’s why he’s chickening out.
The problem you’re having John is that you don’t understand that God could not possibly care less what you think. (He doesn’t care what I think either). He’s not hoping you believe in Him or trying to establish a reputation with you or anybody else on this earth. Your insolent demands would be comical if they weren’t so tragic. The only thing that prevents you this very second from descending into eternal perdition is His sovereign hand.
The fall of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost was the beginning of the church age, OT theocratic earthly Israel now passed. NO person with ANY knowledge whatsoever of NT theology could make such an uninformed challenge 😉 And neither could any such person accept it.
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Ummm, sorry, but you’re dead wrong, Greg. Jesus is quite clear:
So you see, all that OT stuff, well, it stands… Jesus commands it. You’re not going to break a command issued by Jesus himself, are you?
So, it’s clear you don’t have any faith at all in your god, or else you would confidently take up the challenge. In fact, what’s clear is that this is all just show, bluster, an act. You don’t take any of this seriously, as you don’t actually believe. If you did believe, and you were serious, and confident, and really thought you were right you wouldn’t hesitate for one second.
So, why don’t you just drop the act?
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I am at a rehearsal for a church event right now and only have a second, but John you simply persist in embarrassing yourself with your brazen display of grand champion level biblical illiteracy. I mean that’s not even meant as an exaggeration. Those who are in Christ have had the whole law fulfilled for them by Him. Read the book of Galatians, the first 5 chapters of Romans and the whole book Hebrews.
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Um, no… I’ll take Jesus’ words for what they are… Not Paul’s, who never knew Jesus.
Do you follow Jesus, or Paul? If you follow Jesus, then you’ll obey Jesus.
“It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid.” (Luke 16:17 NAB)
“…the scripture cannot be broken.” (John 10:35)
So, Greg, either you have faith and believe in your god, or you don’t. Which one is it? If you believe, and if you think you’re right, then you should race at the opportunity to prove you’re right. This is just logical. As, however, you are chickening out of doing the altar challenge, then it’s clear to everyone who’s reading that you, in fact, have no faith, and this is all an act. You don’t actually believe.
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That’s a bit harsh John. He clearly has faith like all Christians but that’s different from having faith the god God will do tricks on demand. Let’s be honest about another bit where Jesus says they can move mountains if they have faith – not one Christian has scraped up enough faith to do that.
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Nah, I’m not buying that. Greg is so very certain he’s right, and i’m giving him a chance to prove himself. I mean, there is a precedent, isn’t there? Greg’s god has done this before to prove himself, and the truth. Greg is right into the “truth” so this should be something he’d he happy to do. I’m certainly not being unreasonable here. It’s in the book!
What appears to be the case here is that Greg, secretly, doesn’t really believe any of this, and this is just a big old act.
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Well he’s gone quiet so you’ve clearly hit a nerve.
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violetwisp on November 8, 2014 at 11:25 pm said:
Well he’s gone quiet so you’ve clearly hit a nerve.
HAHA!!! I had a rehearsal for an evening event at church tomorrow night, then the gym, then had to run to the store, then had to take a shower, then had to log back into the church computer from here so I could setup for morning services tomorrow because I didn’t have the materials I needed earlier when I was at the church AND I have a motherboard that finally came in that has to go in a computer that I haven’t even started yet. Not to mention the many good friends and other conversation I have going online as well. We didn’t even talk about family on a day like today.
A nerve she says LOL!! My dear I haven’t heard an atheist argument that was actually new to me since like 1989. 😀 Again, I am not even being sarcastic. That happens to be the truth. Ol John here has brought some truly yawn inducing argumentative. In spite of all that I like the guy. I bet he’s a blast in real life. Seriously.
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I have a rehearsal and some other stuff to do until later.
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Hello all! Few days reader, first time poster. Violet, I see you mentioned the bit about having enough faith to move mountains. . . isn’t there someone, somewhere who said, “No one has had enough faith to move mountains but it sure has done a number on skyscrapers!”
Perhaps this is what John Z. might be referring to, in a roundabout way?
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Thanks for your comment. Are you suggesting Greg is potentially dangerous?
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Pingback: Ways of knowing | Clare Flourish
HAHA!!!
Violet asks our thoroughly uninformed newcomer above: “Thanks for your comment. Are you suggesting Greg is potentially dangerous? “
OH BOY!!! Here it comes guys! (I have friends watching) How familiar is THIS?!?!? Outstanding!!! Violet’s workin on that excuse to ban me 😀 😀 😀
Since I feel it useful, I had planned to address the mountain moving faith saying of Jesus. You’ll have to gimme a little while though.
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“Violet’s workin on that excuse to ban me” Where did you get that idea? No-one has ever been banned from my blog, and you’ve certainly not even started being offensive to anyone, so I can’t see that even a ticking off will be in order. I’m just asking Carmen what she means by her comment ie if she thinks you could be asked by your god to do dangerous things in real life.
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If I might request that you look up all my scripture references please? They really are vital to this piece. I would have linked them, but I don’t know how many links per post that Violet’s site supports.
Violet says: “That’s a bit harsh John. He clearly has faith like all Christians but that’s different from having faith the god God will do tricks on demand. Let’s be honest about another bit where Jesus says they can move mountains if they have faith – not one Christian has scraped up enough faith to do that.”
Violet actually does have some of the truth here.
Matthew 17:19-21
Matthew 21:18-22
Mark 11:23-24
The Matthew 17 passage is occasioned by the disciples inability to deal with an especially tenacious demon, while the Matthew 20 and Mark 11 passages are occasioned by the disciples astonishment at the withering of a fig tree that the Lord had cursed the day before.
All of these instances, as well as other faith sayings in the New Testament (John 14:13–14 and 1 John 5:14 for instance) are meant as encouragement to great faith, but are not meant to be taken in an unqualified literal sense.. Faith itself is the gift of God and ALL the good works Christians do in faith are prepared beforehand by Him for them to walk in. (Ephesian 2:8-10) Christ is both the author AND the perfecter of the Christian’s faith. (Hebrews 12:2)
This tells us that any effectual faith exercised by a believer originates from God Himself. Therefore we know that God is not going to gift and empower His child to do that which is contrary is to His own will. God does give faith in answer to prayer but only for those things that He has decreed and empowered for that moment. It is not possible for a Christian to truly believe for something that is not the Lord’s will for Him (or her) because that very faith must be given by Him first. This is also another area where God foreordains mans free choices by divine mechanisms known only to Himself btw.
Now, as I said, all of these passages are for an encouragement to great faith. Jesus is responding to their amazement at His power. He is saying that not only can they also do what He is doing, but even greater things if they only believe. That belief however, as we have seen, is itself under God’s own management and therefore IF they do believe for such great things it will be because the Father has granted it. His example of the mountain has two streams of significance. First, it is a hyperbolic literary device employed to illustrate the extreme heights to which God COULD work through them IF He ever had a purpose in doing so.
It’s God’s mountain, God’s sea, God’s universe, of course He could throw a mountain into the sea through their believing prayer, again, IF He had a purpose in it, which it’s doubtful He ever would. This is not a green light to go have mountain slinging contests to see who has the greatest faith. Even less so it is a toy for satisfying the sneering derisive demands of arrogant skeptics. He denied the pharisees this very satisfaction in Matthew 12:38-42. This is also why it is biblically ludicrous and betrays a monumental ignorance of Christian theology to demand that somebody call down fire from heaven at will. God had a specific purpose in having Elijah do that at that time AND the prophet took them all to the beach and slew them by the edge of the sword afterward. The church is no longer under that kind of temporal administration of justice for idolatry either
The second meaning was that in the traditional Rabbinic literature of the day, such as the Babylonian Talmud for example, men who were or would be great Rabbis were referred to as those who “uproot mountains”. Which was a metaphorical way of expressing their great wisdom and problem solving prowess. When Jesus told his disciples of the power available to them in trusting God, by way of this literary hyperbole of uprooting Mount Olivet AND casting it into the sea, which is some distance away, He was also saying that they would be of far greater use to God and His people than the self righteous hypocritical pharisees who saw themselves as the pinnacle of religious achievement. No, Jesus disciples would be the true uprooters of mountains and solvers of problems by bringing the gospel to the lost. Literal mountains being cast into the literal sea was not the actual point at all.
Do know that I have no illusions that you folks will now say:
No. 😉 You will smirk and snicker at what a gullible dunce I am, but I will have delivered the word faithfully and am therefore a success regardless of how you respond. That’s one of the beauties of serving the true and living God. He rewards you for your obedience whether anybody listens or not.
Nobody who knows this God can keep Him to themselves Victoria (Neuronotes). If only you could believe how I truly long for you to have the peace, joy and assurance for all that has happened in your life that I have in mine. I know. You have all the peace you need right? It is just not possible for me to believe that.
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Wow, a lot of work went into this post Tirib-
I especially appreciate, above and beyond the proper context for the scriptural explanations, the idea that it is irrelevant whether any body believes the message of your effort.
You benefited extremely, and your faith was conditioned, and mine was tempered by the reading. There is a wonderful thing called a ‘witness,’ and a faithful witness who can find?
There are no weaknesses in this post, and any body who disagrees is simply not being honest, and is not rightly dividing the word of truth;.
Well done pilgrim, a true defense.
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Greg, thanks for putting so much effort into that long, yet very predictable reply. Let me give you an idea of what it sounds like. “My little finger has the power to do anything, move mountains, call down lightening – anything at all because it is so powerful. However, I can’t ask it to do anything because it’s already decided everything it’s going to do. But it is responsible for everything you see around you. It used to do tricks to prove its power several thousand years ago but the rules have changed.” Undoubtedly you could have gone on to tell us about the many miraculous things your finger, sorry your god, is still doing today, that can only be identified with hindsight. At least it impressed Colorstorm, so you were hitting all the right religious buttons.
“You have all the peace you need right?” I know this wasn’t addressed to me, and that you’re trying to poke Victoria into some form of atheistic doubt because she revealed some of her past to you and you think that makes her vulnerable. She’s not. Speaking for myself, I’m certainly more at peace than I ever was trying to reconcile all the inconsistencies of the Christian faith with the reality of the world we live in.
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“Let me give you an idea of what it sounds like. My little finger has the power to do anything…”
That, hands down, is the comment of the year!
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Thanks John! I get the feeling Greg won’t agree …
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Well, all things considered, his little finger is much, much, much more powerful than your little finger. Just don’t ask him to demonstrate that power. He doesn’t like that.
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Well, so he thinks. I’m just content that I have enough faith in my little finger to know it’s not a False little finger. I don’t need to convince him, I just need to know I’m making my finger happy.
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Wise. Pissing off the little finger is not good. When Pinky’s get annoyed they can do some dastardly things, smiting and smoting everything 😉
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John, you’re showing your ignorance again. That was before the New Deal, when the rest of the hand (a part of little finger) sacrificed itself to itself for itself (can’t remember you came up with that snappy summary …)
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“am therefore a success regardless of how you respond. That’s one of the beauties of serving the true and living God. He rewards you for your obedience whether anybody listens or not.”
Good morning Greg, or when ever you read this. I’m sure you are busy being important and feeling needed, wanted and significant at church right now, not to mention, thinking you’re scoring points with dominant alpha male of the celestial jungle who will share his “resources” with you and promise eternal bliss if you obey like a submissive monkey, and follow the celestial jungle rules. Right?
While I appreciate the fact that you spent a lot of time explaining to John what many of us have heard preached from the pulpit puppets many times during our Christian years, and studied ourselves, all you’ve managed to do (with exception of a few here reading) is show us the power of indoctrination and confirmed that neural circuity for critical assessment has been deactivated in your frontal lobes. As I shared with you before, you are being rewarded, neurochemically, to dupe yourself.
Nobody who knows this God can keep Him to themselves Victoria (Neuronotes). If only you could believe how I truly long for you to have the peace, joy and assurance for all that has happened in your life that I have in mine. I know. You have all the peace you need right? It is just not possible for me to believe that.
Greg, I understand your drive to get as many people on your side of the fence of artificial turf. To you, it looks greener. Nevertheless, we have significant evidence that most people tend to follow majority opinion even when the evidence is in front of them. It’s, therefore, easier to accept (less confrontational) that the artificial turf on your side of the fence is actually real grass. I’ve mentioned this before but I’ll mention it again: deconversion is not for the faint of heart. You go through a transition that is painful — void of peace and joy and assurance. But that passes if you have the courage to reactivate neural circuitry and embrace reality.
It’s hard accepting the fact that you wasted a large chunk of your life, and gave your best love away to a man-made concept. Christianity is a business that uses techniques specifically for the purpose of deactivating neural circuity and releasing endorphins that give you the illusion of well being. This belief, that you are significant to the alpha male celestial jungle god, creates neural pathways through consistent repetition (indoctrination), and these pathways will be reinforced by networking. Ask any clergy or layperson who’ve came out from among you. Synaptic pruning is difficult. You have to recreate (rewire) yourself again.
As far as you not understanding how I could have peace simply by being fully human and facing death anxiety — I can tell you that having once been in your shoes — your peace is not the same as the peace I experience now. There’s no artificial turf that can compare to the feel of real grass between ones toes.
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As I shared with you before, you are being rewarded, neurochemically, to dupe yourself.
Oh damn! That might also be the greatest comment of the year!
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Violet, sorry for not getting back to you sooner. I posted, then went out last night and am just getting back to replying. I’m also on the east coast of Canada, where there’s a bit of a time difference!
As to the question of whether or not Greg is dangerous, I’ll leave that to the people reading – certainly I have my own opinion about people who claim to hear voices; from god(s) or any other imaginary friend. Greg, I’d be interested in exactly how you can differentiate the voice of god(s) from what your own mind is suggesting. I can’t speak for the rest of you, but I get my inspiration, attention, and affection from the PEOPLE in my life – they really do ‘speak’ to me.
Greg, that mutually rewarding, joyful mind-frolic above was, no doubt, written for Colorstorm — it’s obvious it was good for both of you. The ‘reward’ part can be explained by NeuroNotes quite succinctly – I’d suggest you delve into her research.
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I see what you mean. I tend to think that there’s a difference between the mainstream “[insert god] has spoken to me” and “voices are telling me to do things”. Not that both can’t be dangerous, but that the incidence of danger isn’t necessarily related to religion, more general state of mental health. I think it’s possible to believe [insert god] is communicating with you somehow but still be mentally sound i.e. function according to the social and ethical standards of society generally. Fortunately for us living in the western world, our dominant religion is in a relatively peaceful phase. Unfortunately for many people in other areas of the world, Islam is in an increasingly violent phase.
