lessons for christian ladies
I really struggle with how we reconcile gender equality and Christianity. On the one hand, I have Insanitybytes insisting “I exist in a very female centered belief system”, and on the other hand I have biblicalgenderroles declaring “We must rid feminism and egalitarianism from our marriages, our families, our churches and our nation, one marriage at a time.”
Luckily for me, biblicalgenderroles gives three excellent passages from the Bible to back up her/his opinion on this matter. These under-appreciated passages from the Christian holy book will help your marriage, your family, your nation, but perhaps not so much your sanity.
1. Call your husband ‘master’ or ‘lord’.
For in this way in former times the holy women also, who hoped in God, used to adorn themselves, being submissive to their own husbands; just as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord… (I Peter 3: 5-6)
2. Remember to cover your head because you’re not the god God’s glory, you’re a man’s glory!
A man, in fact, should not cover his head, because he is God’s image and glory, but woman is man’s glory. (I Corinthians 11:7)
3. Bear in mind that you are a mere afterthought and accessory.
Man was not created for woman, but woman for man. (I Corinthians 11:9)
I’m still waiting for that sandwich…
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Not till you take off those dirty red shoes.
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And piss Veles off? Never!
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And you are expecting comments? Just go make John his sandwich. And don’t forget to call him Sir when you deliver it.
(I should talk, I’m just about to deliver a pea/bean pilao to he who is watching a film … )
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No, no…not just Sir, Lord. That’s Lord John Zande.
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You may wish to ask the Brit about etiquette when speaking to titled people. Or check out debretts.b:)
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Oh, no. We must call the men Lord or Master. This I know for the Bible tells me so.
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Debretts trumps the bible. Any day.
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😉
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Well, just cover your unglorious head while you’re doing it.
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Forgot. 50 hail marys heh?
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Ruth,
What used to happen if a woman’s husband passed away was – his family took her in and took care of her and his children(either one of his brothers, a cousin or his parents).
But that point aside, if we go into something, anything, planning to fail, then we will not succeed at that thing.
If a wife goes into a marriage, with that plan that “I must be as independent as possible in case he is a bad husband, an abuser, or he looses his job, or he dies”, then most likely she will make what she fears a self-fulfilling prophesy.
Instead for those of who have faith, we enter marriage based on faith. Do bad things happen to people of faith who marry? Absolutely. When these happen, we address them as best we can, depending on our families and our churches for help.
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Why would any woman go into marriage planning for a bad husband or an abuser? That strikes me as somewhat unthinking in the extreme.
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What used to happen if a woman’s husband passed away was – his family took her in and took care of her and his children(either one of his brothers, a cousin or his parents).
I am quite familiar with the kinsman redeemer concept. What used to happen in OT times and in NT first century Christianity was that the next of kin, usually the oldest brother still living, would step up and marry the widow. But we don’t live in OT times, nor do we live in 1st century Christianity.
But that point aside, if we go into something, anything, planning to fail, then we will not succeed at that thing.
That wasn’t what I was suggesting. At.All. If I were going into my marriage planning for failure I wouldn’t get married. As I am married I think that settles that question. Who does that? I submit that if a woman is self-sufficient and independent it actually helps the marriage. Your point in another comment about women’s independence not helping marriage because of the divorce rate is somewhat a fallacy. Yes, it is true that the divorce rate is 50% and yes, it is true that of those 50% women file. But I don’t think it has weakened marriage. People who were completely miserable before just stayed married and lived single lives. The men did their own thing and the women did their own thing. Is that necessarily better? If you’re content to live a miserable life, I suppose so. People who are happily married don’t get divorced.
Do bad things happen to people of faith who marry? Absolutely. When these happen, we address them as best we can, depending on our families and our churches for help.
So, instead of women being self-sufficient and independent we should mooch off of everyone else who will take care of us? No thanks.
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and include two Our Father, and maybe a bonus- apostle’s creed
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hahah Kate.
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I’m wondering how familiar insanitybytes is with 1st century Christians. In what way is she in a female centered belief system? What? Because the husband is supposed to “take care of his wife?” That has all sorts of meanings, the biggest of which is the wife is dependent on the husband. So if he’s a deadbeat or an abuser or he loses his job, or his health declines, or he kicks the bucket? Then what?
