the sins of the EU
We’re in a state of shock, confusion and horror in the UK. The chattering classes are chattering about how this could have happened, how we can fix it and what form of ignorance led people to vote to leave the EU. But what if we’re underestimating what has happened here? What if those who voted to leave weren’t deceived by campaign lies, weren’t voting based on hateful xenophobia and weren’t simply voting against the government in a fit of pique?
Perhaps some educated people out there have a window into evil sins of the EU that have previously remained unidentified.
I’m happy to say I’ve found at least two such Leave supporters: one who even knows the difference between a xylophone and xenophobia; and someone who has examined the facts in serious detail and has concluded that food banks in the UK only exist because of the EU.
Let’s examine the words of the xylophone expert first.
For the first time ever, I can look at my kids future in this country with a real sense of freedom, hope and opportunity, rather than the dread of knowing that they would most likely be persecuted for their faith under the laws of the politically correct neo-Marxist EU.
Everything I fight hard for can be summed up in the referendum result. Freedom, democracy, common sense. I never dreamed I would see it in my lifetime. WE ARE FREE!!
But I think the best thing is that I know that at least 17 million people feel the same way I do. The sleeping giant has awakened. WE ARE BRITISH! AND BRITAIN IS GREAT! (faithinourfamilies)
It had obviously escaped my attention somewhere along the line that the EU was persecuting people for their faith. Surely freedom of religion is quite protected:
All persons have the right to manifest their religion or belief either individually or in community with others and in public or private in worship, observance, practice and teaching, without fear of intimidation, discrimination, violence or attack. (Council of the European Union)
The only clash I can find between alleged religious freedom and the EU comes in court decisions supporting the rights of gay people. So, I can only conclude that there is concern over the possibility that within Europe, Christians wouldn’t be able to discriminate against homosexuals; while safely within the anti-neo-Marxist confines of the UK, discrimination against gay people will be positively protected in the name of religious freedom.
Any other suggestions?
Because Britain is Great. And that’s important because the god God teaches people to celebrate their own culture and national identity at the expense of others. I think if Jesus was alive today he would be scathing of international political arrangements that bring protections for workers on the lower levels of society and lay out agreed standards for basic human rights.
Now, let’s examine the food bank problem.
In 2013 the Red Cross announced they would start distributing food in the UK for the first time since WW2. Food banks have cropped up all over the UK this century. Why? Just. Why. People do not have enough money to buy food. This is the EU of progress. (RoughSeas)
This is a new one on me! I didn’t realise people in the UK had to resort to food banks because of the EU. Unfortunately, Roughseas hasn’t provided any sources for this undoubtedly well-founded conclusion (I’m sure there’s a Daily Mail or Daily Star article out there that she could have linked to).
I can find experts linking to numerous credible sources pointing to delays in current government benefits schemes. Oddly enough, nothing to do with EU. Much like this:
For instance, it’s not uncommon for someone with severe mental health problems to be rejected for Employment and Support Allowance and placed on Jobseeker’s Allowance instead. They are then immediately sanctioned because they are too unwell to meet the job application and training requirements for JSA claimants. “Before, you’d see people who have been without help for a couple of weeks, but now it’s not uncommon for people to go without comfort for months,” Williams said. (New Statesman)
Perhaps after considering all these bloggers have to say on the ‘more informed’ and ‘educated’ side of the Leave campaign, I’ll stick to my prior conclusion that the whole Leave campaign is supported by the small-minded, bigoted lies of people desperate to blame negative aspects of life on something not from the great Great Britain.
(It’s not Great, by the way. It’s just another little country that had a chance to contribute to improving human society by working in co-operation with its neighbours. Let’s see who Little England finds to blame next.)
If it weren’t tragic, it would be funny. Roughseas (like others) buys into the fantasy because it’s a convenient fiction: Blame a third party. The Tory government’s cuts aren’t the fault of the Tory government, they’re the fault of Brussels? Sure! Bedroom tax, higher university fees, cruel assessments on disabled individual’s ability to work… are the EU’s fault? Funny that those things aren’t happening in France, Germany- or even Scotland!!! All part of the EU.
