a question for Christians – what is heaven like?
As far as I can tell, Christians seem to have quite differing expectations of their impending afterlife. A quick google of Christian sites brings some interesting visions.
Some believe their god God sits on a physical chair traditionally reserved for human kings while supernatural beings sing about how great she/he is:
heaven is unseen and is the residence of God, including Jesus Christ. This is where the dead martyrs and saints are today. This is the location of the throne of God and where the holy angels surrounding His throne sing day and night, Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord our God. (whatchristianswanttoknow.com)
It seems unlikely to me that an all-powerful superbeing would enjoy this form of endless adulation, or would feel it necessary to be reassured of her/his greatness by lesser beings.
Some people are expecting opulence and earthly tokens of luxury and wealth in heaven:
Most of us have heard that heaven is a place where the streets are paved with gold, the gates are made of pearl, and the walls made of precious jewels. Those images come from Revelation 21, which offers us the most extended picture of heaven in the entire Bible. If you ask me if I believe those things are literally true, the answer is yes and no. Yes, they are literally true but no, heaven won’t be anything like we imagine. It will be much greater. (biblestudytools.com)
It seems unlikely to me an all-powerful superbeing’s perfect place would have streets, gates and walls. In fact, it just sounds like someone with a very limited imagination is describing what they see before them, but better. “Yes, just like here, only really fancy and expensive.”
Some people are looking forward to behaving like ghosts and also eating:
We will be able to walk through solid objects and still be able to touch and eat like Jesus did in John 20:27 and John 21:10-15. Paul tells us that “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven” (1 Cor. 15:50), so eating will be done for pleasure and not necessity. And Revelation 22:2 tells us that in heaven there will be a tree of life that bears twelve different kinds of fruit each month. Some think that there may be a feast each month when this tree blooms and a time of great fellowship as we gather around to share a meal together. (raptureready.com)
It seems unlikely to me that there will be bowel movements in heaven. It just seems wrong. So I don’t think there would be food either.
I really can’t bring myself to agree with these descriptions of heaven, even casting myself back to my Christian days. So I was wondering if any Christians would be kind enough to share their thoughts on what they think this place called heaven will be like. Are you expecting thrones and gold and singing? Would you be disappointed if you didn’t see your loved ones again? Do you think you’ll be eating and working like in this life, only you’ll be constantly happy?
I’d love to hear your thoughts!
Subbing to see where this goes
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Enjoy the tumbleweed … 🙂
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Not exactly a busy bus stop, this one… I’m someone will be along…. shortly
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Ha- you can’t do that because it scares the hell out of them. One of the points of religion is the denial of our own mortality. Asking them to comment on an afterlife is tantamount to having them admit it’ll all be over one day.
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I think they all have their own ideas but they wouldn’t necessarily like to air them in public because it’s demonstrates the level of speculation they pretend is ‘fact’.
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And fear, all wrapped into one.
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Naturally Violet, I gave you a whole blog post. 😉
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Thanks Insanity. A pretty selection of empty words. I could imagine that something lovely was beyond my imagination too, but it doesn’t give you any idea of what Christians truly expect. And they do have concrete expectations that defy reason. Families together, streets paved with gold, singing angels, a god that wants eternal worship and therefore specifically created things to worship it. Does it not all strike you as just a little odd? Living in true bliss while people they loved here are in eternal torment? Would you not worry that your free will had been stolen?
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How would one know they were constantly happy, with nothing with which to compare it?
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They’d have their memories of life here presumably. It’s just a big bundle of wishful thinking.
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I will be holding my breath
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Don’t do that mak! Remember the question I asked on my blog about the flood and sin? Still waiting for that “Christian” response. And I asked the question on 5/20/15. You’d be long dead by now — whether or not you’d be in “heaven” remains unknown … 😉
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I will remember that advice Nan.
Whenever I have asked for help with a question Christians should have answers for, they hardly ever show up
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You can’t really blame them. It’s not even like they would just be having a conversation with one person, they tend to get ambushed by a barrage of criticism.
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I would protect them for the heathens.
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Violet, InsanityBytes’ post is right on, though the quotes above are all accurate, too. But I suggest if you really want to understand on a visceral level, read C. S. Lewis’s The Great Divorce (not about marriage – 😉 ).