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She went into more detail if you’re interested. 😀
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violetwisp,
You can’t reconcile the idea of unlimited equality and Christianity. Many liberal Christian commentators and Christian feminists today have tried to do so, but in the end they have tear apart the very foundations of the faith they claim to hold.
Personally, I have more respect for someone who rejects Christianity because they recognize certain core tenants of it that they disagree with, rather than some people who twist and mangle Christianity so much that a Christian of 100 years ago would not recognize such it as being being Christian.
We as a country have embraced the equality, partnership style of marriage over the last 50 years, and can we say it has made marriage a stronger institution? 50 percent divorce rates(70 percent of which are filed by women), and well as the under reported fact that people are simply not marry as much anymore I think give us the answer to whether marriage as an institution has been made stronger or weaker.
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If what you’re saying is true, you need to pray for forgiveness for learning how to read and spending your time on the Internet when you should have been spending time thinking about ways to please your husband.
Because, you know, before women were allowed to have an education, marriages never ended except through someone dying.
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I am a guy by the way. But If I were a woman(and I know many conservative christian female bloggers) I would not have to ask forgiveness to learning how to read or spending time on the internet.
I do not believe all the treatment of women in the past was correct. While the Bible is clear that men and women were not created by God as equals, God did tell me to love, and honor their wives.
There have been many a man(Christian or otherwise) who have failed to live up to that command.
There is nothing wrong with a woman being educated, or doing things like writing and teaching other women and children. The Bible actually commands that older women ought to teach the younger women how to be Godly women, good wives, and mothers.
But the Bible teaches something our culture does not like – it teaches women that they must channel their talents, their intelligence, into their marriage, their children and their churches(helping other Christian women). It teaches women to help the poor and needy.
Proverbs 31 even shows a woman going into the market selling clothing she has made at home, and going and buying a field.
But everything a woman does, is always focused back on God’s primary purpose for her life, that of a wife and mother. Now you may scoff at that, and think that is too simplistic, or too narrow, but that is a core tenant of the Christian faith.
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“There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”
Unless you are a woman, in which case you’re to call your husband master and know your place as his object? Just doesn’t sound right with the first bit. You clearly cherry pick the Bible to suit your own desires to dominate women. What are you really afraid of?
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See what you did there? You defined the role of “wife and mother” to coincide with what you selectively think being a wife and mother ought to be. In order to say that you’re right and previous Christians were wrong about what “wife and mother” means, you’re going to have to do better.
What principles can you adhere to which make previous generations’ treatment of women wrong? They were trying to do God’s will. Ostensibly they had just as much information about God as you do.
If those previous generations were right, then you still should beg for forgiveness for taking a moderate stance against sin. After all, it falls on you to make sure the women who belong to you stay in line.
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The wrong treatment of women that I was referring to was the harshness toward them, and the dishonoring of them:
“Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife” I Peter 3:7
“Her children arise and call her blessed;
her husband also, and he praises her:
“Many women do noble things,
but you surpass them all.”
Proverbs 31:28-29
“Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them” – Colossians 3:19
These are the “principles” by which we can rightly judge previous generations treatment of women, as well our this generation.
Men did not always honor their wives, men did not always praise their wives for the good they did in their homes. Some men were, and still today are bitter and harsh with their wives. This behavior was a clear violation of God’s Word.
No on the education front, do I think a woman as the Biblical right to a formal education? No, But neither do men. But I also see no place in Scripture that says it is a sin for a woman to be educated, or a man for that matter.
I did not define what a wife and mother looks like – God did in the Bible.
“A wife of noble character who can find?
She is worth far more than rubies.
Her husband[Hebrew word ‘baal’ for owner, master] has full confidence in her
and lacks nothing of value.
She brings him good, not harm,
all the days of her life.
She selects wool and flax
and works with eager hands…
She opens her arms to the poor
and extends her hands to the needy…
She watches over the affairs of her household
and does not eat the bread of idleness.”
Proverbs 31:10-13 & 20 & 27
“3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.”
Titus 2:3-5
“I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.”
I Timothy 5:14
“Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.”
