jesus wants a selfish society
Over at Apologetics and Agape, there’s a fantastic video about how socialism teaches people to be selfish. The video suggests that if humans are given health, educational or financial support beyond the age of 21 (by either parents or society at large) we will selfishly believe we are entitled to support, and won’t work for ourselves.
To accept the narrative in the video you have to believe the worst about your fellow humans. You have to believe that people don’t have a natural desire to work, to be productive or to contribute to society. You have to believe that people on welfare are there because they are too selfish, lazy or stupid to do anything about their situation. You have to happily ignore the role of factors like poor education and discrimination in keeping people on the bottom rung of the ladder, in poverty, and patronisingly tell them it’s the meagre support they get from their government that is their only barrier to joining mainstream working society.
You have to ignore the evidence that turns the whole premise on its head, in that the countries with the most generous welfare systems have populations who want to work:
Europeans are more likely to want to work when their country’s welfare benefits system is more generous, according to a study.
The survey, which canvassed opinion from 19,000 people across 18 European countries, found a correlation between generous benefits and willingness to work even if the money wasn’t needed, and casts doubt on the notion that big welfare states are associated with widespread cultures of dependency and lack of incentive to work. (Newsweek)
But the thing that interests me most about this video is that it’s distributed by a Christian. Why would that be of any interest? Because Christians in the USA campaign without the slightest sense of irony for support for the poorest members of their own society to ripped away by their government. They campaign for Christians to earn as much money as they can in a capitalist society and then by individual deeds care for poorer members of society, but not allow a co-operative society to plan for provision of things like equal and free access to healthcare or equal and free access to education.
Where do we see these capitalist Christians living according to the words ascribed to their god, the character Jesus?
Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. (Mark 10:21)
In this passage, Jesus is telling his followers to be selfish, to look to the bigger win. Because who would give money to the poor without hope of a reward? Who wants to pay tax dollars to a large system that can aim to equally distribute wealth and support to the poorest members of society, when you can pick and choose your favourite poor people to support?
Where do we see these capitalist Christians living according to the example of the earliest Christian communities, those who followed the example of the character Jesus most closely?
All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had. With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need. (Acts 4:32-35)
In these passages, we see the ultimate selfishness of the early Christians. By giving away all their possessions as Jesus commanded, they were creating a culture of dependency among the poor people of their communities. These poor people weren’t grateful for what they were given, but with the mind of every selfish welfare-dependent human in existence, they thought they were entitled to support and lost all drive to earn money for themselves.
Shame on selfish Jesus and shame on those selfish apostles!
Another problem is that Christians have this expectation that they don’t have any obligation to the currently living 7.3 Billion people on this planet. They sort of expect every country to be an American-esque utopia where there’s plenty of jobs, great houses, food in every fridge and cars in every garage. They don’t see how the laogai / sweat shop system that gets them their beloved clothing brands come at the very real cost of wage slavery. That shrimp in wal-mart and costco? The result of shanghai-ing people onto boats and keeping them prisoner at sea. There’s a very real blindness to the dark side of capitalism that too many Christians just chose to be utterly unaware about or ignore the implications of it. Capitalism seems to be far more selfish especially when it’s at the cost of people.
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“Another problem is that Christians have this expectation that they don’t have any obligation to the currently living 7.3 Billion people on this planet.”
I worry about all of us in this regard. After the recent publication of the Chilcot Inquiry into the Iraq war, there was so much talk about the 179 British soldiers who died. I don’t deny each one was a tragedy, but it’s difficult to mourn excessively over one group of people who chose a job of violence, while completely disregarding the deaths hundreds of thousands of Iraqis.
But, yes, I get your point that Christianity demands more of its followers in terms of concern for fellow human beings, and yet they seem to care a lot less that anyone else.
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You’re on a roll.
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John,
Because Jesus ascended to heaven, does that mean we don’t need airplanes, jets and rockets?
