christians warp the bible: money
It seems that a lot of Christians believe that their god God has blessed wealthy people. This bizarre interpretation of the money-hating New Testament is particularly rife in the USA, where Christians often attend ostentatiously rich churches and boast about how the god God has blessed them with material wealth as some form of earthly reward for their worship. Christians aspire to be financially successful as if this is something natural to their belief system.
What does the New Testament say about money?
For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. Those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs. (1 Timothy 6:7-10)
Jesus said to them again, “Children, how difficult it is to enter the kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.” (Mark 10:21-25)
Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him? … Are not the rich the ones who oppress you, and the ones who drag you into court? Are they not the ones who blaspheme the honorable name by which you were called? (James 2:5-7)
“Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; life does not consist in an abundance of possessions.” (Luke 12:15)
The New Testament authors couldn’t be any clearer about their disdain for possessions and wealth. Even the model of life adopted by those most closely associated with the character Jesus continues this theme after his departure from the story:
All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had. With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need. (Acts 4:32-35)
So the questions remains, why have Christians warped such a clear message from the writers of the New Testament?
Because, the promise of being rich in the future is not very appealing as they may want you to believe
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Yeah, and the reality of choosing to struggle in this life just to give all your possessions to the ‘unworthy’ and sinful poor people really isn’t so appealing either.
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No, it doesn’t bring people closer to the offering plate as telling them they will prosper
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My goodness Violet, here you go dissing the prosperity gospel…my *personal* favorite. Clearly you don’t know God is GOOD…health and wealth and all good things to those who love him! After all, he made King Solomon rich and admirable, and thus he will do the same for us. After God abused the shit out of Job, he also made him rich in all ways because he loved him. (You forgot to include these two examples in your scripture excerpts above.)
If you’re not a millionaire Violet, its because you’re a sinner and a heathen. Repent, I say! 😉
No really, prosperity gospel makes for a great sales pitch, and has made the churches who use it (megachurches) hugely successful. People want to follow a god who will bless them materially, like He did with Solomon. The economic collapse and housing bust in the US has been terrible for those who preach the prosperity gospel, and a number of those mega-churches are bankrupt now. People are starting to get wise.
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Yes, I forgot to add that clearly I’ve based this all on the fulfillment of the god God’s message via Jesus. The new covenant doesn’t make them blessed and rich. This new deal has new rules. If they’re not eating pork, they have to give away their possessions, hence the emphasis on the New Testament.
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Yeah, the NT is much less fun, and Jesus can be a buzzkill. I should have been Jewish.
I love how in catholicism the nuns have to take a vow of poverty, but the priests don’t. Obviously Jesus didn’t make too much of an impression on the men in our religion, who are the only ones fit to preach.
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Surely monks do as well. But you’re right, how odd that priests and ministers live such materially comfortable lives.
I think we should all be Jewish, that’s the top god God, the rest are just spin-offs.
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Monk’s vows of poverty are optional…nun’s are not.
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All religious, whether male or female, priests or not, make a vow of poverty. Diococean priests do not.
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Tell that to Mr. Creflo Dollar, protestant prosperity preacher, who wears designer 3 piece suits, gold chains, rolexes,and flies around in a jet. I guess poverty is subjective. 🙂
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creflo_Dollar
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Creflo Dollar, the O’steens, Benny Hinn, Greg Laury, TBN, John Hagee, Kenneth Copeland, Fred Price, Chuck Smith, John MacArthur, Jim Brown & many other preachers that claim to be Christian are false teachers
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Oh sorry, you were referring to only catholics. I was told by nuns (I used to work in a convent) that there are some orders of monks who do not have to make vows of poverty. Perhaps I’m wrong about that. However the folks in the vatican are living rather well, aren’t they? With their personal limos and all, their jewelry and fine quarters, etc. Again, poverty must be subjective, even among catholics.
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All male and female religious, by definition, have a vow of poverty. A monk is a male religious who lives in a monastery. Not all priests have a vow of poverty, because they are not all members of religious orders.
You know, it is possible to be a non-believer and not repeat ignorant anti-Catholic tropes. I lived in Rome for four years and had professors who worked in the Vatican. I have never seen anybody who works there have personal jewelry or a limo. Bishops have their pectoral cross and ring as a sign of office, the Pope has his popemobile so the crowds can see him, that is about it.
Vatican city is a basilica, a museum and a bunch of old office buildings filled with overworked cannon lawyers who complain about boredom and the temptation of careerism. I’m sure some of the people working there are cynics, maybe even sinners, but your cartoon bad guys are best left to Jack Chick comics.
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The pope has his cross and his ring, I believe…are they made of plastic or gold? Pope Francis refused to ride in the limos and takes the bus instead. I know they make hubbub about the popes not accepting salary or having “personal possessions”, but they live finer than 95% of the human population. Sorry if that fact offends you.