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I’m still scratching my head about her food bank comments. I thought she might like to pop over to defend her fine journalistic credentials by giving some sources (given that she’s told me she’ll delete my comments from her site and I can’t start the conversation there).
I suppose she’s got in a muddle about the wasteful EU food mountain scandal, which doesn’t actually influence the fact that people can’t afford to buy food because the Tory government has messed up the benefits system so much.
I’d like to scrap my local government and have something that’s more effective, efficient and intelligent. I’d like to pull out of our national government and have something that’s more effective, efficient and intelligent. But I realise that despite their faults, each political institution has purpose – they provide valuable public services, protections and ensure we all work together at their various levels.
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The most absurd part of it is people seem to be yearning for a past that they didn’t actually experience. Life was by no means Downton Abbey or Dynasty for most people. It surprises me how short people’s memories seem to be.
Do you remember how much *less* comfortable life was 30 years ago? In the pre-technology, pre-globalization days? Much of what we have access to today were fantastic luxuries then. Quality of life has increased exponentially. We live longer, we insulate homes properly, we have double glazing. Less people die in car accidents.
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http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/five-laws-the-european-union-helped-stop-the-tories-from-passing–ZygyRM8GAEZ
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Great link, thanks! Although it just makes me more depressed ….
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I unfollowed K**** because of her transphobia, but was wondering what she had said about the EU. I am glad I didn’t look, now.
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The transphobia is but a symptom. If you look closely there’s a very complex emotional web *a fleur de peau*. A sense of unfulfilled entitlement. She’s being attacked, robbed, her rights encroached upon- now evil Spanish workers cross the border into Gibraltar (legally, to go to their jobs) and this is an affront to her very being. Those damn workers doing their work for salaries! How very dare they!
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Has she done a post about that? I’ll have to investigate her archives.
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Yes, recently. Some odd line about “Gibraltarians” being unemployed while Spaniards cross the border to work. The funniest part of that is that she’s not Gibraltarian, she’s English. She and her partner *immigrated* to Gibraltar. Meanwhile Gibraltarians and Spaniards from that area are very closely related, with many families often living on either side of the border. About 1/3rd of the homes in the area we lived in in Spain were occupied by Gibraltarians…
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It’s a curious attitude. Reminds me of Argus (woof woof) – the English immigrant to New Zealand constantly ranting about immigrants. Like you said before, English people who relocate to other countries can have a tendency to see themselves as ‘expats’ – which they see as an entirely different beast to their identified problematic ‘immigrant’, who simply has no business being allowed to leave their birth country!
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There’s something terribly misguided in this sense of proprietorship and entitlement that affects a sector of the British population. The other day we met a British couple who complained for a full thirty minutes about how outrageous it is that “no one here speaks English in the shops.” Consider how absurd that mindset is?! It basically means the entire population of another country should be obliged to learn English for the convenience of the occasional British tourist. To not do so is outrageous.
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In France?? Hilarious.
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IN FRANCE!!!! And not touristy coastal France. Farm territory, cows, goats, and my neighbors keep chickens France. Not an airport in sight.
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Yes! That type of attitude is mind boggling. One almost expects there to be a general hue and cry about not being allowed to shoot natives any more, like in the Good Old Days,what?
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I doubt I’ll unfollow here, she posts on interesting topics. Quite often with a wonky point of view that is worth commenting on. Kind of like Insanity used to do before she got incredibly boring. 😀 (Ssh, don’t tell her I said that).
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The xylophone expert sounds almost as coherent as a Trump supporter here in the US.
I call Trump supporters, “trumpets.”
That’s because no matter what, they all just blow.
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We so rarely agree, SoM, that I thought I’d take this moment to notice it…
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I am no fan of the EU, don’t get me wrong.
And I’ll be standing there on election day blowing someone else’s little trumpet (because it’s hard to blow your own) because voting for Hillary is even more unimaginable.
But poor reasoning is what it is, nevertheless.
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I’m shocked SOM, I thought you would have agreed with her.
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I’m really astounded by your elitism, Violet. I don’t mean that unkindly, we have the same kind of thinking going on in the US and it puzzles me.