Mostly we don’t know what heaven will be like because we haven’t been there. But God is there and He can be trusted to prepare a place for us (as Jesus said He was going to do) that will be good. If people who had visions of heaven used terms we’re familiar with in the here and now (thrones and streets paved with gold, jewels and crowns), it’s really because we don’t have any other way to explain what is grander than what we know in this life.
One of IB’s commenter’s gave a helpful illustration. He compared this life and heaven to two dimensional depictions and three dimensional ones:
So, you’ve asked a good question, Violet, one that Christians are no better equipped to answer than anyone else. It’s just that we understand God to be real—more real than this earth because He transcends anything we know in the here and now. We look at the image and draw conclusions about the real, but in truth, the only certainty is God Himself, and we’re quite happy knowing He’ll be there because, frankly, He’s enough.
Becky
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And thus you delude yourself until there’s no longer a need for the delusion – 3000-year old dead men write something, and you believe it because it fulfills your emotional needs. I can see why you would find such a fairy tale appealing. I prefer reality.
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From my perspective, Arch, you’re calling the picture of the Lamborghini “reality.” I’m here to tell you, there’s something better than this pale reflection of true reality—the One you don’t acknowledge.
Becky
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“I’m here to tell you, there’s something better than this pale reflection of true reality—the One you don’t acknowledge.”
So you say, Becky, but you have only the words of anonymous, superstitious, scientifically-ignorant Bronze and Iron Age men to back up your assumption, so I would have to say that you actually have less than a pale reflection of what you believe to be true – more like a mirage, devoid of substance.
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Thanks for taking the time to comment Becky and for pulling over a quote from Insanity’s post too. I’d like more details on the claims that believers will be with loved ones and yet not concerned about other loved ones who don’t make the cut. Do you have any thoughts on how that works, especially if you have free will? I mean, there is no suffering in heaven but wouldn’t you suffer if you knew people you loved were in torment because their creator essentially didn’t like them?
“we’re quite happy knowing He’ll be there because, frankly, He’s enough”
But ‘he’ is only an idea in your mind, how the notion of ‘him’ be better than the full Lamborghini version of people you know in this existence? This is the god you believe ordered things like:
“A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD.”
“their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.”
“If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. They shall say to the elders, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.” Then all the men of his town are to stone him to death.”
I find the image you paint to be at odds with the words in your holy book. There appears to be a disconnect. You would be happy singing Holy, Holy, Holy for ETERNITY to a superbeing that sits in fancy chair? A superbeing you believe was responsible for encouraging the vile behaviour above?
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He’s most definitely not an idea in my mind, Violet. We people here are mortal whereas God is immortal. We are finite and He is infinite. We know in part, He knows fully. We love imperfectly, He loves without limits.
I’m surprised you’re still doing the verses-out-of-context critique of God, Violet. I think you’re more intelligent than that. Any “vile behavior” is not from God. That the Bible contains vile behavior is not an indication that God put His stamp of approval on it. Even when it comes to the Mosaic laws.
I think there’s plenty of indication that worship is only one of the activities that we’ll be engaged in during the life after this life. And as I already explained, the “fancy chair” is the best way to convey the place of honor God occupies as the Lord of all.
Becky
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“He’s most definitely not an idea in my mind, Violet. We people here are mortal whereas God is immortal. We are finite and He is infinite. We know in part, He knows fully. We love imperfectly, He loves without limits.”
“He” can be no other, Becky – you were certainly not born with any innate knowledge of “him,” or his attributes, they were fed to you by your significant others, who, directly or indirectly, received them from a 3000-year old book written by anonymous, superstitious, scientifically-ignorant Bronze and Iron Age men.
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And what knowledge did you know innately, Arch? Of course people wiser and more experience and knowledgeable taught me, as they have taught you. That you choose to ignore some instruction in favor of a different belief system, is certainly your choice, but you shouldn’t be confused by thinking that you came to what you believe in a different way from me.
Becky
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“I’m surprised you’re still doing the verses-out-of-context critique of God, Violet.”
I am too. What about those verses would make them the wishes of a benevolent being when seen in context? Seriously, I’m confused by your comment. I have sometimes pushed the boundaries of context to make a point, but these seem pretty straightforward.
