a question for pro-lifers – what does success look like?
I’m still trying to understand what people who campaign against abortions are hoping to achieve. I left a comment on one of Tom Quiner‘s posts recently and haven’t had any answers yet, so thought I’d throw it open to the general public. Taking all the relevant facts about pregnancy termination into consideration, what do anti-abortion campaigners seek to achieve?
When you talk about ‘saving babies’, how would you plan to do this? Sedate every woman who is in a state of unwanted pregnancy and force her to give birth? I’m not clear where you logically think this goes, given that in many countries where abortion is illegal, the rate of unregulated pregnancy termination is higher than in the USA. Is that what you’re fighting for? Forcing as many women as possible to give birth to unwanted babies, and pushing the rest to seek dangerous alternatives?
I’d really appreciate someone explaining to me what ‘success’ looks like.
You honestly think Madblog, or any other pro-forced-birther is going to answer this?
They don’t know. They don’t actually think about this subject. Theirs is not a rational position.
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Well, I’d welcome their input just to understand what it is they hope they can achieve. Maybe they simply want to support women who are accidentally pregnant and can’t see any other option. It’s a common enough scenario and many women would welcome practical support raising a child alone or in a difficult relationship. Perhaps they get involved that way.
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I think you’re putting too much faith in the Madblogs of the US. Pink says it nicely below. They’re not interested in the human being.
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Hi violet
on another note.
Hey zande-
It’s been said that the true measure of a man can be found in how he treats someone and somethings that can do him absolutely no good………
Your disdain of the unborn speaks more eloquence to your wanting than ten thousand of your borrowed, tattered, and vapid comments.
If I was VW, perhaps upon further review, would send your repeated memes straight to spam or trash hell, as the suggested stench that they are.
And to correct you in front of a world wide audience, in which all reasonable people MUST agree, PRESIDENT Trump said none of those things you assert. Hello? January 20, 2017 sort of was a line of demarcation.
Soooo, has Word Press lifted it’s ban on your site for your vile commentary? Love this game? Not interested in the human being eh? Perhaps you would enjoy better company with snickering hyenas……….
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Hey Violet………….would you be so kind and reasonable and point out to zande……..that he is promoting a lie on your site………..
PRESIDENT Trump, as I have pointed out repeatedly, DID NOT SAY what zande alleges.
Thank you in advance. And no, you will not be forming a confederacy with me of sorts if you agree. Not today anyway.
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President Trump on how you must treat women
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Thanks for pointing that out ColorStorm. Did Trump actually never say these things, or has he apologised for saying them? I’m not clear on the status of these quotes.
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Of course he said them. Seems he said them each once. there is audio. He admitted as much.
But the clown show is pretending PRESIDENT Trump said these things…………..
Which he has obviously not. I’m not sure I can make this any clearer. And for this fraud to be perpetuated, and to be unchallenged……..
………so you see, any reasonable person MUST agree with me, and the inference that PRESIDENT Trump was busted saying these things some 20, 30, 40 years ago, is a flat out lie.
and btw, zande has said far worse on your pages, and on my blog, and on blogs all across the fruited plains of the earth.
That’s the point. His repeated attempt to put these things in view is btw, far worse that when first said by another man. That’s also a fact.
So yeah, it would be nice if you said ‘take your garbage pics elsewhere, as they have no context here.’
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I have to agree with you ColorStorm that he should include dates and the apologies the Mr Trump has made for those awful statements. Zande, could you oblige?
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I never post anything that’s a lie. Anyone is free to look up the quotes and confirm for themselves that President Donald J. Trump said these things.
Quite the fellow, for a sexual predator .
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Oh, and he’s never apologised for anything, so the words stand as a true and accurate reflection of his character.
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So, ColorStorm, do you think Mr. Trump has altered his internal values, after he became the President? I mean he has appologizesed, but do you think it is more likely, that he was forced to do so out of political convinience, rather than having had such loathsome values? I mean do you honestly think he was more troubled for being caught for having said these things, rather than from having once been the man who had such values?
If you think he has changed on such a fundamental level of values, what do you think caused it? Him becoming a president of a country? Really? If you do not think he has changed on this extremely fundamental level of values, then do you not think you are nitpicking? How is it even remotely noteworthy, that he was not president when he said those things, if he has not changed his values since he became one?
To me it seems like his move against the citizen rights and liberties – as in this very abortion issue – is an indication, that he really has not changed one bit, and that he still sees women merely as commodities, for his pleasure and political career. Actually looking at his very short precidency, it seems very much like to him all humans are mere commodities. I mean he has now restricted people coming to the US from countries from wich refugees are flooding out of, but not from countries where the funding of terrorism is known to come from, or from countries known terrorists come from and he has expressed he finds no ethical dispute about torture as a method of gathering intelligence. To me, this represents such disregard for human life, that him making legal abortion more difficult, is an obvious expression of hypocricy. Is it not?
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ColorStorm, apparently Trump has never denied saying these things, never attempted to explain them, and hasn’t apologised. Did you vote for the man who said to grab women by their private parts, treat them badly, and treat them like accessories? So you’re here complaining about what?
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Hi there! I’ll bite.
We are not interested in the human being….
I take it you’re human? You were also human in your mother’s womb. Even looked like one, if you care to educate yourself.
Death is permanent. Abortion is always supposed to result in death.
So you are there. In your mother’s womb. Would you like to live? Would you like that chance?
Some people pretend that death is better than life sometimes, depending on the situation. How about you. Would you like, maybe, to take a dying baby’s place? If death is so great?
Everyone deserves the chance to live. How can that ever be someone else’s ‘choice’?
There is always a way, if you try. There are real options, and they are multiple. Give life a chance! It’s good! I betcha anything you are glad you are alive.
An end to abortion? What would it mean? The beginning of a celebration of life! And a solid rejection of death before life has any chance.
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Hi hearttoheartwithjesus
Abortion is always supposed to result in death.
How can you “kill” something that cannot “die”?
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John,
An unborn child dies the same way you would under the same circumstances.
Imagine yourself being cut to pieces or being flushed down the toilet in alkaline bath water.
