violet’s bible study: god is love
God loves you Violet, and Archaeopteryx, and John Zande, and Arkenaten, and “bfa7″, and whoever else. On my life, I tell you, He loves us. truthisstrangerthanfiction
I think a positive side to most versions of Christianity in today’s societies is the emphasis they place on love. It’s certainly better than believing in and worshipping a deity you think hates everyone. After all, their Bible often talks of their god’s love, perhaps most famously in John 3:16.
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Unfortunately for the Christians who are positive enough to try and believe this, the Bible doesn’t actually paint such a consistently loving picture of the god character God. To illustrate, let’s do a short list!
1. The god character God drowned everyone he had created, apart from eight people, because he didn’t like them:
So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth.” Genesis 6:13
2. The god character God hated Esau (presumably because he was hairy, given there is no reason stated and such a big deal is made out of his body hair):
but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his hill country into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals. Malachi 1:3
3. Something about the command of the god character God against the people of Samaria suggests he didn’t love them. Maybe it’s just me …
The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open. Hosea 13:16
So, just a small selection from the Bible illustrating that the god character God, who is depicted as never changing, didn’t and doesn’t really love everyone. Let’s consider John 3:16 again:
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Yes, on a second reading, it says that anyone who doesn’t believe in him will perish. On reflection, that doesn’t sound very loving either, does it?
it does sound loving. Every time you read the bible and you are in disagreement, you are reading it wrong.
Maybe the god suffers from multiple personality disorder
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Clearly does! Three knocking around in one being, with personality and temperament swings that would make tantrum-ing toddler blush!
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Blush in shame
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It’s a funny kind of love: “Adore me, or burn in hell… Your choice, but you’ve been warned and I’m not kidding… and i’m watching, always watching, I see where you go”
I’ve forgotten now which son, or cousin, or whatever it is, but Esau (according to OT scholars today) is actually a tribe/kingdom which the Judeans (from Judah, pre-Judea) warred with in the 8th Century BCE, so they got embodied into a “person” with a part in the whole Abraham, Isaac, Jacob family drama, and done over. It really reads so much better when you see it this way. Makes a lot more sense.
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I bet the OT is really rather interesting and impressive if you just read it as cool little mythical and metaphorical stories. The problem only comes when people try to take it seriously and attempt to drive public policy with its silly (but cool) little stories and commands.
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“if you just read it as cool little mythical and metaphorical stories.”</cite?
Hard foir me to see the "cool" in it even when taken as mythical or metaphorical. I still find it difficult to get the metaphorical meaning of scriptures such as ripping up pregnant women, dashing infants against the rocks, burning and stoning the daughters to death who had sex outside of marriage, sending she bears to rip up kids, and killing everyone in other tribes except for virgin girls, turning them into sex and domestic slaves, etc.
Great post, btw.
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Is it not all just fun and games from Ye Olden Days? Everyone was up to it. And think of the happy stories, like when that guy had to kill his son but got stopped just in time, and that time all the first borns were killed so that other people could go free, and that happy story when the innocent man lost his entire family on a god God dare and then lived in that whale. I did lots of colouring in to those happy stories as a child. Nice to see you back, I was wondering if you’re on a blog break.
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Thanks Violet. I’m still around, and fairly active, but I don’t think you follow up on other people’s posts as much these day (understandably so).
Oh and speaking of metaphors — reading bfa7’s comment “I am a vessel that God uses to do righteousness through, I am God’s slave, the Holy Spirit that dwells inside me makes me obey God.” reminded me of what happens when a parasite such as the Lancet Fluke takes over the brain of an ant.
You only need to watch the first 2 minutes.
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I feel slightly concerned about bornfromabove. I hope someone’s looking out for him in the real world, or he might end up in the belly of a sheep!
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As do I. Sigh.
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He’s Brandon, minus the intellect.
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LOL!
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Violet, you’re doing it wrong. The simple solution is to just ignore everything in the Bible that doesn’t make sense. That’s what I did as a catholic for 41 years. Eventually the cognitive dissonance made me insane, but really, that’s a small price to pay for eternal love and someone who got nailed to a tree for you. Wouldn’t you agree?
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Absolutely Violet! When I’m ‘researching’ posts like this, it invariably brings back the childhood feeling of discomfort. I always felt sorry for Esau and felt uncomfortable that he wasn’t the Good Blessed Guy in the story, while absorbing the message that scheming Jacob was the Goody. Just as well the god character God has set my moral compass!
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Well said Violet. Sorry for butting in, but when I saw this comment from you, I knew I had to say something. I felt the same way as well. Especially where Job was concerned.
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Yes, but the Bible’s god gave Job a new family, and since women and children are property, one’s about as good as another – and besides, it was a bar bet, so anything goes —
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Arch, you’re such a wise ass! 😆
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You’re only saying that because it’s true —
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Of course! I will never lie to you. 😆
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Me either, but I’ve been known to re-shape the truth —
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As long as you don’t re-shape your face. Those tattoos looks good on it. 😆
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If I were capable of doing that, I would have chosen a shape that didn’t frighten children and other small animals.