You said, “The chattering classes are chattering about how this could have happened…” Stupid, uneducated, “bigoted,” working class me, predicted this was going to happen long ago. How come all the well off elitists and the chattering class are so clueless, shocked, surprised? This is a bit like the rise of Donald Trump, for five long years I’ve been like a canary in a coal mine trying to get people to listen, to see the cause and effect going on here, to change course before the tsunami hits.
If you don’t know “why,’ you should and if you don’t, than you really have no business declaring “the whole Leave campaign is supported by the small-minded, bigoted lies of people desperate to blame negative aspects of life on something “
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You can look up the stats if the referendum votes. The university graduates and the young voted massively in favour of the EU.
Plus, racism and racially motivated threats and violence have exploded in the UK.
Given that no one can give a factually accurate account of why voting leave was a good thing, and that the campaign rhetoric was racist… I think we’re perfectly capable of saying the campaign was racist and ignorant.
I’ve spent days looking for a leave voter who can assuage that worry… and I’ve failed.
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“I think we’re perfectly capable of saying the campaign was racist and ignorant.
I’ve spent days looking for a leave voter who can assuage that worry… and I’ve failed.”
There was a big email discussion at my work, only one person on the Leave side. He was concerned about the austerity measures imposed on countries like Greece and Portugal, the harm it was doing to their economies and their population, in terms of unemployment, discontent and resultant xenophobia. Here’s a document he linked to (I haven’t read it, but might now):
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Sorry Insanity, I don’t really understand your comment. Perhaps you’d like to point to your canary posts from several years ago predicting the rise of Trump and Brexit, that give your sound sociological analysis of the factors influencing these movements. Otherwise I’ll conclude you’re just trumping (as SOM might say).
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Reblogged this on Allallt in discussion.
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I readily admit that I am not as informed about Brexit as I could be, but did begin your post hoping that maybe I wasn’t going to read the another tongue-wagging denigration of a whole swath of fellow people, calling them necessarily fearful and stupid because they differed from you politically. I was disappointed.
You know, it’s fine to have even huge differences but when you start assigning the motivations of utter stupidity and evil to those on the other side, instead of entertaining the possibility that they had substantive reasons, and that they acted from valid conviction, just as you did…you lose any chance at anything but tribalism.
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Thanks Madblog. I’m sure there was never a chance I’d blog about anything you agree with. 🙂
The problem with your concern, is that people who voted Leave are readily admitting they don’t have a clue what Europe is about, but voted mainly to try and stop immigration. And the problem with voting for this reason is that it now seems quite apparent that nothing will change in terms of immigration. They were lied to. The campaign (ie the politicians leading the campaign for Leave) hooked on to people’s fears and basically lied to them. Read about the lies I linked to above:
https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/opinion/talking-politics/214051/four-brexit-fibs-lies-damn-lies-and-the-eu-referendum-campaign/
People were also told that £350 million a week would be transferred to our national health service before the vote. The day after the vote, one of the two main campaign leaders said that was a ‘mistake’ and was not going to happen. Can you understand they were lied to? Can you understand that they were ignorant to believe what were obvious lies? I have no other way to express it. Perhaps you could look into it and get back to me once you understand what happened here.
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In this crazy world, we may very well end up on the same side one day. 🙂
But ascribing less-than-human status to your political opponents gets you nowhere. However, it does a lot for the political forces who depend on you to carry their water and be their mouthpiece. Don’t you see the rank elitism in your attitude? Do you think that you are the free and original thinker, while those people are lap dogs? I have to tell you, by your own words, it doesn’t look that way. Maybe look past your own news sources and consider the issue from sources that present their view fairly? Worth a try?
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Did you read my comment at all? Campaign of admitted lies that cynically latched on to blaming foreigners for everything. There’s a fact, so attach your own judgement to it.
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Whatever you or anyone may think of her, Madblog makes a valid point.
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There’s an issue of consistently overlooked discontent and disenfranchisement certainly. That’s what the Leave vote tapped into. Whatever I think of that, it doesn’t change the fact that most people voted on pure ignorance led by base fear of foreigners in a campaign of lies. Or do you have evidence to the contrary?
