a post for Insanity about the sacrifice of parenthood
Having children is actually a great sacrifice, we give everything we have to help aid and nurture these little beings so they can make their way in the world. (Insanitybytes)
This rose-tinted view of reproduction seems to be mindlessly accepted in many societies. People talk of the sacrifices they make for their children and how their once selfish life has morphed into an ocean of selfless giving.
Let’s get something straight – having children is one of the most selfish acts humans indulge in.
People have their own biological children for lots of reasons:
- because they didn’t use appropriate precautions when they were having sex
- because they like babies and children
- because they want someone to love unconditionally who they believe will love them back unconditionally
- because they’re bored or their life feels unfulfilled without children
- because they’re curious about it
- because they feel an overwhelming biological urge with no grounding in rational thought
- because it’s normal, traditional and what everyone else does: a natural stage in the conveyor belt approach to life
- because the person they’re in a relationship with wants children for one or more of the above reasons
People never have their own biological children for selfless reasons. Moreover, they are playing Russian roulette with the existence of another sentient being when they embark on the experiment. How many people live horrendous lives, suffer immensely and have horrible relationships with their own parents? Every time a human chooses to bring another life into the world, they are taking this chance on their precious little bundle.
When people become parents they do NOT suddenly become selfless. Quite the opposite. They become more selfish than they ever could have been, but their selfishness is redirected almost completely in the direction of their own children. The wellbeing of their offspring usually becomes their overriding concern, as is the case for every successful mammal on the planet.
So spare me the parental sermon about how much we sacrifice for our children and what a selfless act being a parent is. The children didn’t ask to be born, we thrust existence on them for our own selfish reasons. The least we can do is make their existence as pleasant as possible, but let’s not pretend this in itself is an act of selfless martyrdom.
* Because they were raped and actually value human life and choose to have the baby.
Though I don;t consider that selfish at all. /shrug
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I wouldn’t consider your decisions selfish, though your pregnancy was certainly the result of the selfish(that is putting it mildly) acts of others.
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I would agree to that. 🙂
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Okay, well clearly that doesn’t quite fit the model…
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No no it doesn’t 🙂 and it is likely the exception to your stated rule.
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Pingback: On the Selfishness of Parenting…. | See, there's this thing called biology...
You are on fire V and I like it.
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Thank you! I’m glad someone does. 🙂
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Now I have seen someone ask if people who don’t have children aren’t being selfish. My answer is a simple yes. They are selfish. There is nothing we would do if we didn’t benefit someway.
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I think people do things that benefit themselves, or to their personal detriment but to the benefit of their family or their tribe. But there are also people who do things to benefit the species, or the world generally. I’m not sure at what level you would consider any of that selfless. Do you think it is all for self-gratification on some level?
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From where I sit, no act can be selfless. It will not be done. People will call it selfless act to raise the act to some level of praise, but to the keen observer, that is a lying to self.
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I think I agree, although I’m up for being proven wrong.
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I have been waiting for quite a while for a demonstration that I am wrong
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Interesting take on why people choose to have children. I think you can flip the argument to almost any choice a human being can make, though. I disagree with your hypothesis, but I can see the point you’re making. It’s been argued that people choose NOT to have children for purely selfish reasons. What are your thoughts on that?
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Thanks for your comment. It’s certainly possible for people to choose not to have children because they don’t want changes to their lifestyle. I’m not sure if that makes the choice ‘selfish’, as I can’t see the that alternative is selfless by comparison.
I know that when I chose not to have children it was for all the reasons I give above, but in full knowledge that my life would likely feel less fulfilled, given that I believe having children is a strong and natural instinct for most of us. I’m not judging the selfishness of the decision that most of us make to have children, I’m just commenting on on its nature.
Why would you consider having children to be selfless? Do you not feel that people generally do it to make their owns lives better?
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Not at all. I don’t disagree that the initial impulse to have a child, under usual circumstances, is a choice that could be interpreted as selfish. I think that eventually, selflessness has to be part of effective parenting simply because your decisions do not serve you first. That said, I don’t judge the choice to or not to have children one way or another – I was asking how your logic applies to remaining childless as that is considered “selfish” by traditional standards.
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Denise, how would a parent be selfless when taking care of their children? Or rather what do you mean by selfless
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The definition of selfless is putting someone else’s needs and welfare ahead of your own. Since that’s what MOST good parents do when it comes to their children, that’s what I mean. I’m kind of shocked at the responses, to be honest. What kind of parents did you all have?
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Superb parents.
