christian logic: slavery and homosexual marriage
The The Isaiah 53:5 Project has a very interesting post, Does the Bible condone slavery?, which is an interesting attempt at justifying the unhesitating and enthusiastic support for slavery scattered throughout their written moral handbook, the Bible.
It struck me on reading it that any Christian who agrees with the argument laid out in the post, must also agree that same sex marriage is fine according to the Bible.
Let’s see how the logic used applies to same sex marriage.
Skeptic: “You know your Bible contains a small handful of verses that mention promiscuous homosexuality. But nowhere does it ever condemn same sex marriage.”
Believer: I agree.
Skeptic: “Well, why not? If the Bible is the word of God, why wouldn’t it clarify such issues?”
Believer: In a sin-fallen world, the battles we fight have to be chosen carefully. The same thing goes for the manner in which those battles are going to be fought.
Skeptic: “Explain.”
Believer: The Bible was never designed to serve as a manifesto on controversial social issues. It is rather primarily the story of how God, over time, has worked His sovereign will in this universe, and is still able to do so, through the hearts and minds and lives of those who trust Him.
Skeptic: “But same sex marriage isn’t just a social issue. It’s a moral issue. Isn’t the Christian Bible supposed to be a moral guide?”
Believer: Of course. But as a rule, the best way to change moral behavior is to transform moral views. And guess what. Beginning in the twentieth century, many people, Christian and otherwise, began to realise that homosexual people could have productive and non-harmful long-term relationships, in the same manner as heterosexual couples. Sodomy was abolished as a crime and decades later it became acceptable for gay people to marry and even be preachers.
Skeptic: “But why doesn’t the Bible just come right out and condemn homophobia in so many words?”
Believer: Did you know that in the Old Testament, there was no framework for same sex couples to live together as long-term partners? All the references to condemning promiscuous homosexuality come hand in hand with references to condemning promiscuous heterosexual sex or greed or other ‘sins of the flesh’.
Skeptic: “But what about in New Testament times? Why didn’t Jesus, as a moral authority, speak out boldly against homophobia and in support of same sex marriage?”
Believer: “Well, numerous New Testament texts, such as Matthew 19:12, Matthew 8:5-13, and Galatians 3:28, make the case for the inherent spiritual worth of every human being regardless of sexual orientation, which effectively laid a base for deep down authentic change in social practice, over time. God’s way is often to work from within, dealing primarily with the spiritual component. Jesus was typically apolitical. Otherwise, encouraging direct confrontation over such a hot button social issue may have fomented revolution, providing Rome with a political excuse for persecuting Christians.”
Skeptic: “Well for me, homophobia is homophobia. It’s wrong, it’s immoral, and the Bible should be against it.”
Believer: On the contrary, homosexual relations in Bible times significantly differed from homosexual relations in modern times. It was not based on the long-term commitment of two consenting adults in love.
Skeptic: “In the Old Testament Book of Leviticus 20:13, homosexuals are actually condemned to death. And Paul had strong opinions on the matter too.”
Believer: Again, the Bible primarily details the account of how God has chosen to deal with the tragic results of a sin-fallen world down through the ages. While recognizing the reality of promiscuous sex of any orientation, the Bible never actually mentions same sex marriage. It rather gives every human being a spiritual basis for worth, dignity, equality, and hope to face difficult circumstances.
Also, in the end, the Bible teaches
“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
– Matthew 22:36-40
Hard to make the case that the God of the Bible condones slavery or that the Bible asks Christians to condone slavery when the second part of the greatest commandment is “Love your neighbor as yourself.”
Matthew Henry’s Commentary explains that commandment like this.
“It is prescribed, that we love our neighbor as ourselves. We must honor and esteem all men, and must wrong and injure none; must have a good will to all, and good wishes for all, and, as we have opportunity, must do good to all. We must love our neighbor as ourselves, as truly and sincerely as we love ourselves, and in the same instances; nay, in many cases we must deny ourselves for the good of our neighbor, and must make ourselves servants to the true welfare of others, and be willing to spend and be spent for them, to lay down our lives for the brethren.”
All seems rather clear now. Thanks for your helpful post!
https://thei535project.wordpress.com/2015/08/20/does-the-bible-condone-slavery-2/
Quakers are there before you.
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Or before The Isaiah 53:5 Project, it’s their logic.
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Am I confused for a reason?
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.