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That’s an interesting analogy SOM. We’d first have to remove John’s whole life experience and developed personality, and then remove his ability to think or feel anything. So he’d be in the same state of awareness as a fetus when it’s aborted.
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Violet,
If I presented the same argument you make in favor of prenatal genocide only instead of unborn child I insert, woman, African American, or homosexual, you would call me a racist, sexist, bigot homophobe.
Why am I a racist, sexist, bigot homophobe but you consider yourself enlightened and empathetic.
People don’t deserve to die just because they don’t look like you, think like you, act like you or have the same needs as you.
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I agree, nobody deserves to die or suffer SOM. Women who are unexpectedly pregnant included. We know that a fetus doesn’t suffer and doesn’t die (in the sense that it isn’t ‘switched off’, as it was never on) it just stops growing to the point where it could be. I’m not a fan of halting the progress of potential humans beings either, I just think the alternatives are often worse for everyone.
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I beg your pardon?
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How can you “kill” something that cannot “die”?
You are saying something is being killed, being murdered, so please explain this.
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Well what do you THINK abortion is? It ends the life of a living, growing being. If you DON’T have an abortion, it continues to grow and develop until it dies, at SOME stage of human life.
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No, it does not end a human being, a human organism.
A human being can die, and the legal, scientific and medical definition of death is not in dispute: it is the cessation of sustained EEG activity. That is death, human death, and until full bilateral synchronisation (week 28) a foetus simply cannot “die” as it is simply not a human organism.
So, the question remains: how can you “kill” something that cannot “die”?
And if you don’t want to believe me, believe Professor Goldenring, a leading figure in the anti-abortion movement. He wrote the New England Journal of Medicine paper, “Development of the Fetal Brain.”
That last line again: After brain death what is left of the organism is once again only a collection of organs, all available to us for use in transplantation, since the full human being no longer exists.
You see, your problem here is you think “life” magically appears in the foetus. It doesn’t. At no stage does “life” magically appear in a zygote, a blastocyst, embryo, or foetus. Life began on earth 3.8 billion years ago and hasn’t been interrupted since. A foetus was never inorganic and suddenly becomes organic. For this reason, the only true method we have to distinguish the onset of a distinct, functioning human being is when the brain begins to exhibit sustained EEG activity, and we see full bilateral synchronisation only at week 28.
That is when the human organism starts to exist. That is when we say it is “On,” and only after something is “On” can it be turned “Off.”
You are saying foetus’s are being killed, so I’m asking you, if this true then explain to me how you can kill something that cannot die?
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Do you find yourself convincing? I don’t. I think you are being obtuse. And heartless.
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That does not surprise me, but it does not alter the fact that the language you are using is simply factually wrong. You are not presenting a rational argument, and your response reflects that. Again, a foetus was never inorganic and suddenly becomes organic. That’s just a fact. “Life” never emerges in the foetus. Ever.
So, you don’t believe the words of the pro-life, anti-abortionist, Professor Goldenring from the Department of Pediatrics, New York Medical College? Perhaps then you’ll accept the words of the so-called Father of the Anti-Abortion movement, Dr. Jack Willke:
Well, we know precisely when that brain function kicks in, week 25, although it is not until 28 weeks till we see full bilateral synchronisation, which is critical to identifying the onset of the complete (functioning) human being. Before then the neurons, dendrites and axons, with synapses between them, are simply not in place, and if they are not there, functioning, firing, then the foetus cannot meet the legal, scientific, and medical definition of death… which I remind you, is not in dispute. If you like, I can post the UK’s “Diagnosis of Death,” the U.S.’s ”Uniform Determination of Death Act,” and the Australian/New Zealand “ANZICS Statement on Death” so you can read them for yourself.
So, until you can tell me how you can “kill” something that cannot “die” you’re argument (whatever that might actually be as you haven’t really presented anything) is little more than an emotionally-charge, factually incorrect word salad.
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Listen. I don’t care what you or this individual try to assert. It is contrary to COMMON SENSE. You can argue “science” all you like and try to baffle me, yourself and everyone else with BS. The fact is, even the ZYGOTE is human, alive, and will cease to be alive (die) if you actively try to kill it. Let’s be real here and not try to hide behind ‘scientific’ nonsense.
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Those “individuals” are leaders in the so-named “pro-life” movement (more accurately, pro-forced-birth).
“The fact is, even the ZYGOTE is human”
No, that is not a fact. Is a metal chassis a functioning car?
Please don’t be asinine. It’s an ugly disposition.
Fact: A Human being can die.
Here is the legal, scientific and medical definition of death.
This is mirrored in US law:
It is also mirrored in Australian law:
So, until full bilateral synchronisation (week 28), how can you “kill” something that cannot “die”?
Please address the question in a rational and coherent manner.
Meaningless screeds don’t count.
To be truthful, the only way you can actually open this discussion up is by proving the existence of something akin to a soul, and demonstrate when that “soul” enters the foetus.
If you can establish the existence of the soul then the conversation is blown wide open and I’d have to review the whole subject in light of this new information. Some questions we’d need answered in this new conversation might be the following: Where does it (the soul) come from? Is a soul created anew, or is it a continuation of some older lineage? What substance is a soul made from? Can a soul be destroyed?
For your information, though, The Templeton Foundation, a Christian research group, has spent the better part of last 30 years and over US$1.5 billion trying to find evidence of the soul. To date, their efforts have returned exactly zero positive results.
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John. The FERTILIZED EGG has the genes of a distinct, unrepeatable human being. It’s is very much alive and devoping rapidly.
Pro-forced-birth? Hardly. Your words, never mine. Not even on the radar.
This so-called leader does not represent me. I think for myself and come to my own conclusions. His so-called credentials do not impress me, nor do convaluted arguments.
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I think for myself
I’m afraid to say, so far, you haven’t demonstrated any thinking at all.
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Okaaay.
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John,
An unborn child is as alive as you are (that is, if you believe in modern science).
And it can die just like you, too.
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No, it cannot.
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“An end to abortion? What would it mean? The beginning of a celebration of life!”
That all sounds very nice, but I meant what would it mean practically? Do you want to make abortion illegal, or do you just want to convince women never to do it? Would you force women to give birth by sedating them so they don’t seek out dangerous abortion alternatives? Or just put them in jail? I just don’t understand what the anti-abortion lobby sees as success for their campaign.