You mean, because of Jesus, we can just wish ourselves into the clear, blue sky anytime we want to take a long trip?
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John? My name isn’t John.
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Come on Sebastian, it can be!
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Is that a Brideshead reference? 😛
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No, but it can be if you like, Carl
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Mr. Merveilleux,
I beg your pardon!
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And are you on a sandwich?
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Just overwhelmed these days.
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With?
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my mind.
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It is bizarre, is it not, that almost every Evangelical we encounter here in the digital-world promote the exact opposite of what Jesus commanded, and which was laid out in Acts.
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John,
Because Jesus ascended to heaven, does that mean we don’t need airplanes, jets and rockets?
You mean, because of Jesus, we can just wish ourselves into the clear, blue sky anytime we want to take a long trip?
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Why do you make Jesus cry, SOM??? Sow not, SOM… Sow not.
Matthew 6:34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.
Matthew 19:21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
Luke 14:33 In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples.
Matthew 6:26 “Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?”
Luke 18:22 When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
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John,
How in hell do you know if Jesus is crying or not?
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“It is bizarre, is it not, that almost every Evangelical we encounter here in the digital-world promote the exact opposite of what Jesus commanded, and which was laid out in Acts.”
It’s astounding! I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s a large-scale psychological experiment into the effects of religious control, that’s got out of hand – how much power do ministers have to tell people to believe the exact opposite of their holy books? Who’d have thought they could go quite this far?
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Pingback: jesus wants a selfish society — violetwisp – wordupdate
I often wonder how right wing evangelicals can even call themselves Christian.
In this part of the world, Christians have always been behind, and indeed, have been pushing for social reforms that would give the typical American evangelical a heart attack: socialised health services, universal superannuation, benefits for solo parents, and horror of horrors, even our universal no faults accident compensation scheme (ACC). To them ACC is socialism on steriods as we gave up the right to sue in cases of injury. Yet this is something we willing gave up to ensure no one is severely disadvantaged through no fault of their own. Using the evangelicals’ argument, Aotearoa New Zealand would be awash with lazy careless slobs who could barely lift a finger to help themselves. Yet Kiwis have a reputation of being ethical, hard working individuals with a flare of thinking outside the box. What living in a relatively safe and secure environment does is allows the individual to put more resources into realising their full potential.
Perhaps it’s the evangelicals’ view of original sin and mankind’s evil nature that causes them to think the worst of their fellow beings. Those who are willing to take unfair advantage of others are relatively few and far between. Isn’t one of them running for the highest post in the US with the support of those evangelicals?
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Barry,
“Evangelical” is a term used by leftist bigots.
It’s a cliché, an urban legend told to the gullible by the Ruling Class so that the gullible will have a villain to fear.
So called “evangelicals” are a group that is so diverse in color and creed as to beggar the imagination.
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Yes, I believe you once called them (Evangelicals) “an incoherent mess”
I agree.
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John,
Finally!
Some who not only listens to me, but remembers what I say!
I thought I was the only person who did that.
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What can I say, that gem stuck with me.
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See http://www.newsmax.com/FastFeatures/evangelical-christians-beliefs/2015/04/02/id/636050/ for a definition that is close to what I had in mind. I did make it clear that I was referring to the right wing element of that grouping, which seems to be most evangelicals in the US.
SOM, by your comment, I wonder who is really bigotted? “leftist bigots”, “the gullible”, “the Ruling Class”, “a villain to fear”. You live in a world that I’m very grateful I don’t. And I’m not referring to the real world, but the one that exists inside your head. The real world is much kinder.
In this country, evangelicals are either to be pitied or laughed at, as the circumstances demand, but to fear? You’ve got to be kidding!
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Barry,
You are the one who used the term, “evangelical,” to label a very diverse group of people as retrograde.
The world is not kind. The world is cruel and unforgiving.