Why are you shocked? Because we don’t see parenting as being selfless?
You only think you put someone interests before your own but you never do, not even once
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I disagree, makagutu. And, since you know exactly zero about my experience as a parent, I think we’ll have to just agree to disagree here. Have a great day.
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Saying you disagree with showing cause why doesn’t move this discussion forward an inch. Grant me this, give me just one instance where you have been selfless as a parent, just one.
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When I didn’t abort my son because my own life was at stake carrying the pregnancy to term? When I went into labor and my blood pressure shot up to stroke levels and could have died? When I spent the past 8 years raising him on my own and didn’t abandon him with my parents or his father to pursue MY OWN INTERESTS? Moving the conversation forward is great, and I’m all for it. You asked for one example, I gave you three. No, I don’t agree with you, and I do say that we’re going to have to agree to disagree here. Our perspectives are very different on this subject.
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Easy, a step at a time. No need to be in a rush. The sun is shining outside, it is a good day, let us be cordial, shall we?
Is there anything that you gained or stood to gain by not aborting your son?
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Nope. I chose his life over my own.
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Choosing the life of another over your own is the very definition of selfless. I will not say I was selfless for having my son against medical advice, against religious advice, against everyone’s advice. But it wasn’t selfish either. In your case this sounds very selfless.
Me I just couldn’t see sentencing the baby to death because of the way he was conceived. I was going to give him up for adoption because I couldn’t give him a good life. At fourteen I was fully ill equipped to raise a baby at any level.
That decision also not selfish nor selfless but just plain practical. /shrug
I certainly see sometimes parents do selfless things for their kids though. Some do. My parents didn’t have lots of money and raised seven kids. We hunted, fished and gardened but the one thing I can say we had in abundance was love.
Maka I know either of my parents would die so I could live. Is that selfless or selfish? I would die so my son could live and without a second thought to the matter. Is that selfish or selfless?
I believe parents can do selfless things. But that doesn’t make them always selfless. Parents can do selfish things as well. It’s a state of human nature vs human nurture. It doesn’t need be one of the other 100% of the time.
I am selfish for wanting so much of my sons time. I admit it. I want to spend time with him because I love him and it makes him happy and that makes me happy. In a way that is selfish I guess. Ultimately it’s my love for him and the desire to see him happy and yes in a selfish way it also makes me happy.
So I can see where children can be both selfish and selfless at differing times.
peace 🙂
You forgot the sun is shining and the wave are jamming!
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Have you benefited from this choice in any way?
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As in, did I choose to carry the pregnancy to term looking to benefit? No, of course not. Have I benefited indirectly as a result of having him? Sure – just like I benefited from any life experience I’ve had to this point. However, it still doesn’t make the choice ultimately selfish. Your logic doesn’t hold.
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Denise, I said we are having a conversation. Stop jumping to conclusions. I said one step at a time. Besides what logic are you saying doesn’t hold? I only asked you a simple question.
So if you are still up to it, you say the benefits have only been indirect? And let is stick to one issue, please. Let us not be all over the place.
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And I said, we are done with it, as the conversation keeps going in circles. You enjoy your day, Makagutu.
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You’re heading into an emotional minefield. I for one think it’s pointless. People understandably find it difficult to break these things down.
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You are right.
It is only by breaking issues down that we will get to the bottom of it.
She has given me examples that almost look like emotional blackmail. Anyone reading them immediately sees them as selfless and I as insensitive for thinking otherwise
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No no, I wasn’t saying you are heartless or nothing. Only that I can see both selfish and selfless decisions made through the life of a parent/child relationship. It just doesn’t have to be 100% selfless or selfish. There is an ebb and flow to emotion and even selfish vs selfless choices.
I see wanting so much of my sons time as selfish on my part. Yes he is happy spending time surfing with mom. But it’s me wanting to catch up on years I missed while my parents raised him. Their decision to take their grandson and raise him maybe have been an example of both selfless and selfish behavior.
On the one hand he was conceived in rape and they still raised him with so much love and wisdom he turned out great it had to be hard raising him knowing what it did to me to have him. On the other they didn’t want anyone else raising him because he was their grandson.
Just it’s not as simple as saying children are 100% selfish or selfless choices because they can be both or either at different times. 🙂
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Michelle, I know you haven’t said I am heartless.
Ask your parents if raising your son meant anything to them. How they felt about it. Why they did it.
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They raised him for many reason I am sure. Some selfish, some selfless. One was because it was in the childs best interest to be raised by relatives who would and could shower him with love and a stable home. pretty selfless. One was because they loved him and couldn’t see giving him to anyone else to raise. Maybe selfish?