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Well, Violet Wisp, I am not sure you WILL understand. It’s not forcing anything. It’s about a Culture of Life. It’s about embracing life, which is very practical and realistic. A culture of destruction and death results in its own demise.
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I’m with you about embracing life. I see the mess that outlawing abortion makes in other countries, and I think the only sensible way forward is to help people avoid unwanted pregnancies. Is that you mean?
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I would praise it differently, but yes.
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I think we could all quite possibly agree that fewer abortions are better than more. I fall into the category that thinks outlawing all abortion would be a huge mistake. My reasons:
1. There would still be abortions.
2. I think it would literally be the catalyst for a real civil war in the USA. I honestly think this would cause civil unrest and bloodshed of born people would ensue. I don’t see how you could outlaw abortion in the USA and this NOT happen as a result.
3. Abortion is already in decline in the West. More and more women don’t view it as an option for themselves, probably because technology is the way it is. That doesn’t mean that a majority of women want it to be a crime.
4. Because personal attitudes are changing, we will see less and less abortions in 20 or so years even if we do nothing. I can’t remember the stats, but fewer abortions are being performed today than 10 years ago.
So success for me looks like better sex education for young people that results in less “OMG I can’t handle this I’m too young or fill in the_____________ “abortions. Rather than legislation. That is a big change for me and part of that change, at least the sex ed part is a direct result of interacting with you and your readers.
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Agreed Jim, thanks for your input.
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Jim,
The last civil war in the United States ended slavery.
If it takes another civil war to end the Great Genocide of the Unborn, so be it.
For just as the American Civil War was caused by the Southern slavers, a civil war to end abortion would be on people like you and Violet, genocidal maniacs.
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You are right, the Civil War did end US slavery. It took a while, but slavery, of that kind, was eradicated as a result. I don’t think overturning RvW would end abortion, do you? To me that is the critical difference. Abortion would more than likely decrease as a result of the change in law, but it would still go on, even after all the bloodshed of another civil war.
I am sure you agree with me on this point.
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Jim,
A just government must protect the right to life especially for the unborn because they are defenseless.
There will always exist injustice, but we must establish government (rule making, enforcement of the rules) that is directed toward justice.
The Great Genocide of the Unborn enshrined into law by Roe v Wade makes a mockery of justice.
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Silence, I have been on the pro-life side of the argument for 20+ years and I get what you are saying. I guess I have become more of a pragmatist on this issue. What actually works?
If abortion is outlawed under most circumstances in the US, that would make our government more just, in your view. It would be more just because it would no longer support, encourage or promote the genocide of the unborn.
But abortions would still take place. Obviously it would be lower, but by how much? Who knows. Chile, up until last year, and I am not sure if this has changed, outlaws all abortion for any reason whatsoever. It is COMPLETELY illegal. What I found shocking was that Chile has the highest abortion rate of all Latin American countries. It is ILLEGAL there and they have more than any other country in Latin America. The abortion rate in Chile is 5 out of every 1000. But the rate in South Africa, where abortion is totally legal is 2.7 out of every 1000.
What would you say is most important: Abortion is outlawed or that fewer abortions occur?
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Jim,
Being “pragmatic” is just another name for amoral.
That means justice can by anything you want it to be any time you want it to be something.
That is the definition of totalitarian tyranny not American justice.
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Silence, if you look up “pragmatic” in your thesaurus, amoral is not one of the choices 🙂
You didn’t actually answer my question. What do you think is most important in this debate: Outlawing abortion or actually reducing abortions?
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Jim,
In politics and philosophy “pragmatic” means amoral or sophist (lying).
Engineers and auto mechanics are also pragmatic but not in the sense of a politician or a sophist (liar).
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Love it! Using the logical progression to expose idiocy is a beautiful technique.
I want to know even more: Does pro-lifing cross borders? As in, do they get to impose their will on women in neighbouring countries? Or is it country specific?
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No, I am genuinely interested in understanding what the aim is. Dp just explained what he thinks would happen on the last post (not sure if he counts it as success):
Just that there are less abortions and some people are happy parents as a result of it. But surely that aim could more easily be achieved by providing more support for families and people on low incomes.
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Well, then you might be asking the wrong question. The abortion debate isn’t really about abortion, per se. The pro-life people even oppose the morning after pill. That demonstrates their concern has nothing to do with the human, but purely ideological power and control. They want the right to make law, to impose their will.
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Any attempted argument against the morning after pill is truly jaw dropping. But I kind of understand, I feel a little wisp of sadness every month a cute little egg isn’t grown into a baby – you just never know what cool people you’re missing.
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The problem with ‘pro-life’ is that it doesn’t address what a woman is supposed to do in cases of rape or assault, and it gives zero regard to the life of the mother. Pregnancy is tough on the body, tougher than I, as a man, will ever understand. The embryo literally draws resources from the mother, leaving her drained emotionally and physically, and actually increases the risk to her own life.
Sometimes protection fails. Every precaution can be taken and yet, pregnancy can still happen? What then? I haven’t read a satisfactory answer from the pro-life crowd.
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Tom Quiner got back to me on his post and suggested that adoption is the answer. It’s still forced birth and suggests the needs of a potential human being take precedence over the fully developed host. Also, given that thousands of children can’t find homes that want them, I’m not sure the demand for adoption is as high as he thinks.
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The woman who posted the mantra I quoted above would ban the Morning after Pill as well, and once abortion was declared illegal, those who knowingly performing abortion she would want charged with murder.
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Well I guess that answers the question of what she wants to see. Illegal abortions and desperate women killed, injured or in jail. And millions of extra humans brought up in poverty, violent homes, by single parents. Happy world for the pro-lifers. They save lots of people they don’t want to mix with in real life, and get to jail the most vulnerable women in society.
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Her ”goal” is to get people to acknowledge it is wrong and it is murder, as per the mantra.
And you are right regarding the emotional thing linking abortion to rape etc.
As Jim pointed out, down here in SA we have one of the lowest rates in the world – around 2.7 per thousand!
