some poetry
Batter my heart, three-person’d God, for you
As yet but knock, breathe, shine, and seek to mend;
That I may rise and stand, o’erthrow me, and bend
Your force to break, blow, burn, and make me new.
I, like an usurp’d town to another due,
Labor to admit you, but oh, to no end;
Reason, your viceroy in me, me should defend,
But is captiv’d, and proves weak or untrue.
Yet dearly I love you, and would be lov’d fain,
But am betroth’d unto your enemy;
Divorce me, untie or break that knot again,
Take me to you, imprison me, for I,
Except you enthrall me, never shall be free,
Nor ever chaste, except you ravish me.– John Donne, 1618
I’ve never been one for poetry. So it’s odd the acknowledge that this was my favourite piece of writing when I was about 17.
At the time, I think it appealed to my sense that I needed a closer relationship with the Christian god God, whose existence I’d been instructed was FACT from birth. I had no doubts at that point in my life that he existed, but I wanted more. I wanted to be changed and made anew. Actually, I probably just wanted superpowers and reassurance that impending adulthood came with a safety net.
Now I read it and remember the pain especially in those first few lines – the sad, self-pitying denial of my worth as I was, and the desperate desire to place responsibility with a higher power. The poem hung around my head with ferocity in the slow years of the deconversion process.
It’s a good little sonnet. John Donne was a master. My favourite line is now the last one:
Nor ever chaste, except you ravish me.
Poor, sad man. Christianity and sex drive can be a challenging mix.
I will readily admit that more than half the time, poetry goes over my head
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Me too. I think I can face sonnets because at least they can’t go on for very long. I was saying to John that I’m having a similar problem reading his book. If something isn’t in plain English (lots of flowery language and adjectives) my brain tends to get a bit scrambled. It’s very odd. It probably places me on some sort of spectrum …
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It’s not odd at all, Violet. Most of the world’s garbage is elaborately cloaked in intellectual gobblygook.
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I’ve had the same problem, Violet. I keep going back and having to re-read what I’ve already read of it. It’s the same reason I have had a hard time reading The King James version of the Bible. All that intellectual gobblygook. 😉
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Ah yes ruth, the kjv 1611, the monarch of books, the anvil that has wore out every hammer which has lifted a broken hand against it, and sent every piece of metal to the graveyard of irrelevance………do tell of one sentence of intellectual trash.
(May as well just lay your hammer aside, for even the devil in all his genius, finds scripture faultless)
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An anvil, indeed. For those who take it’s every sentence literally an anvil to crush the heads of those who disagree. We can start with six literal days of creation, ride on up on Elijah’s chariot, and drown in the great flood. People choose to believe that which is not supported by facts, nor history, nor science. That is all fine and well, but intellectual it is not.
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I notice ruth you did not acquiesce my request 😉 to provide ‘one sentence………’ You opted for a word here and there, all true of course, but nope, not one sentence.
By the way, your stating the scriptures are not ‘intellectual…’ please ruth, your slip is showing.
The opening verse TRUMPETS all intellect, spoken to mind, heart, and conscience. In the spirit of poetry here……….For whom the toll of the bells rings clear. Be honest; you may not like it, you may choose not to believe it, but do not say Genesis 1.1 does not speak to the intellect.
‘In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.’ By virtue of reading, your intellect is called into play.
A judge in a courtroom may say ‘it is not true……………’ but he would be foolish to admit it is not a matter for the intellect to engage.
When you say ‘intellectual it is not,’ your credibility is severely weak, as your attempt to dismiss scripture proves the exact opposite.
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Oh, CS, just because intellect is engaged does not make the material intellectual. Even that garbage that IB referenced is cause to engage the intellect if for no other reason than to employ the logic necessary to decide whether or not is is garbage.
Using your line of reasoning there is nothing that isn’t intellectual. My slip is showing? I think your caught with your pants down, CS.
You want one sentence that is garbage? “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.” For there is not one bit of verifiable evidence to back that claim up.
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Here ya go ruth:
True poetry as it were, compliments of the Creator:
Time, space, matter; all contained in the opening of scripture. Pure intellectual stimulation.
There is no other document on earth with such revelation of truth and facts contained in seven words as the opening announcement which gives credibility to everything that follows, as well as putting in place the attempts of man to dismiss it.
God and His word have always been light years ahead. ‘For ever O Lord thy word is settled in heaven.’
Give me your tired and weary hammers………..give up your borrowed and rusty arguments………..give place to He who supplies light, food, warmth, hope, and love.
But tks for supplying one sentence, question remains: what will you do with the information presented. Your choice, as always.
