a post about nazareth
Nazareth is not mentioned in any pre-Christian literature at all. Not a hint, not a whisper. Jesus of Where? by L’Ark
One of my oddest experiences was a visit to the church in Nazareth, as an atheist, in the company of a Jew, a Christian and Muslim. Sad to say that the days are past when such a collective visit seems possible. The church itself was particularly unremarkable, much like the town. Quite a contrast from the rambling, fascinating and oddly stunning Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem, which I can imagine would have the power to either disappoint someone looking for the cold and majestic splendour of the Vatican, or induce spiritual convulsions in anyone looking for an authentic Holy Land experience on their religious trip of a lifetime.
Places have vibes, and it’s difficult to tell what they come from. Whether it’s the people, the history, the buildings, the layout, the weather – I don’t know. Jerusalem is a place of deep vibe and yet Nazareth is empty. Could it be that the distinct lack of vibe in Nazareth comes down to the fact the town was established on a lie?
My dear blogging buddy Ark, former atheist commentator, had something of a bee in his bonnet about Nazareth. He claimed in the quoted post above that Nazareth didn’t exist, and is just another fabricated part of the fabricated story about the fictional character of Jesus.
My personal opinion is that it’s impossible to prove whether a settlement existed 2000 years ago in an approximate area. It’s impossible to judge if the sense of supposed size was exaggerated by enthusiastic followers. But most of all, for me, it’s irrelevant if it existed or not.
Much like their ability to ignore all the obvious falsehoods clearly present is every version of their religion, Christians are more than capable of ignoring every and any historical anomaly present in the stories of their religion.
Apart from the fact that at this distance in time from the key events in their religion it’s impossible to prove if places, things or people existed or not, I’m convinced that Christians even faced with overwhelming evidence against every historical fact of their religion would still find a way to believe in their god. And I know this because I know that when I was in their shoes, that’s exactly what I would have done.
Because in the mind of a believer, the god God is whatever we want him to be. Truth is whatever we feel makes most sense. If you want to find a way to remarry someone you love with all your heart after your first marriage has broken down, you reinterpret the very clear rules laid down in the Bible. If you want to find a way to live a life in a nice house with a nice car and every gadget of the day, you ignore the very clear instructions about possessions left by the character Jesus. If you want to find a way to continue a normal and non-judgemental relationship with your gay friend and her partner, you re-evaluate Christianity’s traditional stance on homosexuality.
If you want to find a way to take the Bible seriously and accept our modern day understanding of the world we live in, the Genesis creation story becomes allegorical. And if that key, first story can become allegory, quite frankly any other aspect of the Bible can too. Including whether a randomly mentioned small town existed, or even whether the man-god Jesus actually bothered to manifest on the planet.
Did you take that photo?
LikeLike
Oh, I wish you hadn’t asked that! It’s the first time I’ve resorted to one my partner took, as I haven’t taken any in ages. He’s looking so smug right now … (we’re a bit competitive)
LikeLike
*grin* Sounds vaguely familiar….
Do you use some sort of filter or is this sans filter? I’ve tried taking photos of stunning sunrises/sunsets and they all turn out shite.
LikeLike
Oh, it’s not entirely natural. I totally pumped up the saturation and contrast! 😉
LikeLike
I see, said the blind man…So it’s not totally the work of partner? He needed a little help.
LikeLike
As usual, we know where the talent lies. He clicked the shutter. I made it look nice. 😀
LikeLike
😉
LikeLike
Great job… but will it be enough….
LikeLike
Doesn’t look like it a rambling post about Nazareth is doing the trick. I did my best …
LikeLike
This could be more serious than we thought, Doctor….
LikeLike
Oh well, to be honest, it’s probably for the best. I’m sure he convinced more Christians to stay Christian, than doubters to climb over the fence. At his age he should really just stick to pottering in the garden. 😀
LikeLiked by 3 people
(Ssssh, things are looking up! Colorstorm’s jumped in a with a very tempting comment – bait released!)
LikeLiked by 1 person
Oh, I was going to say you should invite Colorstorm over and it might do the trick…. I’m going to hide over behind those bushes and watch…
LikeLiked by 1 person
Cool, watch they don’t go on fire!