He pointed out that a lot of this has to do with culture, and abortion is legal down here.
So making it illegal will not likely achieve the desired goal.
And you must have noticed that all these ”pro lifers” from the States seem to somehow emotionally divorced from the abortion issue in other countries – or at least this is my perception.
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I don’t think that is necessarily true, Pink. I have known a lot of people who consider themselves “pro-life.” Most of them look at all abortion as the murder of an innocent human being and just want it to stop. I don’t think it is power hungry thing at all. but, perhaps some of the hard core leaders in the PL movement could be guilty of the charge.
Now I’ve lurked around here long enough to hear John’s strong argumentation against the “it’s murdering a baby” view. As strong of an argument as he makes, most people who are pro-life don’t think about it at those deeper levels. It is more of a gut thing, taking innocent life, rather than a power thing “I want to control you.”
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If that were the case then opposition to the morning after pill should be nil, right?
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I am not so sure that logically follows the other. BUT, if a person views taking the morning after pill as the murder of an unborn baby, which I don’t, it makes sense they would be against it.
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The reason it follows is that position would require a profound ignorance of medicine and science.
Conception is a process that takes up to two weeks. The morning after pill prevents the implantation of a fertilized egg- and that’s only in the 50% of cases in which the implantation occurs. So talk of “baby murder” is entirely ridiculous, infantile and utterly misleading.
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I don’t disagree with you on that one. Maybe I misunderstood your point. It sounded like you were saying that anyone opposed to the morning after pill, does so only because they want to control other people. Which just is not true. If your point is that people opposed to the morning after pill don’t have all the facts, and don’t really know what they are opposing, that is a different thing.
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Interesting position. So are you framing it as “they don’t know any better”?
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I am framing this way: It is emotional, not dictatorial. Most people who are entirely against abortion are against it in every conceivable way, with a few exceptions, because they view it as the taking of an innocent human life and NOT as a desire to control other people. Even though every law passed that restricts abortion IS controlling what other people do, it is not what animates them.
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There be truth in those words, Jim.
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Isn’t what animates them false information? Propaganda?
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I believe the word is “Alternative Facts,” which appears to have surpassed Oxfords 2016 word of the year, Post-truth.
In action, Alternative Facts makes the picture on the right contain more people than that on the left. It’s magic, really
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Mr. Merveilleux,
What if someone imposed their will on you and decided it was their choice to cut you to pieces and sell your butchered body parts for coin?
Yes, murder and genocide are crimes against humanity and do indeed, cross borders.
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If your issue is “butchery” then I presume you have no objection to the morning after pill, or abortion in the first two months?
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Mr. Merveilleux,
You have to change the subject because you know you have no argument.
Quit trolling and get down to business.
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I didn’t change the subject. The subject is abortion which you’re saying is butchery. I asked that you be honest enough to clarify that position. You refuse to because you know it puts you in a corner.
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Mr. Merveilleux,
How do we get from your woman’s right to choose genocide to the morning after pill?
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Stop deflecting. What is your position on the morning after pill?
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Mr. Merveilleux,
You are a troll.
I am not deflecting. You are.
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I wonder if we’ll ever the know the truth about SOM ….
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Violet,
What truth might that be?
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Well, obviously that’s what I’m wondering. Remember when I suggested you’re a troll trying to make conservative Christians look ridiculous? We’ve established that’s not true obviously. But John thinks you’re in jail, Ark thinks you’re an alcoholic and everyone knows you’re playing some kind of game, even if it’s just the self-amusement of an eccentric American conservative Christian.
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Except you’re the one who refuses to answer what your position is on the morning after pill. Because you’re the troll. Everyone knows you’re a professional troll.
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Mr. Merveilleux,
I have stated my position quite clearly.
It is you and Violet and your fellow genociders who can’t explain how a woman’s “right” to choose genocide is in any way moral or just.
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On the bright side, you do a good job of showing the pro-life argument to be truly ridiculous and illogical. 🙂
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Violet,
My argument is based on pure logic.
If I based my argument on how I felt I would think exactly like you do.
I mean what right does that invisible, voiceless, powerless little mass of fetal tissue have to disrupt anyone’s life?
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No you haven’t answered if you include the morning after pill in your definition of “butchery”. That’s a yes or no answer.
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Mr. Merveilleux,
Put on your thinking cap and try to reason out the difference between murder by chemical or murder by blade.
You can’t because murder is murder no matter the weapon used.
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Thanks. That’s all I wanted; for you to demonstrate to everyone here how you don’t care about actual facts. You prefer to use deceptive language in the hope of fooling and manipulating the people who read what you write. Anyone who looks up the morning after pill and what it does can check what I mean.
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Mr. Merveilleux,
Is not the morning after pill composed of chemicals that rip the newly conceived unborn child from the mother’s uterus, thus killing it?
What? You think the morning after pill is magic?
POOOF! And the little bastard magically gets flushed to oblivion in a uterine blood bath?
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Yeah- you go with that line. From deception to trolling to more deception.
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No Mr Marevollous-
The deception is men who make no distinction between the life of a man, or the life of a hyena. At least the ravaging beast has a reason to snicker, as he acts according to his nature.
It is the nature of decent humanity to ‘tend unto life.’ The ravenous animal feasts on the death of others, even aiding and abetting the carnage. The righteous tend to life, why don’t you? So do the facts of life condemn the slaughter of the innocents.
Take it away Silence…………
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Are you an idiot or another fraudster? Do tell us what the morning after pill does? Go on! No need for your imbecilic Gaddafi-like non-sequiturs. What did the ravaging beast do? Finger your mother?
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@marv
Ah, many a good man was mistaken for a dunce hidden under a raggedy coat.
It is I who recognize that men and women are made in the image of God……….howling dogs? eh, not so much.
It is you who has no clue why you do not keep genealogies for ground hogs. Hope this helps.
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Where did you learn how to speak Fortune Cookie? Is there a special school or is it a package deal with Evangelicalism ?
It’s hilarious how someone so spectacularly ignorant thinks word games give anyone at all the impression anything you say has meaning. Lol! The howling dogs licked Colourstorm’s mother’s titty, and that means Jesus loves abortions! Amendment to abortions !