Ephesians 5:24
So have I selectively defined the role of a wife and mother, or am I just stating what the Bible teaches about being a wife and mother?
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“I did not define what a wife and mother looks like – God did in the Bible.”
Unless you are arguing that God is typing for you, that God is solely responsible for everything you write here, and all of your thoughts on the matter, you are adopting what a wife and mother looks like from the Bible. That you believe it comes from God has no bearing on what you are picking and choosing.
While you have selected some nifty verses, I wonder what you mean by “honoring” one’s wife and mother? If the Bible is the sole reference by which we must pick, here are some verses to help you out:
1 Peter 3:3 – “Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes.”
1 Peter 3:5-6 – “For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. They were submissive to their own husbands, 6 like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her master. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear.”(so much for 1 Timothy 5:14).
1 Timothy 2:12 – “I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.”
Judges 19 tells of a wonderful story about a man who let his host send his concubine out to placate an angry mob. After they abused her, he took her home and cut her up into pieces.
Numbers 5: 11-31 has a delightful command from God to make women drink bitter water in order to tell if they have been cheating on their husbands. I won’t spoil what God does to those women that fail the test.
Exodus 21: 2-7 contains rules for buying Hebrew servants. God let men go free after 6 years. Women didn’t get that luxury. Women also automatically went into servitude with their husbands.
Finally, there are at least some Christians who take this further to mean that men can physically discipline their wives.
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Of course I am NOT arguing that God is typing for me, but I and those who believe the Bible is the Word of God believe that God did in fact “type” if you will, through his Apostles and Prophets. So if I quote Scriptures – I do believe, those words are indeed the Word of God. I completely realize as I have alluded to other places here, that others do not accept the Bible as the Word of God, but just another source of information, written by men, and that is their right to do so.
But for those of us who do embrace the Bible as the very Word of God, it is clear from passages I have presented(not cherry picked, but seen throughout the OT and NT), that Biblically speaking, woman and man are not equal, and that woman was made for man and is meant to be under the authority of man.
Let me first answer your question about what means to honor a woman as a wife and mother, before I move on to the passages you cited. Honor means to praise her(as the Proverbs 31 husband does) for fulfilling her role as God has defined it in his Word. We should honor women that sacrifice themselves for their homes, their children and their husbands. When a woman does what God commands toward her husband and children, she should be praised for that, that is honoring a wife and mother. If a woman does things contrary to the role God has given her, there is no praise in that, no honor in that.
Also the honoring and praise of a wife is NOT unconditional. When the husband praised his wife in Proverbs 31, it was for her “works” as a wife and mother, it was not for simply breathing and being his wife.
In fact if a wife acts in a dishonorable manner, her husband ought to take her to task for it as Job did with his wife:
“His wife said to him, “Are you still maintaining your integrity? Curse God and die!”
He replied, “You are talking like a foolish woman. Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?”
In all this, Job did not sin in what he said.”
Job 2:8-10
And now lets move to the verses you listed:
I Peter 3:3 “Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes.” – this passage is telling women that they should not think their ONLY beauty, or most important beauty comes from the outside, but their most important beauty comes from what is on their inside,their spirit – as vs 4 states “Rather, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God’s sight.” – the most important aspect of any woman’s beauty, is that her gentle and quiet spirit.
Neither does God asking women to obey their husbands calling them Master dishonor women, In fact it instructs a woman on how to be an honorable woman. A “dishonorable woman” Biblically speaking, is one that is loud, rough, disobedient to her husband and speaks out of place.
I Timothy 2:12 does not dishonor women by only permitting men to speak in the church and calling on women to be silent. Honoring a man’s place of authority over a woman in the church does not dishonor her, any more than honoring a mother’s authority over her children dishonors her children.
The passage you cite from Judges 19 is indeed a dark time in Israel’s history. If you examine the story closely, God does not condone any of this activity. In fact this was a time in Israel as Judges 21:25 says “In those days Israel had no king; everyone did as they saw fit.” There was no law and order, no one was listening to the Priests or Prophets.
There are many examples of behavior, either by unbelievers, or even sometimes by believers, that is wrong and sinful behavior. Just because the Bible records an event, does not mean God condoned that behavior. But in those passages, where God commands, or his prophets or Apostles present something as right behavior, that we accept the will of God.