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Confused? Why? I think this post resolves the question of gay marriage once and for all! All the activists can pack our bags and go home 🙂
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Well that doesn’t help! Now I’m even more confused 😦
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I was being sarcastic.
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You don’t say 😉
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“Am I confused for a reason?”
Did you skim read and not reference the original post? It’s specifically a post for them to chew on (no sharp jabs). I do hope some Christians who agreed with the original post find time to pop over.
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James banned me so I have no inclination to pop over for a read.
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It’s sad when people have no argument but still believe they’re right.
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That pretty much sums up why he banned me. I asked him why over on Godless Craniums blog. He said he banned people for rudeness and personal attacks. I pointed out to him that I’ve never been rude and have never attacked anyone personally. Silence.
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I might do a post on banning, it fascinates me.
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OH YES! A Thousand million yes’s! Ark and I and Tildeb and Arch can give you the list of sites we’ve been banned from, and you can link them all. We can have an intervention 🙂 🙂 🙂
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Okay, sounds like a worthy exercise!
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I suspect the lesson in irony you’ve done so well here, VW, will be lost once again on I535project. (He doesn’t seem able to do irony. And he certainly doesn’t learn from those who point out his problematic reasoning.) And that’s unfortunate because you’ve nailed it.
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Or he and Violet will get married, move to the Hebrides and start their own religion 🙂
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Sort of a nouveau-druid mouton sect… in woolly blue robes, maybe?
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Thanks for commenting tildeb, it’s a relief it makes sense to at least one person. Now, maybe if one of those Christians who agrees with the slavery post pops over, I can find out why they’re not so keen on homosexual marriage using the same reasoning.
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Having tried to engage with the folk over at Isaiah 53:5 on the subject of slavery I have concluded that they interpret the Bible based on what they think it should say rather than what it actually does say.
In fact if we come to slavery Jesus did mention it, but never condemned it, his references to it accepted it as normal.
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I’ve been banned by James.
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Me too. Makes me proud.
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LOL!
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“they interpret the Bible based on what they think it should say rather than what it actually does say.” It does seem to be a common problem with many Christians!
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Nice.
The bible actually gives instructions on how to keep and own slaves, instead if just condemning the practice.
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Hey violet-
Do you think that endless repetition of saying ‘gay marriage’ will magically lend credibility to the absurd?
After all, there was this woman who married her horse; and this must make you equally happy. For why deny her the right of changing a word to suit her…………
Male and female! It’s really not that hard to fathom, and please do not lower yourself by crying ‘intolerance.’
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I’m so sorry you are unable to tell the difference between adult human informed consent, and communication with the rest of the animal world. Perhaps that’s the level of argument we’re faced with?
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No V, it’s not about consent. I have said on numerous occasions that a person is free to do as they please.
I am simply drawing attention to the changing of meanings of words. It’s simple really.
Nut/bolt oil/vinegar sun/moon male/female.
Marriage is a fine word, and clearly understood, and has been for ages. Seriously, ‘get another word’ for ssm…… le mirage?
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“Marriage is a fine word, and clearly understood, and has been for ages.”
Then maybe you need to get another word for your concept of marriage. I believe you are the one who perverted its meaning from the original concept of ‘give a man two goats for his virgin daughter so that you can spend the rest of your life beating the shit out of her as you use her for a baby factory.’
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Colourstorm, are you married?
You have so much to say about marriage that i think it fair for yu to tell us if you are, in fact, married.
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What on earth makes them think that slaves would be considered ‘neighbors’?
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Ooh, nice point! You should pop over to the original post with that question.
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It looks like Jon Darby brought it up and received no response.
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Odd that. No response.
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i can’t imagine why…
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yes, I always find that interesting how that works.
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Jon, I share your frustration, I find that continually over at James site. When I go to the effort of raising substantive issues, I get either no response at all or one that does not address what I raised.
I should add, that you raise some very good points over on James’ site.
Actually what frustrates me the most is some of the folk there who just copy and paste their responses from http://www.gotquestions.org/ and think they have dealt with the issue.
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Thank you – I have notice that too that so many questions are answered with, “Here’s a link.” I don’t mind reading something, but it seems like it’s always either a stock answer or, as you said, it doesn’t really even answer the questions. Plus, several of the people there have flat out said that they have no intention of reading any link you offer, be it on evolution or whatever.
I certainly don’t expect that someone reply to every comment I make, but when certain points are raised and all you hear is crickets, it seems rather telling.
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