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Mr. Merveilleux,
The truth of the matter is not “my line.”
Further, the truth cannot be a lie. Only a lie can be a lie.
Consequently, since I am telling the truth, it you who are lying.
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Troll. Still no answer on the morning after pill because you’re a shameless scam artist trying to deceive people. And you need to do that because the facts don’t back up your fraudulent use of language. #alternativefacts
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I gave you a complete answer to your question.
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Well Violet, of course I am a pro-lifer… I believe God doesn’t want any babies killed, no matter what stage of pregnancy…
I do believe there should be extenuating circumstances for allowing an abortion to occur…
They say that 75% of pregnant girls decide to keep the baby…even if they give it up for adoption…
Thought U might like to see famous people who we would have never been blessed to know, if their parent had an abortion…
http://pjsaunders.blogspot.com/2012/09/what-do-ludwig-von-beethoven-justin.html
have a great day !!
bruce
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Thanks Bruce, an interesting post! It just makes me wonder what amazing people we never got to know because a child was grown in a difficult time, and the ones who would have been conceived at a better time for the whole family didn’t get a chance to live. I should know, without my two miscarriages, I never would have conceived the amazing children I have now! It really does make you think of all the egg/sperm combinations out there, and how exciting it is to have children when you’re able to provide for them and love them with the time and care they all deserve.
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Violet,
Your miscarriages don’t give you the right or the moral authority to condemn unborn children to a violent merciless death.
People like you, who believe in genocide, are barbarians and your attempts to guilt trip men because you are not a healthy woman is despicable.
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Indeed SOM. My miscarriages give me perspective on what a developing human life actually is, and what the loss of one can bring in its place. I’m not attempting to guilt trip anyone – a miscarriage a perfectly healthy and natural process. Ask any other animal. I’m attempting to share with you my experiences of pregnancy. If you want to hear more about any that I’ve experienced, to help you understand from the point of view of a woman (the majority section of society who are most likely to experience it), I’m more than happy to share. Giving birth and having miscarriages can be some of the most traumatic and painful experiences in life, and I think it’s good to talk about it. Too often they are hidden by notions like miscarriage is shameful, which I think you were suggesting above, tsk tsk.
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Violet,
Your miscarriages give you incite into miscarriages, nothing more.
NOTHING MORE.
You don’t get to make your bad health a source of moral authority or special knowledge.
Leftists always do that as a means of guilt-tripping the opposition into silence.
You are a barbarian genocider who believes in the industrial slaughter of unborn children.
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Once again SOM, I’m not in favour of abortion, I just think the alternatives for society are worse – forcing women to grow unwanted babies, criminalising desperate acts, endangering lives, forcing poor quality lives on children. And I think people like you who trumpet ideas like genocide and murder have lost touch with the scientific and social reality.
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And imagine all those like Moses(sic), Constantine , Adolf Hitler, Mao, etc and any number of Super Psychotic Celebs we would have missed out on if they had been aborted.
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Ark,
The view from your toilet thrown of judgment must be incredible.
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Really? You think the world is better because of ”Moses” and Hitler?
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Ark,
I have no way of hallucinating whether the world is better or worse because of Moses and Hitler.
I don’t know where your hallucinations take you, but I’m here on Earth dealing with reality, the way the world actually is.
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The comment was in answer to the Beethoven remark from Bruce.
If we are going to wonder what the world would have been like if someone such as Beethoven had been aborted then it is perfectly legit to consider the same thing about someone such as Adolf Hitler or Moses.
Even though Moses is a fictional character, there is most definitely a case to be made that Judaism, Christianity and Islam may well have not arisen at all.had he not been created.
Then again … the Hebrews might have simply created someone else, called Hymie Ginsberg.
Who knows, right?
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Goodness, if someone had just aborted SOM, that alone would justify the existence of the procedure.
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@marv
And with this one sweeping comment, you have just proclaimed the victory of your opponent. Well done, and congratulations to SoM for his easy victory without drawing a sword.
May all readers of this thread observe the pains of defeat as the frenchman lops off his own head with a broken guillotine.
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You even give undereducated idiots a bad name.
And she clicked her heels three times and that made her the winner!!! Hurraaaah!!! Colorstorm won because he made up the rules! I love it. This religion stuff is just hilarious. If you ever use the word “and”, ever again, that means you’re a child molester and you’re going to hell.
Woo hoo! That’s Colorstorm logic for the world to see 😀
Your last line is particularly wonderful: “frenchman lops off his own head with a broken guillotine” – oh, wait. If the guillotine was broken?! LOL! Do your parents know you’re using the computer all by yourself? 😀
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Bruce,
If you accept the morality and ethics laid down by God in the Bible, than you should know that committing an evil act for a good cause is immoral.
There is never any moral excuse for the premeditated murder of unborn human beings.
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You might this post I participated in interesting, especially the take on the morning after pill.
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Ark,
I tried to read that post.
But it was so stupid I couldn’t get through to the end.
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Great question violet. As a Christian who was very prolife, I don’t think I ever really thought in terms of ‘success’. Even from a Christian POV, final success isn’t really much of a foreseeable possibility. For me, the idea was impressing upon people to make the ‘right’ choice to save the innocent lives which were being tossed away like so much inconvenient garbage. I was and am still in favor of exemptions for life and health of the mother and situations of rape or incest. I now see it less of a job for government to be ‘deciding for’ women and families and more of a personal and family decision between them and their doctors.
I’d like to see less abortions happening, and I think there are if I’ve read the stats correctly. But as a deconverted Christian, I need longer feel the need to ‘force’ the personal decision upon women or families with the power of governmental intrusion.
Great question and post. Thx
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Thanks for your comment KIA. I think most people agree that high levels of abortion aren’t useful for anyone. It’s important that all sides work together to help find ways of changing society that so there are fewer unwanted pregnancies.
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When you have discussions like these, and you eliminate the finger pointing, name calling and labeling, and actually listen to the underlying concerns, what you find out is that pro-life and pro-choice people actually have similar views about abortion. Most of us believe that abortion is a terrible choice for any woman to have to make and less of them would be better than more of them. How we make that happen is different.