The disconnect between the pampered, disconnected Ruling Class and the common man harkens back to the beginning of the 20th century just before World War I.
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“their unique beliefs and interpretations of Christianity make them a distinct worldwide movement, emphasizing the “born again” experience, the infallibility of the Bible, salvation by faith in Jesus alone, the need to evangelize or spread their message, and the rapture of the church in the end times“. Regardless of how diverse they are, they are still an identifiable and easily recognised group. It’s those identifiable characteristics, that cause the movement to be seen in such poor light by most Kiwis.
Christianity gets a high approval rating by NZer (along with Judaism, Hinduism and atheism, with Islam trailing a little bit behind), But ask about specific movements such as evangelicalism or fundamentalism, you find the approval rating plummets and the disapproval rating soars.
You can shout that it’s all a conspiracy by the ruling classes for all you’re worth, but I seriously doubt many Kiwis will believe you.
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People don’t have a natural desire to work.
Proof of this is the age old institution of slavery which was ingrained into every human culture from the very beginning.
And in the free market economy, the way to riches is having your money and other people, work for you, instead of you working yourself.
Ironically, the work ethic in the modern West, comes from the Puritans, who were Christians.
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You’re right SOM, people don’t have a natural desire to work (especially so that others can benefit). What they do want is to be gainfully employed. Here I’m referring to “employed” in its wider sense. Perhaps “occupied” would be a suitable alternative.
Have you never heard a child complain that they are bored? Doing nothing seems to me to be one of the most depressing ways of passing time.
In a society where one could live without working if one so desired, very few Kiwis do. Ask anyone who is unemployed and on a benefit what they want most, you’ll find that they are desperate for a job. And it’s not just because of the money, as a person with a large family and unemployed is likely to be better off financially than being on the minimum wage. Most will say they have a better sense of self worth when they feel they are making a contribution to society.
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Barry,
Being “gainfully employed” is a modern, Western notion that comes courtesy of the Industrial Revolution.
From time immemorial and for almost everyone, just getting enough to eat and making it to tomorrow alive was the order of the day.
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Well Violet, I am one of those poorer Americans and I assure you,our welfare policies and government interventions do keep people trapped in poverty. Take Obamacare for example, my share of my insurance premiums now exceed my income. So not only do I have to forgo insurance for the first time ever, I have to pay a fine for not being able to afford it.
I have a friend, single mom, very talented. She really wants to work a bit, but she can’t. Every dime she earns is deducted from her rent, her food stamps, lowers her earned income credit refund, and threatens her medical insurance. She literally cannot afford to work.
I don’t know what the heck goes on in Europe, but I can tell you in the US, socialism sucks. I find it somewhat appalling that you not only try to slam Jesus Christ Himself, but you also try to mock and ridicule the voices of Americans who have actually been trapped in this nightmare created by someone elses utopian vision of socialism.
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IB, what you have in America isn’t socialism. It’s capitalism masquerading as socialism. Obamacare is the government compelling you to make payments to a profit making business or face a hefty fine. What is socialistic about that? I can say much the same about food stamps. It’s the government deciding what I should eat. That is not socialism. Socialism is not the government telling us what we should or shouldn’t do. That’s authoritarianism.
Aotearoa New Zealand has had a publicly funded welfare system for over a hundred years. I pay no health insurance, pay around 19% income tax, yet pay nothing for my many hospital stays and no more than $5.00 for prescribed medicine. If I have an injury, regardless of the cause, the costs of treatment and rehabilitation are covered, along with any modification to my home or car if the injuries are permanent. All this for the occasional inconvenience of watching an advertisement on TV advising not to drink and drive, or to think safety in the work place. In my mind, a very small price to pay.
Kiwis give more time to voluntary service than many similar countries, so it’s not like a welfare system makes one selfish. In this country, Christian groups are firmly behind our welfare system. They, along with anyone who believes in social justice are the first to express opposition at any hint of dismantling parts of it.