I realize there are some passages, where God actually did command, and condone behavior that we may not understand or that conflicts with our modern western values. But in this passage from Judges, there is nothing to indicate that God approved of the behavior of this levite.
For Numbers 5:11-31 This is the test of a jealous husband. An unfaithful wife is not deserving of honor. if a man has has feeling his wife was being unfaithful. I realize it may seem like nonsense, and bunch of voodoo to you, but for us as believers – it is the very Word of God. If the woman was unfaithful by God’s divine test, then she deserved her punishment.
Here is the passage your cite from Exodus 21:
7 “If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as male servants do.
8 If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself, he must let her
be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her.
9 If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter.
10 If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food,
clothing and marital rights. 11 If he does not provide her with these three things,
she is to go free, without any payment of money.
The master may have bought her as just a servant, or perhaps as concubine(slave wife)as a wife for one of his servants or he has bought her as concubine(slave wife) for himself. But notice, verse 8 and in verse 11, if she is not pleasing to him or his son(he he bought her for his son) they must either treat her as as wife, free her, or allow her to be redeemed(bought back by her father, or some other family member).
You say “she does not have the luxury” of just being freed after a certain amount of time(even if she was only a servant, and not a concubine). If you understood the times, you would understand that women did not have the economic ability to care for themselves as men did. This difference with women was to make sure they were properly cared for, and you can see from this passage, that if she was not being properly cared for,she did in fact have to be freed.
Your “luxury” comment also implies that you believe “honoring of women” means they must be treated equally in all circumstances of life. While in modern western culture we may believe that to be the case, the Bible does not see it that way. Honor does not equal total economic and social equality.
Honor means to praising someone for performing the role they were meant to perform.
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To be fair, I read your entire comment. Thank you for defining what you meant by honor. In that regard, I think my original point still stands.
The verse in I Timothy 2:12 demands that women can’t teach men. So, wives can’t read Bible stories to their sons. In earlier times, this temptation was removed by just not teaching women how to read. By keeping them completely dependent upon their men, there was no temptation to sin. Why not go the full measure with your view?
According to what you have said, women were created for men. If they cheat on their husbands, the husbands have the right to sell their wives into servitude. In this regard, women aren’t even people. They shouldn’t even vote, lest they make a decision contrary to their husbands’/fathers’/other owners’ wishes.
One other thing: I used to have the faith that you desperately cling to, so I am quite familiar with how highly regarded the Bible ought to be to people who think they are being Godly. But I want you to recognize that, at the least, you were making excuses for human trafficking. The reason why it’s not acceptable today is because of women being treated equally, and not according to Biblical standards.
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Sirius,
Thank your reading my entire comment(I realize it was long, but you threw a bunch of stuff at me- LOL).
The Bible forbids women teaching men, it never forbids women teaching children(little boys).
“Listen, my son, to your father’s instruction and do not forsake your mother’s teaching.” – Proverbs 1:8
So no, the Bible does not forbid a woman from learning to read, or teaching her children(including sons).
Keeping women completely dependent on men(following the Biblical design for genders) in no way keeps them from sinning, we see examples all over the Scripture of women who did sin,whether against their husbands or other people.
What passage of Scripture says if a wife cheats on her husband she can be sold in servitude? The last I checked the only two options for a husband were to put his wife to death, or divorce her. Let me know the passages so I can look them up.
I agree that women should not be able to vote, as in voting is in essence a women taking authority over men, which they ought not be able to do.
I can tell you have some background in the Christian faith.
The Bible condemns “man stealing”, or in other words kidnapping someone and selling them as slave, because in essence you are dealing in stolen property.
“If a man be found stealing any of his brethren of the children of Israel, and maketh merchandise of him, or selleth him; then that thief shall die; and thou shalt put evil away from among you.” Deuteronomy 24:7
But the Bible in neither the OT, nor the NT condemns slavery, or the concept of one human being having ownership of another human being. It condemns harsh treatment of masters toward their slaves, but never the institution of slavery itself. In fact the Bible prescribes that parents may sell their children, or slaves may be take as a result of war.