Most of my friends in the pro-life movement in the USA want Roe v Wade to be overturned and then campaign to make abortion illegal in their home state. They also want to educate women about what abortion really is so that they are better informed about the procedure, and they want abstinence taught in the schools. Basically, you teach young people to not have sex and take away the abortion choice if they do have sex and get pregnant. They are also very supportive of on adoption as a way to reduce abortions.
But to answer Violet, I think success for many in the PLM is overturning Roe v Wade.
The people on the pro-choice side, like Violet, believe less unwanted pregnancies is the answer not more laws. The focus here is on education, birth control etc, so that unwanted pregnancies don’t happen in the first place or at least less of them occur. Stop the problem before it starts.
Because the goal for the Pro-live movement is to overturn Roe v Wade, the Pro-choice side focuses on that battle.
If we would stop trying to overturn Roe, the other side could stop defending it and maybe, just maybe cooler heads would prevail. Perhaps we could work together to educate young women and men about sex, and how to not get pregnant when you are not ready to be pregnant. Abstinence could still be taught as one of the options for this, but certainly not the only one.
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i agree. im trying to learn and change as i go since dconversion. thx again for the encouragement
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Violet,
So tell, what level of genocide do you consider acceptable?
Is one unborn child slaughtered, butchered and sold each day an acceptable level?
Or would 100 unborn children slaughtered, butchered and sold each month be an acceptable compromise?
Civilized people have ZERO tolerance regarding cold blooded murder or genocide.
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SOM tell me, what level of suicide and harm do you consider acceptable in women who conclude that they cannot go through with pregnancies? Civilised people, including the millions of highly educated healthcare professionals who have witnessed the results of illegal abortion, and who truly understand the development stage of the potential human being, have ZERO tolerance regarding removing a woman’s right to decide what is right for her and her family.
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Violet,
The genocide of unborn children is not the answer to anyone else’s problems, no matter how grave.
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Well, before about 1993, I would have expressed disgust at the concept of, for want of better words, “take the baby, rip the baby out of the womb”. How could anyone do that? Embryo research was also a Bad thing: the embryo should be treated with respect, so should not be the subject of research. It’s a gut thing. I imagine people I knew would feel the same way. Then I met a woman who needed one, and empathy converted me to pro-choice immediately. Just like that. Though I understand that some pro-life women remain pro-life even after their own abortions.
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The underlying issue is: Who gets to make the decision? The individual or a third party? That’s at the basis of citizenship in a free nation.
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Clare,
Empathy is one of your many emotions.
Your emotions don’t give you the moral authority to condemn people to death.
In the case of abortion you are condemning people to death on a genocidal scale.
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SOM, I’m beginning to suspect you would say the same about condoms – condemning potential people to death on a genocidal scale! This is the problem with a lot of the arguments from your side, they’re sheer sentimentality based our base, instinctive response to things like ‘cute little puppies’. We’re talking about actual lives – potential lives, and adult lives – the kind of people you don’t care two hoots about when you pass them in the street.
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The irony being that God has carried out genocide, and permitted genocide in his name, and this included the deaths of infants.
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Darth,
Your insane hallucination using the Bible as fodder is no irony at all.
Why can’t you people stick to the subject?
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SOM, the Bible depicts acts of mass violence at God’s command, and even at God’s hand – what does your sense of morality have to say about that?
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Darth,
You are trying to judge God.
The discussion at hand is the wanted murder of unborn children.
If you publish a post about your concerns I would be glad to comment there.
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The point is, God can apparently command the moral killing of fully formed human beings, yet the abortion of an embryo is deemed immoral. Do you not consider that to be a mixed message?
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Actually, the Middle Eastern god is pro-abortion, and even has an abortion ritual detailed in the bible
In Numbers 5:11-21 a bizarre and abusive process is described which is to be performed by a priest on any woman suspected of adultery. In the text a poison is mixed and the accused woman is brought before the priest who says, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband may the Lord cause you to become a curse among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell.”
As clear as day this is a definitive description of an induced abortion; an act where poison is forcibly given to ruin the foetus and rid a woman of another man’s child.
But there’s more. Yhwh is a thorough fan of abortion, personally performing many, and ordering countless more:
In Hosea 9:11-16, the son of Beeri prays for his god to intervene in earthly affairs and wreak havoc on the unborn of an entire population. “Give them, 0 Lord: what wilt thou give? Give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts… Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb.” To paraphrase, Hosea pleads that the people of Ephraim can no longer have children, to which Yhwh dutifully obeys and makes all their unborn children miscarry. Now, terminating a pregnancy unnaturally is unmistakably what we today call an abortion.
In Hosea 13:16 the Christian god is utterly diabolical as he dashes to “pieces” the infants of Samaria and orders “their pregnant women [to be] ripped open by swords.” This, self-evidently, describes mass abortions of such barbarity that it’s hard to even fathom.
In Numbers 31:17 Moses commands “Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every women that hath known man by lying with him.” In other words, kill all women that are or could be pregnant, which is plainly abortion for the foetus.
In 2 Kings 15:16 Yhwh again orders pregnant women to be “ripped open,” which is both abortion and homicide on a mass scale. “At that time Menahem destroyed the town of Tappuah and all the surrounding countryside as far as Tirzah, because its citizens refused to surrender. He killed the entire population and ripped open the pregnant women.”
In total there are in fact twenty-six separate instances where this Middle Eastern god performs abortions on demand, conducts infanticide (the intentional killing of newborns), and murders toddlers en masse; acts recounted from 1 Samuel 15:3 to Isaiah 13:15-18 where this god not only smashes babies to death but also orders the rape of their mothers. In a word the Christian god is a heinous baby-killing, foetus-destroying monster, and as it turns out his son is also no friend of the unborn. In the Gospel of the Egyptians, Jesus not only demands total abstinence but preaches for the outright separation of the sexes, stating that “sorrow” and what he repeatedly calls “error” will remain with man for just “As long as women bear children.” The statement is quite explicit: don’t ever get pregnant, and if you do then abortion is better than birth.
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Zande-
This reply is for others to correct your ignorance, as they may actually appreciate what the scriptures say. Reading is one thing. Interpreting is one thing. Understanding is not necessarlly a result of the two.