The monks run some very savvy business (fruitcake, liquor, etc) and some tend to live a lot nicer lifestyle than the nuns. Have you ever been in a convent? Except for the church, it’s not much. The monasteries I’ve been to are pretty posh.
Am I the ignorant one? Guess that depends on who you ask. 😉
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So what is the Pope going to do with the Fisherman’s ring, pawn it and buy a flatscreen? It is a symbol, not a personal possession.
I have known many dozens of male and female religious and seen plenty of convents and monasteries. Trust me, I’ve been around.
Most religious (at least, all the ones I’ve known, with one exception) are sincere and not hypocrites. Most live their vow of poverty in a way that would drive you or me crazy. Why not just accept that? How does it hurt your non-belief?
There is nothing implicit in atheism that makes you have to think in terms of crude caricatures.
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Whoaaaaaaaaa Nelly! I never said, implied, or even think myself that devout religious people (or most religious people for that matter) are “hypocrites.” As a former very devout catholic I feel the vast majority are sincerely attempting to live their faith. Yes, I absolutely believe there is corruption in the catholic church and the vatican…but your average catholic laymen, monk, nun, or priest I don’t believe is a criminal.
Calm down DP and take a breath. I disagree with religion on all levels and think it’s harmful, but am not screaming that *everyone* involved is a hypocrite.
Now as to Creflo A. Dollar and his ridiculous prosperity gospel…he’s definitely a f’ing hypocrite.
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The entire thread of your argument relies on 1) the falsehood that male religious are not under the same canonical rules as female 2) the imputation of hypocrisy and love of comfort to male religious in general 3) some rather crude anti-catholic tropes about “jewelry and limos”.
What is to be gained by that? If it is just bullshitting or blowing off steam, I suppose I could empathize, if not really understand.
I have a friend who was raised in a nice Christian home, discovered Ayn Rand, and now shares low-brow atheist memes on facebook, which impute beliefs and behaviors to Christians which he, when he was a Christian, neither believed nor practiced. I can’t figure out if he is getting dumber or more dishonest or if there is something else going on. Caricature is a primary weapon of atheist apologetics and I just attribute it to individual obtuseness, but I can’t see why people peddle it when they should know better.
And to be clear: I’m not enamored of how the church is run and I have no apologetic interest in convincing anybody of the truth of catholicism, or of anything else for that matter. I’m just a snotty loudmouth who has a hard time keeping quiet when I see an obvious falsehood being thrown about.
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Here’s the truth DP…catholicism damaged me HUGELY. If I make some rather mild but unflattering comments about it, I’ll not apologize for it. Unless you have been injured by religion there is no reason you would or could understand my perspective. Nonetheless, it is my perspective to hold, and I will not be forced into silence.
Christ, compared to Ark (<3), I'm the sweetest antitheist around.
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Nobody is forcing you into anything. I’m not trying to be a jerk (that comes naturally), I’m wondering what the motive is.
Hopefully you achieve some some balance and peace. Some things just take time.
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DP, my motive is to speak the truth as I see it…I suspect we all share this same motive.
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Forgot to say, prosperity preachers never use the NT when they talk about wealth…haven’t you ever seen them on TV? Wait, do you guys have them on TV over there? Most of the verses on tithing are in the OT too, so really, there’s no need to even bring up the NT (except in the music, where they like to sing about god’s love and mercy for an emotional kick). You need to put those kids down for a nap and start watching more religious TV, Vi, and expand your mind about worthwhile things. (*snort*)
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That sounds great! I don’t think we have those channels here. There is a God Channel I think, but you have to pay extra for it. I should look for YouTube clips to get a real feel for it.
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The God channel on Freeview is TBN, “Trinity Bible Network” on around 65.
I can’t be bothered with it, though. I have just found Spike, 31, with Breaking Bad from the beginning, which I had not seen.
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Breaking Bad is addictive.
Like the meth.
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I’m pretty sure we don’t get the God Channel on Freeview but I’ll check when we get back. Never heard of Spike, I’ll have to check that too. Are you enjoying Breaking Bad? I struggle to find any TV series that compares with it.
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You might have to retune.
I loved BB series one, and the first of series 2, but my friend said it went downhill then: it was drawn out.
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No it doesn’t. For me it went down to series 3 but flew back up after that. Worth sticking with it to the end.
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TBN, channel 65, has regular Joel Osteen and Creflo Dollar. I found other bits of it repellent, so did not sample further.
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Creflo Dollar is a good one. Paula White other is another one. The will talk of the NT when they aren’t preaching prosperity gospel, but when they do, jesus is never mentioned.
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Thanks for these recommendations. I’ll have a browse for them in the next few days. I’m sure it will be lots of fun!