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Numbers chapter 31 is a challenge to any apologist. As God directly commands Moses to attack the Midianites as a form of revenge. This was not about occupying their land, it was pure genocide.
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But they’d been bad, so it was kind of understandable. I mean we’d all kill children and pregnant women to demonstrate to other adults that their behaviour is unacceptable. Right?
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God did spare the virgin girls so they could be sex slaves.
The shocking thing is that in this story the behaviour directed by ‘God’ exceeds even the worst atrocity committed by ISIS.
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Sounds like, Peter, the scales are falling off your eyes.
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Then it is something you have been told by your preacher. You have no way of knowing any of the things you have written above, except, the part of your mortality for all we die. And even this you can’t experience personally
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Oh, I missed the first part of your comment:
First, any punishment isn’t because God doesn’t “like them.” Punishment is not something God carries out against innocent people, which is what most atheists seem to think. But we’ve had our discussions about the issue of sin, so I don’t suppose we’ll agree on this point.
I don’t know how God’s system of punishment works. There’s indication in Scripture that there are layers (which is, I suppose, how some people came up with the idea of the seven rings of hell). There’s even a couple verses that make it sound as if people will hear the gospel preached to them when they die. I don’t know if that’s true. All kinds of people have all kinds of theories and explanations, but the real answer is, we don’t know what it’s going to be like.
I doubt very much if we’ll think about the earth as it once was. As a matter of fact, the Bible indicates that the world will be re-created, and our life will be on the new earth, that God will be with us here (so our time in heaven will be temporary). So thoughts of the old life–doubtful. Thoughts of loved ones who are not with us? I don’t know.
Becky
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Becky writes: Mostly we don’t know what heaven will be like because we haven’t been there. But God is there … (emphasis mine)
I’ve found this answer seems to be enough for believers. But what puzzles me is who or what is “God”? “He” can’t be seen, felt (tangibly) or heard (in a audible voice). Yet Christians are content in saying they will be happy in heaven because “he” is there.
Becky adds, It’s just that we [Christians] understand God to be real …
Again, my question is how can you know “he’s” real? Of course the standard answer is by faith.
So if God is real only by faith, then it would seem heaven also is real only through faith.
Thus, if this is the case, then I guess the answer to violet’s question would be that heaven is whatever the believer wants it to be … through faith.
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violet — please fix my comment. Forgot to close bolding after the word “know”. Thx!
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The “how can you know” question seems to trip up a lot of people when it comes to God, but how can you know that the scientists are right about the cause of earthquakes or the existence of the “God particle” or black holes? These are not things you have seen. You assume the scientists know what they are talking about and take their word for it. Based on what? Perhaps you’ve felt an earthquake and the explanation you’ve been given fits what you experienced. Perhaps you’ve researched black holes and think they seem the best explanation of the phenomena scientists have identified. Same with the God particle. In other words, you know God in the same way. You listen to people who say they know Him and you see if what they say fits the evidence.
The faith part is no different than putting faith in the scientists who say the world started without a creator. Because you have free will, you get to decide which belief system more accurately describes the world.
And despite the criticism of an old book, I’ll take the witness of people who were here long ago and experienced God in ways that you seem to want–people who talked with Jesus and heard Him say He came to show us the Father, as one small example.
So, no, I don’t take heaven on faith. I take it on God’s say so and Jesus’s promises.
Becky
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Hi Becky
Not so long ago, I thought as you did. Now I just don’t know if the Bible is true. I used to think it was divinely inspired. Then one day I contemplated the Bible I asked myself ‘what if this is not true?’ Once I dared to consider that option I came to conclude that all the ‘issues’ I had with the Bible were better explained by it being a human, not a divine, book.
I prayed to God, pleaded with God, to clarify the matter for me. Perhaps God was silent for His own inscrutable reasons, or perhaps the silence reflected no-one being there to answer.
So my question to you, is ‘why do you consider the Bible to be a divine book?’
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“people who talked with Jesus and heard Him say He came to show us the Father, as one small example.”
Who would these people be, Becky? The first gospel was written 40+ years after the death of Yeshua, if he ever actually existed, the second, five years after that, the third ten years after that, and the fourth on or just after the turn of the century, all by anonymous authors who never met him nor had any idea what he did or said. So exactly who were those who heard him say what you maintain he said?