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Now you are not re-shaping the truth at all. You are lying shamelessly. 😆
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“Especially where Job was concerned.” Yes, what a horrible story! I don’t think they mentioned that the god character God killed all his children when I learned about Job in Sunday School. We just drew pictures of a man in giant fish, which seemed fun at the time.
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Yes, when you’re a child, those things sounds like stories. Just shows you how they brainwash us as kids.
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Vi, I think you may be confusing Job with Jonah —
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Haha, proving the point I haven’t read the bible in a while!
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LOL! Who cares? Job or Jonah….they’re all the same. Just different staging sets, just like in the soppy soapies. 😆
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Talking of Jonah, did he swallow the fish or the fish swallowed him?
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Will we ever know the real story Mak? 😆
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I doubt it.
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All I know is, I ain’t swallowing the story!
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It’s particularly twisted that the verse they say most imbodies God’s love directly refers to human sacrifice. Who needs hugs when you can kill someone?
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Beautifully put!
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I can’t wait to see how the theists tweak this —
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No tweaking here, I definitely don’t believe God loves everyone equally, the New Testament makes that very clear 🙂
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Thank goodness.That must definitely count me out then, and thank the gods.
I was beginning to feel decidedly uncomfortable at the thought of that meglomaniacal, racist genocidal despot.
My skin crawls. You can have him; Every inch of him.
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“I can’t wait to see how the theists tweak this ”
I think they’ve all abandoned my fine blog – a combination of atheist pile-ons and bornfromabove throwing too many Bible verses at them that contradict their beliefs. I’ll have to start a new blog incognito …
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“I’ll have to start a new blog incognito …” – OK, but be sure and let everyone know who you are —
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Yeah of course! 😉
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God definitely does not love everyone equally.
Rom 9:16 So then [God’s gift] is not a question of human will and human effort, but of God’s mercy. [It depends not on one’s own willingness nor on his strenuous exertion as in running a race, but on God’s having mercy on him.]
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, I have raised you up for this very purpose of displaying My power in [dealing with] you, so that My name may be proclaimed the whole world over.
Rom 9:18 So then God has mercy on whomever He wills (chooses) and He hardens (makes stubborn and unyielding the heart of) whomever He wills.
Rom 9:19 You will say to me, Why then does God still find fault {and} blame us [for sinning]? For who can resist {and} withstand His will?
Rom 9:20 But who are you, a mere man, to criticize {and} contradict {and} answer back to God? Will what is formed say to him that formed it, Why have you made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same mass (lump) one vessel for beauty {and} distinction {and} honorable use, and another for menial {or} ignoble {and} dishonorable use?
Rom 9:22 What if God, although fully intending to show [the awfulness of] His wrath and to make known His power {and} authority, has tolerated with much patience the vessels (objects) of [His] anger which are ripe for destruction?
Rom 9:23 And [what if] He thus purposes to make known {and} show the wealth of His glory in [dealing with] the vessels (objects) of His mercy which He has prepared beforehand for glory,
Rom 9:24 Even including ourselves whom He has called, not only from among the Jews but also from among the Gentiles (heathen)?
Rom 9:25 Just as He says in Hosea, Those who were not My people I will call My people, and her who was not beloved [I will call] My beloved.
Rom 9:26 And it shall be that in the very place where it was said to them, You are not My people, they shall be called sons of the living God.
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John 3:16 isn’t tàlking about the planet, the Greek word for “world” in John 3:16 “kosmon” means “orderly arrangement of mankind”, the world that Christ is talking about in John 3:16 is not the planet, John 17:6 proves that truth. John 17:6 I have manifested Your name to the men that You [God] gave me out of the world. John 17:9 I pray for them, I pray not for the world, but for them which You [God] hast given me; for they are Yours.
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Who are you talking to? No one’s listening. Can’t get enough gullible minds on your own blog?
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LOL! I am speaking truth so that people can see that John 3:16 does not say God loves everyone, I would think that you would care about the truth, but I guess not, you only care about bashing the truth 🙂
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What would you know about truth, you believe the Bible!
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I don’t understand, I am posting things that agree with Violet’s blog, and yet you are fighting me, I am speaking the truth that is in the Bible, I am teaching the truth about John 3:16, that very few people teach, when people say John 3:16 says God loved everyone on the planet, that causes confusion, because the Bible clearly says that God does not love everyone on the planet, my comment was to show people the truth, something you clearly don’t care about 🙂
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Your comment was designed to show people YOUR VERSION of the truth, which I challenge.
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LOL!
