the love of eternal torment
It’s surprising that most Christians are rather complacent about their core belief in hell: the majority of human beings who exist and have existed will spend eternity is some form of torment. Sermons dwelling on the horrors of hell may not be quite as popular as they once were, but it seems clear that most Christian denominations still hold this belief dear to their hearts.
Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs. (Catholic Church)
In both “body and soul” unbelievers will suffer eternal separation and condemnation in hell. Indescribable torment will be experienced consciously, the degree determined by the nature of the sins to be punished. (Lutheran Church)
Baptists believe Hell to be a real place existing outside of God—an eternal separation between soul and God. … Hell, they believe, was created originally for Satan and his devils as a place of incredible torment. (Baptist Church)
And of course, we have the words attributed to one of their gods, the character Jesus:
The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 13:41-42)
If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. (Mark 9:43)
It’s clear that hell is a real place in the minds of the majority of Christians. And it seems they have found a way of reconciling the notion that their god is loving with this idea of eternal torment for most of humanity. But have Christians really stopped to think if any of this is logical?
Let’s look at it step by step:
- Christians believe they have free will, in spite of the fact that they believe an omniscient being created them.
- They choose to ‘sin’ (i.e. behave in ways contrary to the wishes of their god) because they are essentially a bad creation by a perfect being.
- They are happy they have this free will to sin because it proves their god isn’t creating mindless robots, just flawed creatures that can choose to be bad.
- Christians believe they will be happy in an afterlife called heaven, where they can’t sin because they won’t want to choose to be bad, but they will still have free will.
- Christians believe they will be happy in heaven (a place of love) knowing the majority of humanity is suffering eternal torment in this place called hell.
- Christians believe they will be using their free will and choosing to be happy in heaven in the knowledge that people they love here on earth will be suffering eternal torment in a place called hell.
I’ve always said, if I were to end up in Heaven to find loved ones were in Hell, my free will would be freaking the **** out. If I didn’t, then I either wouldn’t be me or wouldn’t be free. (M.M.J. Gregory on Amusing Nonsense)
I think the above quote sums up the worst of it nicely, but for anyone who wants to delve further into these contrary notions, check out Amusing Nonsense and John Zande in 38 Words.
Thanks for the link, and I see you have the LCMS’s view on Hell up there! Oh, it brings back memories.
I keep forgetting there are so many different Hells and Heavens to choose from. Churches really ought to put them on the travel brochure!
LikeLike
Oh, I’m so pleased I got your pre-deconversion hell in there! I like how there are different levels of torment for different sin levels in that one. I’d love to see the Divine Calculation.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Unfortunately, that involves math. I don’t think they teach that in seminary…
LikeLike
How are you doing V?
It is strange that the christian believes in an all powerful god and also that we can defy the wishes of a such a being. I don’t know how this happens but would sure love an explanation
LikeLike
Me too, and I’d like to know how the divine being sometimes makes people do things and they still have free will.
LikeLike
David is trying to solve that on a post of mine. He reckons we only have “a little free will.” I tried to explain to him that that is like being a little pregnant, or a little dead. He, however, insists he’s correct…
LikeLike
a little pregnant does it also come to term?
LikeLiked by 1 person
In little ways, I guess 😉
LikeLike
If you should get an answer please share
LikeLike
What about my “Why don’t you just burn in Heaven!” That one’s a riot of awkwardness 🙂
LikeLike
I don’t remember that one – link?
LikeLike
LikeLike
Oh I do! That’s the one with the big numbers, how could I forget!?
LikeLiked by 1 person
What a fantastic post Violet, it brings back such warm fuzzy memories! I had no idea different denominations had slightly different versions of hell. Catholics definitely believe in a REAL hell, with all the trimmings of torment. To add a little more background, the righteous in heaven will be separated from the unrighteous by an enormous chasm, so they can’t help the ones they love even if they wanted to (Luke 16:26). Nice touch, eh? After the Final Judgement, those unworthy will be thrown into the Lake of Fire for their second, eternal death and torment (Rev 20:14).
LikeLike
The Catholic system wins as usual! Nothing weirder and more fabricated and designed to scare adherents to death.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I have been having a discussion with a Primo Fundamentalist about hell, it’s history, the involvement if the church, the etymology etc.
In the end he simply said I was wrong as the entire bible was written by Jesus.
I didn’t know where to go after this?
Pure insanity.
And they breed.
LikeLike
Oh dear, do you ever think of going back to not wasting so much time? What are we doing??
LikeLike
I know. Sad isn’t it? lol …
We are all nuts, I fear. But nice nuts. And it is important to recognise the difference.
Also, I always seem to learn something new,no matter how small or seemingly insignificant.
I love history and actually do find religion fascinating.
Plus, this nonsense has provided the ‘spark’ for a series of three humorous fantasy novels so I win hands down, I reckon.
LikeLike
That’s a first one. The bible being written by Jesus! David said the names on the book titles reflect their authors. I haven’t seen one called Jesus
LikeLike
Remember: God /Jesus…. Jesus/God.
All the same to these folk.