Anyway, obviously you’ll know all that, but my point is that Greg seems to be in generally a fit state of mind, and while he might want imagine his god is communicating with him personally, it doesn’t sound like the sort of communication that would move outwith the norms of the behaviour within society. Hopefully …
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I tend to be very skeptical about any assertion of divine communication – after all, even Mother Teresa (arguably one of the most devoted, selfless, divinely-inspired people who ever lived) stated that she had never heard the ‘voice of god’.
Your word, ‘imagine’ nails it.
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Yes, it would be interesting to hear from Greg if he hears an actual voice, or if it’s just a feeling he’s convinced is the Christian god, or even if it’s just that he reads the Bible and thinks his interpretation of the words is Correct, for some unknown reason.
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VW
and whom it may concern regarding ‘voices.’
When your father or mother told you ‘Don’t touch the hot oven,’ you obviously heard their voice, and heeded his word..
If he wrote to you ‘don’t touch the hot oven,’ are you not once more ‘hisr voice, and heeding his word?’
So when God says ‘thou shalt not commit adultury,’ are you not hearing His voice? Is not this same standard of ‘hearing’ any less relevant than hearing your Fathers voice to not touch the stove, either verbal or written?
Question is not whether God’s voice CAN be heard, the question is WHY people don’t want to hear it.
It is called the ‘word of God,’ because it can be heard and heeded. It’s up to you how you respond.
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“So when God says ‘thou shalt not commit adultury,’”
Jesus said that if you so much as look upon a woman with lust in your heart, you have already committed adultery (Matthew 5:8). Now that is one big mindfuck. It’s cruel, and it induces unnecessary guilt. Why not just teach our species why we have these evolutionary urges to diversify are genes? Why not teach people about the Coolidge Effect, and how dopamine can give us the sense of well being, but can actually be addictive. Why not teach people about brain development in children and the importance bonding hormones which promote healthy brain development?
As far as the 10 commandments go, they were only intended for the tribes of Yahweh. Murder and stealing and sex trafficking of girls (keep the girls for yourself (Numbers 31) was condoned by Yahweh so long as it was done to people outside the tribes.
While you may mean well, your authoritarian religion is based on shame and punishment. Not education. Jesus, if he existed, was most likely a guru who used the Golden Rule as a central theme, but most certainly, the GR was not original to Jesus.
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Matt 5:28 doesn’t say, “a man who looks at ‘any’ woman to lust after commits adultery with her in his heart”. A husband is supposed to lust after his wife, so Matt 5:28 can’t be saying a man who looks at any woman to lust after her commits adultery. In the Old Testament adultery is a man single or married that has sex with another man’s wife, so the teaching that says, “a man who looks at any woman to lust after her commits adultery” isn’t true.
A husband is supposed to lust after his wife, so Matt 5:28 can’t be saying, “a man who looks at ‘any’ woman to lust after her commits adultery. “
In the Old Testament, “adultery” is a man single or married that has sex with another man’s wife, so the teaching that says, “a man who looks at ‘any’ woman to lust after her commits adultery” isn’t true.
Lev 20:10 if a man commits adultery with another man’s wife, with the wife of his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.
The Greek word for “lust after” in Matthew 5:28 is epithumeó (ep-eethoo meh’-o), epithumeó means “I long for, covet, lust after, set the heart upon”
After reading the definition of adultery in the Old Testament, and after reading what the definition of the word “lust after” means in Matthew 5:28, it is very clear that Matt 5:28 isn’t saying, “a man that looks at ‘any’ woman to lust after her commits adultery with her in his heart”, instead Matt 5:28 is saying, “any man that looks at another man’s wife to lust after (covet) her commits adultery with her in his heart.”
Matt 5:28 whosoever looks on a woman [another man’s wife] to lust after [covet] her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
The statement, “another man’s wife” does not only mean a woman who is currently married, “another man’s wife” is also a woman who has divorced her husband, whose ex-husband is still alive.
A woman who claims to be Christian that divorces her husband and marries another man while her ex-husband is still alive, is an adulteress, Rom 7:3 makes that very clear.
Rom 7:2 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband.
Rom 7:3 So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.
A woman who claims to be Christian is not supposed to divorce her husband, but if she does divorce her husband, she must remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband, 1 Cor 7:10-11 makes that very clear,
therefore if a man who claims to be Christian lusts after (covets) a woman who claims to be Christian that has divorced her husband, whose ex-husband is still alive, the man is coveting another man’s wife, which means he is committing adultery with her in his heart.
1 Cor 7:10 But to the married people I give charge–not I but the Lord–that the wife is not to separate from her husband.
1 Cor 7:11 But if she does [separate from and divorce him], let her remain single or else be reconciled to her husband. And [I charge] the husband [also] that he should not put away {or} divorce his wife.
A woman who divorces her husband, who is not born of the Spirit cannot marry another man while her ex-husband is still alive, therefore if a man who claims to be Christian lusts after (covets) her, he is coveting another man’s wife, which means he is committing adultery with her in his heart.
The New Testament makes it very clear that those who commit adultery will not inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Cor. 6:9 do you [those who are born from above (Christian)] not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators [prostitutes, anyone who has sex outside of marriage], nor idolaters [an image worshiper], nor adulterers [a man who is guilty with a married woman, a man who lusts after (covets) another man’s wife (Matt 5:28)], nor effeminate [a man who submits his body to unnatural lewdness], nor homosexuals [any person engaging in same-gender sexual activity],
1 Cor. 6:10 nor thieves [a thief in secret, rather than in the open with violence, an embezzler, a pilferer] nor {the} covetous [greedy of gain, a defrauder, trampling on the rights of others], nor drunkards, nor revilers [reproach (reviling) , injuring another’s reputation by denigrating, abusive insults] nor swindlers [a robber, an extortioner] will inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal. 5:19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality [fornication, whoredom, surrendering of sexual purity, any (every) type of promiscuity, sex outside of marriage], impurity [in a moral sense, the impurity of lustful, luxurious, profligate living], sensuality [lewdness],
Gal. 5:20 idolatry [image worship], sorcery [the practice of magical arts], enmities [hostility, hatred], strife [a contentious spirit, affection for dispute], jealousy [rivalry], outbursts of anger [anger that comes from the flesh, selfish anger], disputes [selfish rivalry, self-seeking], dissensions [divisions which wrongly divide people into pointless factions], factions [a self-chosen opinion, a religious or philosophical sect, discord or contention].
Gal. 5:21 envying [being glad when someone experiences misfortune or pain], murders [intentional unjustified homicide], drunkenness [deep drinking, intoxication] carousing [unbridled sexual immorality, debauched partying] and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
A woman who is divorced, before she is born of the Spirit, can marry another man.
Everything that happens before someone is born of the Spirit is erased after he or she is born of the Spirit, therefore if a woman is divorced before she is born of the Spirit that divorce is erased after she is born of the Spirit, and she can marry again, which means, if a man who claims to be Christian lusts after her, he does not commit adultery with her in his heart.
2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if anyone be in the Messiah [born of the Spirit], he or she is a new creation: old things have passed away, behold, all things are become new.
It’s a good thing for a man who is single to lust after a woman, because that shows the man who he wants a wife, as long as the woman who the man lusts after isn’t another man’s wife, the man doesn’t commit adultery.
In the world today there are many people who claim to be Christian that say, “a man who looks at ‘any’ woman to lust after her, commits adultery with her in his heart”, that teaching doesn’t agree with the Bible.
Matt 5:28 isn’t saying, “a man that looks at ‘any’ woman to lust after her commits adultery”, Matt 5:28 is saying, “any man that looks at another man’s wife to lust after (covet) her commits adultery.”
Lev 20:10 if a man commits adultery with another man’s wife, with the wife of his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.
Matt 5:28 whosoever looks at a woman [another man’s wife] to lust after [covet] her has committed adultery with her in his heart.
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bornfromabove7 — I wasn’t indicating that a man couldn’t be sexually attracted to his own partner. My point was that it is guilting a man who has those thoughts of another women, and sorry to say, that is a perfectly natural reaction, an evolutionary urge.
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Matt 5:28 in context says, if you look at another man’s wife to lust after her, you commit adultery, it doesn’t say if you look at woman that is not another man’s wife, you commit adultery
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A man single or married that looks at another man’s wife to lust after her (to covet her) commits adultery, that’s what Matt 5:28 in context is saying. It’s ok for a man that is single to lust after a woman, as long as the woman is not another man’s wife, the man does not commit adultery.
It’s normal for a man that is single to lust after a woman that is not another man’s wife because that shows the man that he desires a wife.
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bornfromabove7 — I mean no disrespect, but please read some science books. It’s normal for most men to look at a woman in a sexual way if he finds her sexually attractive, married or not. He might have an instinctual thought but that doesn’t mean he’s going to obsess over it or actually try to engage in sex.
They should not be shamed into believing that they’ve committed the same act as actually having sexual intercourse. Also, there’s a lot more going on, biologically, than just what the eye sees. It’s time for people to come out of the Iron/Bronze Age mentality.
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That’s not what it’s saying, Matt 5:28 is saying if a man lusts or covets (wants another man’s wife for himself) then he is committing adultery, if a man plans in his heart to have sex with another man’s wife, the man commits adultery with her in his heart, if you are not planning in your heart to have sex with another man’s wife, then you are not committing adultery, sexual desire for a Christian is not a bad thing as long as it does not lead to sex outside of marriage (fornication) or adultery
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“He might have an instinctual thought but that doesn’t mean he’s going to obsess over it or actually try to engage in sex.”
I agree with that, and that is not committing adultery, if a man obsesses or actually tries to have sex with another man’s wife, the man commits adultery, that’s what Matt 5:28 is saying.
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Neur-
It seems u missed the point. I could have just as easily said: ‘thou shalt not lie,’ as an example of ‘hearing a voice,’ the same way a note from your parents is ‘hearing a voice…’ etc
I think it is germaine to the argument here today. Try not to default ‘your religion,,,etc,’ totally unrelated to my points. 😉
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The real danger I see with people like Greg is the psychological harm their authoritarian religious indoctrination does to children, especially because their brains are not fully development. Children who put their full trust in adults to tell them the truth of their reality. Published in the British Association for Behavioral & Cognitive Psychotherapies, Dr. Marlene Winell writes:
And what’s really disheartening, as well as disconcerting, based on previous comments from previous posts, Greg appears to be completely desensitized to the point that he considers such teachings and “acts of god” as just and righteous. His god can do any damn thing he pleases, no matter how horrific. That makes people like Greg tribal, anti-human, inhumane, antisocial and indeed, a danger to the well being of our species.
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Yes Violet, I’m pretty sure I said that’s how you would respond. Lemme check…..
Yep there it is.
See, here’s the thing. It’s not that there’s sufficient evidence for my God already. It’s not that there’s very good evidence either. It’s not even that there’s overwhelming evidence. There is nothing BUT evidence. Everything except Himself was created BY Himself. From time, matter, light and space to the Higgs boson and everything in between. All of it bears His signature and fingerprint. Modern science is an ever expanding empirical catalog of His mind numbing magnificence and might. Remeber what I told Ruth:
Never has that been more true than today. God will not pose for your cameras. He will not perform tricks on command. He will not crawl into your Petri dish or spend one millisecond (if there were such a thing as time to Him) worrying about what you think. He holds your very breath of life in His sovereign hand and owes you exactly nothing. NAH-THING. If you live one more second it is because He has granted it to you. You are in NO position to bark out your insolent challenges and demands.
I wrote the above comment for Jesus. Like I do everything else in my life. What, if anything, He decides to do with it is up to Him. I am grateful that a brother like Colorstorm is blessed by it, but He’s not why I wrote it. If I find out at the judgement that even one syllable I have ever said here to anybody was used by Him to make a difference in someone’s life it will be my unspeakable joy. He loved me when I was utterly unlovable. All I care about is that when I am finally allowed to gaze into that beautiful glorious face, that I hear Him say: “well done my good and faithful servant”. (Matthew 25)
Carmen, I don’t hear “voices”. God speaks definitively and with absolute clarity in the ancient Christian scriptures. And yes, there is HYOOOJ essential agreement among all truly born again people living His life about what those scriptures say.
Nobody loves people more than I do either. I don’t see Victoria as a vulnerable mark and potential notch in my belt as Violet so very erroneously alleges. I see her as a fellow child of Adam who has been hurt, is hurting, and is using woefully sinful and disastrous means to run from that pain. It doesn’t make me angry. It tears my heart out 😦
Let’s settle this once and for all. Any person claiming to use force or violence in Jesus name is a liar and no Christian. They would be operating in DIRECT disobedience to the clearest of NEW covenant principles. Muslims committing violence in the name of their false and imaginary god are acting in direct OBEDIENCE TO their false, imaginary and blasphemous scriptures. Now did ya get that? Violence in Christianity is FORBIDDEN for religious purposes (self defense, law enforcement and just war are another long story before one of you sharp people brings that up). Violence in Islam is COMMANDED for religious purposes. See? FORBIDDEN. COMMANDED. If this is in any way unclear, I will make every reasonable attempt to clarify until Ruth answers me in the other thread. She gets priority.
I have church for the next several hours and will not be around much.
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God will not pose for your cameras. He will not perform tricks on command.
And yet we’re told that this same Middle Eastern god you’re talking about happily performed the Altar Challenge, and what about those neat tricks he did for Moses in front of Pharaoh? And why hide when this same Middle Eastern god met with seventy men…
“Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went up and saw the God of Israel. Under his feet was something like a pavement made of lapis lazuli, as bright blue as the sky.” (Exodus 24:9-10)
Seems you’re worshiping a different god, Greg….
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John,
Tiribulus’ seeming infinite patience with all your folk’s ridicule is the modern day version of the Alter Challenge.
My goodness, if Tiribulus wasn’t Protestant, the pope would probably canonize him a saint on that miracle alone!
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SOM-
Great observation and connection w/ the challenge and patience
Well done.
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silenceofmind on November 9, 2014 at 4:47 pm said:
silenceofmind says:” John,
Tiribulus’ seeming infinite patience with all your folk’s ridicule is the modern day version of the Alter Challenge.
My goodness, if Tiribulus wasn’t Protestant, the pope would probably canonize him a saint on that miracle alone!”
********************************************************************************
Colorstorm says:
SOM-
Great observation and connection w/ the challenge and patience
Well done.”
You men are too kind and honor me far beyond my worth. Praise God for His merciful sovereign grace.
John says “Seems you’re worshiping a different god, Greg….”
Seems your bible knowledge is regrettably not improving John. This really is not your thing.
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I like the way you constantly avoid addressing what was put to you.
Are you, Greg, denying that Yhwh pulled some tricks for Moses in front of Pharaoh? Are you denying it performed on cue with the altar challenge?
Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t you write: “God will not pose for your cameras. He will not perform tricks on command?
So Greg, will you, or won’t you do the altar challenge? You either believe you’re on the right track, or you don’t, correct? Your god does perform tricks to prove itself, your book says so in black and white.