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I think voters on both sides voted with a degree of ignorance, Violet, and necessarily so. It is a complex issue, not reducible to platitudinous and facile conclusions. You ask me for ‘evidence’ to counter a claim you yourself make without evidence – the onus is on you in the first place, but all you have is hearsay and anecdotes. You may be right, and you may not be. As to ‘campaigns of lies’, then that is an accusation that can be fairly levelled at both sides.
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Em, if that makes you feel better. If you want to listen to the radio or turn on your TV you can catch some real live people who want to change their vote. Opinion polls suggest at least a million:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-referendum-bregret-leave-petition-second-remain-latest-will-we-leave-a7105116.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/im-full-of-regret—extraordinary-moment-brexit-voter-changes-he/
Also, when we refer to degrees of ignorance, it’s impossible to suggest that anyone could know every potential outcome from either decision. My point is that most people who voted Leave had no conception of what the EU is or does for their communities or their rights. They voted to leave the arrangement based on false promises about controlled immigration and more public spending. They were ignorant in being duped as much as anything else. What parallel are you drawing from the Remain campaign? What level of lies have I missed that are in any way comparable?
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Thankyou, but I don’t need to ‘feel better’ about anything. And you accuse me (below) of being patronising simply because I use your name as a matter of courtesy! 🙄
The vote in England was 53.2% for leave vs. 46.8% for remain, so even your million putative mind changers would leave a narrow and highly divisive margin (a split) here in England – still no good for social cohesion.
As regards the Remain Campaign lies you asked for, then I’ve copied this which I posted at Pink’s yesterday:
Osborne lied about his emergency austerity budget, Cameron lied about invoking Article 50, Sajid Javid (Tory Business Secretary) put on an utterly cringe worthy denial of all he and the Tories said on Andrew Marr’s show yesterday, the idea of a second referendum keeps being pushed by Bremainers who days previously were insisting there was no second chance, and that this was it. Together, they said interest rates will rise in the case of Brexit and devaluation, and now we hear that a cut is more likely, if anything. Two weeks ago the FTSE was at 5,923. As I write, it’s 6,039. Sterling against the Euro is higher today than it was for most of 2012, the whole of 2013, and the first third of 2014. As I see it, both sides lied and used hyperbole throughout the campaign, with the notable exception of Corbyn, who now is getting it in the neck from the miserable Blairite PLP for not being a devout enough Bremainer.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36642662
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Okay, let’s look at Osborne on interest rates:
So, he said it was “likely” and gave his rationale. Is that a lie? No. Do we even know what’s going to happen yet? Of course we don’t, it’s guess work.
Talking about the value of Sterling against the Euro is meaningless, isn’t it? The Euro has been hit harder.
Also, is there not room for changing their minds based on the utter mess we seem to be in? I’m talking in terms of rushing into breaking ties. The lies from the Leave campaign haven’t been revealed as lies as a result of what’s happened – they were just outright nonsense from the start.
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“So, he said it was ‘likely’ and gave his rationale. Is that a lie? No.”
I’m sorry, but I think it is indeed a lie, as it is not at all ‘likely’, and as clearly explained by the former Governor of The Bank of England in the video I linked to on the BBC’s site. A recession, should it come about as now seems likely, would suggest a move in the opposite direction, that is, downwards. Osborne’s statement is utterly disingenuous – he knew it then and he knows it now, just as the commentariat do also. He shot himself in the foot and will never now be PM as seemed a racing certainty before all this. Good news!
As to the changing of minds, Violet (may I call you that now?), then it’s not at all certain that Article 50 is ever going to get invoked. Cameron has handed that particular poison chalice to Johnson (or whoever the successor is), and now they’re staring at it trying not to breath in the fumes. A new government may stand elected on a manifesto which does not commit it to invoking Article 50 unless and until certain terms are met – one’s which will never will be. It could be rather like the pledge to abandon Sterling in favour of the Euro when Gordon Brown’s impossible conditions were met.
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Please don’t do the talking points thing. It’s both boring and misleading. If you’re going to defend the economics of Brexit, you need to lay out a scenario in which tens of thousands of jobs aren’t lost and more importantly how businesses can operate outside the common market whilst maintaining their current profit levels.
