why men know more about childbirth than women
whether or not babies are horrible monsters that for some strange reason decide to take over a woman’s body only to come bursting out like the monsters in the Alien movies […] It makes no sense to me why someone would choose to see normal animal existence as “essentially a horror story”. I suppose I should feel repulsed by or sorry for these people but I basically just draw a blank. (dpmonahan)
Dpmonahan draws a blank when it comes to understanding people like me. It must be difficult for men like him, trying patiently to explain to women like me what pregnancy and childbirth are like, to receive little praise for his greater level of knowledge and understanding.
What squirrel-killer dpmonahan doesn’t understand about normal animal existence, is that humans have evolved (somewhat) beyond the basics. We have taken our over-powering sexual desires that have made us a breeding success, and applied what birth control measures we have discovered to ensure that our offspring have better chances of living higher quality lives. Read the WHO factsheet for more information on the benefits of family planning.
Human babies develop as dependent parasites within their host mothers. Their growth squashes internal organs, stretches and breaks core muscles, saps nutrients from the host mother’s body (including calcium from our bones), until such a time as they are ready to be independent, yet too big to exit easily from the host body. At this point, pain beyond your wildest imagination is inflicted on the host mother’s body, until either the baby squeezes out, is cut out, or one or both die. This isn’t an exaggerated horror depiction – this is fact. If dpmonahan can point to any inaccuracy in the description, I’ll be delighted to hear him out.
As part of this horror story for many women, are chemicals of sheer delight, which obviously help in allowing us to perpetuate this cycle of existence. But the existence of these chemicals for most women, and the excitement at the thought of having a little mini-human to care for at the end of it all, isn’t a universal experience.
But for dpmonahan, because it’s a natural part of life and because billions of women have done it either by accident or on purpose, childbirth and pregnancy are clearly a happy walk in the park! They’re not. Have a look at the some of the stories in the Birth Trauma Association, if you dare. Even ask someone who has had a trouble-free pregnancy and relatively easy birth – it’s bloody, sheer agony that destroys your body (I cannot express this strongly enough, yet men never seem to comprehend it, because it just … happens), and it’s only a ‘happy story’ because thankfully most people now live through it and most people you speak to about it wanted and adore their children.
So why does dpmonahan understand more about childbirth than women? Because he’s a man of course. And men know more about everything, simply because they often imagine they do, and no-one bothers to correct them. Consider yourself corrected.
Sounds like he’s mansplaining.
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Religiously mansplaining how an atheist should view life.
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As an academic exericise in simple curiosity, I wonder, if the day ever comes that men can successfully grow babies, will there be pushback from women denouncing the technology.
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Naturally, because it will all be a mess. 🙂
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True. Men crying is a horrible sight.
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Sez you
‘I wonder, if the day ever comes that men can successfully grow babies………..’
Key word there ‘successfully.’ Uh, no. That would be more correctly called a bastard, a monster, an aberration. Yeah, don’t forget the breastfeeding.
The whole idea of males and females being totally different must escape you. Here’s a clue: male and female created He them.
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Being anally retentive comes naturally to you, doesn’t it, John….
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Ah but jz, your ‘simple curiosity’ was met with simple truth, technology notwithstanding.
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Ever heard of incubators, John?
I’m guessing, no.
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Silly me I’m sure. Always thought the ‘first’ babies grew along side the pumpkins just waiting to be plucked by the gardener……as they lied in wait next to the beans as they ‘decided’ how to make themselves………cows…….to provide milk that they never knew for babies they have never seen…….after all…….what is eyesight to they who have no clue as to vision…….
Yep, cows came from beans. So there is your absurdity in a nutshell, but that incubator could be handy when needed.
(sorry violet for the detour)
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Welcome to black pits of despair: biological existence is awful, and mammals are especially wretched what with their masticating and viviparting. Logically the only bearable life-form is the fungus which reproduces through sporing and only eats things which are already long dead. I guess the sweet meteor of death can’t come fast enough to wipe out this awful cosmic accident we call life.
I would feel sorry for you except I can’t bring myself to think anyone could really believe what you say you believe. Your brand of atheism, logically, is death worship. I think this is just rhetoric.