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Arch, since you don’t believe, then Christ definitely didn’t die for you, so what I speak has nothing to do with you 🙂
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If you’re going to come onto a blog I comment on, and spout nonsense, I have every right to question it. If you can’t take the heat —
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LOL! It may be nonsense to you, but to those who are supposed to see the truth, besides why do you care, Christ didn’t die for you, God doesn’t love you the same as God loves those who Christ died for, you don’t believe in God, so the truth that I teach is definitely not for you 🙂
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Edit: it should say, “but not to those who are supposed to see the truth”
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So exactly why did he die for you BFA? I am still waiting for a proper ( full ) answer besides led-by-the-flesh.
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Ark, it’s very simple, Yeshua the Messiah died for me because God chose the Messiah to die for me, I definitely did not by my own free will choose to believe that God’s Son is the Messiah, God persuaded me to believe that His Son is the Messiah, & then God baptized me in the Holy Spirit & I was born from above (born of the Spirit), which means that I am a vessel that God uses to do righteousness through, I am God’s slave, the Holy Spirit that dwells inside me makes me obey God.
Yeshua the Messiah died to save me from my sins, Yeshua the Messiah died for me so that I would no longer be led by the flesh. Yeshua the Messiah died for me so that I could be born from above, which means that I believe Yeshua is the Messiah, & by that belief that God has given me, I no longer am led by the flesh also known as “practice sin”.
1John 5:1 Everyone who believes that Yeshua is the Messiah [the Son of God] is born of God [born from above]
1 John 3:9 No one born of God [born from above] practices sin [is led by the flesh]
The Greek word for ” faith”, “pistis” means persuasion, “faith” is God’s divine persuasion, one can only be born from above by God’s divine persuasion. No one by free will is born from above.
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I’m looking for a god who isn’t so self-absorbed that he or she feels the need for slaves – could your god recommend anyone? I mean they must belong to a fraternity or a union or something, don’t they? I’ve been sitting in the parking lot at Home Depot for weeks now, hoping one will come along looking for employment, but all I ever get is, “No hablo Ingles, pinche cabron!” I wish I knew what that meant —
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LOL!
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You see, I specifically said don’t go on about being led by the flesh as if you are being dragged to church/ to your god by your damn foreskin and yet, there you go again.
Are you struggling with basic comprehension/reading skills?
Did being reborn involve a partial lobotomy?
If not, I am happy. Now, can you behave like an ordinary ( if not normal) person just for the time it takes to type a comment and simply respond using everyday language?
Please itemize you sin(s) so that we can evaluate just how naughty you were.
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LOL! Ark, sin is sin, so why does it matter what I did before God made me born of the Spirit?
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Ah … so there were specifics.
I just love a juicy conversion story that’s all.
It’s the Nosy Parker in me.
I can’t help myself.
And maybe you have a different sin to the usual, Pills, Porn, and Puza ( Xhosa for the demon drink)
I am all ears.
Pray tell …
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LOL! Ark, it had nothing to do with anything I did, & everything to do with God giving me the faith to believe in His Son, & then by that faith that God gave me, God baptized me in the Holy Spirit, which means I was born from above. I definitely did not want to be Christian, I fought with God for 3 months about being Christian, but God humbled me & made me stop fighting, my conversion had nothing to do with me, it had nothing to do with anything that I did, or said, all that happened was God persuaded me to believe in His Son, & then God baptized me in the Holy Spirit, & I was born from above, God did all the work thru me
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So how come hasn’t paid me and Violet a visit?
I know Arch is a very naughty boy.
Serious, why is he so arbitrary?
And what is so special about you, that you were picked?
You didn’t even indulge in a joint and a Hustler? You sure?
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“I know Arch is a very naughty boy.”
Huh?
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Denial ain’t just a river in Egypt. ~Mark Twain
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There is nothing special about me, to be honest living for God isn’t easy, since I am born of the Spirit I have no choice but to obey God, & that can be very painful, in fact the last 7 years have been very tough, God has taken a lot away from me to show me that He is my security, to show me that He is my sole provider, I don’t have a car, & I have very little money, but I am making it because God is providing for me as only He can.
Ark, you never know what can happen, I certainly did not want to be a Christian, but God made that happen for His purpose & God can do that to anyone that He has chosen to be born from above 🙂
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He says, “sin is sin,” as though masturbation and murder are on equal footing, but murder isn’t nearly as much fun as it’s cracked up to be!
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So he’s just a wanker?
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Thou sayest —
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Said by BFA: “Ark, you never know what can happen, I certainly did not want to be a Christian, but God made that happen for His purpose & God can do that to anyone that He has chosen to be born from above.”
BFA, are you implying that Ark could be reborn a Christian? If so, you have a level of faith that should get you nominated for sainthood. I can’t really see it happening myself.