LikeLike
Ah. I forget sometimes. But why then don’t they admit that jesus is the same murdering jealous deity of the old testament? Is it so hard to be consistent
LikeLike
It is difficult to get one;s head around Jesus Meek and Mild bouncing little kiddies on his knee with the meglomaniacal genocidal despot that ordered Joshua to put to the sword every living and breathing thing in Canaan.
Some things just will not compute.
LikeLike
Unless you are a bible believing Christian then it all makes sense. God is good and whatever god does is good
LikeLiked by 2 people
Oh, that is a really nice photo of the Giant Orkney Budgerigar.
LikeLike
I’m so glad you recognised it! I thought it was fitting for a post on HELL,
LikeLike
Something to crow about, for sure.
LikeLike
Yes, your big, black transporter of souls is a perfect pic for this post. Nice artistic touch.
LikeLike
That is exactly the proposition that got me questioning in first place, eventually leading to my deconversion.
Relevant self-plug:
Violet, feel free to edit or delete this comment if you think it’s in any way out of place.
LikeLike
Like it says on the box, all comments welcome! Look forward to reading the post, I like deconversion stories.
LikeLiked by 1 person
One in my series. See the journey page for more.
LikeLike
Ratamacue, I’m surprise hell is what led to your questioning religion, because usually believers don’t think they’re going there (and so don’t seem to worry about it). I didn’t give it too much thought until my faith was seriously starting to fail, and then I became very anxious because I realized I was going to be banished there. Thankfully giving jesus and heaven the boot meant I also got to give satan and hell the boot.
I wonder what topics make people deconvert the most?
By the way, that Julie lady on your blog was incorrect…she said one can only choose between heaven and hell. I’m here to tell that there’s also PURGATORY, which is temporary torment until you’ve worked off your sins. Cuz you know, catholics got the story right. 😉
LikeLike
ahaha Vi
Thank goodness for the catholics. I offer another option that if the Buddhists are correct, you can be reborn as a donkey until a point where you don’t have to be reborn
LikeLiked by 1 person
For more information see the thesis of Trevor Johnson:
PROPOSITION STATEMENT
This thesis will demonstrate two main truths:
First:
That those in heaven will, in fact, know of and probably even visually behold those in hell.
Second:
That this knowledge and sight of the condemned dead is not troubling to the saints, but rather gives more cause for praises.
He quotes Tertullian:
How vast a spectacle then bursts upon the eye! What there excites my admiration?
what my derision? Which sight gives me joy? which rouses me to exultation?-as I see so many illustrious monarchs, whose reception into the heavens was publicly announced, groaning now in the lowest darkness with great Jove himself, and those, too, who bore witness of their exultation; governors of provinces, too, who persecuted the Christian name, in fires more fierce than those with which in the days of their pride they raged against the followers of Christ. What world’s wise men besides, the very philosophers, in fact, who taught their followers that God had no concern in ought that is sublunary, and were wont to assure them that either they had no souls, or that they would never return to the bodies which at death they had left, now covered with shame before the poor deluded ones, as one fire consumes them!
Poets also, trembling not before the judgment-seat of Rhadamanthus or Minos, but of the unexpected Christ! I shall have a better opportunity then of hearing the tragedians, louder-voiced in their own calamity; of viewing the play-actors, much more “dissolute” in the dissolving flame; of looking upon the charioteer, all glowing in his chariot of fire; of beholding the wrestlers, not in their gymnasia, but tossing in the fiery billows; unless even then I shall not care to attend to such ministers of sin, in my eager wish rather to fix a gaze insatiable on those whose fury vented itself against the Lord
LikeLike
But you don’t believe in hell as a Quaker, do you? I’m sure I remember posts you’ve done on this topic.
LikeLike
No. It is a useful metaphor for what we do on Earth, sometimes, but not a conscious state after death.
LikeLike
Peter asks you a question below by the way. Another person who can’t work out my reply buttons …
LikeLike
Hi Violet, in regard to ‘Reply’ buttons we just need to accept that people, myself included, are not very smart. I have been appalled at times at my own thick headedness in not being able to follow simple instructions.
The test is whether or not I responded with this message to your message of 10:10 PM on 16 April.
Robert McNamara perceptively commented that the average person is doing well if they learn from their mistakes after only seven times of getting it wrong.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Hi Clare, thanks for the interesting, though disturbing post.
I wonder whether the proposition of Trevor Johnson is based on an interpretation of the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31? Bible scholars have never really known what to make of it.
It would not be my idea of heaven to see others suffering torment. Even if they had given me a hard time on earth.
Imagine if a family was split and some went to heaven others to hell. How could those in heaven not be pained seeing those they had loved in everlasting torment?
LikeLike
It is a 140 page thesis. He must mention it somewhere.
In The Great Divorce CS Lewis has a scene of a blessed woman begging her damned husband to see the truth, and his refusal; and his resentments and falsehoods, pictured as The Tragedian, an actor, grow, and he shrinks and is subsumed into them, then she goes on her way, her joy in Heaven undimmed.
Though as I say above I do not believe in Hell.
LikeLike
This! What I have also found disturbing is that look of smugness some Christians give their non-Christian peers when they speak of hell. They feel like they’ve really one-upped us.
LikeLike