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What’s this got to do with atheism? We’re talking about the facts of pregnancy and childbirth. You want to paint a pretty religious picture of sweet godly giggles and smiles all over it. Children are wonderful if we’re lucky enough to have them when we want them, and the cycle of life is awesome to consider, but none of that changes the nature of the human reproduction system. Once again, if you find anything to be factually incorrect, don’t hesitate to say. Other than that, all I’m hearing is that you don’t like the way I say things, therefore your god exists.
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It ought not have anything to do with atheism, that is the curious thing. An atheist should not ascribe any value to material realities. Yet here you are describing reproduction as if it were evil.
When I hear people talk like this I wonder if the inability to encounter the world as a good place is what drives atheism. If you can’t believe in the goodness of the world you can’t believe in god.
You leave out that pregnancy is less dangerous than driving a car and also benefits the mother’s immune system, but never mind, the problem is one of perspective, not facts.
I take nature as a given, and I presume its goodness, because that is the fundamental human experience of it. That is just how we encounter it when we are immersed in it. Encountering it that way allows one to believe in God or something… someone who can describe the world as you do, can’t.
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“An atheist should not ascribe any value to material realities.”
Em, we don’t have a rulebook, remember? A Christian shouldn’t judge and a Christian shouldn’t pretend they know what their invisible god wants – that’s in your rulebook, and yet here you are …
“Yet here you are describing reproduction as if it were evil.”
No I’m not. This whole thing is flying well over your head, clearly. Reproduction is brutal and traumatic. It’s marvellous when it works out, in spite of that. You’ve failed to point what part of my description is inaccurate, if you have such a problem with it, please tell me where.
“I take nature as a given, and I presume its goodness, because that is the fundamental human experience of it.”
This is your problem. Because of your religious beliefs, you have to couch your interpretation of life in ‘goodness’, so you can’t face stark facts about things like pregnancy, childbirth or abortion. I’ve seen it before in Christians, like they have a weave a fantasy over reality in order to accept it – you are scared of the truth. And the truth without the religious coating isn’t ugly or evil or frightening. It’s life – and it’s wonderful, weird, amazing, and can even be traumatic within that.
Did you read Clare’s comment?
“Denying the horror of life does not mitigate it. Admitting the horror of life does not diminish the beauty of life. Facing reality is difficult but necessary and invigorating.”
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When I say what you “should” do, I am taking your point of departure and applying the rules of logic.
What is false about your fetus-as-alien-parasite-horror-movie is that we normal sane folks distinguish between a parasite and offspring because one is not supposed to be inside a healthy animal and the other is. The former is a sign of illness for the host, the latter is a sign of health, that the organism is functioning.
When you call a fetus a parasite you are not basing yourself on ‘stark facts’ and ‘real life’, you are rather reducing something healthy and normal and good to a disease. You equate the normal and natural to an illness then you congratulate yourself for not ‘sugarcoating’ life?
So you either really consider the normal, natural and healthy to be a disease, in which case you hate existence, or you are just being histrionic to win an argument.
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Once again, have you been pregnant? Do you even have an inkling about what it feels like? I’m not sure how else I can explain it. Did you notice that no women who have been pregnant have popped over here to challenge the description? It’s accurate. We have happy chemicals, and yes, it’s a normal part of healthy reproduction, because most of us want to reproduce and we have no other way of doing it yet. But it’s less than ideal, given that it’s essentially a traumatic horror story. The reason I’m making the point is that this is the reason why someone like me, who wanted children, who has had children, is double disgusted by the anti-abortion movement. I know the horror, and I know I coped with it because it was a choice, because I was happy, because I could see it through to the desired result. Removing access to safe and legal abortion facilities is inhumane; attempting to force women who don’t want to be pregnant to give birth, is inhumane.
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Wait, I thought feelings were not a basis of moral judgement. Stop moving the goalposts. You are trying to turn abortion into a special category of moral act immune from all analysis.
Pregnancy is less than ideal? To what are you possibly comparing it? These are the bodies and natures we have, it makes no sense to do anything but cherish them. You deny it but I do think you give a negative value to ordinary biological existence. You would rather be a disembodied intelligence, or at least a fungus.