The “as I write” FTSE levels are childish, at best. As you write, teachers, doctors, nurses and pensioners may have already lost substantial amounts of their savings. George Soros isn’t the only investor in the world.
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So, you’re the moderator on this site, Pink? And you also get to set guidelines on what’s acceptable comment and what isn’t. Both you and Violet seem to think I’m defending all those who think differently to yourselves, just because I myself hold a different view to yours. Wrong. I’m just defending my position. What I copied of my comment on your site was a response to some of the lies of the Remain Campaign, which Violet asked me to do, and which are factual – you wisely did not dispute them on your site.
As to your demand that I “lay out a scenario in which tens of thousands of jobs aren’t lost and more importantly how businesses can operate outside the common market”, then I have already stated on your site that I believe a trade deal will get done – probably with Merkel’s intervention. The sky isn’t falling in – calm down. Article 50 may not get invoked. You should be more worried about social cohesion than your money and property values. 😛 Care to take me to task on the specifics, Pink?
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P.S. End of day trading figures:
FTSE 100 finished up 2.64% or 158.19 points at 6140.39
Germany’s Dax added 1.93% to 9447.28
France’s Cac closed 2.61% higher at 4088.85
Italy’s FTSE MIB rose 3.3% to 15601.62
Spain’s Ibex ended up 2.48% at 7835.0
In Greece, the Athens market added 3.72% to 538.65
On Wall Street, the Dow Jones Industrial Average is currently up 148 points or 0.87%.
As for the pound, it is now up 0.9% at $1.3342 after climbing as high as $1.3418. Against the euro it is 0.68% higher at €1.2075.
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P.S. On Soros not being the only investor in the world – why bring that up here, by the way? Here’s what the Hedge Funds are doing with Sterling:
https://t.co/tA92a1L56q
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Ah, that link takes you to an FT Paywall unless you click it through Gillian Tett’s blog – please ignore.
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@Madblog
My goodness, surely you should be all too familiar with rank ignorance,lap dogs, being lied to and swallowing false promises hook line and sinker and which you fully accept without so much as an, ”Excuse me, what’s a Yahweh?”
After all, you are an evangelical Christian and you have been metaphorically screwed for a large part of your life.
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Hi Madblog, I hope you’re enjoying the freedom of this blog, where you can express your views (differing as they are) without being censored, or banned.
It’s nice, isn’t it?
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For a reason to be substantive, it needs to be based in reality. For it to be an acknowledged reality, we need evidence. A campaign that says “Exit Europe or Risk Mass Rape” isn’t based on evidence:
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There is a perfectly coherent intellectual argument that rejects the EU as providing a legislative-friendly framework for pernicious Neoliberalism. I think it is an error to conflate the appallingly deceitful Leave Campaign – matched as it was by the mendacious Remain Campaign – with the mindset of all those who voted to do so.
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I’m not conflating anything. The majority of the people who voted Leave did so with no reference to anything other than the deceitful Leave campaign. Well, added to their own irrelevant prejudices such as those demonstrated on this post by the Christian and the misplaced food bank rager. If you’re one of the 1% Leave voters who voted so with reference to actual political realities, then please feel free to acknowledge you only swung it with deceit and hatred on your side.
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Whichever side had won, would have “swung it with deceit”, Violet. That was the nature of the beast. The bigotry, xenophobia and racism were piled high on the Leave Campaign, quite obviously.
“The majority of the people who voted Leave did so with no reference to anything other than the deceitful Leave campaign.” – a sweeping, unsubstantiated assertion. I can only guess, but I suspect that same majority had pre-existent and long-standing negative views as regards the EU.
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“Whichever side had won, would have “swung it with deceit”, Violet. That was the nature of the beast.”
Really, Hariod? Please explain how. Cameron’s tepid campaign ‘pledge’ was a mere belief that the UK is (what were his words?) stronger and safer in the EU.
“I can only guess” Yes Hariod, I’ve noticed. (Please note I’m over-using ‘Hariod’ to counter-act the seemingly patronising over-use of Violet – a classic, sigh)
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Why do I feel I’m on Roughseas here . . .
