why do you champion oppression?
The question of whether abortion should be legal seems to polarise public opinion, particularly in the USA these days. As part of the trend for strangers to decide whether individual women choose to host another growing human being in their body, there are a lot of posts talking about ‘genocide’, showing horrific pictures of mass graves of murdered people. Here’s Wally, linking to one such post.
As genocide is an attempt to wipe out an entire group of people, based on race, ethnicity or religion, I can only assume that this label has been chosen for purely emotive, rather than factual, purposes. And as the mass graves displayed show the vicious murders of fully developed sentient human beings, rather than unsentient clumps of cells or partially developed potential human beings, I can only assume the images have been chosen for purely emotive, rather than factual, purposes.
In fact, there’s not much about the anti-abortion argument that is based on anything factual, and there’s a lot that is based on appeals to largely irrelevant emotional reactions.
In terms of this emotional reaction, I’ll be the first to admit that if I saw a pile of terminated fetuses (which presumably we’re supposed to imagine), I’d be sad, undoubtedly horrified. But I’d have to analyse exactly what that meant: no actual agonising pain or suffering that fully developed humans who are murdered go through; no individual life in progress, with a sense of self, that has been deliberately cut short due to irrational hatred.
To the people who want to remove a woman’s right to choose safe and legal termination of an unwanted pregnancy, I have to ask: why do you champion oppression?
Why do you think your sense of sentiment over a life that never was should condemn a woman to months, possibly years, of physical and psychological torture? Why do you think it is good for unwanted children to be forced into existence, given all we know about the effects of poverty and lack of parental attachment?
But most of all, why do you campaign to outlaw abortion, instead of focusing on ensuring birth control is easily available and free, and comprehensive sex education is universally delivered, thereby significantly reducing the numbers of unwanted pregnancies in the first place? Because even taking into consideration the strongest misdirected emotion in the world, the only answer I can find to this final question, is that the main concern of the anti-abortion one-pronged attack, is oppressive control over women.
I can find to this final question, is that the main concern of the anti-abortion one-pronged attack, is oppressive control over women.
Bingo.
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Oh, not used to you agreeing with anything I write. How odd. 🙂
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Apparently, it can be discombobulating. Take deep, even breaths. In through the nose, out through the mouth.
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Why do you feel the need to oppress the appeals to emotion in arguments for laws that directly affect the lives of thousands of sentient women?
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Hmmm, although I have missed your excellent writing, I can’t quite make sense of that comment. Eh?
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Ha. My I-agree-with-you-but-want-to-say-it-in-a-way-that-sounds-like-I-disagree-in-order-to-poke-fun-at-you-while-also-supporting-you fu is weak.
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Phew, that’s a relief! I’d hate to have to formulate a response. Looking forward to your postings!!!
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Evangelicals have no idea what they’re on about, and that shines through every time you get in a dialogue with one regarding abortion. Wally, in this instance, is simply parroting the group. He wouldn’t be able to defend his position in a thousand years, but defending it isn’t why he posted that article.
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“He wouldn’t be able to defend his position in a thousand years” I think that’s unfair, I’m sure he’ll gallop over here shortly and try his hardest. Drum, drum, drum …
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I give that zero chance of happening.
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Why champion oppression? Because other people should not be having sex, goddammit! If they are having more fun than me I feel all righteous and angry and resentful, and if sex causes problems for them, I want those problems to be absolutely as bad as possible, so I can feel smug and happy that they are miserable because it SERVES THEM RIGHT! Sex is for baby-making, not for fun! I have to follow the rules, so they should too..
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Oooh, that makes perfect sense! Maybe I’ve been too influenced by my rad fem lurking. Not really about controlling women, just sour grapes.
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But most of all, why do you campaign to outlaw abortion, instead of focusing on ensuring birth control …
This is the crux, is it not?
I have been open about my personal views regarding abortion but ignorant, flatulent arse hats such as Wally simply make my blood boil.
And John is correct. Wally could not defend his position and would ultimately be forced to refer to the only authority he knows – the bible.
The money invested to demonize and criminalize women over this highly sensitive and emotive issue has always struck me as disgusting and immoral.
But this is the religious way is it no?
Guilt, fear and threats.
They make me absolutely sick. A bigger bunch of hypocrites you will unlikely ever come across.
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Yeah, I don’t deny it’s a difficult one. I don’t object to concerns about the vast numbers of such an unpleasant procedure, but I do object to completely avoiding looking for practical solutions to cut numbers.