Example? Sure. When Daniel interpreted the kings dreams, there was no understanding AS YET. He simply stated what the writing on the wall SAID. Hello? But then, Daniel gave both the interpretation and the understanding.
Sorry to say, you have no understanding AS YET. Your own commenting is proof enough. This will sail over your head, but someone else may wake up.
– Your so called middle eastern ‘god’ can neither count to three or tie ‘his shoes.
– Until you give God the courtesy of existing, you will be more lost than London fog.
– The God of creation has seen fit to raise a nation, ie, Israel.
– The nations of the bible are relevant only as they relate to Israel. Are you listening?
-. Israel was not to be reckoned AMONG THE NATIONS.Are you listening?
– The commands to slay men, women, and children were to cease the likes of offspring such as Agag also known as Hitler.from eradicating the nation who has shown God’s blessing, ie, Israel.
– The life and times of Hitler is proof that yes, baby Agag has rotten offspring. Note the word: HAS.
-. God knows the future. You do not. He knows what kind of people will grow up and be perpetual enemies to Israel, driving them into the sea……..Sound familiar?
And and a bonus, learn WHY the law was given, those 613 cumbersome regulations and rules, and to WHO it was given, so you citing law that has nothing to do with you is purely laughable, and this is why you are clueless, putting God under your thumb, as if He has any defects of character.
But maybe a more valuable lesson would be to learn why people should not remove boundary pins from the ground., according to the law, or will you fault God here also…………and call Him a barbarian………….
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Darth,
The point is, you are standing on your toilet thrown of justice and judging God.
That is positively silly.
I recommend doing what I do: keep God out of the conversation.
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But many of your judgements are couched in your faith. So you’re not really leaving God out of it are you?
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Darth,
In my comments, I am making an appeal to common ground.
That common ground is obviously not God.
Our common ground is that we all accept the discoveries and teachings of modern science and that we all agree that murder and genocide are immoral.
If we do indeed share this common ground than we all can reason out very easily that abortion is a grave, immoral act of wanted murder.
If you are not part of “we” then you are a barbarian who believes in mass murder.
The logic is dead simple.
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You argue that your conclusion be seen as the common ground and use an ad hominem suggestion that disagreement with your conclusion means anyone who doesn’t share your conclusion is a ‘barbarian’. That isn’t logic.
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Darth,
My conclusion is not common ground.
My conclusion is a product of reason based on our common ground.
That’s how argumentations.
I states a couple of facts and then reasoned out a conclusion based on those facts.
It is now up to you to reason out something different if you can, based on the same common ground facts:
1. Genocide is evil.
2. Modern science teaches the truth.
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It’s amazing what a dose of reality can do for strong opinions. It’s easy to take the hard line based on sentimentality but a different story when you see how it affects people’s lives.
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The courts have just said that one solution to that problem is to shut out awareness of how that affects people’s lives; and that a n Orthodox Jewish community can prevent a father seeing her [oops what a giveaway] children to achieve that.
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Violet,
What about the life of the unborn who is murdered in cold blood?
You completely ignore that because you are anti-science and of the opinion that simple, personal choice justifies cold blooded murder.
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Perhaps you are never going to get an actual answer from the pro-life crowd to your question Violet. I suspect, it is because their position on this issue is not thought through to any conclusion. They go by their gut instinct and cultural inheritance wich often includes not only black and white world view, but also superstitious authoritarian concepts of what is true and just. Such a world view does not support inquisitve, nor critical thought. Quite the opposite, it supresses logic and promotes conservatism extending to atavism. And I am not even trying to insult them by saying this, that as a definition you and I might find insulting. Rather, regardless of the depth of their self image, this is actually how they percieve the world and even adhere to such order, though maybe not quite on the words I used.
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I can understand where they are coming from in some respects, so I want to understand where think their campaigning could lead. I think it’s a healthy prompt for them to think about it. Nice to see you Raut,I’ve missed your wisdom!
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Aw, how nicely you compliment me.
I think I too can somewhat understand where they come from. I would be interrested wether if they can understand us. Do they think us as homicidal maniacs for demanding this right for the woman? Or what? No, really, I think they simply have not thought it through. There is this misconception about metaphysics, that people seem to have. They sometimes think, that if something is about principle, an established social value, they do not even have to provide logical solutions in practical life or explain to themselves the ethics of the issue.
I think it is the result of cultural authoritarianism, where some (imagined or real) authority simply has the last word on wether something is a value, good, right or band and wrong. To me this appears as a sort of infantillism, wich has been indoctrinated to people, in a way, that is easy, because it presents itself as a moral model, that they do not have to evaluate, or even really think about. Merely accept the authority, through their intuitive gut feeling, wich does not have to be based on any facts, rather just on their cultural heritage and personal instinctive behaviour models. It is easy, and seems to remove responsibility of actually making an informed choise on any complex issue. It seems like these people were in a way taught to think that thinking is hard, but no worries, because someone else, like a supernaturally wise parent figure has already done it for them, like they were children and not responsible for the choise.
So, that is why I doubt you will ever recieve any actual response to your very simple and justified question. You are addressing people, who have internalized this idea, that they are not responsible for the actual results of their political choise, because they base it on the authoritarian and irrational model of values.
Any of this does not make your question any less valid. I do believe, that some of these people are at very least stopped by your question to make an effort to think and come up with a secular moral reasons for their chosen position and through that process, might come to realize on some level how that ultimately is the better method for morals, though most of even those will propably only come up with secular sounding excuses for the position they have married their identity to. I sure hope, that at least not all of them are so soaked in this authoritarianistic morality model, that they are ultimately able to climb out of that bog, if they are honest to themselves and sincerely try to answer your question. We shall see.
It is telling how none of those who have tried have come up with anything even remotely concrete. How all of the attempts have been on an abstact metaphysical level of a guessing game. The naïvete is actually really sad, when there are the lives of other people at line.