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GOD sent MOSES. Moses was under God’s explicit command which he originally did not want to fulfill. Not the other way around. Get a clue. That will require actual study.
I am not at liberty to presume to call fire from the Lord without His commission to do so. Yes I reject your blasphemous and arrogant and demand.
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Elijah wasn’t ordered by Yhwh to do the altar challenge. That was his doing, and Yhwh performed on cue.
Your god does tricks to prove itself, Greg. It’s a little lame, isn’t it, but I think he’d perform for you too… If you really believed. I mean, it wouldn’t leave you standing out there all alone, would it?
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First verse of chapter 18.
“After many days the word of the Lord came to Elijah…”
The story of the “altar challenge” was in the context of King Ahab’s weak leadership and his tolerance of Jezebel’s Baal worship. YES, God DID commission the “altar challenge”. Please find a better mistake to make now if you would. I’ve wasted enough time on this one.
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You’re clutching at straws there, i’m afraid, Greg…. filling in some rather large gaps in the information with your own imagination, I think 🙂
When we look at Moses little circus act, your Middle Eastern god tells Moses specifically what tricks he’s going to do. It’s there in black and white. He lays it out in detail. “Moses, do this, and I’ll do this… Shazam!!!” Nothing of the sort is mentioned to Elijah, is it? No. “The word of the Lord came to Elijah…” says nothing.
So, we have a god, your particular Middle Eastern god, who performs tricks to prove itself. It performs these tricks for people like Elijah, who invented his own challenge, the altar challenge all by himself. No coaching.
Now, I think a god who has to perform circus tricks to prove itself is stunningly pathetic, but hey, there it is.
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Neuro-
Whosoever will,
and to whom it may concern:
I am sorry u had such a traumatic experience with ‘christianity.’ Many have not. Suicide would be an unbearable cross to carry. I knew a man who ran over his 2 year old daughter and everybody thought he was a drunk. Carrying the false accusations of a lifetime was more painful than the accident which was purely forgivable.
That said, God’s word has no defect. The defects are in people; they are in the proud, the foolish, the profane, the skeptic, the mocker, the infidel, the religious hypocrite, they are in me, and they are in you. Sin caused this problem.
I would be foolish to say that all atheists are thieves, because one was a corporate embezzler. Yet, you paint a picture of trauma with ALL who make a profession of faith. You should extend a broader courtesy, for it appears your bitterness and hatred for anything of faith has clouded your reason. Proof?
Sure. You just accused Tirib of being antisocial. This may seem petty to you, but it proves your judgment is a tad off, for you know this is flatly untrue. A job, friends, daily commerce, talking to you, yea all antisocial.
If a thousand people had a thousand different interpretations of the scriptures, God is still blameless, and it only proves a thousand people are careless thinkers and readers. God is perfect, and He is not on trial. One reason there are so many varying opinions is easy: the heart is not right.
You ask continually, you and your brethren, for ‘proof,’ or an explanation of God’s actions, yet you do not use the same standard when dealing with your fellow man. You give people the right to make decisions in their own home, and defend them, yet you question God for the actions he makes with his own earth. See the contradiction?
No amount of ‘proof’ will ever satisfy. Btw, I have asked before: where can you go that is distinctly yours? Where can you go that is REALLY your place? Correct, nowhere, for in Him, we live, move, and have our being.
The ruling on the field stands. God and His word are perfect. Man is imperfect.
(no, there was no bait taken 😉
http://thenakedtruth2.wordpress.com/2014/09/27/2857/
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Hello again, Colorstorm,
“That said, God’s word has no defect.”
This clearly tells me you haven’t studied. Not really. Go outside your bible. Learn how it all came together and why. Educate the backgrounds of the reformers and their characters. Learn about all the embellishments, omissions, copying errors, forgeries, anonymous writers, and open some science books. Educate yourself about our biology, sociology, neurology, psychology, archeology, primatology, and perhaps you might see that the god, Yahweh, you say is the creator of the universe, knew nothing about creation.
The word of god, your bible, is based on myth and has been know for decades now by distinguished scholars and conservative rabbis. The first five bibles are fiction — fables, borrowed from past mythological gods. That affects the credibility Jesus and Paul. Now, once you’ve invested as many years studying these subjects as I and others have, and you still call your bible “god’s word”, with no defect, then I would suggest that you most definitely have deactivated neural circuitry associated with critical assessment.
“I am sorry u had such a traumatic experience with ‘christianity.’ Many have not.”
As I mentioned earlier, I stayed a devout believer for close to 20 years after the death of my partner. I also had some very good times as a Christian, which played a role in my staying for so long. But, Colorstorm, I actually had the courage to step outside of my comfort zone and dare to question.
As far as calling Greg antisocial. I’ll repeat — anyone who teaches children about hell, to not question authority, to not think critically, to deny their empathic instincts, believes that a god is just who wills and allowd enormous suffering, commits genocide, condones, performs and command horrific crimes against humanity, is, IMO, antisocial. You can’t sugarcoat the madness of your Yahweh, no matter how much you try.
Btw, thank you for your condolences. Now open some science books and try to grasp reality.
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Neur-
Hi-always a pleasure even in opposition-
You make assumptions though . Do u know anything of my research? Decades of learning?
Have u a clue as to my investigative prowess regarding findings which led me to incontrovertably conclude that there are NO defects in God’s word? That’s ok, i won’t hold it against u.
If u and I come to opposing viewpoints, we both can be wrong, but we both cannot be right. I asked a fellow some time ago to study the geneologies in Matthew 1 and Luke 3. He refused.
Kind of important wouldn’t ya say? Many a man has tried to find a mistake in the account, but lo and behold, simply bowed in awe at such accuracy, preservation, and spiritual power.
There is no other book on earth that has been met with more resistance, and whereby men have tried to bury the contents, looking for loopholes and flaws, only to find out there are none, for the written word and the living word are One. God has no imperfections..
The flaws are in they who try to undermine a God in heaven. That’s fine too, no one has been successful to date.
As to your request to engage all other sciences. yep, at the end of the day, they all affirm the truth of scripture.
Btw, where do u suppose the word ‘male and ‘female’ came from? Hmmmmmm?
Do you know that God was the first mathemetician? Yep, arithmetic is perfect, just like Him.
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for the written word and the living word are One. God has no imperfections
Exodus 20:5 “You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God”
So, jealousy is a form of “perfection,” huh?
Interesting…..
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Hi
jZ
Well friend, His ways are obviously not your ways. A flaw in a diamond is not a perfect diamond now is it.
Which means you need a better grasp on what ‘jealousy” means here.
Hint: it’s easy to figure out.
But the ruling on the field stands: God is perfect,.and in all his ways.
Just to nip it in the bud, He needs not explain to you why he does this or that. Who are you? 😉
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Ah, creative hermeneutics! I love it!!!
“This “jealousy” isn’t like the “jealousy” you’re talking about, oh no, never…..” LOL!
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Great comment Colorstorm. I call this the ‘supernatural trump card’ and know all is the right with religion when you resort so quickly to using it.
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Well VW-
Just thought of it, because its true 😉
This is a no brainer,
Things are so much easier when u look at things from heavens point of view.
I’m glad jZ brought this up, it’s quite worth pondering.
And once more, man is proved to be the miscreant, as if God needs to explain Himself to an ant farm 😉
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More info here: https://violetwisp.wordpress.com/2013/04/27/supernatural-trump-card/
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“Do you know that God was the first mathemetician? Yep, arithmetic is perfect, just like Him.”
Really, did your god tell you this? Do you hear voices in your head from your god? Why don’t you tell us where male and female came from Colorstorm. Let me guess, the bible told you so, right?
Here’s how I feel. Believe if you must. I have no issue with people needing to believe in a god to cope with uncertainty, death anxiety, etc. But leave the anti-human, anti-live, authoritarian crap out of it. Stop teaching children about hell. Stop teaching them to not question authority, or discourage critical thinking skills, and stop shaming them for having natural urges, and encourage sex education and birth control. Stop pressuring them to get married early because research shows that this is the number one cause of divorce.
You’re getting lots of dopamine (reward neurotransmitter), and without neurochemical reward you wouldn’t believe. Nope, notta. The belief that you are being acknowledged by the alpha male ape has a neurochemically rewarding effect. We see this in primate studies where primates will give up a cherry juice reward to view pictures of dominant alpha males. Why did they give up a cherry juice reward? Because they got more dopamine from looking at images of dominant alpha males. The same hits like having sex, taking hard drugs, eating lots of sugar and fats. But some people can get addicted to that dopamine, even those who are religious. Also, hyper-religiosity is the main feature of many common neurological disorders. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16439158
Let’s take one of the most common neurological disorders, non-convulsive temporal lobe epilepsy:
So, how do you discern? That’s just one neurological disorder that causes people to become very religious and think they are “special” and “chosen”. Up to 10,000 people in America, annually, become hyper-religious from just this one neurological disorder.
That’s not including OCD, mania, schizophrenia, and other neurological disorders. Again, that’s up to 10,000 (in one country) from just one neurological disorder, every year. You do the math. How do you know that who ever witnessed to you wasn’t just such a person? Or your preacher, or those who wrote the manuscripts within bible? How do you know you’re not one of them. According to studies:
Neuro–
I feel worthy of all your time and attention 🙂
but you are working way too hard to justify your unbelief.
Suggesting there is somehow a chemical imbalance or defect that enables the brain to engage in faith is amusing, really.
You may want to revisit my posts to you, and take a peek at how you have tossed ancillary issues in return, as a possible decoy or as a springboard for your views.
But I will not castigate you as being mentally defective or brain challenged. Have you ever read the prayers of Kind David or Solomon?
Please do so, and tell me with all candor, if these men were cerebrally challenged, Be honest.
Let’s assume in your world man came to be from a turnip or rock, or lima bean, or whatever.
My question to you was not HOW male and female came to be, lets assume for a sec neither of us know; what I wanted u to consider was: what mechanism was put in place, and HOW is it, that the WORD —-male/female—- came to be understood UNIVERSALLY as the identity for the sexes?
As far as arithmetic, 24 hr days, 7 day week, this is easy.
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As far as arithmetic, 24 hr days, 7 day week, this is easy.
Interesting, considering only 350 million years ago an earth year was 385 days. I guess your god changed its mind…. 😉
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“Suggesting there is somehow a chemical imbalance or defect that enables the brain to engage in faith is amusing, really. But I will not castigate you as being mentally defective or brain challenged.”
Colorstorm, I cannot possibly cram 20+ years of extensive studying in a few posts. I did not have a chemical imbalance or a neurological disorder as a believer, and I’m not saying you did either. I was indoctrinated from early childhood, in a Christian culture. Study neuroplasticity. My brain was rewired to believe in the Christian god, and my culture reinforced this. Had you been born in Saudi Arabia you’d being bowing to Allah most likely, or if in India, the Monkey god.
All I’m asking is for you to use a little common sense. Surely you can comprehend that how you were raised will affect what you believe. I have read the Bible many times, and as I mentioned, had one of my bibles rebound 3 times. But, I also studied other books beside the bible, and if you spend your whole life reinforcing those neuropathways with one book, you are going to see that book as the truth and your whole world view will be centered around that book.
You can’t possible say that the bible is advanced. It is a Iron/Bronze Age collection of manuscripts full of embellishments, omissions, forgeries, anonymous writers, and contradictions out the wazoo. It’s a Iron/Bronze Age book written for a Iron/Bronze age.
As far as the origin of the names of male/female, are you suggesting that Yahweh came us with those names? Please show me proof besides your bible. Are you a New Creationists?
“Have you ever read the prayers of Kind David or Solomon?”
Fairy tales for adults. It’s a myth. David gets turned on by another man’s wife, gets her knocked up, then sends Bathsheba’s husband to the front lines of battle, ensuring this death. Your god gets pissed and kills David’s kid shortly after birth. Way to go Yahweh. Nice god you serve there, Colorstorm. Solomon “knew” around 1000 women. He couldn’t keep his dick in his pants. Are you seriously expecting me to get excited over this? Talk about a soap opera, lol.
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N℮üґ☼N☮☂℮ṧ: “Study neuroplasticity. My brain was rewired to believe in the Christian god, and my culture reinforced this. Had you been born in Saudi Arabia you’d being bowing to Allah most likely, or if in India, the Monkey god.”
Even I know enough about “neuroplasticity” to know that it’s true of ANYthng somebody is exposed to long enough. Claiming that the brain changes when somebody is taught and embraces Christianity is proof of nothing. Saying it changes negatively is an opinion. If one of your homeys were to look for it, I’m sure your study of neuroplasticity would itself show up in their study of neuroplasticity in YOUR brain. It’s like saying that an object leaves an impression in clay. Of course it does.
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Like I told you Greg, you are reinforcing those neural pathways every day with every thought you have of your belief system. You are even doing it without conscious awareness — internal dialogs going on which also reinforce these pathways and networks. Now, originally, you were most likely witnessed to when you became “born again”, but now you are fully responsible for rewiring and indoctrinating your brain. You!
Believe what ever floats your boat and gets you through this life, so long as you don’t hurt others. But authoritarian, conservative religion does a great disservice to our species and where you see conservative, authoritarian religion, dysfunction thrives.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-secular-life/201410/secular-societies-fare-better-religious-societies
Conservatives parents tend to teach their children to obey. Secular parents tend to teach their children to think.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-secular-life/201409/obedience-or-thinking-oneself
My only concern is that you want to share your hellish, authoritarian indoctrination with children, even sugarcoat genocide. It is psychological abuse and can and does cause brain atrophy.
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Neur-
Without a standard, then I suppose he who with the cleverest imagination wins the day. And conversely, he with the standard, can see where all beliefs fall short,
So then, what ‘level’ are you using that you may know you are on track? For certainly, your beliefs come and go, subject to the next revelation of thought.
My standard? The Word of God of course, that gives definition to all systems under the sun. No other source like it. It’s truths do not change.
You say if a person was raised elsewhere, then he would follow the belief of that place. Really? So the god of India competes with the god of Turkey?
That’s quite an indictment of all false gods, but the God of Creation has no competitor, and He proves it with His rainbow in the sky of India and Turkey. He wins the challenge without competing.
The God of Noah is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; you see, He is the God of the living.
What you fail to see Neuro- is the fact that man is not advancing in thought, but regressing. 2nd law of thermodynamics kind of thing.
Even the stellar Isamov opined: can entropy be reversed? You mock the ‘Bronze age’ etc, but I dare say the world has seen no equal of architectural majesty in Solomons temple alone.
No power tools, but the miters, cornices, copings, were of a skill Bob Vila could only envy. You may want to reconsider the achievements of the past
But the bottom line which your advanced school of thought dismisses?