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Ain’t No, I definitely believe anyone that has been predestined by God to be born from above (born of the Spirit), will be born from above, Arch, or anyone else could be one of God’s chosen people, & be born from above at anytime, it’s all up to God. I definitely did not want to be a Christian, but God made it happen for His purpose, so I know if God can make me born from above, then God can make anyone else born from above too. 🙂
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Question, BFA – what is there above us that makes one “born from above”? Every school child knows that “above” and “below” exist only within the vicinity of an object with sufficient mass as to exhibit gravitational attraction.
Every object in the Universe that has a mass exerts an attractive force on every other object in the Universe with a mass, and that the magnitude of that force is proportional to the mass of both objects and inversely proportional to the distance between them.
Regarding earth, the area surrounding it that holds the greatest gravitational attraction is comprised of four layers. The one most familiar to us is the troposphere, the layer that extends from the ground up to between nine and 17 kilometres, and contains most of what we would consider ‘atmosphere’. The troposphere is thick and stable, making it ideal for most commercial air travel. Next comes the stratosphere, up to 50 kilometres or so, then the mesosphere, which is where the US government says ‘space’ begins. The outermost layer, called the exosphere, is the vastest of the Earth’s atmospheric layers, extending from about 690 to 10,000 kilometres above the Earth’s surface.
Beyond the exosphere, there is no “up” or “down,” which means that there is no “above” or below, so which of the four layers are you born from?
1.) the troposphere
2.) the stratosphere
3.) the mesosphere
4.) the exosphere
Beyond the exosphere, both you (if you were traveling in space) and the earth are now orbiting the sun independently and now, for you, “down,” or “below” is toward the sun and “up,” or “above” is away from it. Once outside the Solar System, “down,” or “below” points toward the giant Black Hole at the center of the galaxy, and “up,” or “above,” away from it.
So exactly which “above” are you born from?
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Wow! That’s pretty cool, the term “born from above” simply means “born of the Spirit”, or “born of God”, one who is born from above, is born of the Spirit also known as born of God.
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So why don’t you say, “born from sideways,” “born from in front,” or, “born from behind”? What does “above” have to do with it?
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Arch, in John 3, Christ says to Nicodemus, one must be born from above to see & enter the kingdom of God. The Greek word “another” means both “again” & “from above”, many people have been led to believe that Christ said ” born again”, & that’s where the false teaching comes from that says, “you must be born again to enter the kingdom of God”, to be born from above means to be born of God 🙂
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But that’s only because those anonymous, superstitious, scientifically-ignorant Bronze and Iron Age authors believed that their god lived just above the clouds, but we’ve been to the moon and found no trace of heaven, so theists decided, in light of scientific discoveries, to move their god to a point beyond time and space – a fictitious place that they know for certain that Humans can never go, any more than they can go to Oz, Wonderland or Narnia.
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If that’s what you believe I respect that, being born from above, simply means “born of the Spirit”. A Christian is someone who is born of the Spirit, no one born of the Spirit practices sin, anyone that claims to be Christian that practices sin is not born of the Spirit, & therefore is not Christian. Priests that molest children are not born of the Spirit, preachers that use the Bible to manipulate people into giving them money are not born of the Spirit
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Good luck with your uneventful life —
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Thank you, I appreciate your kindness 🙂
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And you can save all of those links to your blog that you’ve been peppering this site with, no one in their right mind is going to go over there and read still more of your nonsense.
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LOL! I am sharing the truth to whomever is supposed to see it, I only share a link when I am led to, I started my blog on Aug 11, 2014, & as of now I have 5,134 views, people are definitely interested in what I am teaching 🙂
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Thanks! I went over and read loads. 🙂
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So you’re a masochist – good to know.
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The theory of Presuppositionalism, simply, is that Christians know the truth of the Bible therefore know the Truth, and if atheists argue with them they speak past each other. Different presuppositions, like different axioms, mean dialogue is impossible.
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John 17:2 makes it very clear that God had Christ die only for God’s chosen people. The teaching that says Christ died for everyone is absolutely false. Since Christ only died for God’s chosen people, then John 3:16 clearly is not saying God loves everyone on the planet.
John 17:3 As You [God] hast given him [Christ] authority over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as You [God] have given him.
John 17:4 And this is life eternal that they may know You the only true God, and Yeshua the Messiah (Christ), whom You have sent.
Also John 17:4 proves the truth that Christ is not God.
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I agree. Now if only we could establish the veracity of this character, Yeshua Ben Josef.
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Do you believe this god you speak of is benevolent? He is characterised as being thoroughly unpleasant and cruel – why would you want to:
1. believe in him?
2. worship him?
3. tell other people about him?
I like that you interpret the Bible is more straight-forward fashion than other Christians, but I must admit, I do prefer the deluded to be deluded about something half pleasant.