Either way ever decision it seems can be selfish and selfless depending on your view.
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I would like to know this selfless ones. That alone is my interest
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As I said any decision can be viewed either way depending on the view of the person critiquing the decision.
You don’t feel saving a babies life even while risking your own is selfless but I do and by the very definition of the word it is exactly that selfless. The needs of others before your own. The babies life before her own would be seen by many as selfless. But seen by you has having a selfish motivator.
Therefore selfish vs selfless is seen via the prism of the on looker. I doubt Denise ever once said you know I’m going to do the selfless/selfish thing of having this baby. No she said I believe life is worth saving and I am going to do everything I can to honor my belief in that. She didn’t ask is this selfless, she just did it.
I didn’t choose life for my son because it was selfless nor selfish. I choose life because of my personal beliefs. On lookers have said it was selfless of me to risk my own health for the baby and I say nope just what my personal convictions said was right. I didn’t consider it selfish either, it was just the choice I made that I could live with myself making.
the ability to live with ourselves is not a selfish motivation. It is just a reality based upon our beliefs of right and wrong. How others see it in the prism is how others see it. I can;t nor won’t change your mind because that is your prism. All I am demonstrating is decisions don’t need to be selfish nor selfless to the one making them, they are merely seen as such by the one analyzing the decisions. Pretty simple really.
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Michelle, I am afraid you bringing things into the discussion that I haven’t mentioned. For purposes of clarity, let it be known that the benefit may not be known beforehand. It is only with reflection that one may come to this realization.
Now, I am going to give an example to help make my point clear.
You must have read about that fellow Jesus, who died is said to have died on the cross.
Had he for example known he would be going to hell, I doubt we would be talking about him now. So he suffered so that he may benefit in the end and so it is with the fireman who goes to rescue an old grandmother in a burning house. He has been trained to do that and in the eyes of his colleagues, it is an act of bravery. By doing it, if he should survive, he will forever be beholden to his colleagues and he will be happy he saved the grandmother
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See but through your prism he is not a hero, he is just doing his job he was trained to do. He did nothing selfless by risking his own life. I say the otherway. Sure he is trained for this but to willingly rush into a building to say grandma is both brave and selfless. Why? because he was safe and ultimately didn’t have to do it.
perspective. It’s all in the perspective of the one analyzing the event.
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With perspective, a tall building looks short and a short one may as well just look tall. It is to avoid perspective that I clearly defined what I mean by selfless
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Your fireman to me would be acting selfless that is my perspective.
Training be damned, bravery be damned. You still need to be selfless to risk your life for a stranger.
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What type of person do we have when we remove training and bravery?
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The same type who would have done it without the training.
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How can having a conversation be so hard?
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I don’t see how people who never have children are selfish. They either can’t have children (which is usually the cause of great anguish) or they don’t want children. If they don’t want children and they force themselves to have children (for what reason?) they are probably foolish. Would you agree?
“I think that eventually, selflessness has to be part of effective parenting simply because your decisions do not serve you first.”
I understand. But in serving your children you are essentially serving yourself.
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1) People that CAN’T have children don’t fit this model (to use your words when you were given the example of someone who has a child as a result of rape) because it does cause a great deal of anguish for them. However, the people that choose to not have children are considered selfish -their motivations to NOT have children are always self involved (get ahead in career, don’t want to be tied down with a child, I like my life the way it is, etc.) Again, I don’t really judge anyone harshly when it comes to that – better to know going in that you aren’t cut out for something than to have a baby and feel that you’ve forced yourself to do something that’s unnatural for you. Taking care of your children properly isn’t serving yourself, at all. There are parents who choose their own interests ahead of their children’s and yes, I see those people as selfish. However, the sacrifices and struggles that accompany raising a child do not leave a whole lot of room for parental selfishness.
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To use the same argument you advance here, Denise, the people who have children want to conform, want to be accepted in society. They don’t want to be seen as selfish for wanting instead to advance their careers.
Maybe the issue at hand is here what your understanding of selfishness is.
Mine is simply that we can’t act if we don’t stand to benefit. Nothing more, nothing less.
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self·less
ˈselfləs/Submit
adjective
concerned more with the needs and wishes of others than with one’s own; unselfish.
That is why I say choosing the babies life over your own is selfless.
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Makagutu – once again, you highlight how dramatically we disagree. I understand selfishness. I didn’t have my son to be accepted in society – never crossed my mind. Really, this conversation isn’t advancing – it’s going in circles. Selfishness is a single and sole minded focus on what benefits you, to the exclusion of the people around you.