To us, both Christian and non Christian, the attitude that many American Christians have towards social welfare, is contrary to the teaching of Jesus and contrary to common sense.
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“Socialism is not the government telling us what we should or shouldn’t do. That’s authoritarianism.”
I don’t think so, Barry. It’s socialism and with it comes the usual totalitarianism, that is well documented all through history in every other socialist nation.
Our social welfare programs have absolutely nothing to do with the welfare of people, so continually harping about how Christians in the US need to get behind “socialism” is actually a misnomer and rather harmful. We are actually struggling against a government that is attempting to seize control and relieve people of their freedom and ability to provide for themselves. “Social justice” has nothing to do with the welfare of our people, either.
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IB, compared to the United States, Aotearoa New Zealand is a very socialist nation, yet we enjoy a greater level of freedom, and that includes freedom from government regulation and control.
Not convinced? I could point you here or here or here. In fact it’s very difficult to find any comparison of freedoms where the US is ranked as high or higher than many so called socialist states.
“Our social welfare programs have absolutely nothing to do with the welfare of people“. Then whatever it is, it’s not social and it’s not welfare.
Last, but not least: if social justice has nothing to do with the welfare of people, what may I ask is social justice?
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Maybe we should ask the American Christians to enlighten us on their understanding of social justice and welfare.
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It involves telling everyone that their god gave them talents to work hard and be successful. And if they don’t, it’s because they’re …. sinning?
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Now I see why I have trouble understanding Americanese
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“I don’t know what the heck goes on in Europe, but I can tell you in the US, socialism sucks.”
I think this might be the root of the problem when it comes to our discussions about things like universal healthcare or a decent welfare security net. You’ve never experienced either.
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Violet I am laughing while shaking head reading your post as it encapsulates every strawman the left has been trying to hang on free marketers since, well probably since Jesus walked the earth. Funny thing about structures built of straw, they tend to collapse when the slightest bit of pressure is applied.
Capitalism is neither good nor bad and , just a form of distributing goods and services which those of us that champion it believe leads to the best and most efficient way to provide for all societal classes, while leaving individual freedom intact and enhancing personal responsibility.
I am against socialism because I believe the massive market distortions it creates leads to vast inefficiencies which hurt the poor most and cause power to concentrate among the most politically connected. I also believe human beings thrive best when they are left to their own devices as much as possible to develop their God given talents which end up benefiting society through better products and services and by increasing the economic pie.
I also abhor the loss of personal drive and sense of personhood government dependency creates and believe the moral road would be to lead away from this this, not towards.
Of course you can disagree with this but do you really think my or anyone else’s disdain for socialism is because we don’t like poor people ? I don’t think you really do but your post does boggle the mind a bit.
I wonder if civilization will ever get to a point where we can dislike another’s political point of view without attributing evil intent? That to me would be truly progressive.
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“Capitalism is neither good nor bad and , just a form of distributing goods and services”
What are the practicalities of that? Can everyone have a reasonable standard of living, or does it require some people to live on below minimum wage or indeed virtual slaves? Is it acceptable to live in society where your fellow citizens can’t make ends meet? Is every child born into an environment that gives them a skill set to do this as an adult? I don’t agree that life is so simple. The society I live in is much more complex, and I don’t think that by leaving charitable acts up the discretion of individuals we can give a sensible fail-safe for people whose lives simply fall apart, or who never had a decent chance in the first place.
My points here are wildly sarcastic, because the coldness of American Christians horrifies me, the lack of concern for other humans beings is simply inhumane. Did you read the link I provided about Norway, about what a decent welfare system does for society? No, because you already ‘know’ you don’t agree. Did you read and digest Barry’s comments about New Zealand? No, because you already ‘know’ you disagree.
“I wonder if civilization will ever get to a point where we can dislike another’s political point of view without attributing evil intent?”