‘I think I shall never see a poem so lovely as a tree……….poems are made by fools like me, but only God can make a tree.’ J. Kilmer
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You present the information as fact and your only argument for it is contained in scripture. Using scripture to prove scripture? Here we go ’round the mulberry bush.
Perhaps that is the only intellectual stimulation you need, CS. Meanwhile, the rest of us live on earth.
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@ruth,
Once more you missed the obvious.
Mr. Kilmer also was a poet who used his intellect to speak and write of God.
The post concerns poetry so………
but being a writer and poet, he must have had mental issues……..no wait, he was simply a person one among millions who drew inspiration from the obvious design by a Creator, and had no issues giving credit where the inspiration came from.
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I don’t necessarily think that all people who believe fantasies have mental issues. I don’t count them as insane necessarily. Confused, maybe. I’ll informed, maybe.
Perhaps rather than things being so very obvious, as you say, there is more than meets the eye. What is obvious is that you don’t concern yourself with facts, only what you choose to believe.
I provided you with a sentence from The Bible as an example of intellectual garbage. You have yet to provide one scrap of evidence to the contrary other than some rather verbose ramblings of what you and other people believe. Not a fact in there anywhere. Only assertions which you only back up with yet more assertions. As I said, here we go ’round the mulberry bush.
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@ruth
And I PROVED to you that you selected the very worst of texts to support your claims of ‘intellectual garbage…………’
Why?
Once more, contained in the thunderous word that silences all mouths…………..is space, time, and matter………..
ahem, cough, cough, all things front and center in 2015. NO OTHER BOOK contains such awe and foresight as well as truth ruth.
For God’s sake stop arguing with yourself.
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CS, you’re making yourself sound foolish, not me. You have yet to prove the veracity of the claim you’re making. You’ve only made assertions that it is true and used some poet’s writings to attest it. As I said before, believing the truth of the claims made in the Bible is all well and fine but it is faith in that which cannot and has not been proven. According to you the mere stimulation that a lie provides is intellectual. Pretending that those lies are reality or intelligent does not make it so.
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Space
Time
Matter
Gen. 1.1
Put that in your pipe and smoke it. What other literary work can even stand in the same ball park………
Correct, zero. It’s ok ruth, many have been thought to be fools. There is always room for one more.
c ya
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One man’s trash, another man’s treasure.
Have a lovely day, CS.
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Aw, you love him really. 😀
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Of course. He’s very…colorful. I like colorful.
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Oh, that’s so sweet! He even did a post for you – pingback at bottom of this post. 🙂
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Oh my! Don’t I look the fool now?
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Did you read it? Honestly, in my wildest satire dreams I couldn’t come up with stuff like that. Well done for providing the inspiration!
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Yes, I did. It’s awesome! He’d give Zande a run for his money on word usage and satirical impact! Of course, if you can’t buy a finger off the shelf at the local big-box store it must truly be miraculous!
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No ruth, you don’t look the fool. There are many rich men (and women) under a raggedy set of clothes.
Looks are quite deceptive. And riches are always subject to interpretation. A man who lives in a refrigerator box would call a man who lives in an abandoned auto rich.
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One man’s trash is another man’s treasure, CS. My point still stands. People do not believe the scriptures based on intellect. They have faith in the unbelievable. That which cannot be proven with intellect. You’d do well to stop pretending otherwise.
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That’s precious, CS. The KJV has many sentences of intellectual trash, starting with “In the beginning” and ending with “Amen.” My favorite part of it includes unicorns. Because, you know, the writers were so filled with the spirit that their deity didn’t let them know about the majestic rhinoceros.
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@Colorstorm
do tell of one sentence of intellectual trash.
Even better! Here’s four sentences.
Lo, Colorstorm, said the Lord. Oh, why art thou such a gigantic knob-head?
From whence from does all your incontinent verbiage flow?
I AM the Lord Most High and will wipe my arse on your hubris and posturing.
Then yank the chain, and flush away your maudlin scribblings.
KJV. 1611. Apocrypha – Gospel of the Miscreants. Chapter 3. Vs 21.
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“I was saying to John that I’m having a similar problem reading his book…It’s very odd. It probably places me on some sort of spectrum …”
You’re quite normal, you have the ability to recognize “intellectual vandalism.”
Summary of zande’s writing: “This is some of the best awful, meaningless writing I’ve ever read. I have to assume that you wrote this execrable prose on purpose, and applaud your success at producing such delicious dreadfulness. Of course, since it’s only further elaboration on the previous paragraph, it needs no response other than on the writing itself. Its sheer appalling lousiness needed to be acknowledged. Zlork (this is zande’s god) would be pleased… if you even believed he existed.” – x-Praetorius.
save yourself the headache of reading the book and head over here to see zande’s entire world view completely decimated.