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I’m full on wrestling with abortion. I have one question that keeps lingering that holds me, and that is: When does the fetus become a baby/living being?
I was wondering what you think of this.
Thanks for posting this when there’s so much controversy on it. All thoughts are helpful in this discussion,I believe.
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Hi Heather
At no stage does “life” magically appear in a zygote, a blastocyst, embryo, or foetus. Life began on earth 3.8 billion years ago and hasn’t been interrupted since. A foetus was never inorganic and suddenly becomes organic. For this reason, the only true method we have to distinguish the onset of a distinct, functioning human being is when the brain begins to exhibit sustain EEG activity, and this begins at around week 25, although it is not until 28 weeks till we see full bilateral synchronisation. That is when you may call the foetus “On.” After week 28 it can therefore be turned “Off,” and meet the legal, scientific and medical definitions of death.
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Thank you for responding. I see that this is a complex topic. I guess my main thought on all this is that, looking at it in both view points, the woman is the one who is responsible in either case, choosing to abort or give birth to the baby. No matter what the woman’s stance on abortion is, there are pressures from both sides, since it is so controversial. My point is that I don’t think you can wrap up this topic by coining it genocide nor oppression. No matter what, biologically and somewhat unfortunately, the woman is solely responsible for the determination of her future as well as the future of the fetus.
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I agree, there is a lot of noise. Most of it senseless. Ideally, any discussion concerning abortion should begin with prevention, not access. Using emotive words like murder and genocide don’t help. Such language cannot even be justified, because, to put it simply, before week 28 (although safer to say week 25) how can you “kill” something that cannot “die”?
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Thanks for reading and leaving a comment.
“When does the fetus become a baby/living being?” Hmm, I agree it’s a difficult one. Personally, for yourself, it’s whenever you feel it. Technically, legally, morally, John has given a good indication, but I’d add that it has be what trusted healthcare professionals and scientists judge it to be. And by ‘trusted’, I don’t mean anyone who is influenced by specific religious teachings, I mean people who base their conclusions on facts about the developmental stages of the fetus, and, crucially, the well-being of the mother. The consensus surely lies where the majority of healthcare workers (decent, caring, smart, informed, empathy driven human beings) are willing to terminate a pregnancy. Bear in mind they are the people who have the pick of the mess of the botch home jobs that inevitably occur when women are denied access to legal abortion facilities.
The fact is that we can’t ban abortions. They are more prevalent in countries where they are illegal, and the side effects aren’t pretty. The work of the religious anti-abortion lobby in the USA only seems to serve to limit access to abortion services for many women – often ensuring that when they can eventually access a service, they are later term than they otherwise would have been. It’s horribly counter-productive.
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I try not to champion oppression, but that’s easy for me to say. “I never DID anything to them!” True, and yet I AM something that oppresses them.
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I don’t know, I’m working my way through it. This idea of uniformly blaming individuals based on a group characteristic seems rather silly.
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Yes, Violet, at its worst it is silly, but I do benefit from structural inequality.
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Undoubtedly. As do I, in many other respects. As do most people, in some respect or another.
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Have you seen this? http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/feb/18/michigan-catholic-hospital-women-miscarriage-abortion-mercy-health-partners
Maybe they support oppression because the bishop has said so
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Through the doctrine of double effect, it is held to be morally acceptable to mutilate a woman by removing her fallopian tube with an implanted foetus in it, but not to remove the foetus from the tube without harming the tube.
Before caesarian section, when the baby’s head was too large to pass through the birth canal the only option was craniotomy, killing the baby. The Catholic church forbade this procedure- you can’t kill the baby, even though the only possible result of not performing it was the death of both mother and baby.
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I am linking to my own blog again, and put in the wrong one: here is a summary with quotes of the moral argument by John Paul Bioethics: https://clareflourish.wordpress.com/2016/01/22/the-catholic-church-and-abortion/#comment-22091
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That was a great post, really informative.
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Thank you.
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Horrific, thanks for sharing it here. The Catholic Church has a lot to answer for, shame there’s no supreme being there to give them rollicking at the end of it all.
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The pope is the supreme being. He was praying for Mexico’s poor. I am waiting for media reports that they have now become rich.
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Abortion is always going to be a tricky subject because it does, like it or not, involve the voluntary ending of a living thing.
I’d like to respond specifically to some of your statements Violet –
“….there’s a lot that is based on appeals to largely irrelevant emotional reactions.”