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Denise, are you so bad at conversation?
I didn’t in my response say that was you. I only turned the argument you were advancing on its head.
Why are you so concerned with how we disagree than with having a conversation?
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Rude, much? Circular conversations bother me, as they are a huge waste of time. I am not concerned about our disagreeing as much as I am acknowledging it so that I can end the conversation before it circles again.
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Rude? far from it.Today happens to be one of my good days.
Have yourself a good day. It is impossible for us to have a decent conversation.
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Exactly why I tried to put a stop it several posts prior to you asking me if I was bad at conversation, Makagutu.
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Now I know. Rule number 1, don’t attempt a conversation with Denise
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More like if you want a conversation, keep the tone conversational and not antagonistic.
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I will remember that. I am at a loss though where I have been antagonistic in this thread. If asking questions is antagonistic, then you and I can’t have a conversation
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This response is to Michelle below.
Choosing the life of another over your own, is not the definition of selfless, not that I know what it means to be selfless.
Your parents dying so you could live is far from selfless. What would your living mean to them? Would it give them joy in the knowledge that by their dying you live? Will it make them stand above their fellows, for example, to be remembered as having been exemplary?
It is fair to want to spend time with your son. I find no problem there.
I didn’t mention waves because I am far away from the ocean 😛
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Bummer you need an ocean, some waves and a board! 🙂
Well I see being willing to die for my son as selfless. I am young and have much life to live but if it was me or him I’d willingly die. I think that is selfless to give up your life for another. Not because you have to either.
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Every time I go down to the coast, the humidity and the heat is unbearable. It works for a short duration
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No it is not selfless to give your life to another.
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I’m not sure I want to get into this. But where’s the ‘I want someone to look after me when I get older’ option? I mean, specifically that. Free old age care. Because I have heard people say that.
Over and above that, I’m apathetic. Bit like religion. Not interested in that or kids. I missed out on that whole maternal instinct thing.
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Oh, that’s a particularly selfish reason. People really say that??
I missed out on it too, until I had kids anyway. My partner has it in large doses though. I love analysing the chemical stuff, like sniffing the baby’s head fills me with profound joy and a sense of contentment. Most odd.
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Yes. They do. A bit silly as your kids might fall out with you or not want to look after you or clear off to the other side of the world.
I must admit, I find the ‘people who don’t have children are selfish’ mentality irritating. Your point above encapsulates it about why have them if you don’t want them. Anyway, someone’s got to keep the world population under control 😉
My aunt described having her daughter as a mistake. In front of her 😦 Great way to boost confidence eh?
I do think couple should discuss children more though instead of assuming it’s a given with a relationship/marriage. We’ve met enough men who don’t give two hoots about their kids. One put his outside because it was screaming and he didn’t like the noise. Forgot about it and fell asleep. In November.
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“My aunt described having her daughter as a mistake. In front of her 😦 Great way to boost confidence eh?”
Horrendous. I seriously think we should all have basic parenting classes when we’re pregnant. People say the stupidest things to their children that really mess them up.
I can understand putting a baby outside because of the noise though. 😉
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How bizarre. I agree that there aren’t good reasons to have children. We have simply been prepared for it by our history. Calling it selfish is a bit of a reach I think – close to saying taking up space is selfish. Kind of, yeah, but everybody’s doing it.
Calling it a sacrifice is even more of a reach, though. Do people really have children because they feel it’s their duty?
My kids have given and taken in regards to my self. I am not keeping score and can’t imagine it any other way.
But I found myself motivated to have children. I wouldn’t have otherwise.
As for the risks of being born, most of us are sick optimists, and it does work out from time to time, which is enough to keep a sick optimist going.
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“As for the risks of being born, most of us are sick optimists, and it does work out from time to time, which is enough to keep a sick optimist going.”
It is far better to be a sick optimist than a healthy pessimist.
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“Calling it a sacrifice is even more of a reach, though.”
That’s my point! I can’t stand people wallowing in the martyrdom notion for the things they’ve done for their kids – giving birth and making choices that don’t just suit them. Having children is a decision made primarily for the benefit of self. There is nothing wrong with that and it’s obviously perfectly natural. But to turn it into a selflessness event is tedious, and lazy thinking.
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I don’t think it’s selfish to have children.
I don’t think it’s selfish not to have children.
Our real problem is that we spend time caring about other people’s reproductive choices when we should be making the world better for the people on it and the people who will be on it one day.
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