Only the word of God correctly gives definition as to the effects of sin which brings death. And because of this truth, the WHOLE creation groans.
You are groaning now, and you do not see it..
😉
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Colorstorm,
Your discourse is churchy. Pure indoctrination. I could recite it in my sleep. Even though it’s been a decade since my deconversion, reading what you write is so scripted, so familiar, so much like puppeteer rhetoric, and I’m embarrassed that I once was completely trusting and gullible.
I used to believe like you, truly I did. In all honestly, my leaving Christianity came about by accident as I was seeking answers to questions I had about human behavior and why the god of the bible was so silent about it; why many of the practices in the bible actually created the very social ills that it claims it’s eliminating if you just follow the rules. No true.
The more I sought those answers the more it became apparent to me that the god of the bible had the education and behavior of an Iron/Bronze age war god. Sure, there might have been some magnificent structures in that age — built by slaves (condoned in your bible), but the societies were tribal, brutish, and constantly warring. You can see these same magnificent structures in other cultures who worshiped other gods.
The hub of 3 mainstream religions, Judaism, Christian and Islam have yet to learn how to get along, and have always been at war. To make matters worse, they have spread their dysfunction throughout the world, especially Christianity and Islam.
So my journey was not one I had intended to set out to disprove god. But the evidence of Yahweh’s lack of understanding of humans, biologically, neurologically, and psychologically, is staggering. What the war god did understand was that if you scare the chit out of people, and instill doctrine like eternal damnation, and tap into their most primitive emotion, fear, people will submit and obey.
But, that leads to all kinds of social ills and we have significant evidence of this. You have romanticized your god. That’s understandable. I did too, for 40 years. You are in love, and studies show that when you are in love, neural circuitry associated with critical judgement and negative emotions (towards that person or god) is deactivated. It is not an accident that scripture associates Jesus as a groom, and his followers to a bride. They may have not know much about neurotransmitters involved in attachment, such as oxytocin, vasopressin and dopamine, but they certainly understood certain behavior via observation.
You see, Colorstorm, your god is a jealous god.
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Neur-
jZ
Scripted? familiar? churchy? puppet like? You are not being honest,
And I notice u do not address my posts.
But I can also assure you, u have ‘never’ believed like I do. That would be an insult to you and I.
Indoctrination? Hmmmm. Well, I repeat, we are all somebody’s fool. I am a fool for Christ’s sake. Whose fool are you?
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I am nobody’s fool, and I am ever learning, but I do not claim to know all the answers like you and Greg seemingly do.
I did address your posts. You simply refuse to acknowledge any data or opinion, backed by scientific sources, that does not line up to your worldview based on an archaic book..
You’ve surrendered your life to a belief system; a book strategically put together by people with agendas and/or had a neurological disorder with symptoms of hyper-religiosity.
http://neuro.psychiatryonline.org/doi/abs/10.1176/appi.neuropsych.11090214
“Sudden Religious Conversion” is a clinical term. It’s an experience, a common symptom of certain neurological disorders.
Click to access Dewhurst-Beard-2003.pdf
All I ask, if you need to believe to behave, to cope with death anxiety and uncertainty, don’t preach to people, and especially children about the inhumane parts in the bible attributed to your authoritarian god, and claim it to be ethical and righteous.
Don’t shame children, telling them they are sinful creatures in need of redemption or they will go to hell. We have significant evidence that adverse childhood experiences (toxic stress) leads to disease and early death. Don’t discourage them from questioning authority or the book you have allowed yourself to be indoctrinated by.
Otherwise, we’re good.
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Neuro-
I’ll just choose to ignore this rather condescending charge.
😉
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Colorstorm, there’s nothing more condensending than to assume you have all the answers laid out in one archaic book that has spawned at least 42,001 sects of Christianity, all claiming to have “the” truth.
I apologize if you feel offended, but that’s how you come across.
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Sez Neuro-
———–Don’t shame children, telling them they are sinful creatures in need of redemption or they will go to hell. We have significant evidence that adverse childhood experiences (toxic stress) leads to disease and early death. Don’t discourage them from questioning authority or the book you have allowed yourself to be indoctrinated by.—————
I’m not offended friend, but this is condescending, Telling me what or what not to do-
You can tell the youngsters whatever u want— see the difference???
I can’t speak for the shortcomings of others, but please do confuse arrogance with confidence.
“I know whom i have believed.and am persuaded.’
On the other hand, it is supremely arrogant to be a tresspasser on earth without giving credence to the owner. just sayin.
No need to apologize tho 😉
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“You can tell the youngsters whatever u want— see the difference??? ”
Colorstorm, I do not abuse children. If you are telling them they are sinful, shameful creatures in need of redemption — and that your “loving” god created a hell for them and send them there if they don’t behave, then that’s child abuse. As I explained earlier, we have extensive, peer-reviewed studies showing that adverse childhood experiences (toxic stress) places adults at a significant risk for disease and early death, not to mention brain atrophy.
See the difference?
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Neur-
Tkx for this. Not ‘all’ bring the message you suggest.
One must be careful what he puts in the mouth of a child to digest. I can not help it if people fed little ones steak when they needed farina.
The concept of hell is such a small place in scripture, it hardly needs mentioned even now to you.
But how about: ‘follow after what is right, just and good,’ ‘don’t lie,’ ‘don’t steal.’ .”honour your parents.’
Aside from the truancy of people who don’t know Genesis from Revolution, (pun intended) it still leaves God innocent of all charges, and the onus is always on mankind whether he takes heed.
I do agree with you though, that many a man, and woman have said things to children ‘in the name of the Lord,’ which was really in the name of themselves.
And this answers your concern as to why there a bazillion denominations; men want to be somebody.
I like good apples, I have no use for the rotten ones.
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World renowned psychologist, Philip Zimbardo once said: “It’s not the bad apples, it’s the barrel”.
I don’t see a problem with the prosocial teachings in the Bible, but Jesus brought nothing new to humanity.
I see a huge problem when this god, Yahweh, who is a jealous god, is not bound by moral / ethical teachings he’s given the credit for.
Yahweh: ‘If I tell you to kill and steal, you better do it.’ Numbers 31
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Yep, those Midianites were seriously bad apples 😉
As to your world renowned fellow, when he can create a barrel of wood using nothing…………he would have every right to perjure the barrel; since he can’t, I’m stickin with the apples, and He who made the tree and the wood..
But u mentioned something troubling: ‘Jesus brought nothing new to humanity.’ hmmmm
This may have shown your colors here friend, for why oh why would u be attracted to someone like this in the first place? Extremely puzzling.
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Why would I be attracted to Jesus? Because, for the most part, he emulates the intrinsic caring nature of a nurturing mother or partner/lover who had a healthy balance of bonding hormones.
“You shall suck the milk of nations; you shall nurse at the breast of kings.” 1 Peter 2:2
Symbolically, Jesus represents the empathic nature of humanity, not divinity.
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1 Peter 2.2 reads thus:
As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
I’m sorry Neur- I have no clue what your reference is. The text speaks plainly of the scriptures as proper guidance for spiritual growth.
As a matter of fact, you brought up here what I was telling u earlier, about giving babies proper food…..
A good parent knows the right food. Conversely, a lot of bad parenting ………
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Come on Colorstorm, surely you can’t be that unlearned and naive. Mammals have the same capacity for nurture, caring and empathy, and yet they have no book. For some odd reason you are of the opinion that empathy is some new revelation that Jesus brought to humanity some 2,000 years ago. LOL
Please, will you read something other than a bible, the sake of the well being of humanity?
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Neuro-
Why cite a book that you mock, which in return condemns you for trifling with its contents?
We should be so flattered that you devote a lifetime in trying to prove its insignificance. Hmmmmm. Let’s see now. What can one deduce here? Let me count the ways…..
😉
‘Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools…’ You are at a disadvantage Neuro- but that’s ok, If you knew the scriptures, then God would not be shining His light on your back….
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Colorstorm, you are far more transparent that you may realize. I cited the scriptures because that is the only language you seem to relate to.
It’s time to get out of those training pants, take off the training wheels of your bike, and throw the pacifier away. Grow up and read some educational books.
If you need to attend church and read a bible day in and day out to remind you how to behave, then perhaps you need to see a behavioral therapist.
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I’m pretty sure male and female just derive from older Latin words! Not to mention that other languages have other words male/female, so it seems odd to imply that there is something special about those words.
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Console–
tkx, but there is something special, that’s the point.
The obvious id indicting.
WHO gave the derivation of the sexes? In other words, ‘This shall be called male, and this female?’
WHO said ‘this is a man, and THIS shall be called woman?
You know someone took credit for the word ‘selfie,’ someone coined ‘twerking,’ etc. follow the bread crumbs, so its a fair question wouldn’t ya think?
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Uhm, William Tyndale?
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Good try Console, would u like geography for 200? lol
God gave the designation of male and female, but Adam gave the designation woMAN to his wife.
If anybody cares, now u know the rest of the story………………….;)
All things have a beginning. To you who disagree, let us hear your version, but it will be difficult to top the authority of scripture.
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Whoops, the one of left of “/” is neqebah, while the one on the right is zakar.
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No . . . G-d gave the designation זָכָר/נְקֵבָה (zakar/neqebah), not the WORDS man/woman.
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Hey Consolo-
Another mark of inspiration of the English bible wouldn’t ya say…
The point is, that Adam named his mate, as distinct from himself. In any language, it is understood.
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Why would translating Hebrew into English be an example of inspiration?
Why do you feel Adam naming his Eve to be an important point? In proving what exactly?
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No . . . G-d gave the designation זָכָר/נְקֵבָה (zakar/neqebah), not the WORDS man/woman.
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” I don’t see Victoria as a vulnerable mark and potential notch in my belt as Violet so very erroneously alleges. I see her as a fellow child of Adam who has been hurt, is hurting, and is using woefully sinful and disastrous means to run from that pain. It doesn’t make me angry. It tears my heart out.”
Greg, I see this as projection on your part. You haven’t a clue what I feel. I didn’t leave Christianity because I’d been hurt. I stayed in the faith close to 20 years after my husband committed suicide, and as you know, he did because he believed of BS people like you continue to spout. He didn’t seek the necessary help because rather than being counseled to seek a mental health professional due to his hallucinations caused by a traumatic brain injury, he was told by people like you that he was experiencing “spiritual warfare”.
I studied my way out of Christianity, like most of us did. But I’ll wager that in 1984 or before, something happened to you that left you vulnerable enough to buy into this anti-human doctrine. I was indoctrinated from childhood. What’s your excuse?
You, apparently, experienced some life-event that caused you to run from reality and buy into this authoritarian nonsense. So tell us, Greg, what pain and/or trauma did you run from?
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Actually my life was on a distinct upswing by your standards when I met Jesus Victoria. I’d been clean and sober for a year and a half, had a decent job and my own place. Things were lookin up.
What was the last church you were in before you forsook Christianity?
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Greg, did you have a sudden religious conversion?
The last church I was in was a bible-believing, independent Protestant church with around 400 to 500 active members. It was less conservative church than the other mainstream, Protestant churches I’d been involved in. But I was already on my way out of organized religion. This was a transitional church.
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My conversion was happening since I was born.
Is there a website for your former church?
I have to be gone again for a couple hours AND start work on Ruth’s response (and some other stuff). I’m not ignoring you.
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My conversion was happening since I was born.
LOL — I think just answered my question and it wasn’t the answer you gave. 😉
“Is there a website for your former church?”
That was over 14 or 15 years ago and I don’t remember the name of the church. I wasn’t there long. As I mentioned, it was a transitional church and shortly after joining I moved out of state. It was your typical bible-believing (cherry picking) church but preached the positive message of Christ and didn’t promote the teaching of hell and damnation. Certainly not badass enough for you. 😉
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The time difference makes this somewhat tougher. 😦 Ruth is back. Sorry, I knwo you’re heartbroken, but later, she gets priority. As I said.
HERE is one of my all time heroes of the faith. In case anybody is interested. Aside from being fluent in 7 languages this man also held abuncha degrees too. Dutch was his first language, so his English wasn’t always that great. Not only a man who taught graduate level philosophy and apologetics for 43 years, he was also a warrior of conservative orthodoxy AND a faithful evangelist and preacher until his death at 93 in 1987.
I am an intellectual and spiritual pygmy compared to him.
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Victori says: “Like I told you Greg, you are reinforcing those neural pathways every day with every thought you have of your belief system. You are even doing it without conscious awareness — internal dialogs going on which also reinforce these pathways and networks.”
Like I told you Victoria, you are reinforcing those neural pathways every day with every thought you have of your belief system. You are even doing it without conscious awareness — internal dialogs going on which also reinforce these pathways and networks.
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The difference is, Greg, I’m not involved in or promoting an unethical, authoritarian belief system that’s psychologically abusive to children (and adults); nor am I reinforcing a doctrine that leads to tribalism, social dysfunction, fear, and a significant possibility of brain atrophy (hippocampus) later in life.
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Poppycock. You have no basis for telling me that 1+1 is certainly 2 or that ANY of your research means ANYthing like what you think it means, OR that it has ANY meaning at all. To say nothing of ANYthing ethical. I say again. You are robbing your God’s intellectual bank in order to finance your campaign against him. Knock it off.
Time for church soon. I have some neural pathways to build.
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Greg,
“Denial ain’t just a river in Egypt.” ~Mark Twain
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At the end of the days I, Nebuchadnezzar, lifted my eyes to heaven, and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High, and praised and honored him who lives forever,
for his dominion is an everlasting dominion,
and his kingdom endures from generation to generation;
all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing,
and he does according to his will among the host of heaven
and among the inhabitants of the earth;
and none can stay his hand
or say to him, “What have you done?”
—King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon—
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Victoria said to Colorstorm ABOVE “it’s been a decade since my deconversion.”
and then after my question about her last church said:
THIS “That was over 14 or 15 years ago”
Nobody typos the word “decade” or two double digit numbers in a row. There is a 40 to 50% time difference here. It is not possible for me to refrain from asking what is going here.
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LOL — you are clearly clueless about the deconversion process.. Do you think it just happens over night? It’s not like a “sudden religious conversion”, ya know? 😉
I was still going to church 14 or 15 years ago. As I mentioned, I was on my way out of Christianity. I was fully deconvered around 10 years ago.
Do you understand now?
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Thank you.
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Colorstorm –
For testimonies from young people who have grown up with the idea that they are shameful creatures who would go to hell if they didn’t behave, and were forced to revere a supernatural being, you really ought to read some of the stories on Homeschoolers Anonymous – you’ll see first-hand what that doctrine has done to them.
* spoiler alert * – most of them have rejected not only their parents (and their toxic doctrine) but the christian god (and the mythological book I refer to as my “Least Favourite Fiction”) who inspired such.