“If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him….Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the SLAVE is their PROPERTY…
An owner who hits a male or female slave in the eye and destroys it must let the slave go free to compensate for the eye. And an owner who knocks out the tooth of a male or female slave must let the slave go free to compensate for the tooth.”
Exodus 21:2-3 & 20-21 & 26-27
“Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not people, because you know that the Lord will reward each one for whatever good they do, whether they are slave or free.
And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him.”
Ephesians 6:5-9
“Masters, provide your slaves with what is right and fair, because you know that you also have a Master in heaven.”
Colossians 4:1
“Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.”
I Peter 2:18
Paul even sent a runaway slave back to his former master who was a believer, asking him to have mercy on him.
So the Bible condemns man-stealing(taking someone whom you had no right to acquire) and selling them as a slave. It condemns the harsh treatment of slaves by Masters,and commands masters to care for the needs of their slaves. It teaches that if a man takes one of his slaves as a wife, she is to be treated as wife and has the right to food, clothing and sex from her husband.
That brings us to human trafficking, as well as the slavery that existed in America and other nations before that. In other cultures and times, slaves could be beaten to death without anyone batting an eye. People could be kidnapped and sold into slavery without issue. When people did have slaves, they treated them as animals, instead of human beings. Men routinely had sex with their female slaves, without giving them the full status of a wife. This is very different type of slavery than what is prescribed in the Scriptures.
Modern human trafficking, for the most part involves kidnapping young girls and selling them as sex slaves. It also involves harsh and inhuman treatment of these girls(where they often get them addicted to drugs to control them). These women are not given the full rights and treatment as wives, but are instead used as prostitutes, something the Bible clearly condemns.
“Do not degrade your daughter by making her a prostitute, or the land will turn to prostitution and be filled with wickedness.” – Leviticus 19:29
I realize that even the idea of one human being able to purchase another(even if they are treated fairly), or a man being able to purchase another man’s daughter(and the father being able to sell her) as servant who may become a concubine(a slave wife) is offensive to our modern notions of equality, and what it means to be treated as a human being.
Some people have given up on the Bible completely, when they truly come to understand the teachings of God’s Word on slavery, or the idea that one person could in fact, under God’s law, become the property of another.
But if the Bible truly is the Word of God, then one day these same people can stand before God, and attempt to debate the creator as to why he allowed such things.
Personally, I don’t want to debate the creator, and I accept that while I may not understand all his ways, his will is always right, and his ways are always perfect.
“Would you discredit my justice?
Would you condemn me to justify yourself?
Do you have an arm like God’s,
and can your voice thunder like his?”
Job 40:8-9
“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.”
Isaiah 55:8
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For starters, I did misspeak. The right for men to sell their wives into slavery attaches from the verses in Exodus; when they go into servitude, their wives go too. What I also should have put in italics was Men have the right to sell their daughters into servitude. That comes from the passage in Exodus 21 as well.
As for your other points, I did not say that it would completely prevent them from sinning. But it most assuredly would cause one less temptation to sin. If God is real, isn’t the everlasting redemption of a woman’s soul more important than letting them be tempted to think they have equal rights as men do?
What I’m getting at here is that there are some principles you’re relying on that fall outside your definition of “honor.” You can quote and make excuses for the Bible verses all you want, it doesn’t negate that the Bible did permit treating women like property (like the implications of the 10th Commandment). Yes, you can paint 1 Peter 3 in a positive light, but its plain, ordinary meaning is for women to sit down and take whatever crap their husbands throw at them.
Rewarding women for being godly doesn’t negate other Biblical recommendations for the treatment of women. For example, should men be able to sell their daughters off to (non-foreign) men who need a bride? Should women stay in marriages where they are getting physically abused? If they shouldn’t, you’re going to need a different precept outside of the Bible to justify that.
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Sirius,
You are correct that if a man sold himself into slavery, by extension he was selling the service of his wife as well. However his wife remains his, and when he leaves as it states, she goes with him. But if a man sells himself into servitude it for a reason, because he owed a debt and is trying to repair, his family must go with him – there is no issue, because under Biblical law his is his.
That brings us to issue of women being the property of their fathers or husbands- On behalf of the Bible, I plead “guilty as charged”.