Why do you deem these particular emotional reactions as irrelevant? If you are saying that upholding some emotional reactions as relevant in some instances while saying that dismissing some emotional reactions as irrelevant in other situations, I’d say you are on slightly dangerous ground there. Emotional reactions such as being upset at the loss of human life are either relevant or not, I don’t think we can start saying sometimes that reaction matters while other times it doesn’t. I can imagine a whole lot of not so nice outcomes when we start thinking along these lines…
“…no actual agonising pain or suffering that fully developed humans who are murdered go through”
May that not depend on exactly what stage of development we are talking about (like at 14 weeks a baby is moving and kicking and possible even sucking its thumb – whose to say it does not feel pain then?) In any case, who is to say that there is categorically no suffering at all involved very early on in development? We may not have the science available yet to know for sure.
“no individual life in progress, with a sense of self,”
But there is an individual life in progress. And linking worth of life with a sense of self can be potentially dangerous too. Does a newborn have a sense of self? Or a person with severe and degenerative mental illness (e.g. schizophrenia) or intellectual disability? I don’t think it’s a good idea to link sense of self with worth of life.
“…Why do you think your sense of sentiment over a life that never was should condemn a woman to months, possibly years, of physical and psychological torture?
Some women who have abortions suffer psychologically (e.g. immense regret, grief, loss) regarding their decision. Some women (not all) also who seriously consider abortion but decide against it, find that their feelings are very different once the child is born. Therefore I think it is unbalanced to speak of every case of abortion as saving a mother from potentially years of physical and psychological torture.
Why do you think it is good for unwanted children to be forced into existence, given all we know about the effects of poverty and lack of parental attachment?”
I know of families, married couples with children, who have abortions because the “timing isn’t right”. Not all abortions are due to such dire circumstances as extreme poverty (in any case, poverty, while terrible does not automatically guarantee a terrible existence). And parental attachment is not always something that occurs while a child is in utero – in many wanted pregnancies the mother-to-be does not feel a strong and warm attachment to her child until well after it is born. I don’t believe that potential lack of parental attachment is grounds for ceasing life.
“the main concern of the anti-abortion one-pronged attack, is oppressive control over women.”
Or could it be that the main concern is a carefully considered regard for human life, whatever stage of development. Even though a foetus is just a bunch of cells – we are all ex-foetus’s are we not? And many of us were born into poverty, hardship, or were parented by parents who struggled to care for us properly. But no one is saying we shouldn’t exist because of these factors.
There are many incredibly complex reasons (as well as some purely very selfish ones) that women undergo abortions. This is not a debate that can, or should, be so simply dismissed as oppression of women. In addition to a woman’s individual rights, there are clearly other issues at stake in this debate. Always have been, always will be. I don’t think this debate will ever go away, nor do I think it should. The day we stop thinking and debating about when it is ok to legalise the end of human life (even thought these debates are hard and full of emotion – on both sides!)…well, that it not a day I would personally like to live through.
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A lot of comments, I almost missed this one!
“Why do you deem these particular emotional reactions as irrelevant?” Please see the context of the post. Piles of fully developed human bodies mass-killed in a frenzy of hate is appealing to a level of shock and disgust that is not applicable to individual women making decisions to terminate hosting an unsentient growth within their body, based on their personal evaluation of all pertinent considerations. Not like for like. Appealing to irrelevant emotions.
“We may not have the science available yet to know for sure.”
I think we know enough about brain development at this stage. The connections to even start making it possible until 25/26 weeks:
“I don’t think it’s a good idea to link sense of self with worth of life.”
Not in isolation. But anti-abortion campaigners like to show fetuses doing things like sucking thumbs or fetus twins ‘holding hands’ to suggest that there is a sentient being making choices and being aware. That is misleading.
“Therefore I think it is unbalanced to speak of every case of abortion as saving a mother from potentially years of physical and psychological torture. ”
I never said every case. If abortion is made illegal, as they people campaign to do, they would certainly be doing this to many women. Although, as every country where it is illegal demonstrates, those most desperate will still risk their lives to end the pregnancy by any means.
“I don’t believe that potential lack of parental attachment is grounds for ceasing life.” I never said it was. I asked why anti-abortion campaigners want to force women who have already made the decision they don’t want to have a child, to do so knowing all the potentially negative consequences for this child. What would you do? Tell a woman she’s wrong, she might like it? We don’t know the alternative outcome of anyone’s personal decision about anything. We do know that in general, children are more likely to thrive, be happy, have choice in their lives, if they are planned for.