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Don’t worry, it’s all bluster. 😀
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And do feel free to answer my questions if indeed you have any facts to present.
But I do take your point (and Madblog’s) about the unpleasant nature of people living a certain kind of life squealing about the ignorant masses. I just don’t think it’s relevant here, when it’s clear that high profile, outright lies have heavily influenced the voting mood.
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For facts, such as they are in all this as we’re speculating about the future, then see my comment above in the other thread. And by the way, vox pop anecdotes (your links) cannot be extrapolated into facts about the polls’ supposed million others. If polls demonstrated facts then not only would the vote have gone the other way, but there would be no Tory majority government, and sadly, there is. Look what they did for us, gave us a referendum for which they had no Plan B in case people answered ‘wrongly’. And now they have, and it’s a mess.
I appreciate your acknowledgment on the other point.
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Well, a generous 5% margin of error accounts for wrongly forecast election results based on poll inaccuracies. Still around a million people wanting to change their vote.
“Look what they did for us, gave us a referendum for which they had no Plan B in case people answered ‘wrongly’. And now they have, and it’s a mess. ”
Agreed. In that respect, it’s all rather amusing. A shame people’s lives are getting messed up …
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This ‘million people’ argument can’t go anywhere. It’s going to have to be a fudge – see my comment above @ 1:39 pm.
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Make that 2:25 on the other thread; that is:
“A new government may stand elected on a manifesto which does not commit it to invoking Article 50 unless and until certain terms are met – one’s which will never will be. It could be rather like the pledge to abandon Sterling in favour of the Euro when Gordon Brown’s impossible conditions were met.”
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This Corbynista, “the EU is a right wing machine” for neoliberalism is nonsense. 9 out of 10 times EU policies lean to social justice. That’s certainly the case of the courts and to a degree even migrant policies. Remember when the EU tried to assign quotas? It was the Tory government who opposed the measure. The risk of neoliberalism is where it’s always been, in our actual right wing parties in our actual countries.
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I didn’t say the EU was ‘a Right Wing machine’, Pink – that would be patently absurd. The very genesis of the EU was about the market, and market efficiency. It was the market that the Remain Campaign played on throughout. It’s about doing business, and in a way that well suits the supra-national corporates. As I said on your own blog, the queen of Europe knows this, which is why she’s being emollient as regards Britain’s now awkward position. I agree with you on the Social Justice bit.
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P.S. Don’t get all ranty on me, I’ve got a headache! 😛
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I watched a few videos this morning and it seems the overriding factor is based on hate, simple as that. Fear of ”bloody foreigners” (heavy English accent).
It is difficult to imagine it is just a minority as well, considering how narrow the margins were.
One woman was asked how she felt about the tacit threat of deportation because she didn’t speak English!
I mean really! For F Sake!
Her response was classic.
The English invade half the world and what language do they speak? No, they expect everyone ELSE to speak English.
The response from a Polish chap almost made me bleed tears of anger.
He replied in less than the Queen’s English we fought with you. And the best Polish left our county and are living in the UK. You have them. Don’t think you can ever ask for Polish Airman again and don’t expect special treatment from the other 27 members.
I read it was claimed it had a lot to do with economics and job losses. Bollocks!
I grew up in the UK and in the seventies there were loads of strikes. The steel industry all but collapsed and unemployment was rampant.
Anyone remember The Full Monty?
Ah, British Leyland. Now there was a name to be proud to be British right?
And did anyone catch videos of the behaviour of some of the English fans toward certain Europeans after they heard the result? I lived alongside scum like this when I was a kid in the UK.
British nationals living in mainland Europe should consider themselves lucky they don’t start receiving similar treatment from other European nations.
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I saw all that on Channel 4 news yesterday. It was just appalling.
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I saw the first 4 minutes of Channel 4 last night and was delighted I was heading out a comedy club. That was grim stuff. I had to wonder if they’re laying it on just a bit too thick.
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I don’t know but French media is also showing daily clips of racist incidents involving UK football fans here. Chanting, humiliating Roma children, calling random Muslims terrorists. It’s not pretty.
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Yes, I have all sorts of conspiracy theories about them conveniently losing last night. Best for everyone if England is off the TV and their fans are safely back on their own shores.