As for inhumane, you would not treat a puppy the way you think its A-OK to treat a human fetus.
My opinions on the legality of abortion have been clearly stated elsewhere. I’m focused on the moral question not the political one.
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“Pregnancy is less than ideal? To what are you possibly comparing it? These are the bodies and natures we have, it makes no sense to do anything but cherish them. ”
Don’t be ridiculous. Do you cherish death? Do you cherish cancer? Do you constipation? Lots of things about being human are less than ideal, because we are not designed. We evolved. We analyse every natural thing that happens to us, and look for ways to improve our experience. Of course men like you (and some women like you) are happy to wind back the clock to the days when women who were fertile and little other option than spend all their adolescent and adult lives giving birth till they died giving birth. Many of the rest of the human population recognises that this ‘natural’ state of things is less than ideal.
“As for inhumane, you would not treat a puppy the way you think its A-OK to treat a human fetus.”
Is this a puppy with no sense of awareness, no ability to feel pain and no ability to live outwith the confines of a host female human body? I would once again defer to the wishes of the host human female. And I don’t think it’s “A-OK” to stop anything growing, but I think people can make their own decisions about priorities that affect them and any offspring they choose to have. You are essentially denying life to millions of children born wanted into happy, prepared and supportive environments, to encourage the existence of unwanted children in difficult circumstances. I’m not saying one is definitely better than the other, but you are wanting to kill unborn, undeveloped children too – ones who are existence simply because their mother terminated earlier pregnancies.
“I’m focused on the moral question not the political one.”
Really? I see you more focused on the misogynistic one. 😛
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Well, I suppose we’ll just have to agree to be mutually repulsed by each other.
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Yes, that’s what I’d say if I had nothing to reply to your argument and wanted to deflect attention from that fact. You do want to wind the clock back to the days when women bred from adolescence to death, don’t you? Think about it and let me know. If you think it’s more nuanced than that, I’d be interested to hear how.
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No I just kind of lost interest when you started making absurd accusations.
I do not consider breeding at all costs to be a virtue. I know a couple with 9 kids under the age of 11; the mom is a happy-go-lucky gal with the constitution of a horse. It is good to have a bunch of kids and embrace fertility but not everyone can or should do what those people do. Babies are good, but how many you have is a question of prudence.
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Good, I’m not disgusted by you now at least. What do you think about the morning after pill?
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Well, I’m still disgusted by your way of looking at the world.
Morning after pill? Hmmm, just sounds sinful.
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What would you do if you knew that your wife’s baby was likely to be sick for his or her entire life? Allow that child to be born knowing that he or she will have to endure painful operations and procedures throughout their life, if indeed they even survive very long? Would you inflict the anguish upon your wife and indeed yourself, watching your child go through pain and suffering?
What if there was a very real chance your wife could die during pregnancy? What if you were told the baby was never going to be viable for more than a few days after birth?
Would your view, and only your view matter, or would your wife be entitled to a view as well, especially as she would obviously be the one carrying the baby?
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“Human beings have evolved beyond the basics.”
That makes as much sense as “a woman’s right to choose,” as the excuse for the prenatal genocide called abortion.
What Queen Violet is actually saying is that Mother Nature evolved human beings beyond Mother Nature.
Which is actually saying that humans are some sort of magical creature that happened all by themselves.
Or how about this gem of genocidal mania:
“Human babies develop as dependent parasites within their host mothers.”
Such twisted thinking is what it takes to rationalize genocide.
The human race has been there and done that.
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It’s not some kind of insult calling human babies parasites, it’s a fact. Do you know what it means? Let me help with some dictionary definitions: “an animal or plant that lives in or on another animal or plant and gets food or protection from it” or “An organism which lives in or on another organism (its host) and benefits by deriving nutrients at the other’s expense”. They’re cute parasites and generally welcomed by their mothers.
No, I’m saying humans have naturally evolved to question our most basic animal motivations and seek solutions to problems related to reproduction. Some other creatures have developed different forms of birthing strategies (male hosts, fewer fertile periods etc) through chance survival developments. But as far as I’m aware, our conscious decisions to make other reproductive choices (women not being pregnant or nursing till we die) separates us from other animals.