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Violet, I believe in God because God has chosen me to believe in Him, I did not choose by free will to be Christian, in fact I fought the idea of being Christian, but because God had His Son die for me, I had no choice, God humbled me, & then persuaded me to believe in His Son, & then baptized me in the Holy Spirit, I worship God because the Holy Spirit in me, makes me do what God wants me to do, I do not tell others about God or Christ unless, God brings people to me to ask questions, then God has me answer their questions, I do not invade anyone’s personal space to talk about Christ, God brings people to me, and then God gives me the words to speak. I used to force my beliefs on people, but then the Holy Spirit made me stop doing that, I do not judge the world, I do not tell others how to live their life, I do, however, judge those who claim to be Christian that do not speak the truth, or practice sin, and turn away from them.
When people say God loves everyone, that brings confusion because clearly the Bible does not say that, honestly, I would much rather teach that God loves everyone, & Christ died for everyone, & everyone has the free will to choose Christ, because that teaching is much easier, than telling people the truth, that no one by free will can choose Christ, & Christ didn’t die for everyone, & God definitely does not love everyone equally, teaching that is not fun, but I am born from above, therefore I must teach the truth about the Bible because that is what God wants me to do so that people will turn away from those that claim to be Christian that speak false.
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“God had His Son die for me” – If your god had his son die, it was for himself and the archaic Hebrew laws of sacrifice for a “sin offering” – we didn’t need it, and if we did, the need was artificially created. Your god has deep-seated self esteem issues, in that he constantly needs praise and assurance.
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“God brings people to me to ask questions”
Do you believe the god is benevolent, or does that not matter? Also, do you not feel a bit sorry for the all the billions of people he doesn’t bother with?
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Yes, Violet I do believe God is benevolent, but God can do whatever He wants with His creation, the Old Testament clearly states that makes peace & creates evil (adversity), God gave the Satan (the adversary) in Job the authority to kill Job’s family, the Satan was working on behalf of God, Job 42:11 says everything that happened to Job was from God, and the New Testament also says that God will men to kill children and rape women, and God says that He will make people commit cannibalism, Jeremiah 19:9 And I, God shall make them eat the flesh of their sons and daughters and they will eat one another’s flesh during the stress of the siege imposed by the enemies who seek their lives.
Isaiah 13:16 Their children also “shall be” dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives “ravished” (shakab – to rape).
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Thanks for bringing these verses to my attention. I’m quite sure you can’t describe a being who orders these kinds of atrocities as ‘benevolent’. You’re suffering from the same doublethink problem as the rest of the Christians after all. I suppose it comes with the territory.
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Not true, God is kind, but He also can do whatever He wants with His creation, & you’re welcome for those verses, for years those verses were hidden from me, but after God removed me from false teaching, God showed me those verses. The truth has been hidden for a long time, for centuries people have been speaking false about Christianity & the Bible, it’s very sad how many people have been deceived by false teaching.
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Have you considered seeking psychiatric help? I realize you haven’t a lot of money, otherwise you’d never have sold that guitar, but there are free programs and ones with a sliding pay scale.
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LOL! I don’t need psychiatric help, the Holy Spirit that dwells inside me protects me from the flesh that wants to destroy me, without the Holy Spirit, I probably would need psychiatric help, although before I was born from above I did go to counseling, but that didn’t help much, the only thing that could change my wicked heart, was God, & God did, 20 years ago, halleluYah !
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Oh dear.
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BFA, sometimes we need medical/psychiatric help in addition to any spiritual practices we have. I do worry about you…is there anyone in your real life who you can rely on for assistance if you should need any?
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LOL! God is taking care of me so I am fine, thank you. I am a Bible teacher & God is providing all that I need through that job that He had given to me, halleluYah !
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Edit: I meant to say, “the job that God has given to me”
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There, there … it will be all right.
Ssssh everybody. No one make any loud,sudden movements.
Vi, you keep him talking,I’ll dial 911.
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I’ll do it! What’s the number?
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LOL! You all are hilarious !
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Sorry, I am typing from a Tablet, I wasn’t done with my comment, edit: it should say, “the Old Testament clearly states that God makes peace & creates evil”, & it should say, ” and the Old Testament also says that God will have men kill children & rape women”, I do feel sorry for those who are not chosen, but there is nothing I can do, God is the one that makes the choice, and I accept that because that’s God’s will, God makes the choice, not man, therefore I leave everything to God, I know this, anyone that is chosen will be born from above, before he or she dies physically, that’s a guarantee, because Christ died for God’s chosen people
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What mindless drivel!
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LOL! I am answering Violet’s question, not talking to you Arch, but your comment made me laugh, thank you for that 🙂
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Mindless drivel is mindless drivel, regardless of to whom it’s addressed.
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Arch, you’re funny
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I work at it —
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“Christ died for God’s chosen people”
If the god character God created everyone and is omniscient, then all Christians have to believe this. It’s interesting how they attempt to avoid acknowledging this would be the case.