Your remark to Neuronotes about condescension is supremely ironic, by the way.
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Carmen says: “shameful creatures who would go to hell if they didn’t behave,”
Mahatma Gandhi is probably in the same hell that Adolf Hitler is probably in and Jeffery Dahmer is probably in heaven. The difference is the blood of Jesus Christ. NO sin is more powerful than that blood and good woks without it only the make the flames of hell hotter.
There are two kinds of people on this earth. Those who have been born dead and damned in the first man Adam (that’s everybody except Jesus) and those who have been born again into new life in the last. (that’s all those so eternally elected out of the first group by the Father and given to His Son) (John 6, Romans 5 and 1st Corinthians 15)
At bottom, it really is that simple.
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NO sin is more powerful than that blood and good woks without it only the make the flames of hell hotter.
I mean this in all seriousness: I truly hope you have no contact whatsoever with children.
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Well, Trib – I believe there’s no such place as hell, but if you really and truly believe – with your heart and your head – that JD belongs in heaven it says more about you than it does about me. And not good things about you, I would add. Now, if you have some support on this blog from people who also have that fantasy in THEIR minds, I hold the same opinion about them.
Give me good people who DO GOOD THINGS everyday rather than people like you who BELIEVE nonsense. They are the ones I hold in great esteem.
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Wow, we’ve really come down to the nuts and bolts of your embarrassingly awful belief system. This is the ‘Truth’ that you’ve been banging on about? My respect for you as a sadly indoctrinated human being like so many others, has just plummeted through the floorboards.
Your personal Christian belief system is arrogantly repulsive and lacking in even the most basic notion of compassion or justice. I do actually feel sorry for you, all condescension intended. I hope that in your religious journey, you never find deconversion, because your most basic sense of morality is so skewed that you probably do need some rules found in the Bible to keep you in line.
There is a nice way to be a Christian, that reflects something of the loving part of the message that can be cherry picked from the Bible. Join the Quakers or something, and open your mind.
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Never seen you so pissed off!
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Hehe, not pissed off, just shocked that anyone could have such vile views. It kind of offends my memory of the benevolent being I used to believe existed!
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The beliefs some people have may just leave you speechless
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Not me. I always have sumthin to say 😉
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Am sure you must, you are in the group with fringe beliefs
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HAHA!! Fringe he says. I’ll say it one more time. My EXACT beliefs were openly affirmed by 44 of the 55 delegates to the first constitutional convention of the United States. They’re not even unheard of now. I can prove both. Your friend Ruth rightly recognized that herself.
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More than one billion people believe Mo went to heaven then Jerusalem and back to Mecca on a pegasus in one night, does this become fact because it is believed by many people?
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“Fringe” is what you said. Not “false”, see? Whether true or not, in the western world, my views are not fringe and never have been,
You need to start serving better snacks or sumthin Violet. You attract some really terrible debaters over here. Is this a neuroplasticity thing?
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Snacks would surely do for I am sure you need them more than I.
Your world views are fringe unless you are using a different definition for fringe.
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Violet, in case you hadn’t read it in your other post, where your title quotes Greg — “There’s no such thing as deconversion” — he states to Ruth:
“Tiribulus Replies: “The cross of Christ was not plan B to fix Adam’s fall into sin. Adam’s fall into sin was so that there could BE a cross of Christ. That was always His intent”
His comment to Carmen — the numerous other comments he’s made in your previous posts — his belief system — his mindset — are demonstrated in this video. Sadly, he’s not the only one who thinks like this.
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Yeah, I kind of switched off from those long rambling comments that led from the 1 plus 1 discussion, so I guess I hadn’t got the true measure of Greg’s belief system. I think he takes it beyond the basic arrogant disinterest in other human lives at the expense of his own ‘specialness’ – he seems to be kind of revelling in the thrill of such vile belief.
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Ok, this was a typical dime a dozen exercise in emotional self worshiping humanistic idolatry.
YOU ARE NOT THE STANDARD FOR GOOD AND EVIL!
You do not get to tell a God who commands light and matter to exist from nothing and who sustains them every second by the Word of his power what is moral or just or not. His nature is the standard for holiness and righteousness. His glory is the purpose for all that is and yes all that suffering, which is the result of death in sin, brings glory to His name. And furthermore. HIS glory and honor IS the highest good and which is served by His decree and providence over His creation.
The only alternative you offer anyway is pure random meaningless death and suffering. In HIS universe, which is the one you live in, ALL has purpose. It is YOUR arrogant and twisted mindset that prefers truly despairing chaos over evil having a good and holy purpose. In fact evil itself has no definition without a supra human court beyond which there is no appeal.
Your other videos were much better than this one Victoria. This is pure emotionalism which produces nothing except… well… more pure emotionalism. It is Christians who offer hope and meaning to the people in this video.
I covered ALL of this in my very first comment on this site. There IS NO moral or philosophical problem of evil, or theodicy as it has been called, for the Christian who understands the Godhood of his God. That’s a roman catholic contrivance smuggled into the church from the ancient Greeks. The fact that so many protestants fall into it is not my fault.
God is entirely unimpressed with your view of ANYthing. I say again. Your next breath and your next heartbeat are HIS. IF He grants them to you. He will not be looking you up for advice on what to do with His creation. Repent. Before it’s too late. Forsake this insolent self worshiping life and live.
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Victoria says: “To think in this way is to fail to reason honestly, or to care sufficiently about the suffering of other human beings”
Both false. You just have no idea Victoria. Aside from lying to them about Christianity, what do YOU do to alleviate the suffering of others?
I’m also not the one running from 1+1 equaling 2.
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“Both false. You just have no idea Victoria. Aside from lying to them about Christianity, what do YOU do to alleviate the suffering of others?”
Let me ask you something Greg. When you are helping people, do you hit them over the head with your bible? In other words, can you care for others and meet what ever need they have without proselytizing? Studies show that unbelievers and the least religious tend to be more compassionate and generous.
http://newscenter.berkeley.edu/2012/04/30/religionandgenerosity/
Btw, did you read that clinical link I posted about sudden religious conversions as a symptom of neurological disorders? Here’s what your buddy, Calvin said:
As you are aware, Calvin believed in the total depravity of man: That human nature is basically evil. Calvin was a control freak and a tormented soul. He suffered migraines; a common symptom of epilepsy. He believed he was chosen of god; a symptom of temporal lobe epilepsy and schizophrenia. TLE can lead to schizophrenia if not treated. He had a sudden religious experience; a common symptom of temporal lobe epilepsy. He was morally rigid; a common symptom of temporal lobe epilepsy. He had stomach problems; a symptom of temporal lobe epilepsy. He experienced bouts of severe depression; a common symptom of temporal lobe epilepsy.
He had outbursts of anger; a symptom of temporal lobe epilepsy. He was obsessed with apocalyptic themes; a symptom of temporal lobe epilepsy and schizophrenia. He was, at times, overcome with fear; a symptom of temporal lobe epilepsy and schizophrenia. He experienced extreme death anxiety and cleverly came up with his predestination, once saved, always saved, theology.
Well into his late years, he suffered with anxiety about his convictions and was obsessed with controlling his environment, which meant controlling others. He behaved because he feared his god, having no confidence in himself to be humane without god. While he did have a positive influence in certain circumstances, he lambasted one fear-mongering, authoritarian religion and created another fear-mongering authoritarian religion. He was depicted by many in his day as psychotic, repressed, and even schizophrenic. Calvin wrestled with self-doubt until the end of his life
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/John_Calvin
That’s some god you serve there, Greg. Yes, indeed, he does work in mysterious ways. 😉
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Go on … call him a Dickhead! You know you want to. He truly is a colossal arse-hat.
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Not sticking to your new rules very well Ark! We’ve so far had very little name-calling or rudeness I’m pleased to say. Like I said before, you just have to wonder what kind of life experience he’s had to accept all that …
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He can blame me. I knocked on his door…
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Hehe, too tempting.
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Ah, I only commented because that bloody Aussie nagged me.
I truly wonder how you cant stand the madness.
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John’s a bad, bad influence. You stick to your guns Ark. 😉
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From your mouth to God’s ears …. or something.
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I heard that 😉
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Violets worthwhile thread would appear to have been ‘hijacked’ by these two idiots – Mr. ZZ Top and Colostomybag.
Perhaps it was always so, but it seems to me the intellectual level of the ”Believer” has taken a noticeable nosedive.
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Kind of makes you miss PeW and Fide doesn’t it?
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Er … let me think? Hell NO!!
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There isn’t a pimple of “intellect” between both of these Young Earth Creationists combined. It’s where I draw the line on civility.
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Arkenaten says: Go on … call him a Dickhead! You know you want to. He truly is a colossal arse-hat.
Don’t be runnin off like that young man. Ya want me to worry?
And depriving us of the penetrating insights and weighty analyses such as the immediately above? It won’t do. In the future please give written notice before taking a leave of absence so we can all prepare ourselves accordingly.
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Mahatma Gandhi is probably in the same hell that Adolf Hitler is probably in and Jeffery Dahmer is probably in heaven. The difference is the blood of Jesus Christ. NO sin is more powerful than that blood and good woks without it only the make the flames of hell hotter.
It becomes even more vile when combined with your assertion that Mahatma Gandhi was obviously selected by your God for such torment. Had he been one of the elect your God would have seen to it he was in his heaven. Yes, I can see the glory in that.
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whoops, I was typing fast and furiously – THEIR!
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Sorted. I did the same. What a sick comment.
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Powerful video, Neuro but I can almost BET that neither Greg or Colorstorm will watch it. It might make them think, and they can’t have that.
Here’s what really makes me question all religions. I agree with you Violet, that there many people who impart the loving (cherry-picked) portions of the bible. However, these people MUST realize how toxic christians are rotting the whole barrel – why aren’t they plucking them out?
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Carmen,
I watched the video but there really is no need for others to waste their time on it since the argument presented there is completely irrational.
The atheist argument goes something like this:
“God doesn’t behave like atheists think he should behave therefore he does not exist.”
When was the last time you tried to wink someone out of existence simply because they didn’t behave the way you thought they should?
Two year olds try that and fail and eventually come to the conclusion that they must face reality.
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Curious that you would use that word phrase, ‘face reality’ SOM – it leaves me wondering if a few of you are trained in the art of irony. . it’s getting to be a popular literary device on this thread. 🙂
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Carmen,
Reality is, as my intro to biology professor used to say, that we live in a universe that’s out to get us.
Change anything about that universe and man never comes into being.
So the idea that God has to act according to atheist specifications in order to exist is totally ridiculous.
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SOM, let’s not get into a discussion about what our biology professors said (I had one too, in case that was meant as a one-up).
Just so you know, I believe science answers most of the questions (and I don’t need them all answered) of our existence – religion answers NONE of them.
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Hey Carm
Nice to meetcha 😉
You said:
———–Just so you know, I believe science answers most of the questions (and I don’t need them all answered) of our existence – religion answers NONE of them.————-
Yep, agreed, religion answers none of them……………..
But the truth answers them all.
You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.
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Colorstorm,
I’m sure there are people who find your ambiguity quite charming – I’m not one of those.
Just so you know. 🙂
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Carmen,
My point is, we must accept the universe as it is, not the way atheists wish that God made it to be.
Isn’t that so ridiculous?
You atheists base your argument against the existence of God based on the way you wish God had made the universe.
I’m saying, and so does every reasonable person, let’s take reality the way it is, that we live in a totally hostile universe and go from there.
There is nothing about the universe being hostile to life that calls God’s existence into question.
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This is true, SOM, yet the obscene levels of suffering in this universe indicates not a benevolent god, but a malevolent one.
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John,
Whether a human being fulfills his nature has nothing to do with how much suffering we must endure.
Also, all the great religions teach that suffering is neither here nor there with regard to fulfilling the purpose of human life.
What the atheist has declared in fact, is that the purpose of life, how the human being fulfills his nature, is to avoid suffering.
That makes atheism a rather radical branch of simple, rank hedonism.
Further, that also means the atheist believes that engaging in vice is the purpose of human life.
The Western Heritage, pagan or Christian has always held that man fulfills his human nature by pursing virtue.
That means suffering is inherent to a healthy life, since virtue means regulating and sometimes denying the appetites or placing another cause or person over personal self interest.
However you want to slice it, atheism is a sleaze bag set of beliefs.
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Whether a human being fulfills his nature has nothing to do with how much suffering we must endure.
Nice dodge, SOM, but I wasn’t talking about our own suffering, rather the suffering that pervades everything
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John,
I haven’t dodged anything.
The fact is, that atheists blame God and wink him out of existence for not establishing heaven on Earth.
Atheists are in fact utopians who believe that heaven on Earth can be established and all suffering eliminated by a properly designed and implemented government regime.
Unfortunately we know from experience that atheist regimes have to slaughter 10’s of millions of their own citizens to impose atheist utopia which in reality is hell on Earth.
The atheist argument against the existence of God due to excessive suffering is not connected to reality and is therefore irrational.
And whenever atheists have the opportunity to act like the benevolent God they would wish upon the universe, they create hell on Earth.
So philosophically and materially, atheism and all its arguments are deceptions based on a hallucinated alternate reality where suffering and evil do not exist.
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Another fine dodge, SOM, but no one’s blaming anyone. You said it yourself, the universe is ghastly. Now, as you want to posit some supernal deity (not me) into this ghastliness then the more rational costume for that deity would be malevolence, not benevolence.
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Carmen says: “Just so you know, I believe science answers most of the questions (and I don’t need them all answered) of our existence – religion answers NONE of them.”
This is freakin beautiful!! I mean really!! It can’t get any better.
1+1=2. Are you sure? Why or why not? Please join Ruth and I in the other THREAD .
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It’s seriously hillarious to see you use math (1+1=2) when you are simultaneously so astronomically ignorant to believe the earth is 6,000 years old.
Keep it up!
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1+1=2, for integer addition, yes it’s clearly true. If you don’t think it’s true then you can back up your faith in your other system by:
a) if you think it’s less than 2, you give me two single monetary units and i’ll give you your amount back.
b) if you think it’s more than 2, you can give me your amount, and i’ll give you two singles back.
We can repeat until you run out of money (at which point we will have proved your amount is in fact not equal, although I will be happy for you to continue believing otherwise).
You can redefine words, numbers and symbols to mean something other than what everyone else interprets it as, but then you are not really speaking the truth are you ? It all becomes a bit Clintonesque where one has to end up asking all the time what the meaning of “is” is, and hoping it does not change between you saying it once and saying it again etc.
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Madam, you do not know me at all. 😀 I am afraid of NOTHING and NO ONE. Clearly you need to catch up. I’ve been hearing these same arguments for 25 years. Please do read over the threads I’ve participated in here Jesus name. It will save you from further comments like this one.