Out of interest, are you not worried that all that sperm your god put in your body is going to waste? Surely if women are meant to be pumping out babies till they die in mindless and endless reproduction, men are meant to be pumping sperm in, to get the new bodies made. You’re moaning about the what you call ‘genocide’ of not-yet-humans, while contributing to the lack of not-yet-humans by not making more.
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Violet,
A parasite is a particular kind of creature who fills a niche in an ecosystem.
Any female animal who is pregnant with offspring is not beset by a parasite because being within the womb is but a phase in the unborn animal’s life cycle.
Likewise, motherhood, is the purpose of female animals.
Consequently, you have used the word “parasite” erroneously in defiance of the reality we know through science and common sense (simple reasoning).
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This is like a discussion on whether orchids are parasitic.
Is motherhood the only purpose of female animals? Wouldn’t that go against centuries of studies (in your religion) that say we’re more than animals?
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Denying the horror of life does not mitigate it. Admitting the horror of life does not diminish the beauty of life. Facing reality is difficult but necessary and invigorating.
A bit of gnomic wisdom for you there, from someone never at risk of childbirth. Perhaps I was influenced by “everybody’sdaughter”.
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“Denying the horror of life does not mitigate it. Admitting the horror of life does not diminish the beauty of life. Facing reality is difficult but necessary and invigorating.”
I agree (although I’m not sure why ‘everybody’s daughter’ has influence there). The trauma of pregnancy and childbirth is easily overcome by many women, and many women actually enjoy it. But it is a trauma to everyone’s body.
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If “parasite” is too strong for anyone, consider that procreation can use up a creature. Female black widow spiders often eat their mates- the effort to produce the eggs needs sustenance. Evolution or creation or whatever provides that sustenance with the male or males. Human females might want to be used up like they are, and think it a price worth paying, but do not diminish the cost.
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Great point Clare. Many women are happy to use up their body and their time in existence making other little humans to do the same, and that’s fine. It doesn’t mean it’s a rule.
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Good points, thanks for sharing.
Full disclosure, if you care: I found the title and concluding statement off-putting – not because of the sarcasm, but due to lack of qualifiers (some / many men know…).
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Fair enough. I wrote the post in furious rant mode and went overboard with my brush …
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Let me ask you this:
Are all men opposed to abortion? Are all women in favour of abortion? If not, why frame the debate in a men vs. women context?
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Why? Because it’s an attitude that women commonly face from men, and is indeed embedded into the social structure in many ways. Men know better (or they often think they do) even if they have never and can never experience what they’re discussing. The debate isn’t simply about abortion, it’s about a man telling a woman who has been through childbirth what the experience is. It’s like me telling him how he should feel about and deal with ejaculation based on my perception of it. And if you, presumably as a man, often met this kind of attitude, you might be tempted to do a post highlighting the ridiculous nature of the situation.
But point taken, I see it was off-putting for at least two men who don’t share the same viewpoint.
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Missing your blog …
Hope everything is okay over your way?
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Hello! Everything fine here, just lacking time. You ok? I still keep up with your pics when I can, some great dragonfly sex action going on in your garden.
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Hey, Ms. V. So lovely to read your Dulcet Tones!
Glad everything is okay. Lacking time is good I guess. Kids keeping you on your toes no doubt!
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Where’s my wave??
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Hello, my great leader! Missing your wisdom and daily guidance. At least I have your book to comfort me. 🙂
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Hope you’re well.
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What’s with the tumbleweed on your site?
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Herding busy-things.
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I was present at both of my children’s births. From my vantage point, it was pretty easy I just told my wife it wasn’t as bad as she thought! Luckily, the scalpel she hurled at me missed my head by 3″ . Other than that it was great! 🙂
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Yeah, that sort of comment makes me fizz. My partner looked terrified at the time but now says similar things. There’s that feeling of ‘how bad can be if women have been doing it forever?’. Humans have been torturing each other forever, and dying forever too – doesn’t mean it’s something we want to experience. Only difference with childbirth is you get a cool present at the end of it that manages to make it feel worthwhile.
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