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They’re best watched with a good dose of your favorite alcoholic beverage…you will be moved to both laugh hysterically and weep your heart out at the same time. There is simply nothing that can compare to american prosperity gospel preachers. Thank your lucky stars they haven’t infected your county yet.
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Here’s a good one from Paula White…it picks up at the 49 minute mark. Notice the cadence of speaking…that cadence has certain effects on the brain. Also notice the music which backs her.
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At the 56 minute mark she starts speaking in tongues a bit here and there.
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I’m Christian & I do not tithe & God always gives me what I need, I do, however, help people when I am supposed to, but I stopped giving 10% a few years ago, & God has taken care of me in amazing ways!
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Well you’re a lucky guy BFF. God has not provided for me in the same way. Therapy for my autistic son costs over $600 for each 90 minute session…and so he hardly gets any therapy. The medication used to treat my disease costs over $40,000 every six months, and so I don’t get any treatment. I was a believer for over 40 years and have only been recently become an atheist. Can you spare a dime, brother?
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I’m poor, God just moved me to Butte, Montana, because I would have been homeless in Kingman, Arizona, I’m staying with friends, hopefully I will be able to find a job soon, I left San Diego, CA in Nov 2014, because nothing was working out for me there, all my things are in SD in storage, I spent 4 months in Lad Cruces, NM, nothing worked out for me there, then God had me go to Kingman, AZ for 3 weeks until moving me to Montana yesterday, I have less than $100, no car, & no job, but God is taking care of me, it took 22 hrs on the bus to get here, life is not easy, I hope things get better for you 🙂
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Good luck to you BFA. You’d better hope you stay healthy, or you’re really going it get a taste of how god provides.
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I understand that life is not my own, that God makes everything happen for His purpose, while I was in Las Cruces my teeth were in bad shape, so God had me apply for medicaid, I got medicaid within a week, & my teeth were taken care of within a month, God has made me go thru a lot of pain & suffering, but things have always worked out, the understanding of knowing that I am not in control of anything that happrns, helps me to stay calm when everything seems to be falling apart, on Monday I had no idea where I was going to be on Tuesday, & then God opened the door for me to move to Montana, & now I am waiting to see what happens next, one thing is for sure, I know that God will take care of me until it is time for me to die 🙂
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You know, that sounds vaguely like the prosperity gospel, BFA. Maybe god’s not making you wealthy, but he is certainly seeing to all your needs. Those poor suckers in Africa starving to death…god is sure not taking care of them. Do you think it’s ok they die because they aren’t “real” children of christ?
I’m almost afraid to get your answer on this one.
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Who said that they are not real children of Christ, I don’t believe in the prosperity gospel, my belief has nothing to do with what those bullshit salesman that claim to be Christian speak, I can’t say who is born of the Spirit & who is not, but I do know this God is the one that makes people suffer, & God is the one that takes care of people, the life of a Christian is about suffering, physical suffering, or emotional suffering, or both, are the people that starve to death in Africa children of God, no one knows that answer except the person that is starving, & God, God makes people suffer for His purpose, everyone is born to die, & God is the one that makes the choice in how each person will die, I reject the prosperity gospel, I don’t associate with anyone that claims to be Christian that speaks false, as for those who are not Christian, God is their judge, not me, I judge those who claim to be Christian that practice sin, & stay away from them
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Ain’t no, here’s what I believe – Matt 6:25-3425 “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? 26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27 Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life[a]?
28 “And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? 31 So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.
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Yes, I am very, very, very familiar with that verse. It was the one I clung to when I was diagnosed with a crippling, incurable disease, and also when my son was born with autism. Suffice it to say god did not figuratively or literally “clothe” either us, but I guess as a devout catholic I didn’t deserve such things anyway, because I wasn’t saved properly.
I think you have a good heart, BFA, but are a bit naive…you are one of the lucky ones who has enough health to not “need” a lot. I assure you if you were suffering from starvation or in agony from some disease everyday, you might have a different idea about being ok with the suffering you’ve been dealt. I can’t worship any god who made me for the explicit purpose of suffering, nor can I watch the deliberate suffering of others. That is a cruelty I will not abide. How can you bear it? Try not to answer this question with a version of, “because God is God”
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God has put me thru a lot of pain & suffering, I have felt the pain that leads one to commit suicide, but God protected me from killing myself, I don’t like watching people suffer, but I don’t control what happens, I understand that everything that happens is supposed to happen, therefore I let what’s supposed to happen, happen, if someone is not supposed to suffer, it won’t happen, it’s as simple as that
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I’m sincerely and terribly sorry you have dealt with suicidal thoughts…that is not something I would ever joke about or take lightly.