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“I am afraid of NOTHING and NO ONE.”
I’ve only ever heard that line from schoolyard bullies.
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And now you’ve heard it from a disciple of Jesus Christ (2 Timothy 1:7). Your horizons are expanding. Isn’t it wonderful?
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Carmen says: “if you really and truly believe – with your heart and your head – that JD belongs in heaven”
Nobody belongs in heaven Carmen. Not me, not you, not Violet, not the apostle Paul or John Calvin. Nobody. The fact that God saves ANYbody puts me on my face in adoring worship of His love and mercy. As I said to Ruth HERE:
The apostle said in his letter to the Galatians that if justification before God came through works then Christ died for nothing. No, all of the apparently good and charitable and loving and selfless works there could ever be ever be are an affront and a stench in the nostrils of a merciful God when sent to Him as a means of acceptance in His sight. That same apostle said in the 14th of Romans that ALL that is not of faith in the one true and living God IS sin. The good works and holy life that a Christian strives to live are done in gratitude for having BEEN saved, not as a means to it.
I’ve seen Dahmer’s testimony and heard the pastor who baptized him. Unlike you self righteous pagans, Dahmer KNEW he was evil. The doctors couldn’t TALK him into believing he was sick or abused or defective or ill or neuro-pathically challenged. He was EXACTLY what you and I are if not for the restraining common grace of almighty God upon sin in His world. I watched Dahmer tell his interviewer: “I am evil, a bad man. I know that if there is any hope for me it is in the forgiveness of God that can only come through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for my sins.” (very close paraphrase).
AMEN!!! THAT is the right answer. One single rebellious bite from a piece of forbidden fruit plunged the whole of humanity spawned from Adam into eternal death. NOT because there was anything special about the fruit or especially heinous in itself in eating it. It was the fact of WHO that sin was against. One single bite. Everybody here including me has sinned far worse in word, thought and deed just today. It is the cleansing of that blood that separates the damned from the redeemed. Dahmer found that in a bible in prison. He did NOT try to make light or justify his sin. He did the only thing he could do. He gave it to Jesus and asked his Lord to make him clean. That has been the promise from Genesis 3, to the covenant with Abraham and the glorious deliverance from sin, which need is made manifest through the law and which deliverance from it’s death was foretold by the prophets in the coming messiah. As far as being damnable is concerned? His sin was no worse than mine (or yours). Yes, the holy blood of Christ IS his righteousness and the resurrection life of Christ is his by pure grace through faith. In the adopted family of God in Christ, he is my brother and I rejoice and marvel at the infinite love and mercy of a God who makes it so.
Lemme make this unmistakeably and abundantly clear. I have HAD IT up to here with world worshiping idolatrous Christians who dress my Jesus up in pop culture and are ashamed of the truths of His word. Who run from His justice, holiness and created order while painting him as a groovadelic tie dyed sugar daddy who’s wringing His hands hoping people will believe in Him and who’s afraid of scaring them away. You will never have the problem of me running from His truth in case you haven’t noticed Violet. On one hand I am burdened mightily for your eternal souls, and on the other I couldn’t possibly care less what you think. I direct you back to my very first COMMENT on this site.
I must reiterate yet again. Whatever it was you folks here once believed, it was NOT the gospel of Jesus Christ. I really AM going to have to get on my response to Ruth soon, though she has been very patient.
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Trib – sorry, but I only got to the first quote – where it says, MEN (chicks too) – is that baby chickens? (I’m scratching, here. .. )
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Grow up and bring some substance. “Chicks” was a cutesy hippy term for “females” when I was a kid. No offense intended.
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Oh, and by the way I’m 57 – I think I’ve grown up. Obviously you haven’t if it was a term you used when you were a kid.
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Violet. I will always be grateful for the audience you’ve given me over here 😉
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…and we will always be grateful that you, Greg, have clearly represented and confirmed just how dysfunctional conservative Christianity is.
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“we will always be grateful that you, Greg, have clearly represented and confirmed just how dysfunctional conservative Christianity is”
That sums it up beautifully Victoria, although I would add ‘disturbing’ along with dysfunctional.
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Tiribulus says: “God IS love, but that’s not the same as all lovING. God is not ALL lovING. He is also blindingly holy and righteous and just and glorious beyond all possible human comprehension. He could have justly and rightly left ALL men (chicks too) to perish in their sin. Which would have happened had He not set set His saving affection on SOME of them, which is the point. I don’t question why God leaves who he does to their chosen path of death in sin. I MARVEL at His mercy and grace in saving ANYBODY!!!
Picture a gang who has raped and murdered the members of a king’s family. Brutally and sadistically. The victim’s father and husband turns out to be the judge in the case as well as king of the land. He comes into the courtroom and says:
“You two I sentence to death by hanging. Sentence to be carried out immediately. You there, the third man. Not only will I not condemn you, but I will submit to being hanged myself in YOUR place and you are to move into my castle and inherit my estate.”
An imperfect analogy, as all analogies regrading an infinite God must of necessity be, but you get the point. The courtroom would be loudly aghast and buzzing. Not because of the sentence imposed on the first 2 men, but in astonishment over the unthinkable mercy and active substitutionary grace shown to the 3rd.”
I suppose the courtoom would be loudly aghast and buzzing. That would be truly astonishing. But what happens when those in the courtroom find out that the judge commissioned the rape and murders? I don’t think the people would be quite so impressed with the judge anymore.
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I’ve answered this Ruth. That answer is a large component of the biblical worldview. You recognized that yourself. God is able and authorized to render all of history certain without being in any way morally implicated in it’s evil. Yes He is and yes He does.You won’t accept that because it doesn’t fit between you ears. This is called self worshiping idolatry.
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By this reply to Ruth, I take it you are a fan of John Piper, the guy who stated, “It’s right for God to slaughter women and children anytime he pleases. God gives life and he takes it away. Everybody who dies, dies because God wills that they die.”
Nice guy(s).
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If I’m not mistaken you said your God in his infinite wisdom created all of this, right? He creates evil, wills man to commit it so there can BE a cross, and then is in no way morally implicated in the evil that is done? This is all his plan but he is not responsible for it?
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We’ll get there in our other conversation. You have my word. In the meantime, please read the first, say at least ten VERY short chapters of the CONFESSION that you knew of before we met and is 360 years old. I find 99% of that document to be exceedingly biblical. It will answer many of these type of questions. The 120 men who took 4 years hammering that out in the mid 17th century did a mind blowingly awesome job in my view. As you yourself quite rightly said, THAT was the overall majority Christian view of North America from the Bradford colony into the 20th century. My theology is not new or unique or bizarre or of my own devising. Actually it’s the old reformation gospel. They got it more right in one place than any other statement of Christian doctrine in history.
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“He was EXACTLY what you and I are if not for the restraining common grace of almighty God upon sin in His world.”
Greg, yet another fill in the gaps statement that has no basis in reality. You have no excused to be so willfully unlearned unless you have mental disabilities.
According to you, god willed brain damage. He orchestrated people to sustain injuries is specific areas of the brain that would lead to antisocial behavior.
and
and
and
http://learn.fi.edu/learn/brain/head.html
I’m just scratching the surface that clinically explains the causes of antisocial behavior.
Again, according to your theology, your war god, Yahweh, willed the very conditions that lead to brain damage which can lead to antisocial behavior, then created a hell to put these people in — right beside people who don’t have the same sick theology as you. I don’t think you are in your right mind.
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You’re wasting time Victoria. I do not care what your sinful corrupt researchers say in their campaign to deny their God. They are spiritually dead and hence intellectually crippled unbelievers. Which doesn’t mean stupid mind you. I’m just trying to save you some effort. 1+1=2. Try that please. For the one thousandth time. If you can’t account for logic in general, why would I care about anything else you have to say about all the conclusions you claim to reach while using it?
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Why does this comment not surprise me?
Repeat — your theology is sick and inhumane.
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Not it’s not.
You turn 🙂
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. . and, Greg, SERIOUSLY. Do not call women, ‘chicks’. It’s an insult. You know, kinda like if I announced, “Ladies and COCKS!”
Get it?
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This is how u get into trouble with your thinking Carmen- u make assumptions, and this affects how you judge in general.
You are ordering somebody HOW to think, and WHAT to say; kind of like your colleagues saying WHAT not to tell children;
Why don’t u allow the ladies to have their say. Your return comment was a thousand times worse..
Get it ?
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Oh, so since you’re speaking for Greg now, tell us all what he meant by ‘chicks’. I’ll wait.
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This is what they do when they have nothing else to contribute Colorstorm. Whine about some utterly inconsequential side issue like my totally innocuous use of a random word they don’t like. Don’t ya see? God doesn’t exist now. I said “chicks”. How could he?
Work time.
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Actually, Greg, no I certainly don’t believe the christian god exists, for a variety of reasons. But disrespect for women most certainly does, and conservative christianity is rife with it.
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Indeed, Carmon. Conservative Christianity hoists a bunch of insecure alpha male wannabes. They are more deranged, aggressive, and antisocial than your average alpha male baboon.
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Neuro-
Carmen
Tirib
To whosoever will,and/ or
To whom it may concern:
Hate to burst your bubble. but there is NO true atheist, You THINK you are because of an imagined superior intellect, but truth be told, your mind suppresses what your heart knows.
Your conscience indicts you. Am I sure? Yep. Stand at the ocean and deny that the waters have a boundary. Forget about the testimony of the moon and God’s enduring promise to keep Israel. Make up a lie that says it just so happened. Believe that lie. Promote that lie..
Look at the four seasons and deny the perfection of nature as designed by a Creator. Look at the endless stars and imagine a grand accident. Look at the rainbow, yep, another fluke, having nothing to do with a Creator and His promise.
And then there is this little thing called sin……………….
You must be one great human being to override a Creator in all this. Nice work .
For God;s sake, look at the difference between you and animals.
(Before you embarrass yourself here, think before you speak.)
You see, the fool says in his heart, there is no God.
Nature and your conscience are enough proof. Then there is the testimony of scripture; now there is nowhere to hide.
Hmmm, now lets see, how many here will agree………………….As for me, yep, a simple fool..
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Why are you trying not to burst MY bubble brother? 🙂 I’ve been telling them all long that they are confronted with their Lord and Master in every fact of creation and especially themselves as bearers of His very image. Broken though it is in sin. (Romans 1:18ff)
I’m not jumping on you at all, I just understand why you addressed this to me as if I would deny that?
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Ah no,
Impossible to post everywhere, that’s all.
I asked who would agree with me??
That would be you! of course
It’s all good.
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I misunderstood. I apologize. 🙂
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Colorstorm,
People like you and Greg killed my partner, my lover, my best friend and the father of my only child. It’s interesting how you and people like you have “godly” psychic powers, claiming to know the hearts and thoughts of others and what’s best for them.
While in your pious way, you think you mean well, you really are a hindrance to the the well being and evolution of our species. Your comments demonstrate that you do not want to move forward. You want to remain in the past. If there is a creator, it’s not the man-made war god of your tribal bible. If I am wrong, then I would not regret refusing to bow down and worship such an insecure, immoral, unethical, jealous deity.
Stay away from children.
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Neuro-
On my worst day I would never post something like this, but again, I am neither offended nor can you insult me.
“People like me?’ I detest what happened to your husband maybe more than you, did that thought ever cross your mind? I know all about wolves in sheeps clothing.
And I also know there are people who ‘say’ they have life, but an old friend said, ‘you can dunk a sinner till all the tadpoles know him by his first name, but if he is not a believer, then he is just a wet sinner.’
If this was a judged debate on merit and content, you would lose hands down because of your caustic and continual accusations, and inability to stay on point.
Your language Neuro betrays your past, and your full time effort to promote the ‘uselessness’ of that which was allegedly precious to you, is startling. Any fair minded person would observe the same.
But I think there is something else, under the surface, for it surprises you to meet people of intellect and faith.
Btw, my friend is a PHD in Microbiology, and in our ongoing discussions, he shared with me this: He said his colleagues know without a shadow of a doubt, through testing, observation, and the immutable laws of science, that evolution is impossible, but they simply cannot accept the alternative,
Quite a statement from the halls of academia.
Again, God is not on trial, man is. His word is good and his counsels are perfect. And he still offers grace to all.
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Colorstorm:
“Before the Christian dismisses atheism as irrational or condemns the atheist as immoral, he should consider the disturbing possibility that the God of Christianity is himself an atheist. And if this is true, it means that the Christian worships, obeys, and has devoted his life to an atheistic being who does not believe in any power superior to itself, never prays, is utterly without fault, and who does not acknowledge any authority, either cognitive or moral, external to himself.
Satan is not an atheist – that much is clear – for he believes in the God of Christianity. We thus have the intriguing spectacle of a battle between two Titans, with God the Atheist on the side of good, and Satan the Theist on the side of evil. And if the Bible is to be believed, the Atheist will ultimately triumph over the Theist.”
–George H. Smith (The Case Against God Sequel)
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Neuro-
I actually like this post. I disagree but still I like it.
Mr. Smith is right and wrong though. Satan believed in God long before Christianity, and to this day, he still trembles, for he knows the inevitable outcome.
The idea however that God could somehow deny Himself, (atheism) is a thought that has taken wings, is creative, but laughable.
There is a lot of truth between the lines here, but good post, but I will just have to disagree with the writer, of course.
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Very good indeed.
Gym time.
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“On my worst day I would never post something like this, but again, I am neither offended nor can you insult me.”
Colorstorm, it was neither intended to insult you or offend you but to bring awareness. Both you and Greg have a god complex, so full of yourself, you speak on your god’s behalf, because you have “the” truth. You purportedly have holy psychic powers, and that is what causes enormous harm, and yes, even death to those who are unfortunate enough to come across your primitive path.
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Neuro-
Don’t know about these ‘psycic powers’ u speak of, but please do not confuse arrogance with confidence.
My confidence is in the Word of God. I am not ashamed. Where is your confidence?
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Sorry to inform you, yet again Colorstorm, but multiple distinguished scholars and conservative rabbis have known for decades that the Pentateuch is a work of fiction — and the NT manuscripts, for which there are no originals, are corrupted with thousands of copying errors, embellishments, omissions, forgeries, and anonymous writers.
Given the fact that Jesus and Paul acknowledged the patriarchs of the OT, I’d say they have serious credibility issues.
But I am fully cognitive of the fact that you will never accept this until you come out of your security bubble. You appear to be too much in love with your fictitious lover, thus lacking critical assessment (deactivated neural circuity), as the studies have shown.
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Neuro-
Ask your friends if they ever heard of Cain? Ask them if he lived, or if he was a fable.
So called scholars who deny the text have zero credibility, and would have no standing in a debate.
A rabbi who disbelieves the scripture? This is your go to guy?