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What era of Great Britain are they harking back to? I’m really not clear. When Britain was ruthlessly looting as many countries round the world as they could? When we were at war with our neighbours in Europe? Let’s put what ‘Great’ back into Britain? That kind of talk really needs to end.
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Exactly! They invade half the world, enslave and murder nationals, plunder resources, and call everyone a ‘Wog’.
I am surprised it took a referendum and why the UK wasn’t actually shown the door!
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Here in the US, the religious freedom contretemps is entirely vapor ware. The feeling of being put upon has been sewn together out of whole cloth for sociopolitical means and may have contaminated the U.K. electorate through the “news” media.
The hatred for the EU that I perceive (from here, of course) is fueled by immigration complexities but steeped in EU austerity economics. By favoring austerity during a major recession (when has that ever been the right thing to do?) they have favored the well-to-do over the poor and middle class once again after decades of similar political behaviour. I think the “have nots” have had enough.
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Indeed. And that would be relevant it we were voting to Leave from Greece or Portugal. We’re not. Most of the dramatic, immediate problems causing political discontent here in the UK today are a result of Tory policies, not EU policies. Again, the most relevant aspect of this vote is that a great many people were convinced to vote Leave based on demonstrated lies.
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Oh, the deliciousness of it, my co-elitist 😀 How does it feel to want to throw newspaper articles and books at people?
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Hey violet
Not that you would care or have any use for……..or that you would believe or like to look into……..
but God’s word has plenty to say about Europe, the confederacy of nations, revolt, egregious alliances, and the rise and fall of…………..oh nevermind.
But don’t ask for ‘WHERE??????????’ as it will be meaningless to you, and I’d rather not fuel your post here with opportunity for the scriptures to be trampled upon.
It is a worthy pursuit; after all, the God of history is never surprised by the activity of ants, bless those little fella’s. Just sayin.
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Good grief! Are you actually allowed out to play at this time? Have they upped your meds again?
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What do you think will happen next?
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He’s waiting for lion sex from behind. Did you miss the picture Ark posted?
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It is positively awesome how you hop onto a post, fail to make a point, and then blame people for not getting what isn’t there. Just sayin.
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It appears Clare understood the point……..but maybe you suffer from myopia as to not noticing the ‘outstanding pornographic points’ made and agreed upon by others.
But of course you excuse it, as it does not fit your template of godlessness.
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Aww, thanks for not making a liar out of me.
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Hi ColorStorm, thanks for popping by. I’m afraid I find that kind of interpretation of the Bible a bit embarrassing. It’s been going on for far too many centuries now – every ‘special’ generation seeing themselves in the vague Biblical rambles that can fit countless scenarios. As Jesus might say, “get over yourself”. 😀
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You are welcome, but it is only embarrassing to the fearful or untaught. Which are you?
It is rather interesting that today for instance, our generation is the first that can instantly ‘see’ something in real time across time zones………all accurately written thousands of years ago; certainly by people who would have had no use or no need to understand.
I’ll give you the benefit and put you in the category of untaught. It’s a safer place.
And yes, Europe is a player, and your ‘brexit’ is but a drop in the bucket.
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I think you missed Roughseas’s point, VW. Regardless of the lying that the Leave politicians did, or the racist and xenophobic sentiments that convinced some people to vote for them, some of the people that voted Leave had a reason to.
Unless I’m mistaken, the EU is an economic cooperative of nations formed for the benefit of all the member nations. The EU also has regulations governing labor, so there’s at least the nominal goal of the EU to help people out as well. People who can’t find a job with a livable wage can at least fault the EU for not doing right by them. In this regard, the argument is that the EU is not doing enough to further its goal.
There are data out there that support the notion that the immigration of unskilled labor depresses wages for unskilled labor. The EU regulates that, so people who have been affected negatively can rightfully blame the EU for a part of that.
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Thanks for your comment. I read through her post and comments again, and I’m not clear why you think I missed her point. Maybe you missed mine?