LikeLike
Oh and if that doesn’t work, Becky’s addressed her latest post to him. Although that might have the opposite effect, hmmmm
LikeLike
Link
LikeLike
LikeLike
You’re a sweetheart, for a mischievous Pict. It’s good meat, fine and bloodied, but can he smell it where he is? He said he’s closed all the windows. You might have to knock on his door?
LikeLike
I knocked on his door with Colorstorm. I don’t want to tip the boat with Becky yet. We’ll see what happens. Back to your bush!
LikeLike
I never left it, shove off, you’ll attract bears 😉
LikeLike
Solid- but there are issues. Of course we CAN judge with reasonable certainty where there were or were not settlements ‘any time’ ago. If you don’t want to take my word for it, ask Sam (aka Dr. Hardy) at Conflict Antiquities (University of London), here on wordpress.
The relativist approach doesn’t really work with science.
LikeLike
Fair enough. But you can’t be sure what was what or exactly where when you’re talking about smaller settlements in a general area. Ark seemed to expect every settlement should have a specific written mention in the documents that survive from 2000 years ago. I would have thought it would be more pertinent that no-one from the immediate decades afterwards (and there were many detractors of Christianity) claimed Nazareth, or even Jesus, didn’t actually exist. They doubted he was who his followers said he was, and surely if there were invented place names in the story someone would have mentioned it.
LikeLike
“I would have thought it would be more pertinent that no-one from the immediate decades afterwards (and there were many detractors of Christianity) claimed Nazareth, or even Jesus, didn’t actually exist.”
Are you sure about that line? Christianity wasn’t, at first, a highly organized (or well documented) movement. That developed as the stories related to their beliefs gained momentum. We’re also talking about a group of very ignorant and primitive people during the first period (first 300 years). Also consider that artifact-wise, we have very, VERY little for that time.
Look up what Helen Ukpabio preaches. Some of her ideas involve witch children and mermaid spirits. She has a large following. If it ever became large enough, they would probably have a role in government. Once that became the case, questioning the existence of witch children or mermaid spirits would become a taboo- but that in no way serves as evidence that those things exist.
LikeLike
After reading the first line, I thought maybe I was reading one of Ark’s joke posts!
I actually saw a documentary the other day that was looking at early copper production around the time of King David in the Bible. Fascinating stuff, and they were looking to see if there is evidence that matches the Bible or if evidence showed that the Bible had exaggerated David’s kingdom. They found some fortress walls that led them to believe there was a significant kingdom.
Also, they followed the layers in the copper production area and found that a break in the production matched up with when some battle supposedly was. They also found Egyptian items at the site.
Couldn’t find the documentary online, but here’s an article that covers some of it:
http://www.jewishpress.com/news/proof-of-solomons-copper-mines-found-in-israel/2013/09/08/
Interesting stuff!
LikeLike
Of course there would be Egyptian items, Canaan was under Egyptian military rule until 1100BCE, at which time the Philistines (Sea People) landed on the Levant. This rather awkward fact ruins any notion of Joshua’s conquest narrative. Now, its true that the debate concerning whether or not Judah had an urban society in the 9th Century is still active (a debate therefore concerning the United Kingdom), the evidence seems to swing both ways. The Kingdom of Israel was far more advanced, so these mines are not surprising. I’ve spoken quite a bit with Ben-Yosef who’s mentioned in the article (and am still in contact with him), and the mines are most certainly real, but they could well have been Egyptian controlled. The story of David is another thing altogether; an invention (embellishment?) of the Judeans (from Judah), and this brings us back to the United Kingdom. If that was real there should be evidence in Judah (10th to 9th Centuries), and there simply isn’t. In Israel, yes, Judah, no. As Rabbi Sherwin T Wine said (A Provocative People):
Either way, it doesn’t really matter to the larger questions of the Jewish Origin myth which ends at Joshua and has has been roundly dismissed as geopolitical myth.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Yeah, most of that went right over my head. I have little doubt that many of the Biblical accounts are fudged around at least a bit, but what the documentary showed and talked about with how it seemed to fit with the Bible’s historical accounts in some ways was quite interesting!