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Thanks for the link! I’ll pop over and read it tomorrow. I’ve read the first few chapters of John’s book and I think it’s excellent – I just object to wading through adjectives because it slows me down terribly. The argument so far is hilarious – there’s nothing Christians could separate from their own theories they believe ‘prove’ the existence of a god, but his god unfortunately (for Christians) actually makes sense. Just as well it’s all made up! 😀
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Actually, I read Zande’s book and I found it quite enjoyable. Furthermore, I’m a bit skeptical of the review you linked. Has xPraetorius actually read Zande’s book, or is he following suit with other religious reviewers that don’t feel the need to read what they critique?
In times like these, I’m reminded so often of Christians who lament atheist critiques of the Bible without having read it. I’m sure you can empathize with how embarrassing it must be when Christians get caught mocking what they don’t understand.
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Why would John’s entire world view be decimated? He’s an atheist taking the piss out you and your god?
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I wondered that, too, Ark. Apparently Mr. x missed the fact that John’s book is satire. In the process of decimating John’s entire world view he’s essentially decimating his own. smh…
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Mr xP is a really obnoxious brand of Christian. I can’t remember whether I first saw him on Bigot or Insanity, but he’s that swaggering, arrogant male type that reminds of real-life Christians I’ve come across (never come across a SOM or Insanity in real life). I’m looking forward to reading his review anyway. 🙂
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Sorry, where was the bit where John’s entire world view was in any way dented?
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I had not seen that poem.
I have been repeatedly broken and ravished. I am unsure, yet, quite how significant my ravishment was on Thursday: this psychiatrist put a spoon into my head, gave it a stir, inspected me for a moment then pushed me out again to make of it what I will. Possibly I can make something good of it. Perhaps, rather than God, or Synchronicity, or whatever, this is Reality giving my illusions a good kicking. I don’t know if your lessons in increasing maturity have come by insensible degrees and by delightful Aha! moments. My lessons have come by me sticking stubbornly to the wrong way of responding, and suddenly coming to the end of the rope. Donne says that, and I say, Yeah.
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Is there a ‘wrong’ way to do things? I guess if it’s harming us. Is that what you mean? We only learn by mistakes, by getting to the end of bits of rope ..
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There are better and poorer coping strategies. Among mine were the complete suppression of feelings, seeking to make a man of myself, etc. This is how I see Donne’s metaphor: the battering, ravishing, “break, blow, burn, and make me new”- all those epiphanies, where I reject the poorer coping strategy, or way of interacting, which have undeniably failed, and embrace better ones.
I don’t think one could have that reading of the poem, aged 17. I did not have such epiphanies until my thirties. And I don’t judge myself before those epiphanies: my coping strategies worked as long as they did, they were the best I could come up with.
So I think your interpretation of Donne as “poor, sad man,” thinking himself rubbish and in need of God’s healing, is 180° wrong. He is giving thanks for healing, just as I do- through the ministrations of Reality, if not God.
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John Donne started with a racier style, before he became religious later in life.
A poem from his earlier phase, ‘to his mistress going to bed’
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Oh yes, I remember. Our English teacher dwelled on these too much, in a creepy kind of way with his class of young girls …
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I wonder what sort of depraved person I must be? I studied John Donne as a teenage boy, 38 years ago, and have not looked at his work since, and yet as soon as his name was mentioned this particular poem came to mind.
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I don’t think it’s a challenging mix. It’s the easiest way to encourage people to feel guilty so they keep coming back for forgiveness.
Like shooting fish in a barrel.
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Ha, indeed. A challenging mix for those who have to balance it.
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“Poor, sad man. Christianity and sex drive can be a challenging mix.”
All in good humor here Violet, but who do you suppose created that mix? We are wonderfully and fearfully made and designed to pull closer to Him, in mind, body, and spirit. In the Western world everything has become separate, so sexuality is falsely perceived to be the antithesis of spirituality and science the antidote to God. The true merging of those concepts, the symbiosis of that threefold oneness, is something our poets of old understood well.
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Glad you enjoyed the poem! I guess the men sitting in the room trying to work out a way to control people invented it – is that what you mean?
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“I guess the men sitting in the room trying to work out a way to control people invented it – is that what you mean?”
Violet, do I seem controlled to you? I suppose in some ways I am, but actually it feels more like freedom, unbelievable, blessed freedom.
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It’s amazing how you still remember this after more than 30 years. 😉
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Oooh cheeky. Unfortunately you needn’t have winked, it’s too close to accurate to be funny.
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