However I do not believe it is immoral for someone, to be another person’s property, and neither does a Biblical worldview point. But we must remember, there were limits on what one could do with their human “property”. If they caused great harm or physical abuse, they had to free their slaves. If a woman was not given food, clothing and sex by her husband, she was to freed.
You asked if a woman had to stay and endure Physical abuse. If the Bible states that slaves(the property of their owner) must be freed if physically abused, then it would also follow that a wife who is also the property of her husband must be freed if she is physically abused, as a wife had more rights than a slave had.
And as far as women “taking whatever crap from their husbands”, yes apart from a husband failing to feed his wife, cloth wife and have sex with her, and apart from him causing her great bodily harm, she does have to “put up with his crap” – from a Biblical perspective of course.
As I said when I started this conversation, I completely get that if people want to reject these things, they may reject the Bible in its entirety, and roll the dice with their eternal destinies. God has given us a free will to do just that.
But if a person wants believe the Bible, they must accept all parts of it, not just the parts that conform with our modern https://widgets.wp.com/notifications/1799429271#culture, they must be willing deviate from our culture where the speaks differently.
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‘But if the Bible is truly the Word of God’. That is the key issue.
To some people the Bible’s teaching on slavery has caused them to question this.
John Dominic Crossan commented that Paul’s letter to Philemon is often overlooked. But understood in the context of the time it is clear Paul is pushing Philemon into a corner where he effectily has no choice but to free Onesimus.
Crossan’s position is that Ephesians and Colossians were probably not written by Paul which goes some way to explaining their different teaching on slavery (and other matters).
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“a Christian of 100 years ago would not recognize such it as being being Christian”
Why 100 years ago? That’s surely not the ideal time to aiming for. The early Christians who lived the way Jesus directly taught them would be the more obvious models for people of your faith.
“All the believers were together and had everything in common. They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need.” Acts 2:44-45
Now these are Bible passages you don’t hear often in church.
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I, too, have a lot of respect for such a person
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My first thought: “No. F*$& no.” I wouldn’t want that.
I’m a dude, if anyone doesn’t know.
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Well if you were a fine upstanding Christian, it would seem like the natural thing to do. 😉
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Having lived through the conservatives fundamentalist takeover of the Southern Baptist Church, I know that most people taught about BIblical household management (complementarianism) is that it’s just ‘Bible teaching’ they aren’t taught about any alternatives like egalitarianism. There sure are a lot of verses that says whatever complementarians want them to say and since the leadership are all guys who do the interpreting and all guys who translated the ESV Bible that is so very popular, they can’t possibly be biased or sexist because it’s just what God says / wants for all time regardless of one’s cultural upbringing. I just don’t like complementarianism’s answer in the case of abuse: “submit more.” The way I see it, if denominations are an answer to the fact that one way of doing church doesn’t work for everybody, then there needs to alternatives because complementarianism isn’t going to work for everybody either.
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I had a quick look at your post on Christian femininity. It’s a bizarre world you people live in. Even if I believed in your god, I can’t imagine getting caught up in the senseless role-building and gender expectation. People are diverse and lives are so individual.
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Thankfully, it’s not my world either. But I like to stay informed as to what the ultra-conservative fundamentalist crowd are up to so I can act as a ‘check’ to their theology and a ‘balance’ to their perspective. I’m quite liberal in my personal theology, in fact, according to R.C. Sproul, I’m barely a Christian. Which I believe to be far more preferable to be barely a Christian than to buy into the teachings of Biblical Manhood or Biblical Womanhood. If done incorrectly, it’s quite destructive and can be used to perpetuate and hide abuse. I don’t care how Biblical it is, how many verses they use to justify their position, I won’t accept it – and that’s probably why they say that I’m barely a Christian.
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Sounds interesting. I hope you’re able to join more conversations in the future. It’s always good to have another more reasonable voice of Christianity join in.
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Pingback: Biblical Sexism | Amusing Nonsense
What Church history tends to show is that when movements start in the Church women are quite prominent. However as they settle down and become institutionalised the men tend to remove the women for roles of influence, pushing them to the sidelines.
Bart Ehrman noted that in the letters that majority of scholar agree Paul wrote, women are treated quite favourably. In the letters scholars are unsure of, women are put more to the side. In the letters most scholars are confident are late works and not from Paul women are made very much subject to the control of men.