Maybe you should look into somebody who actually believes the text, say the learned Austrian Alfred Edersheim, whose masterpiece ‘the life and times of Jesus the Messiah,’ has met every challenge and still stands tall.
It is unattackable. So in your research, look into your opposition, you may learn something about yourself as well
http://thenakedtruth2.wordpress.com/2013/08/07/cain-was-a-good-man-cain-in-the-garden/
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Why are you afraid to talk me about this Victoria? Nobody even has to know. I won’t say if you don’t. You can yell at me and curse at me and call me names. I am NOT out to hurt you. Everything we say on the other hand is fair game. Feel free to post it publicly if you think you need to. Or not. I want to hear what happened. I would allow myself to be slowly boiled in oil before EVER publicly divulging anything you said to me.
tiribulus@yahoo.com
OR, please point me to where you’ve already told your story. I don’t know what anybody else has done to you, but you really do have me all wrong.
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“Why are you afraid to talk me about this Victoria?”
LMAO —- Most everybody knows that I’ve never been afraid to talk about it, and have. In fact, I shared early on in previous posts ➡ with you. Greg, you repeat yourself a lot, ask questions that have already been answered; or you don’t actually read all comments directed at you; or you have a poor memory. Atrophied hippocampus perhaps? 😉
Religious Factors and Hippocampal Atrophy in Late Life
But hey — as you say, “You’re wasting time Victoria. I do not care what your sinful corrupt researchers say in their campaign to deny their God. They are spiritually dead and hence intellectually crippled unbelievers.”
Like I mentioned in Violet’s previous posts, you are playing with fire, and if you keep it up, you’re most likely going to get severely burned. Please seek a mental health professional.
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Colorstorm, are you even aware of some of the earths geological history? I see you didn’t know earth days are getting longer and longer every year since the formation of the moon, so i’m guessing you know next to nothing, but do try looking up, for example, The Great Oxygen Catastrophe, then let me know how that fits with your gods perfect “design.”
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Tkx jZ
Aren’t u suspicious of such terms like ‘mass extinction?’ (GOC)
You would promote a plant life holocaust (etc) from 2.5 billion ago, as fact, and say Noah’s flood was a fable? hmmm.
God’s perfect design, oh yeah, no issues there. You see though, there is this little asterisk which changes everything, and has changed everything: sin.
Because of sin the WHOLE creation groans. Death can give thanks to sin.
Btw, the tossing around of obscure dates, (3 billion, 200 million, etc etc, as facts for what happened, cannot be considered by fair minded souls)
But yes,no defects in the Creator or His creation.
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Btw, the tossing around of obscure dates, (3 billion, 200 million, etc etc, as facts for what happened, cannot be considered by fair minded souls)
Oh dear, don’t tell me you also believe the earth is 5,000 years old?
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jZ–
You could at least have addressed the merits of my post. But that’s fine. To answer your question, this may help.
http://thenakedtruth2.wordpress.com/2014/09/27/2857/
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Apologies, Colorstorm, but it is quite literally impossible to take any person seriously if they practice such willful ignorance to maintain their beliefs as you do. There is no option, I’m afraid, but to now consider you, and treat you, as a child who simply hasn’t advanced to the appropriate level of education to engage in an adult conversation.
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John Zande: “Apologies, Colorstorm, but it is quite literally impossible to take any person seriously if they practice such willful ignorance to maintain their beliefs as you do. There is no option, I’m afraid, but to now consider you, and treat you, as a child who simply hasn’t advanced to the appropriate level of education to engage in an adult conversation.”
Says the towering titanic emissary of erudition who can’t tell anybody he’s sure 1+1=2 and why.
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As I said earlier Greg: I truly hope you do not have any contact whatsoever with children.
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Say’s the guy who wants to debate with Steven Hawkins on the “utterly foundational topic of epistemology.”
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Correction: *Stephen
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Tiribulus-
The One whose understanding is infinite was thought to have a devil-
Paul was called a madman-
John and Peter were unlearned and ignorant-
I’m liking the company. 😉
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They also believed the earth was flat. Do you?
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Just got back from looking after our two little redheaded grandchildren. Beautiful children who are being brought up never having to hear about supernatural beings who can do with them as s/he/it likes; one of the things I am very thankful for. Children who (at 3 & 5) can already name every plant in the garden and tell me about sea creatures eating plankton. . .
It strikes me, reading through Colorstorm and Trib’s diatribes – if your god is such a powerful lord and master, why must you two constantly strike up such pathetic defences for her/him/it?? Why leave that job to mere mortals? Surely this omniscient diety can come up with a better way to prove itself? My Least Favourite Fiction sure isn’t doing it, either.
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Victoria says: “Greg, you repeat yourself a lot, ask questions that have already been answered; or you don’t actually read all comments directed at you; or you have a poor memory. Atrophied hippocampus perhaps?”
OR.. (lord help me) I keep being asked the same questions over and over by the many opponents I have been juggling here for the past, what is it, 9 days now? Could I prevail upon you to be so longsuffering and indulgent as to point me to where this was? I apologize for having missed these comments. It was unintentional I assure you.
Victoria says: “Like I mentioned in Violet’s previous posts, you are playing with fire, and if you keep it up, you’re most likely going to get severely burned. Please seek a mental health professional.”
I do so very much appreciate your touching and compassionate concern my dear. I must however respectfully decline, as I have the best Doctor in all the universe. The great Physician, Jesus Christ, the man born God in whose image and by whose hand I am fearfully and wonderfully made. (139th Psalm)
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“I do so very much appreciate your touching and compassionate concern my dear. I must however respectfully decline, as I have the best Doctor in all the universe. The great Physician, Jesus Christ”
Ah, yes, that sounds familiar. Relying on the “great Physician” rather than seeking a mental health professional was the “counsel” given to my partner just hours before he blew his brains out. This is why people who believe like you are dangerous.
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Carmen says :”Surely this omniscient deity can come up with a better way to prove itself?”
Here I am trying so hard to help you out Carmen and you just won’t listen. See here Victoria? I’m gonna have to say the same things over again, because I keep being asked the same things over again. Carmen please read over these threads or you will continue to ask questions I’ve already answered and Victoria is going to keep accusing me of hipocamus issues.
I said, among several other places, on this very page ABOVE , the following to John: ”
The problem you’re having John is that you don’t understand that God could not possibly care less what you think. (He doesn’t care what I think either). He’s not hoping you believe in Him or trying to establish a reputation with you or anybody else on this earth. “
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Hi Greg, I’d love to get your comments on my latest post about exorcisms. I’m confused about what the general Christian outlook is towards this and I know you’re not reluctant to tackled difficult issues like this:
I’ll be sending the same message to other Christians I think could add the conversation here, because I think it’s very serious issue that needs careful consideration and more input.
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As soon as I have Time violet. I am slammed with work, which I really need. I am honored by your request.
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Okay, thanks for letting me know. Pop over when you get some time.
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Victoria says: “NT manuscripts, for which there are no originals, are corrupted with thousands of copying errors, embellishments, omissions, forgeries, and anonymous writers.”
Please do hear a man (with which I have significant disagreements in other areas) who has given his life to especially New Testament textual criticism and IS one of the foremost scholars in the world on the subject today. Show me how courageous you ladies are. (is “ladies” ok? That’s not a bad word too, is it?)
I have listened to EVERY video and read EVERY last thing you folks have brought. Let’s see how fair minded and objective you actually are. I am asking you please to watch this all the way through AND LISTEN. 36 minutes.
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Incredible what sort of people can achieve PhD’s these days. This dude Daniel Wallace on the video here (in 20: something) claims that the sheer number of copies of the NT prove that Jesus was a historical character and compares it to how we know Julius Caesar actually lived. As if he did not know how the historicity of a person is evaluated and established. The number of NT copies has nothing to do with the historicity of Jesus as an actual person (by the way I think the stories are based on at least one such person, but that is a nother ball game) simply because none of them are contemporary sources and, if he knows this much about historical research, he is making a blatant and outrageous lie to benefit his cause. Otherwise, that is, if he does not know how historicity of any person is determined, then his research is next to worthless, because it is basic methodology. This makes me very suspicious of anything he says here, even though he also says some valid things…
At 28 min and something he refers to the Bible verse about exorcism and fails to wonder if such a thing as exorcism is possible at all. It is irrelevant wether or not the original Gospel writers thought fasting is important with exorcism. The actual question is what the hell is exorcism in the first place.
He also says that he does not know wether the “number of the beast” is 666 or 616, but the essential question is not wich is what is this information actually worth? It has been interpreted from generation to generation to mean something, but it really means nothing. It is numerical mythology… That’s all.
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PhD’s from American bible colleges, Raut. Not “real” PhD’s, from “real” universities. The American’s have been frightfully slack in how they use the term, University.
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I listened to your video. A couple of points:
1) The number of manuscripts available doesn’t really establish the truth of the scriptures, themselves. For starters we don’t know how many of those manuscripts are merely copies of copies. Of course you’d expect variants. Since we don’t have the originals, though, we don’t know what the real variants are. Misplaced grammar can change the entire meaning and essence of a document.
2) I do not think it is mainstream to argue that there was no historical person who was an itinerant eschatological preacher who roamed the countryside(though I realize there are those who do argue this). Using this as an example really misrepresents what most people believe. It’s not that I think that none of the people or places mentioned in the Bible are historical people.
3) Using Julius Caesar as an example of proving historicity only goes so far. If we learned new information about the life of Julius Caesar or learned that what we thought was historically true based on the documentation we have it would be no big deal. I’m not expected to believe everything written about Julius Caesar as fact. There is no other person or document in history that I am aware of that I am asked to be certain is absolute truth as a matter of life or death. There really is no comparison.
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or learned that what we thought was historically true based on the documentation we have it would be no big deal.
or learned that what we thought was historically true based on the documentation we have was actually false*
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Well, there are independend contemporary sources about Julius Caesar, but none of the other JC. Why? Better comparrison to Jesus would however be Alexander the Great of whom we also have indipendent contemporary sources and who was described as a son of a god. Do we think he was? Why not? There were exactly as many eyewittnesses to the miracles not made by Alexander the Great as there ever was for those alledgedly made by this Jesus character.
It seems there is some unexplained importance to us taking Jesus as the son of a particular Middle-Eastern god by blind faith, rather than by evidence (as his personal followers did according to the story), because such simple evidence as for the existance of Alexander the Great, or for Julius Caesar for that matter, like independent contemporary eyewittness accounts are totally and utterly missing. The creator of the entire universe could not have botched this alledgedly most important message to human kind so badly – hence the said entity must have had a hidden purpose for all this confusion… Wait, that makes no sense at all. Or perhaps, it is more likely, that the demand for blind faith by this particular god in this particular fairy tale obviously told by superstitious ignoramuses, who could not agree about the colour of shite, is equal to the demand for blind faith by all the other gods ever imagined by humans anywhere and no gods what so ever exist.
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“Satan is not an atheist – that much is clear – for he believes in the God of Christianity. We thus have the intriguing spectacle of a battle between two Titans, with God the Atheist on the side of good, and Satan the Theist on the side of evil. And if the Bible is to be believed, the Atheist will ultimately triumph over the Theist.”
The Hebrew word for “satan” means “enemy, adversary”. It is used in this sense numerous times in the Hebrew scriptures to refer to human adversaries. For example, we read, “And the LORD raised up a satan (enemy) for Solomon, Hadad the Edomite, who was of the royal seed in Edom” (1Ki 11:14). And again, “(23) And God raised him up a satan (enemy), Rezon son of Elyada… (25) and he was a satan (enemy) to Israel all the days of Solomon…” (1Ki 11:23-25).
It is often said by many people that claim to be Christian, that in the Old Testament satan is a fallen angel, but there is nothing in the Old Testament in context that says that.
The truth is, in the Old Testament satan (the adversary, the enemy) is either an angel, but satan is not a fallen angel, or satan is a person that God uses to be a satan (adversary, enemy) against someone else.
The first angelic satan (enemy) to appear in the Hebrew scriptures is in the account of the Gentile prophet Bil’am (Balaam). Bil’am had been invited by the Moabite king Balak to curse Israel but God instructed Bil’am not to agree to Balak’s request (Numbers 22:12). Bil’am would not take no for an answer and God eventually agreed that he may go to meet with Balak but not to curse Israel (Numbers 22:22).
Apparently Bil’am had other ideas and set off to curse Israel anyway. God was displeased by this and sent a satanic angel against Bil’am, “And the anger of God burned, for he (Bil’am) was going. And an angel of the LORD stood in the way as a satan (enemy) to him (Bil’am)” (Numbers 22:22). We see the angel of the LORD is called a satan (enemy).
In 1 Chronicles 21:1 satan (the adversary) provokes David to number Israel, but 2 Samuel 24:1 says that God made David number Israel, therefore the satan (the adversary) in 1 Chronicles 21:1 is not the adversary of God, the satan is the adversary of man, the satan is working on behalf of God.
1 Chron 21:1 And satan [the adversary] stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
David’s census is also mentioned in a parallel account in the book of Samuel. The book of Samuel informs us that the one who incited David was the LORD, while the book of Chronicles attributes this to a satan.
2 Sam 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.
So when we read in one book that the LORD incited Israel and in the other that a satan incited Israel, we must conclude that this satan was acting on God’s behalf.
The teaching that says, “satan is a fallen angel” is false.
The truth is, satan is an angel, but satan is not a fallen angel, and the truth is, satan is man, and both are used by God to do what God has predestined to happen.
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Colorstorm says, “Mr. Smith is right and wrong though. Satan believed in God long before Christianity, and to this day, he still trembles, for he knows the inevitable outcome.”
Colorstorm, the devil is not a fallen angel, the Bible does not support the teaching that says “satan, the devil is a fallen angel.”
Sin entered the world thru Adam, which means, the devil is man, not a fallen angel.
Romans 5:12 thru one man [Adam] sin entered the world & death thru sin & so death spread to all men, because all sinned
John 6:70-71 Did I myself not choose you, the twelve & one of you is a devil [false accuser]? Now he meant Judas the son of Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray the Messiah
Matt 16:21 From that time Yeshua [the Messiah] began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day.
Matt 16:22 Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, saying, “God forbid {it,} Lord! This shall never happen to you.
Matt 16:23 The Messiah turned & said to Peter, get thee behind me satan [adversary] You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but man’s.”
The Greek word for the word “devil”, “diabolos” means “false accuser” and the Greek word for “satan”, “satanas” means “adversary”, anyone that is a false accuser is a devil, and anyone that is an adversary is satan.