Science isn’t faith-based, as your religion is, it’s evidence-based. There IS no evidence for your god.
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Becky, I appreciate your response, but I’m still waiting for an answer to my question: who or what is “God”?
You have explained your personal reasons for knowing there is a god, but this doesn’t answer my question.
Believers are insistent that “God” exists. But how do they know? They don’t. And they can’t. It’s all based on faith, which is in essence simply a construct of the mind.
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Nan, God is the creator of the universe, or of the universes. He is best identified as God Most High—meaning there is no one better, more perfect, right, true, powerful, knowledgeable, creative, good.
You know, all the sports teams want to be number 1, but there is a number 1 in college ball, high school, professional–developmental leagues, and the majors. And of course, there’s a new number 1 the next year, and then the debate about who is the best number 1 of all time. And of course, these teams can only be number 1 in one sport. So we have multiple number 1’s.
When it comes to life, however, God is the only number 1.
We know Him because He revealed Himself to humankind through various means, including to a number of prophets who wrote down what He said. Then He revealed Himself more completely when Jesus came to earth. He said specifically He came to show us the Father.
Who God is and what He’s like are almost inseparable questions. Jesus shows us both—He’s the one who loves so much He was willing to die for us. It’s a pretty good place to start if you want to know who God is.
Becky
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“Then He revealed Himself more completely when Jesus came to earth. He said specifically He came to show us the Father.”
If this is your means of determining that there is a god, then we both have a problem involving your credibility – those anonymous authors who wrote of him began producing their works 32 years after his alleged death, and the last one to write a gospel, wrote his 70 years later – none of these were eyewitnesses, and only wrote from hearsay, testimony deemed of insufficient credibility to be allowed in any court of law, and certainly insufficient to base one’s life on. It wasn’t until Irenaeus [Against Heresies 3.1.1], writing in 185 CE, laid names to the authors of the gospels, that they were even named at all, and even those names, derived from Papias, whose own work is now lost, have proven Irenaeus erroneus.
“We know Him because He revealed Himself to humankind through various means, including to a number of prophets who wrote down what He said.</em"
Of the prophets of whom you speak, only Micah is known to have actually written his 3-page pamphlet. Zechariah is known to have written 8 of the 14 chapters in his book, while an anonymous author wrote the rest. All of the remaining books of the "prophets" were written as anonymously as the gospels. Anyone can tell a story, as long as they remain sufficiently anonymous that no one is able to fact-check.
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Becky, maybe you didn’t see my earlier questions. Fair enough. How do you know god, the one you happen to believe in is the only one?
The Muslim says the same things you say here about their holy book, are you a closet Muslim?
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Becky, I understand where you’re coming from because it has been etched into your mind that “God” exists. Period.
And because you believe this, you also believe such things as “he” is the creator, “he” is perfect, right, true, etc., “he” revealed “himself” through Jesus and the prophets, etc. But none of these responses answer the question: Who or what is “God”?
The thing is, you can’t answer the question. No one can. All believers can do is describe things about “God” — not who or what “he” is. Why? Because “God” exists only in one’s imagination. He is no more an actual entity than fairies, leprechauns, Peter Pan, or even the Cheshire Cat.
So in answer to violet’s question, phrased another way — Heaven is whatever a believer imagines it to be
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Becky, I see you think the above comment you quoted is a very good illustration. I am afraid it isn’t.
It is poor because in the case of the Lambo, it is possible for one to see one and compare with the image they have. Besides, even after seeing the Lambo, all you still have is an image.
We have no such image of a god with which to make comparisons. To say we are images of god is to assume too much. You nor the author have no such knowledge to make that claim other than claims in the bible.
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Violetwisp, here’s my question for you: what evidence would be sufficient to convince you that supernatural exists?
Becky
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Obviously not VW here, Becky, but it would do it for me if I could watch your Jesus float up into the sky – I’d get off the internet long enough to watch that.
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How do you know it would not be an optical illusion
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/ufos-clouds-bizarre-formations-sky-5884402
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“How do you know it would not be an optical illusion” – ‘Cause I’d grab his legs.
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A difficult question Becky. I’ve been asked it before and dedicated a post to it:
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