She claims, as you suggest above, that there were ‘good’ reasons to vote for leaving the EU. Her major gripe in the post is the increased use of food banks, which as I state in my post above (and link to sources) is a direct result of changes to the welfare system by politicians in the UK. Nothing even slightly to do with the EU. My point is that people who say the vote isn’t based on ignorance keep on saying ignorant things. Roughseas with her nonsense food banks complaint and faithinourfamilies who wants to be able to discriminate against homosexuals.
Roughseas claims it has nothing to do with racism, xenophobia or general distaste for immigrants, then goes on to say in the comments: “My birth town is virtually an Islamic Republic with a Sharia court. When a former colleague wrote about it, I thought he was totally rascist. I still think he is. But would I live there? Oh no. Would you? I doubt it.”
Immigration over the last few generations from Islamic countries has nothing to do with the EU. What possible relevance has this to the vote? It’s part of the muddle of my-country-has-changed-therefore-I’ll-vote-against-the-government-or-whatever-the-press-is-blaming-for-these-bloody-foreigners.
Can you find one decent reason in all her rambles there? Something with verifiable sources that indicates a directly negative impact of being part of Europe? You’re talking about a vote that has the potential to rip apart people’s lives, their families, their futures – ripping apart co-operative bonds that helped things like the peace process in Ireland, endangering livelihoods dependent on current trading conditions, removing the protections for workers and citizens generally. All for what? An angry leap into the unknown – wishful thinking that we can have all the trading benefits of being in Europe without any of the responsibility. Why do you think there is a power vacuum and politicians are all backing out of taking it on? Because it’s a disaster.
I don’t agree with anything you say about the EU above, I’m not sure if you truly know that much about it or British society, do you? For example, it’s difficult to drive down wages of unskilled workers when we have a minimum wage. And I’ve never heard anyone (not even anyone who voted to Leave) suggesting the the EU should be generating jobs for people. You’re imagining reasons there that don’t seem to be applicable and have never in any case been part of the discussion.
The only reasonable arguments I can think (and have heard from hardly any Leave voters) concern the harsh austerity measures imposed on some countries, which might have ridden the recession better with government investment in public services, or concerns about specific EU regulations that communities believe are harming things like fishing. But these are all debatable on an individual level. With regards to freedom of movement, there could be an argument that if one particular country is experiencing particularly high levels of population increase, they need time to plan for provision of housing, education and health to meet the needs of a rising population, but that surely needs to be debated within Europe first before the last resort of cutting ties.
I’m glad I still follow Roughseas though, it’s made for interesting reading. I don’t read the Daily Mail or anything like that, so it’s been shocking reading the number of people who agree with her post. Everyone in Scotland is devastated – I’ve yet to stumble across a Leave voter here in Edinburgh where 75% of the population voted to Remain (62% in Scotland generally and every single council area).
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Okay, I just want to reiterate that I don’t think the Leave vote was ultimately beneficial for the U.K. Just from the immigration side of things, the majority of the U.K. would not benefit from this. If they went hardcore against immigrants, you might expect things to look like what happened recently in Arizona.
As I understood Roughseas’s argument, it’s that the EU is supposed to benefit European workers in addition to member nations’ economies. If European workers are not benefiting from being in the EU, then that kind of defeats the purpose of remaining in it. For them, leaving would be fine because they’re not getting anything from it anyways.
Her specific examples were anecdotal. For example, if a person had a livable wage, he or she wouldn’t need to get food from a food bank (or benefits from the government for that matter). What that means is that your point about who directly is to blame for not having enough food is besides her point.
Her other point about people’s wages being depressed by immigrant labor is not inherently xenophobic. Unskilled labor in many countries is at the mercy of immigrant labor that can come in and do the job cheaper. This is just as true in the U.K. as it is in the States. Furthermore, in areas where immigrant labor isn’t around, unskilled labor has higher wages (about 1% if memory serves; it’s not much). Still, it’s enough that someone who doesn’t have an education can sensibly say that they can’t afford to compete with that kind of labor.
To use an analogy, the vote was like voting to get rid of a fire department that was able to put out 96% of fires. The 4% of the population that watched their houses burn down reasonably wouldn’t care much for the department, and that also doesn’t justify the majority voting to Leave.
I think she’s just talking about individuals here, and not the grand scheme of things.
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