The key point is that in the letters traditionally attributed to Paul there is not a consistent approach to the issue. This is why both sides of the debate can support their position from the Bible.
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Do you not find that any side of any debate can support their position from the Bible? There are a lot of words, a lot of stories, and translation plus interpretation on all those words gives a lot of room for, well, anything.
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Wrote you a whole post, Violet
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I’m sure she’s opened a bottle of champagne to celebrate. I mean who wouldn’t want to spend time reading your glorious insights?
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Oh, now there’s some male arrogance in action right there! I believe you also often like to call me an “uneducated imbecile.” You are only one of many non believing males who have proven themselves to not only be sexist, but hypocrites as well, who are quick to point fingers at Christians, but reluctant to examine the nature of their own selves.
I can tell you right now, in the Christian world I have had men call me a Jezebel, a retard, and made vulgar references to assorted ladybits, but in the atheist world, I am delusional, insane, uneducated, an imbecile, unable to think for myself, brainwashed, perverse, abusive, oppressive, worthless, a slut, a child abuser, a liar, a lover of pedophiles, chemically imbalanced, and a few others I seem to have now forgotten.
Male pride and ego is a real thing in the world and has little to do with religion at all. That is a major misconception. In fact, given the odds, I much prefer the Christian lunkheads, at least they recognize they do answer to a Higher Authority. What am I to appeal to in your case pink? Certainly not your honor, not God, and I cannot sexually entice you to be kind, so actually I am rather screwed in your world.
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Darling,
I don’t look down on you because you’re a woman, I look down on you because what you write is rubbish.
P.S. Is ‘sexually enticing’ people who disagree with you what you normally have to do to convince people you’re right? That must be an exhausting way to live! If you tried reading more and writing less, in future, you might have an easier time.
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Delightful to see you. Must you be so predictably condescending and personally insulting to the other blog guests? It’s incredibly tiresome. When you pop by please feel free to comment on the content of the post and offer what insight you can to the topic in hand.
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Evidently I really must. Was this meant as a Victorian tea-dance?
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I do love it when you get to the point 🙂
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I can’t tell you the effort I’ve been making to be nice for the past few months; but it’s just not me 😀
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I know 😀 doesnt suit you anyway 🙂
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Hey pinkagenda-
May I suggest you pass on the bubbly and consider living water……
Yea, there is a place that satisfies the true thirst that you so artfully mock; perhaps you should take your own advice and read more of ib’s works before you put proverbial foot-in-mouth.
There is this well you see, but the pure water does not mix with the flask of pride.
.
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Is there a factory somewhere producing little stockpiles of undereducated religious fools? Here’s a hint, if any ideology causes you to speak in the ridiculous terms which you people resort to, you should ask yourself why.
Now go satisfy your “thirst” with Jesus juice and leave the people who don’t believe in your imbecilic religion alone.
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“Is there a factory somewhere producing little stockpiles of undereducated religious fools?”
Yes! It’s right next to the factory producing little stockpiles of haughty and pretentious elitist fools whose only form of meaningful communication is to disdainfully churn out childish insults while they imagine they are intellectually superior to the rest of the world. 😀 (missed you!)
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If only it were imagination. The boiling point of water isn’t a discussion in which people need to engage.
Idiots on the other hand waste an extraordinary amount of time debating things that have been out of the sphere of educated conversation for a very long time.
All these people who you’re indulging would shudder at the thought of being obliged to submit to the tenets of any religion other than their own; So debating the merits or demerits of individual customs or traditions is pointless. It’s focusing on the symptom rather than the disease 😉
What pulls the rug from under them is making them take a step back. How would they feel if someone spit on their mother or wife and called them a whore for not covering their heads?
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Thank you Insanity. You know that unlike some people round here, I do appreciate your work. Thought provoking at the very least (often shudder inducing), well written, clear and nicely weird on occasion.
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Well, that was an interesting thread, proving how hand-in-hand the cult of death known as Christianity goes with fear and prejudice, namely misogyny, though not only.
Sometimes it is really hard to believe that people like the Biblical Grand Rapist exist and can spew their inhumane views without a shred of critical self-reflection.
Alas. Cuz Bible.
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