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Well, that truth is hidden, false teachers need peoples money so they say Christ died for everyone, & anyone has the free will to accept Christ, when the truth is, Christ died only for the sheep, not the goats, Christ didn’t die for Judas, therefore Christ didn’t die for everyone, the sheep are the Jews & the non-Jews that believe God’s Son Yeshua is the Christ (the Messiah) that no longer practice sin, & no one can come to Christ unless it has been granted by God (John 6:65).
The majority of people who claim to be Christian have been taught false. I was taught false for 18 years, the majority of people that claim to be Christian do not speak the truth about Christianity & the Bible. The New Testament was not written about our time period, “New Jerusalem” was created after the temple was destroyed in AD 70, the sheep are New Jerusalem
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If you’re actually curious as to what actually Christians believe about God, engaging with bornfromabove is a bit like making a straw man. His words are some of the most heretical I’ve read. He’s honestly a pretty easy target to dismantle and point out incongruity, but he obviously doesn’t represent more than his own misguided ideas. And nothing close to Judeo-Christianity as described in the Bible
If you actually are interested in having a real discussion I’m interested to know if you have read the Bible in its entirety or just looked at some of the select verses you mention?
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LOL! The typical response from an person claiming to be Christian, my beliefs line up perfectly with the Bible, so it is you who are the herectic 🙂
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Thanks for your comment Lydia, it’s good to have input from the more traditional Christian perspective as well. I know more or less what Christians believe about their god. The objective of some of these posts is to point out the inconsistencies and contradictions, in an attempt to get Christians to ponder just how sure they can be about their conclusions.
You, for example, encouraging women to stay at home, abandon work and be submissive to their husbands. Jesus had lots of female followers (some of whom were leaders in the early Church) who weren’t content with just being housewives, and the the ‘excellent wife’ in Proverbs (31:10-31) clearly is a shrewd businesswoman.
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I think you may have misread my posts. I never once told women to abandon work, or to “just be housewives” though I also don’t think their is any shame in being a stay at home wife and mother. There is nothing that says a woman cannot work outside the home.
But as I asked before, I’m wondering if you have read the bible in its entirety or if you only pick certain verses?
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Apologies for the false accusation. I’ve got a terrible memory, I should always check before I type. You get the picture though, the Bible is broad enough in content to justify a crazy range of behaviours – and every person within that range believes they have the Truth.
I doubt I have read the whole Bible, and I certainly wouldn’t put myself through it now. It’s terminally dull in many parts. Being brought up in a strict religious household and attending every religious occasion possible through my childhood and adolescence, I’m sure I’ve been exposed to most of the Bible either in sermons, youth groups, home readings or whatever.
Anyway, I think the verses I choose are clear enough in content to illustrate the points, without reference to the whole. I’ve read justifications for these verses and many more that I use, and quite frankly it’s all weak. The only honest Christians are those who recognise that the god character they believe in and worship is a horrendously cruel depiction of a deity, which self-proclaims to be love. Most of us want to believe there’s something bigger than us out there that loves and protects us, the obvious extension of parental love. I believe Christians project their need for this kind of love on to the god character God in the Bible, and, as someone points out above, cognitive dissonance does the rest.
Out of curiosity, would you kill your children if they consistently acted against your wishes? That’s essentially what the god character God does with the flood. Or can you truly see a justification for genocide, wiping out an entire group of people with specific reference to pregnant women? If you see this as the work of a benevolent creator, you’ve got some doublethink to work on.
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“Why should I allow that same god to tell me how to raise my kids, who had to drown his own?”
— Bertrand Russell —
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I would think if you are truly interested in debating and discussing something you would employ the academic rigor of actually reading it though. No matter how dull or how many excerpts you’ve been exposed to. I certainly wouldn’t debate about Bertrand Russel or Dawkins if I hadn’t read them for myself.
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Oh I don’t know. I discuss Islam and I haven’t read the whole Koran (even more boring the Bible). I discuss the Church of the Latter-day Saints and I haven’t read the Book of Mormon (although I definitely plan on doing that) and I criticise Jehovah’s Witnesses without delving deeply in the Watchtower. Worse still, I heartily criticise the Catholic Church and I’ve never been to a Mass or read the catechism or read the complete works of Augustine of Hippo and his ilk.
I feel perfectly qualified to discuss the Bible, which I was immersed in for the first 18 years of my life. If you were brought up by Dawkins freaks and attended multiple lectures on his works a week for 18 years, you wouldn’t feel you had to actually read through all his books as an adult to comment on his beliefs.
Anyway, I look forward to reading your criticism of the quotes I’ve given above, as you obviously feel I haven’t done them justice.
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I’m not interested in debating with someone who isn’t actually interested in a real debate. Listening to other people interpret the bible for you is very different than reading it for yourself. But if you ever do finally take the time to read what you claim you know then perhaps it would be worth engaging with you.
All the best
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That’s a shame. It would have been interesting to read a Christian attempting to defend the idea of a loving god, given what is clearly stated in the Bible.