I don’t think you have evil intent, I think you’ve genuinely fallen for the stories you hear in your circles. I’m trying to open your eyes. 🙂
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I like commenting here, and had various thoughts about what I might say, but what Barry has written is completely bloody brilliant, and I have nothing to add.
However-
it always appears to me that my morality can be addressed to me and no-one else. When it is addressed to me, it can have some value in producing right action. When I attempt to use it to correct another, it only causes disruption and misery.
That seems related to the discussion here, but I am unsure how.
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Agreed about Barry. If he can’t get through to them with his calm reasoning and clear facts, I can see the road is long.
I’d be interested to see some examples on your morality ponder.
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There used to be a lively Christian left in America but it is nearly extinct for the same reasons the Christian right is going to go extinct. If being a good Christian meant being in favor of universal healthcare, eventually people realized there was no reason to be Christian. Conversely, if being a good Christian means wanting the government off your back, there is no reason to be Christian.
The truth is what kind of social system you prefer is a judgment call that might be influenced by faith but not determined by it. There is no one-size-fits-all perfect solution. My observation is that government in the U.S. is generally self-serving and corrupt, so I prefer a minimalist approach. But (gasp!) I may be wrong and I don’t pretend that my opinions reflect God’s own truth.
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“The truth is what kind of social system you prefer is a judgment call that might be influenced by faith but not determined by it.”
I think only the Christian right can claim that, in their cognitive dissonance. The Christian left know they are living according to the words and deeds reported by both Jesus and his closest followers.
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Words like My kingdom is not of this wotld?
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Unless that was in the context of letting fellow human beings suffer while you make as much money as you can, because the kingdom of your god is not of this world, then that would be relevant. But it isn’t.
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No one you are arguing with believes that he should be making as much money as he can while others suffer. The discussion is about means not ends.
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He never said to love money at all. He said to give it all away and be poor. It’s a direct contradiction to the message in the video above, which is the view supported by most US Christians. Not here, note.
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You are trying to get Jesus Christ to endorse your pet political programs, cut it out.
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Well if you can give me an indication where he role models or approves of making money, and where he disapproves of helping poor people (in case they get used to it), I’ll understand where you’re coming from. Until then, any support you have of the video above is a clear mockery of the Jesus depicted in the Bible.
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Didn’t see the video so I’m not endorsing it.
I don’t see how Jesus can tell people to give away their money if they don’t make any. He had a trade before undertaking his ministry and was presumably paid for it.
Jesus never instructs his followers to set up a welfare state and probably had no concept of such a thing. He does not seem to have been interested in politics in any conventional sense.
It is out of place to assume that Jesus would support this or that political program. In fact his attitude to politics in the NT is quite dismissive.
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“I don’t see how Jesus can tell people to give away their money if they don’t make any.”
Em, they change their ways and follow him. Do you know the story at all??
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He had a group that followed him around and a larger network of disciples that didn’t, who had homes and (I presume) incomes.
For you:
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For you:
” All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had. With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need.”
A progressively socialist society in action.
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Quite possible on a micro scale. That is how families live. Religious orders still do it.
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Oh I see, it wasn’t supposed to be a model for most Christians! Just families and religious orders. Interesting how you get it to function in your world view. 🙂
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A practical model for everybody? No, of course not. The NT doesn’t tell everyone to live that way and plenty of NT figures live ordinary lives with ordinary jobs.
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Would you say most of them do? Is that what characterised the early church? Nope. Are you supposed to be more like Jesus? Yes. Did he have any possessions? No. Joseph of Arimathea for example wasn’t an ‘out’ follower of Jesus, so you can’t use him as an example of someone who was living the new Christian dream.
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Jesus was celibate too, but not all Christians are expected to follow that model. Rather they are expected to live the virtue of chastity according to their state in life.