“Or could it be that the main concern is a carefully considered regard for human life, whatever stage of development. ” No, look at the context. Look at the world. The easiest way to cut the numbers of terminations is to give people decent sex education and reliable and affordable birth control.
“Even though a foetus is just a bunch of cells – we are all ex-foetus’s are we not?”
I’m sorry Serenity but that is just such a silly argument. We’re all here by chance, by random acts of sexual activity producing random combinations. So what if we weren’t invented? Get some perspective on life and our place in the universe. Most of these clumps of cells don’t even grow into babies – what were they? From a Christian point of view, it’s even more absurd. It’s a soul that your god God is taking care of, so actually existence should be easier for them.
“I don’t think this debate will ever go away, nor do I think it should. ”
As long as people are getting pregnant by mistake or by force, there needs to be a discussion. The availability of safe and legal abortion facilities, should a woman choose it, should not be part of that discussion.
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Thanks for your rely Violet. In response:
“What would you do? Tell a woman she’s wrong, she might like it? We don’t know the alternative outcome of anyone’s personal decision about anything. We do know that in general, children are more likely to thrive, be happy, have choice in their lives, if they are planned for.”
I agree, in general children are more likely to thrive when they are planned for. However, even children that are not planned for can thrive. I would never tell a woman that she is wrong or that she might feel differently later on. I agree that the availability of safe and legal abortion facilities is an important (but I think sad) necessity. However, what I would advocate for is greater consideration of the complexities of abortion, including aspects like:
the absence of debate regarding the man’s wishes,
or the sometimes life-long psychological and emotional consequences for some women who (in hindsight, often after going on to have other children) largely regret their previous decision,
or most especially for the women who are seeking an abortion because of extreme pressure from a male partner (as an aside, pregnancy is a known risk factor for partner violence).
““Even though a foetus is just a bunch of cells – we are all ex-foetus’s are we not?”” I’m sorry Serenity but that is just such a silly argument. We’re all here by chance, by random acts of sexual activity producing random combinations. So what if we weren’t invented? Get some perspective on life and our place in the universe. Most of these clumps of cells don’t even grow into babies – what were they?”
I get what you’re saying here but I still think these kind of arguments end up devaluing human life. I don’t know what early human development “is”. But it is obviously the earliest beginnings of an unique human being. On the flip side, when women miscarry a pregnancy, even if it is very early, there is often grief for the loss of that potential life. Are we to suggest that men and women who grieve an early miscarriage are grieving “nothing”?
“From a Christian point of view, it’s even more absurd. It’s a soul that your god God is taking care of, so actually existence should be easier for them.”
I’m not sure exactly what you mean here…from a Christian perspective there is the utmost regard for human life no matter what (regardless of age or stage of development, presence or absence of disability, race, gender, crimes committed etc). In this worldview, all people are created in God’s image, and it is therefore very difficult to advocate for or accept the notion of terminating life, even though Christians will uphold and individuals right to choose. My point was, that all of us miraculously started as simply a bunch of cells and, to me, it is sad to think that had my mother experienced such dire circumstances that she could not entertain the thought of carrying me to term, that I would not be here today. I think that is a sad thought for both her and myself. However, if circumstances were that dire, well, I suppose I couldn’t really blame her for her choice, but then, to me it is sad that anyone has to make such a choice.
In any case, I am no expert on abortion, these are just my personal thoughts and reflections.
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“what I would advocate for is greater consideration of the complexities of abortion”
Fair enough, I can’t disagree with that. I don’t personally think it’s a decision that should ever be taken lightly.
“On the flip side, when women miscarry a pregnancy, even if it is very early, there is often grief for the loss of that potential life. Are we to suggest that men and women who grieve an early miscarriage are grieving “nothing”?”
Not at all. They are grieving what might have been, they are grieving a painful loss of hope and wishes for the future. In the same way, some people cry every month they haven’t conceived, that too is grief for a child not conceived. On a positive note, most people who do miscarry go on to have successful pregnancies and fully formed children. They would never have known the child they love if the miscarriage hadn’t happened.
“However, if circumstances were that dire, well, I suppose I couldn’t really blame her for her choice, but then, to me it is sad that anyone has to make such a choice.”
I can’t even get my head round that one! You wouldn’t blame your mum if she’d aborted you. (!?) Does every soul exist in a pool waiting to be popped in a body? Would you blame your god if he’d allowed you to be miscarried?? Anyway, I agree, it’s sad that anyone has to make that choice. But I’m glad we live in a time when it’s a choice, and not desperate self-harm.
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