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Oh, perhaps you’d feel more comfortable discussing it with Ain’t No Shrinking Violet, who comments below that she’s read it cover to cover several times? Promise I won’t interrupt with my unacademic opinion. 🙂
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Perhaps she finds me too hostile? I’ve been trying to tone it down, but I can’t seem to be as neutral as you, Vi. Seems some people find me to be the equivalent of sandpaper on their face. It’s shame, cuz I’m actually a really nice lady.
Also, since becoming an atheist, I’ve discovered to my great amusement that some other christians don’t consider catholics to be “real” christians…they consider us to be on the same level as Satanism! I simply adore that idea. 😀
PS If you do decide to read that horrid tomb of senselessness (aka the bible) in it’s entirety, there are some great tracks that will get you through it in a year. That’s how I read it so many times. You dedicate yourself to a certain amount of reading each day…you must be very devoted and diligent, not easily prone to boredom or confusion, and you must suppress your logical mind entirely (to the point where your eyes will start bulging out of your head). After that, you can start reading catholic apologetics, which will make you want to stab your bulging eyes out with a fork. I’ve read both, and can’t actually recommend either. Wait, is my hostility leaking through again? Sorry!
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LOL — I really like you. You are definitely no shrinking violet. 😀
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Never been a Catholic, Ain’t No – dated a couple briefly – but I was actually amazed, upon reading the Catholic The New American Bible, just how forthcoming the book was in relation to the scripture.
In sections both before and after their presentation of the Bible, they discuss how the Bible was written. The clearly state that the Torah was NOT written by Moses, and discuss the Documentary Hypothesis, regarding the four groups of priests who actually DID write it over about a 500-year span of time. It even takes you through Genesis, via footnotes, and points out which portions were written by the Yahwist Source, which the Elohist, and which the Priestly Source.
It was in these same footnotes, that the book points out that although Genesis tells us that Abraham left Egypt rich in cattle and camels in 2300 BCE, the camel wouldn’t be domesticated for another 1300 years.
I was actually amazed that it would be so honest, considering its musical parishes game with pedophile priests.
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I agree, there’s been major improvement in some of the transparency, but ultimately the church didn’t have a choice with the internet being so available. The mormons are doing the same thing.
The fact that modern catholic church encourages reading of the bible is nothing less than a miracle…just a short time ago they forbid anyone but clergy from reading it, and they did the mass in latin before the 1960s. Please note, this makes them no less crazy in my eyes…they’re just more transparent for the sake of public image. Start reading catholic apologetics for a serious dose of insanity!
As for the pedophile priests, I can’t even grasp that level of criminal behavior by the church. The diocese my church is in just declared bankruptcy to start paying the sexual abuse victims their legal due.
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“they did the mass in latin before the 1960s.”
The RCC didn’t discontinued Latin mass until 1969. I was still a wee one then but I learned to speak in tongues. 😀
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I think Vatican II gave permission to start doing masses in English in 1965, but a lot of churches didn’t actually start doing so until years later (it was supposed to be a slow, gradual change in the church so as not to be overly disruptive).
My former church STILL does masses in latin…but at least there’s an English version available to those who care to understand what’s being said. People attend the Latin mass for it’s heavy ritual, which is pleasing if you’re into all that (which I was for decades…ugh). So I guess I speak in tongues too…cool! 😉
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Does this bring back memories?
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Didn’t know it would be so scrunched – best viewed full-screen —
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The Bible tells us – and it may have been Paul – that “tongues” is the language of angels – if so, keep them away from me!
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Yes, I know this. Actually, I’ve written a post (and when I get a new website, I’ll reprint it) that demonstrates that from 600 CE to 1600 CE, when there were simply too many fires for even the Vatican to put out, anyone in possession of a Bible written in any language but Latin, was put to death. John Hus, for example, was actually burned at the stake, using English translation Bibles as kindling. One father was burned at the stake – not for apostasy, not for blasphemy, but for translating “The Lord’s Prayer” into English, so his children could understand it.
Sometimes I really wish there were a heaven, so that I could watch those people being judged/
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Arch, during my years being raised an active Catholic, we were never encouraged to read the Bible. The Catechism, yes. It wasn’t until after I left the church that I delved into the Bible and studied it extensively for many years. Perhaps the RCC is still hoping its members don’t read the Bible. Can’t hardly blame them. It keeps the coffers full.
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John Selden wrote this when the prohibition was lifted:
Clearly he understood that once people were allowed to examine scripture for themselves, it was the beginning of the end of organized religion. It’s a slow process, but it’s unfolding.
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“Seems some people find me to be the equivalent of sandpaper on their face.” – Who doesn’t like having their face licked by a cat?
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OK, that fantastic video was of charismatic fundamentalist protestants. Catholics speaking in tongues is very rare, and if it happens at all, it’s dignified and calm…we remain kneeling in our pews and appear quite sane. We not the crazy protestants Arch!! 😉
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The Catholicand Protestant hierarchies just have different methodologies of conning people.