The Messiah called Peter, “satan” in Matt 16:23 because Peter’s words to the Messiah came from the flesh. The flesh is the mind of man, Peter wasn’t thinking about the things of God, Peter was thinking about the things of man, God’s will was for the Messiah to be Crucified, and Peter was telling Christ that that wouldn’t happen, Peter was speaking against the will of God, that is why the Messiah called Peter, “satan” in Matt 16:23.
Rom 8:5 – For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 – For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 – Because the carnal mind is hostile toward God: for it doesn’t subject itself to the law of God, for it isn’t even able to do so.
Rom 8:8 – So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Psalm 103:20 – Bless the LORD, you His angels, Mighty in strength, who perform His word, Obeying the voice of His word! Angels were created to obey God, therefore none of the angels (celestial beings) sinned. Satan / the Devil is not a fallen angel, and demons are not fallen angels.
Psalm 103:19 – The LORD has established His throne in the heavens, And His sovereignty rules over all.
103:20 – Bless the LORD, you His angels, Mighty in strength, who perform His word, Obeying the voice of His word!.
103:21 – Bless the LORD, all you His hosts, You who serve Him, doing His will.
Hebrews 1:14 – Are not the angels all ministering spirits (servants) sent out in the service [of God for the assistance] of those who are to inherit salvation?
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I can not help it, but to an atheist, like me, the claims of religious people about their gods are equal to the monster claims in this show:
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I see not much has changed since yesterday – Colorstorm and Trib mutually pleasuring each other. . .
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Victoria says: “Say’s the guy who wants to debate with Steven Hawkins on the “utterly foundational topic of epistemology.”
In a heartbeat and he would fare no better than yall. Not because I’m brilliant, but because God’s truth is invincible,
John says: “They also believed the earth was flat. Do you?”
All men had those beliefs then. You would have too. God has granted much advancement in knowledge and many times through chosen unbelievers. That sinful man would use his rising knowledge to exalt himself above the throne of God is to be expected. As always, robbing God’s intellectual bank to finance their campaign against him.
From above again:
“Man has throughout his history, by virtue of the remaining though sinfully broken image of God, been so absolutely RIGHT about so very much of what he’s observed and published. While, due to this brokenness in sin, being so ABSOLUTELY wrong about how and why he’s right about it. This has led him to utterly corrupt and perverse conclusions even from the things he’s right about.”
I’m WORKING a funeral at the moment and have other work for most of the rest of the day. I’ll be on and off.
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So you believe the science that tells you the Earth is round, yet not the same science which tells you the Earth is 4.54 billion years old, in a 13.8 billion year old universe.
I see. So you’re just selectively ignorant.
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No you’re selectively gullible.
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Pingback: complementary comments of the month | violetwisp
“No, you’re selectively gullible” – yet AGAIN, Trib you illustrate irony perfectly.
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Can’t seem to put this comment where it belongs, but to Colorstorm’s reply to Mark Monroe, “. .. the word has devoured many a fool”, I would add – “Ain’t THAT the truth!”
Happy Thanksgiving to all of you from the Canuck who’s already celebrated the holiday, and the many farmers who provided our feast were all thanked personally! 🙂
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“This is an appeal to Christians to acknowledge that you believe obvious falsehoods.”
I understand what you are asking. I agree with you that is a good thing to challenge your own beliefs. That is one of the reasons I prefer to read blogs that don’t agree with my viewpoint.
If a friendly dialogue on the topic is what you were aiming for, I suggest you re-word your appeal to say it like this:
“This is an appeal to Christians to acknowledge that you believe some things that others might consider to be obvious falsehoods.”
That is a better challenge, that would work on me. The way you have worded it, causes me to immediately question your assumptions.
You haven’t established that anything is false, nor that it is obviously so. The example of Jesus that you cite, is not considered his key message. HOWEVER, there are plenty of examples throughout history of men and women doing this very thing. Mother Teresa is a well known one. So if not selling everything you own to follow Christ is proof that one believes a false religion, then is selling everything you own to follow Christ proof that one believes in a true religion? I don’t think it proves anything either way.
The most one could say is that IF that is a key teaching of Jesus, most modern day followers of Christ are not doing it. Then the question would become Why are we not doing that rather than Why do you believe something that is obviously false?
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I see what you mean, and it’s a fair point. However, I meant that it’s an obvious falsehood to claim to be practicing Christianity if you haven’t given up all your possessions. It’s clearly a key part of the message from the character Jesus. Not only do the vast majority of Christians have an abundance of unnecessary possessions and relative wealth, they don’t accept their belief system clearly states they should give it all up in order to live as Jesus would wish them to live. It’s not a message you’ll hear from any pulpit.
If you read the Bible without having seen what Christianity looks like, you’d be very surprised to discuss religious practices with a Christian from any denomination. All denominations have built their religions around obvious falsehoods that are not found in the Bible. The doctrine of the Trinity is a glaring example.
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HI Violet,
“However, I meant that it’s an obvious falsehood to claim to be practicing Christianity if you haven’t given up all your possessions.”
I understand now!
I think many, if not most, theologians (those who know a lot more about this stuff) would not say that selling all of one’s possessions was a key part of following Christ. Not even a minor part of it. On that point, I think you are wrong.
However, the thrust of your point, as I understand it now, is not wrong. IF you are saying that many Christians believe one thing is true and yet live in an opposite way, I would agree.
I think a better example is when Jesus summarized all the laws of the Old Testament into two. They are called the greatest commandments. They are the most important, because from them, all the others flow. His followers are to:
1. Love God with all their hearts
2. Love other people
It is not difficult to argue that today’s Christians believe this is true, and yet fail to make this the highest pursuit of their lives. Of course, I speak in general terms. There are many people who do live this way. But you, as one who doesn’t believe this stuff knows very well that many of us are guilty of not living this way.
Now what does that prove? I don’t think it disproves the claims of Christ, because many of the early Christians did live this way and many have throughout history.
“It’s not a message you’ll hear from any pulpit.”
Believe it or not, I have heard this from the pulpit.
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“I think many, if not most, theologians (those who know a lot more about this stuff) would not say that selling all of one’s possessions was a key part of following Christ.”
Of course not! They’d also say that the Bible teaches there is a trinity of gods. The whole point of the post is that if you read the Bible only (and not reference the centuries of attempted explanation and justification from thousands of agenda-pushing ‘theologians’) it’s clear there is no such trinity and also that Jesus believed people should live without possessions. I was attempting to make it clear that no Christian group can claim to have the ‘correct’ interpretation of the Bible, when basics such as this are ignored in almost every major denomination.
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violet,
Here is a quote from the Bible, in the very words of Jesus, stating God as Trinity, Matthew 28:18-20:
“18 But Jesus came near and spoke to them; All authority in heaven and on earth, he said, has been given to me; 19 you, therefore, must go out, making disciples of all nations, and baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, 20 teaching them to observe all the commandments which I have given you. And behold I am with you all through the days that are coming, until the consummation of the world.”
And in fact, Jesus refers to the Trinity many times in all the Gospels: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
The atheist would have everyone believe that a concept does not exist until it receives the appropriate, atheist-approved, label.
But I also pointed out in another example, a Hebrew (and therefore, Jesus) innovation stated in the Bible, from 1 Samuel.
In that innovation God, sounding like America’s Founding Fathers in the Declaration of Independence from the 18th century, Year of Our Lord, warns the nation of Israel about the evils tyranny.
That innovation was stated in the principles of modern political science by such luminaries as Niccolo Machiavelli and Charles de Montesquieu.
And that innovation was re-stated by the famous quotation of Jesus from Mark 12-17: “Give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s.”
So the thesis of this post has been refuted not once, but three times.
Your argument that nobody knows what Bible means therefore only what the atheist says about the Bible is true, is also hogwash.
That is so because the atheist declares herself as the authority for her own argument, which is a logical fallacy.
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No, he doesn’t .
Yes again, this is simply interpretation. And it’s necessary to point out, interpretation by a member of the very organisation that actually created the Trinity and also bestowed god-hood upon the character, Jesus of Nazareth
The character, Jesus of Nazareth emphatically denied he was Yahweh, and you are smart enough to know to which verses I refer.
Because of the controversy it took centuries to sort it out. This is why the church was galvanized into action largely because of the threat of Arianism. And this is why they eventually sent Marcion packing, refunded his money, trashed his bible and later, declared him a heretic.
Oh, and please don’t simply come back with some crap about your church/religion & western civilization
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Ark,
Jesus didn’t deny he was the Father.
In fact, Jesus said, “I and my Father are one.” John 10:30.
What Jesus did was teach the doctrine of the Trinity, that God is one family, three persons, all of the same substance (nature), all one God.
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Jesus said “No one is good – except God alone
Jesus said “But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only
John 13:3 the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he had come from God, and went to God.
John 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me
John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak,
John 8:26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him
John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.
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John,
I would like to refer you to that all time classic philosophy/action/contemporary angst, thriller, art piece:
“Spots On the Wall,” by Hu Flung Poo
It’s about the atheist who Googled poo from all over the Internet, threw it up against the wall, hoping some of it would stick.
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Brilliant!
How can anyone not love you, SOM! 🙂
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John,
You are my muse!
And I wubbs u 4 it.
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I think you’ve got something, Ark.
JESUS CHRIST SUPERSTRAIN!
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Indeed! It’s just you’ve got to wade through a lot of shite to get to these sparkling little gems.
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I and my father are one as well, genetically speaking. So what?
Th Trinity was only established bu your church centuries later.
Go study some history, SOM. Start with Nicea. Look up Arius and Marcion.
Look up Theodosius.
Go and get some serious learning under your religious belt.
It will do you good.
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Jn 17:21 says the church is one with God & Christ, just as Christ is one with God, Jn 17:21 proves the statement, “Christ & God are one,” doesn’t mean Christ is God.
Jn 17:21 That they all may be one, [just] as You, Father, are in me and I in You, that they also may be one in Us, so that the world may believe {and} be convinced that You have sent me.
Eph 4:6 says God is in all who are born from above (born of the Spirit), God was in Christ by the Holy Spirit that lived in Christ, and God is in those who are born from above, by the Holy Spirit that lives them, it is the Holy Spirit that made Christ and God “one”, and it is the Holy Spirit that makes those who are born from above, one with God and Christ.
God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit are in agreement, therefore they are “one”. Everyone who is born of the Spirit is in agreement with God, therefore everyone who is born of the Spirit (the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ) is one with God and Christ. To be “one” with God is to be in agreement with God.
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Born,
Atheists continually make the error assigning finite attributes to God.
It is not the same to say that Jesus and the Father are one, and that we are one with God if we agree with him.
Are you and any other person one because they are in agreement?
You may be of one mind, so to speak, but you and the other person are two distinct individual persons.
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Christ isn’t God, Christ is the Son of God, that’s what the New Testament says. 1 John 5:1 Everyone who believe that Yeshua is the Messiah [the son of God] is born of God. 1 John 3:9 No one born of God practices sin. A Christian is someone who believes Yeshua is the Messiah that no longer practices sin, that is the only biblical definition of a Christian.
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Born,
Jesus is God. That is fundamental to Christianity.
If you don’t believe Jesus is God then you aren’t a Christian.
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Absolutely correct, SOM, and the Catholic Church spent an inordinate amount of time and energy destroying all those who believed differently.
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LOL! I have heard that lie so many times, 1 John 5:1 & John 20:31 prove what you are saying is absolutely false !
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SOM, your words don’t agree with what the New Testament says a Christian is supposed to believe, I hope you can see that truth. John 20:31 these have been written that you may believe Yeshua is the Messiah, the SON of God, and by believing you may have life in his name. 1 John 5:1 Everyone who believes Yeshua is the Messiah is born of God. SOM, I believe Yeshua is the Messiah & by that belief that God gives to me, by the Holy Spirit that dwells in me I don’t practice sin, which means I am Christian, halleluYah !
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Paul definitely definitely never said Christ is God, Phil. 1:2 Grace be unto you, & peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Yeshua the Messiah. 1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him, and one Lord Yeshua the Messiah, by whom are all things, and we [who are born of the Spirit] live by him
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Hey SOM, I’m impressed by your relatively coherent argument in the first half of that comment! What you’ve provided references three separate entities, not this invention called ‘The Trinity’. As Ark suggests, you are well aware of the verses where Jesus discusses the god God as a completely separate being, going so far as saying the god God is greater than he is. The attempts at justifying this with reference to the invented ‘Trinity’ are laughable. The Bible is clear. I don’t claim to have any authority in this argument, I’m just going by what’s written in the book.
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violet,
The Christian God, the God revealed by Jesus is family, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
So there is only one God who is a family of three persons all who have the same substance (nature).
Since the atheist hasn’t the intellectual tools to understand the absurdity of atheism, that everything just happened all by itself, there is no hope at all for an atheist to make anything out of “God is family” except total nonsense.
What marvels is how atheists object so bitterly to those concepts they are unable to understand.
It’s as if the atheist blames the world for their own intellectual disability instead of trying to do something constructive about it.
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“So there is only one God who is a family of three persons all who have the same substance (nature).” Can you provide the passage in the Bible that explains this? Or even mentions it? Or even just hints a little at it?
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violet,
God as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are referred to by Jesus throughout the Gospels.
All I can recommend is pick up a Bible and actually read it, for a change.
The Bible is indeed cryptic.
It’s like God teaching the La Place transform to Kindergarteners.
Over the centuries, the Kindergarteners grew up, however.
Many concepts written about in the Bible are fleshed out over the centuries in modern science, modern political science, and classical philosophy.
That’s why one must study the greats like the Church Fathers, Saints Augustine and Aquinas, Plato, Aristotle, etc.
The problem with atheists is that they are still in Kindergarten.
That’s why nothing makes any sense to you.
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No actual Bible quote then. What a surprise!
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violet,
No, it is not a surprise.
And since when did atheists subscribe to the Protestant doctrine of sola scriptura?
Where in the Bible does it say that everything pertaining to Christ has to be in the Bible?
And did you know that Jesus never wrote one word of scripture?
That is because he was teaching a truly living faith which he imparted to his Apostles and which they imparted to their successors and so on down through the millennia.
Christianity was going strong for decades before any New Testament scripture was written.
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Well, it was going, how strong it was going before Constantine got involved is open to debate.
And once Constantine popped his clogs the Arians had the ruling temporarily overturned re the nature of the character, Jesus of Nazareth, so to say it was an established belief is simply spurious. It was all over the place and only once Theodosius had stamped it into law and set about annihilating all opposition did it become officially recognised doctrine.
Besides what do you know? You are not even considered a proper Christian by a vast multitude of Protestants the world over and will likely be burning in hell.
Why should anyone listen to a Catholic?
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You are spot on, Violet, and an observation picked up by very few.
There are many ”Christians” who claim not to belong to a church and simply ”follow Jesus”. But do they really?
No. Not in the least.
There would be no Christianity as we know it today if it were not for the character Saul of Tarsus.
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