Wish I could find the documentary … they even show the mines and go over how the whole copper production would have taken place. Quite the nasty line of work!
LikeLiked by 1 person
A quick Google for “Nazareth did not exist” found this: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/exploringourmatrix/2013/06/nazareth-in-the-first-century.html
The argument from the tombs is sufficient to show that I do not have the depth of specialist knowledge to make a judgment. But there are sufficient scholars saying that it did exist for me to rest easy a while yet.
LikeLike
Would it bother you much if it didn’t?
LikeLike
Well, “No mention of Nazareth”- apart from the gospels- what mention of other villages was there? Jesus being fictional makes no sense to me. Where would the stories come from? Why would anyone make them up? There were putative Messiahs about down to Bar Kokhba. Jesus was a wholly new kind of Messiah, preaching an entirely different kingdom of God.
LikeLike
I don’t know anything about it, and lean more towards agreeing with you. I’m just trying to lure Ark back in on a topic he finds hard to resist. Think he may truly have given up though.
LikeLike
I like to take the bible as allegory. This way, anything can be explained away. The only part I will cherry pick and not take as allegory are Job and Ecclesiastes. Those for me are very serious stuff.
LikeLike
Well said! I’ve never read Ecclesiastes, although don’t tell the Christians there’s such a glaring omission in my theological repertoire. 😉
LikeLike
I will not mention it, I promise.
If we grant the religious Nazareth, it would not be evidence of their son god.
LikeLike
VW
JohnZ,
etc.
Thank you very much for mentioning an obscure town which proves the reliability, accuracy, and inspiration of scripture.
Nazareth, a place of scorn; on the other side of the tracks as it were. So much so, that when Philip of Bethsaida found Nathaniel and told him of the Messiah: Nathaniel honestly asked: Can ANY good thing come out of Nazareth?.
Kind of like asking you if you ever heard of Pitcairn Pennsylvania. The lack of historical mention proves the foolishness of God, and silences all critics. He shall be called a Nazarene.
Hope this context helps ya. 😉
LikeLike
Oh wow V! What a stunning photo! Beautiful colours and what a view! Love it! 😀
As for Nazareth .. who cares? I know I don’t. 😆 Now, if you can bring me a trained Dinosaur and allow me to take shots of it, then you’ll be my hero! 😀
LikeLiked by 1 person
I’ll see what I can rustle up and send your way. 😀
LikeLiked by 1 person
Whoopeee! Cool!!!! 😆
LikeLike
Forget the pictures! I want to ride one of those beasts! 🙂 Oh, wait, you can take pictures of me riding the dinosaur…
LikeLiked by 1 person
Whahahahah Ruth! Oh yeah! Now that will be a photoshoot and a half and so much fun! 😆
LikeLike
“If God were suddenly condemned to live the life wich he has inflicted on men, he would kill himself.” – Alexander Dumas.
… And so he alledgedly did. Because what else than a suicide was the “blood sacrifice” Jesus performed in the Biblical story, instead of saving himself??? Well of course he knew all along that he would not really die, but that he would be transferred to the paradise soon enough, so it was not much of suicide nor much of a sacrifice for that matter…
However, Nazareth as a place name seems very much like an invented hoax. Not necessarily an intentional one, though. In the Biblical stories Jesus is referred as the “Nazarine”, but did it mean he was from a place called Nazareth, or did it simply mean he was A nazarine – a monk? The stories about describe him as an aschetic and even the imagery of him (the earliest pictures being hundreds of years younger, than the story) as a bearded long haired dude depict him as a Jewish monk would have looked like. He talked like a monk, he acted like a monk and was called a “nazarine”. If it walks like a duck and so forth…
In archaeology the absense of evidence can sometimes be interpreted as evidence of absense. The scientific method of researching the past only gives people a reasonable amount of certainty wether a certain place ever existed as claimed in (hundreds of years later) written sources, while religious faith gives people some sort of absolute sense of certainty even in the face of contradicting evidence. How can reason compete with faith?
Merry Yuletide.
LikeLike