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Hell yes, it’s ALL a con, no doubt in my mind. 🙂
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Crazy is as crazy does —
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So if I was a crazy catholic for 41 years (and I have no problem calling myself crazy for that), what am I now that I’ve been an atheist for six months? Still crazy, or slightly less crazy, or just plain irritating? Everyone who knows me in real life calls me “the arm of the devil,” but I find that a rather long and cumbersome title.
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“Everyone who knows me in real life calls me “the arm of the devil,”
LOL —- you must live in the Bible Belt. I’ve heard worse though. You got off lightly. 😉
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I live in Minnesota! If I were in the bible belt they probably would have burned me at the stake. 🙂
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Hahaha — try living in the most religious, conservative state in the Union and being a woman at that. I am their worst nightmare because I have both brains and boobs. 😈
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“what am I now that I’ve been an atheist for six months?” – In recovery.
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“I’ve been trying to tone it down, but I can’t seem to be as neutral as you, Vi”
Wow, just read on another comment that you’ve only been out of it for six months! I’m surprised you can even talk so openly about it. I avoided religion like the plague for almost 20 years before I got into this blogging lark and felt comfortable looking it in the face. I can be neutral because it’s become an odd curiosity for me now. It’s difficult to be neutral when you’re still raw from the split.
“since becoming an atheist, I’ve discovered to my great amusement that some other christians don’t consider catholics to be “real” christians”
I love that too! People have no sense of history. The Catholic Church is particularly hilarious in a lot of ways though.
And I doubt I’ll ever have enough time on my hands, and be bored enough, to read the Bible cover to cover. Especially since it’s become a challenge point from Christians!
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I wonder if the part of the Bible that suggests man was created in God’s image was actually due to a dyslexic translator inadvertently getting the order wrong?
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Jason, you may be on to something. 😉
“The gods have never known more than the men who created them.” ~archaeopteryx1
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Lydia, I have read the entire bible backwards, forwards, and sideways, about 20X through my four decades long imprisonment in the catholic cult. The Bible didn’t makes sense to me on the 1st reading and it didn’t make sense to me on the 20th reading. Asking an atheist to spend a year of their life reading something that clearly makes no logical sense right from the first page of genesis, is ridiculous. Go ahead and tell me I was never a real christian because the scriptures were never “illuminated” for me…I know otherwise. My brain broke after 41 years of indoctrination, and I’m only just now getting my senses back.
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Hilarious, Jason. The best comment you have ever written. And you know what … probably more truth in there than people could ever imagine.
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A religious person (Lydia) accusing another religious person of HERESY on an atheist’s blog? How delightfully ironic! 😀
Violet, you have quite a fun corner here on the internet. Do these kinds of things happen often?
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Those are epic battles. You sit on the side and just cheer them on, making sure all the time you don’t get your clothes soiled.
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It’s great, isn’t it? I love Christians getting into heresy battles.
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Love your posts V and though I don’t comment often, it’s always a delight to come here. Sometimes the comments are so funny, I can’t help but laugh. 😆
Everything you said here were mainly the reason why I always had fights with the people in the church we belonged to. I grew up in the Old Apostolic faith and they never liked my questions. The answers were either always ‘It’s God’s will’ or ‘You shouldn’t question God’ and I would get furious and tell them ‘but’ God gave me my own will and what kind of God doesn’t want you to question him and not give answers? If I tell my children not to do something, they want to know why and I have to give them an answer. I also told them that I do not want to know a ‘God’ like this. As far as I am concerned, he should be loving and forgiving and according to their bible, it isn’t so.
One of my subjects in my senior year was also Bible studies and that is where I realised that you can’t believe everything that is written by man. Most of us go through life believing what others tell us. We shouldn’t. I am a Googlist and I don’t believe anything I read unless I know from own experience that it might be true. Even then I don’t know if I should believe it for a fact. 😆 That’s what makes life so interesting, doesn’t it? 😀 ♥
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Good to see you Sonel!
“If I tell my children not to do something, they want to know why and I have to give them an answer.”
Absolutely! I sometimes get frustrated that I can’t just tell my daughter NO and she’ll obey. Then I remember I want her to always understand there are reasons, and she should always know the reasons.
” I am a Googlist and I don’t believe anything I read unless I know from own experience that it might be true. Even then I don’t know if I should believe it for a fact. 😆 That’s what makes life so interesting, doesn’t it? ”
Certainly does. We’re lucky these days that there’s so much information, and it’s so easy to access. So many life experiences to draw conclusions from, but you’re right we still have to question everything.
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Thanks V! 😀
I was like that as a child. Don’t tell be to do something I don’t understand and just expect me to obey. I wanted to know why and the reasons and that’s the way I raised my sons.
We are lucky indeed hon. Now nobody has an excuse for not knowing anything. 😆
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