I wasn’t thinking of the secret disciples but of the ordinary believers he ran across every day, like Martha and Mary, Zaccheus the tax collector, the town of Samaritans in John, Jairus and his family… all sorts of people who believe in Jesus but don’t follow him town to town. In the rest of the NT Paul has a trade and practices it, his disciples do the same. Even in Acts.
I think your confusion comes from 1) a desire to troll me 2) the fact that the Gospels are written from the point of view of Jesus’ core disciples who closely modeled his lifestyle so we tend to forget that they were not his only disciples.
This happens a lot when people read parts of Matthew that are essentially about church discipline and think the part on fraternal correction is directed to them, and they should get witnesses for private disagreements and shun family members. It isn’t, it is about how early presbyters and episcopoi were supposed to handle things like heresy and scandal.
So rather than google verses like a fundamentalist or atheist I suggest reading the NT with a more holistic sense.
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DP, I think the message is quite clear:
Matthew 6:34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.
Matthew 19:21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
Luke 14:33 In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples.
Matthew 6:26 “Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?”
Luke 18:22 When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
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So Jesus invites specific people to give away all their possessions but makes a general recommendation to be detached from material goods.
Unlike you I don’t google bible quotes I read a book at a time and hence understand context.
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Ah, context.
I see….
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I know you folks on the spectrum have a hard time with that.
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Yes, I’m sure you’re right…
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Nice concept
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But Jesus loves you
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Apologies, you went to Spam. Although I’m not sure what your comment means.
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I haven’t read through all the comments, my apologies. My take, Christianity has been “hi-jacked” by people who wanted to use it for their own agendas, it can be seen with the split of the church around 1054AD, although the “power struggle started 400 years earlier. Go through the history.
I distanced myself from the faith for quite a few years due to the contradiction between scripture and what the people (leaders) do and advocate. About 14 months ago I returned to the faith. I searched for my own answers. I searched for material from 300AD or as close as I could get to the period of Jesus being on earth. First I found the ancient Eastern Orthodox Christian Writings (Byzantine) and the desert Fathers, and their saints. There’s a wealth of very good material which have been discarded by the west.
I’m not sure capitalism as it is currently practiced is according to scripture. Society, even many denominations / churches had also fallen in a materialism trap …… I don’t support any pastor / preacher / minister who preach “riches” and fly jets…. There is a biblical law of “what you sow shall you reap”, tithing, etc. More importantly…… we have to attend to “the flock, the sick and weak. It’s a theme throughout scripture to look after the weak, the orphaned, the sick ….. It doesn’t mean you have to be poor, but it surely doesn’t mean you can fly around in private Jets as well. The western church in medieval times also used money to gain riches. People could buy themselves into heaven. The more gave to the church, the more sins were forgiven to ensure their place in heaven.
I also believe that’s the reason why Jesus told the man to sell His earthly posessions … cause he knew the hold material possessions have …. we make it another “god”, one more important than Him. We trust more on our bank accounts, than Him. That’s the point He wanted to make.
I want to refer to Ez 34:3-10
“Ye eat the fat, and ye clothe you with the wool, ye kill them that are fed: but ye feed not the flock. The diseased have ye not strengthened, neither have ye healed that which was sick, neither have ye bound up that which was broken, neither have ye brought again that which was driven away, neither have ye sought that which was lost; but with force and with cruelty have ye ruled them. And they were scattered, because there is no shepherd: and they became meat to all the beasts of the field, when they were scattered. My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill: yea, my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek after them. Therefore, ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD; As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely because my flock became a prey, and my flock became meat to every beast of the field, because there was no shepherd, neither did my shepherds search for my flock, but the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not my flock; Therefore, O ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD; Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.” (you can read the complete chapter) … Thanks for sharing.
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I want to add….. Paul was clear that everybody should work. 2 Thes 3:10 “For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.”