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The Kingdom of God is inside those who are born of the Spirit (born from above), the words that Christ spoke in Matt 6:34 to the disciples, were before they were born of the Spirit, they had to seek the kingdom of God because they had not been born of the Spirit at that time, a person that is born of the Spirit is led by the Spirit, therefore the person born of the Spirit does not have to seek the kingdom of God, the Holy Spirit makes the person who is born of the Spirit obey God, obeying God is being in the kingdom of God, many people that claim to be Christian don’t understand that truth, so they believe that they have to seek the kingdom of God, which turns into salvation by works, instead of salvation by grace, there is absolutely nothing anyone can do to be born of the Spirit, God makes the choice in everything, God gives a person faith to believe in His Son, then God baptizes the person in the Holy Spirit, & then God makes His chosen vessel obey Him by the Holy Spirit that lives inside His chosen, God does all the work, that’s what it means to be born from above
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Edit: I meant Matt 6:33, not Matt 6:34, also it should say, “chosen vessel”, not ” chosen”
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As fond of you as I am BFA, you do have the most aggravating habit of making everything in the universe about being “born of above.” It would be ok for you to add a little variety to your arguments, just for fun. Obviously I’m no magnificent wordsmith either, and look back on some of my own debates and sigh with regret (the one with DP earlier in this thread comes to mind), but if possible I try to not say the same thing over and over again. Mixing it up keeps people from falling asleep. 😉
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Edit: it should say Las Cruces, NM, not Lad Cruces, NM
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But- The rich whom God “sent empty away” were the Bad people. We’re the Good people. So glad we could clear this one up…
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Why do you think so many Christians willfully ignore the message about possessions?
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We make excuses. “Sell all you have, give to the Poor, then come, follow me.” It was addressed to one particular person. It would be impractical if everyone did it. God needs me here, doing what I am doing.
I gave a packet of biscuits to my Quaker meeting on Sunday. Does that count?
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Ah yes, reality.
Depends what type of biscuit.
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“So the questions remains, why have Christians warped such a clear message from the writers of the New Testament?”
Mostly because they only see what they want to believe is true, rather than actually reading scripture in context and letting God speak to them. I actually do not believe “God has blessed wealthy people,” nor do the majority of Christians I know. The TV however, does tend to highlight the prosperity ministers who try to make those claims.
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I’ll have a shot …. a speckled thrush if memory serves?
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Good guess. I thought the same, but when I got closer I realised it was a juvenile blackbird.
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Well, there you go! Been a while since I was in an English garden!
I discovered not too long ago that Blackbirds are actually a species of true thrush. That surprised me, I can tell you.
Nice photo.
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Violet, what on earth is that weird looking bird?
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Sheesh! Never get the hang of the drop downs …
A speckled thrush, I reckon.
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The mass of people who have trouble with Vi.w’s reply buttons has to be in the hundreds now. It makes for some exciting (and very confusing) conversation threads.
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Ignoring this!
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Subbing here, too.
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That’s just lazy commenting! Insanity did a response post about Financial Sins which I’ve yet found time to comment on, where there is some criticism of Zande’s communist theory, hehe. So some of the Christians agree with this in essence but think it’s not the same as ever being in any way socialist. They’re so in denial.
On a fun note, I was in Brazil! On the beach in Rio to be precise, at the expense of Air France who were afraid to land in Buenos Aires because of the Chilean volcano.
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and you didn’t call!!!! That’s it, you’re dumped!
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If we’d been stranded in Sao Paolo I would have been over in a flash to meet the dogs. And have a cocktail on the beach.
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I’m north of SP now, on the way to Rio. What did you think of it?
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Now that you’ve backed off the claim that Jesus commanded absolute poverty you are actually making sense. Good for you.
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Where do you get that? I’m not backing away from that at all. Did you read the passages from your Bible above??
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I thought you had backed off, since you did not state it explicitly and the quotes do not bear that idiosyncratic interpretation of yours.
The “Prosperity Gospel” has odious aspects but I don’t think the impulse is completely bad. Most people interested in it are black Baptists or latin Pentecostals, and it reflects some of the real problems of ghetto life: inter-generational poverty, welfare dependency, family disorders, crime, etc. If you find yourself in that situation, it is not a stupid moral question to ask: how does God want me to use money, what attitudes am I supposed to have towards work, does God want me content with this situation or or does he want me to find a better life?
Comfortable white Christians (and, apparently, atheists too) love shitting all over Prosperity Gospel, and maybe they are right to do so, but it strikes me as being thick and wrong to ignore the question.
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St Francis made a condition of his order absolute poverty. Monks were not even allowed to own a personal Bible. He sought the Pope’s blessing for the rule for his order. The Pope said it was too harsh, no one could live that way, but when reminded by his cardinals that this was in accord with the teachings of Jesus he felt he had no alternative but to approve the rule. After Francis died the Franciscans relaxed his rigid rules on poverty.
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I wish the Franciscans would actually help animals, rather than just riding on that unfounded reputation.
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It’s weird that more Christians don’t feel compelled to live in absolute poverty. It’s clearly what Jesus had in mind.
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