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If there is a system to be abused then there will be those who abuse it. I like the idea of people (the church even) using its funding to help those who are in need instead of the government doing it, however, that has been tried in various ways and proven that alot of people just don’t like to share. Personally, I sleep better at night knowing that those hungry and poor are being helped by my tax dollars alone and some of those people actually get up in the morning, search for a job, get one and earn their pay. It is unbelievable to me that so called christians dont think the poor should be helped. What type christianity are they smoking anyways? Also, I think I should mention- I’m pretty sure Jesus would have helped any dying patient and not asked to check their insurance first.
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Merry Christmas to you Violet and your homies:
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I think maybe I can help explain Christian culture a bit. Jesus advocated for the poor, needy, widows. He did not say “how” other than demonstrating personal, direct, and relational serving and giving. Maybe that’s why some parts of His Church bristle at socialism; it is not a person to petson relationship. It feels very impersonal to write a check to a faceless bureaucracy. Also, bureaucracy often has to legitimize its own existence, and will squander resource for its political gain. Not public gain. Any help?
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Thanks for your comment. So you think a handful of Christians choosing to give help they personally judge to be appropriate, and when it suits them, is what makes a supportive society? The truth is that everyone is busy trying to get by with their own lives. Setting up overarching systems of support that we all contribute to, that are there to help us if the worst happens, seems to be the most sensible way to structure our societies. Unless you can show me another model that works? Is there any country that actually takes care of all the vulnerable people in society through simple good works of other citizens?
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Jesus Christ did not come to earth to make a supportive society..He came to save His people from their sins like the angel told Joseph.
Everything his church is and does is for that purpose to His glory. Including helping the poor as His godly wisdom would dictate.
That said, apostate, world loving American Christendom spends far more time and money on the pagan culture’s entertainment than it does helping anybody. Including those in their own church.
Secular socialism is an abomination. Voluntary socialism as seen in the book of the acts of the apostles is practically a command. Half the biblically illiterate Christians over here have them both wrong.
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I guess I agree with much of what you said. The keywords to me in your response are”voluntary socialism”. Could we also insert the words “community”, “small group”, or “church”?
Nothing feels better to the poor than to have someone care. They can tell the difference between that and people who are paid to care.
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“Nothing feels better to the poor than to have someone care. They can tell the difference between that and people who are paid to care.”
When we rely on the charity of individuals we are at the mercy of their whims and personal circumstance. When everyone contributes to a pot of resource to help people in hard times, we give people the dignity of joint ownership, group responsibility and the knowledge that society as a whole is the community that supports them. Most of the time people who are paid to care, are people who care and make a living out of their skill. I think it’s kind of insulting to suggest otherwise.
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I think any human relating to the poor is better than a faceless bureaucracy without love or empathy.
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It’s a bit odd to consider someone who works for the government as ‘faceless’. I live in a country with tax-funded healthcare – the nurses, doctors and healthcare visitors that deal with us are not ‘faceless bureaucracy’ but loving, caring individuals doing a job that helps other. A job that is appropriately, not randomly, funded, bringing both them and patients security. The same goes for other branches of government support – people with job security doing jobs they care about.
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Maybe your state or nation is more functional than mine.
I lived in Sweden fir a summer. Their social net is VERY generous. But as time wore on this is what I noticed; Swedes did not know how to give of themselves. They could walk around a tragic situation w/ no mercy because “the state will take care of them”. No relationship, no personal risk or investment of they heart to help another human.
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It depends how you choose to view it – your see a faceless state, I see mechanism designed to provide support. Do you wander into poor neighbourhoods in your community and invest your heart in helping other humans?
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Yes. I helped found Source. A 22yr program for homeless youth.Im not srguing w/you. Judt trying to point out direct help helps.
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That’s cool, but do you think individual and small group works can provide as comprehensive a net as a co-funding co-operative society model? Of course not. I know nothing about your organisation, but also there’s the concern that ‘well-meaning’ acts of individual charity don’t deal with the bigger picture, root causes and sometimes come with strings attached.
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Not yet, but I think the goal is worthy!
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