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Well, Quiner replied that adoption is the answer, and DP is having a good go at it on this post or the other, so we’ll see where the discussion goes …
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Pfff… I am all for adoption. But it is ridiculous to try to solve this problem by first banning the abortion and then after the fact making adoption easier as a solution to the problem they obviously know shall arise from such a ban. We have a proverb here in Finland that fits this sort of “logic” perfectly, it is like trying to climb the tree with your arse end up first.
Of course making adoption easier, like for example to homosexual couples, or any other who for natural reasons can not have children, might take off some of the pressure to abort a pregnancy, but it does not address all the problems and health issues of pregnancies, nor does it simply take away all of it. It certainly does not in any way decrease the number of unwanted pregnancies, like proper sex education does. And I doubt they promote either of those actual solutions to the problem anyway.
I do not see their suggestions about adoption as actual answers to your question, but yet a nother evasion tactics, so that they would not need to really address your point. But maybe something good will come out of it, if they instead of just demands to forbid abortion, would move more to the direction of helping the women with the unwanted kids. However, it is a cruel business where the poor mothers are compelled to give their children to a nother because they themselves can not afford to support their child. This is already an ongoing adoption business scheme and it is not much different from any other forms of human trafficking. Because there is a difference that we should be able to recognize between the zygote, or fetus, that is mere possibility of a future human being and the actual born baby. I wonder how that is such a difficult task for the pro-life people?
Now, having said an unwanted pregnancy is a problem does not mean I think abortion itself is in any way wrong. We would first have to establish on what level it really is wrong. How much of the emotional harm it causes to the actual human beings who are the possible parents is a problem and how is it that such a need to abort pregnancies arises in so many lives. How much of that emotional distress is actually a result of ridiculous metaphysical assumptions of unnatural things like souls magically appearing in the womb, instead of actual cognition and humanity of the unborn late term fetus. And this is where I see religions as especially damaging superstitions and money making pyramid schemes, that we should get rid of, so that we could actually discuss the real issues on a sane level. But my wish is not going to come true anytime soon, so I guess were are forced to reason with the unreasonable…
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It’s all about the right to life.
A woman’s choice to murder her own unborn child is no choice at all.
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A woman’s choice to remove a potential human life from growing within her is indeed a choice. Perhaps every egg has the right to form a life and we should criminalise periods?
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You would have to criminalise menopause and death. Women have far more ova than are ever released into the tubes.
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I guess the safest thing to do would be a full harvest at the earliest opportunity. Might solve all the world’s problems! Only problem would be choosing the sperm to match them up with – so much choice!
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I heard a patriot say it simply: “I fought to defend America. I cannot stomach that the greatest loss of American lives is in the wombs of their mothers. ” What we pro-lifers are going to achieve is babies, our future. It is incalculable what any one life, lived well might achieve. 55 million unwanted babies have been aborted in America alone. It is a horrible tragedy, in light of who these people might be now…
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Thanks for your comment. There are lots of people who don’t exist – think of the infinite number of egg and sperm combination that don’t get the chance to grow any further, think of the equal number of fertilised eggs that only grow for a few weeks or months then naturally abort. The most interesting studies point out that if families are able to plan effectively for the provision of care for their children, everyone is more likely to flourish. By forcing women to give birth at a time they are not ready, you are likely to condemn them to unstable relationships, poverty, and limited opportunity for the kids. The 55 million unwanted potential human beings you are grieving have probably resulted in 100 million planned and stable families. Would you deny families the chance to have kids when they can best provide for them? It seems so.
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Bravo, Miss V. Well said!
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Violet,
People like you believe in studies that support hoaxes like global warming, ObamaCare and Hillary Clinton.
What if another class of person besides women could murder all the people who stood in the way of their prosperity and well-being?
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I don’t support Obamacare …. whatever the hell that is,.and I could not give a monkey’s uncle about Clinton. I am not American, you ignorant ass.
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Ark,
If you don’t know “whatever the hell that is,” how can you tell you don’t support it?
My goodness.
The human race is beset by a herds and flocks of free range morons!
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silenceofmind,
Easy. You stated I did support it.
That is false.
Yes, I have heard the term, but have never investigated its content
.
Therefore, having no knowledge of its content, other than being aware it is some form of medical cover, I am quite correct in saying I do not support it.
My goodness, surely a battery-farmed Christian like you would know this?
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You’re quite on the rampage today SOM. I like the idea of Hillary Clinton being hoax. I can see your point though, it must be an awful thought – women taking control of what grows in their own bodies, and women caring about the consequences for themselves, their potential offspring and the rest of their family. Your (seeming) anger is misplaced. Meditate on what these kind of decisions make for individual women.
Here’s one woman who was denied abortion by people who can’t see past their nose and insist abortion is murder:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/nov/14/savita-halappanavar-medically-unnecessary-death
Here’s another:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/22/italy-death-miscarriage-abortion-doctors-refuse-procedure
And here’s some women that had to do it the hard way but lived to tell the tale:
http://thoughtcatalog.com/lisa-woods/2015/12/9-older-women-share-their-harrowing-back-alley-abortion-stories/
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Violet,
Killing people as a sign of control is the foundation of genocidal thinking.
Women need to control their appetites, not murder their unborn children.
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Women need to control their appetites, not murder their unborn children.
Would you, therefore, consider a rape victim who became pregnant as a result ”unable to control her appetite” or would she be deserving of compassion, understanding and the right to abort the fetus?
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Ark,
The Great Genocide of the Unborn isn’t caused by rape victims.
It’s caused by whoring women who can’t keep it in their pants.
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Well, now, that is most certainly a point pf view.
However, it doesn’t actually answer my question.
Would you extend compassion and understanding to a rape victim who had become pregnant as a result of the rape and wished to abort a fetus?
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Ladies and gentleman…I have read through many of the pros and cons about having an abortion… Man can provide reasons that seem to make sense to himself, for both sides of this argument, which will NEVER be settled where both sides will agree…
For me, as a believer that God is responsible for the fertilization of the egg by the sperm… who are we to decide God was wrong ???
The Bible is clear that man does and never will think like God thinks…
Isaiah 55:8-9… “For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord. 9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts. (NKJV)
I have already conceded that there should be reasons to allow an abortion to be done… In the case where the mother’s life is at stake…and in the case of a rape… Maybe this too should not be allowed in the case of rape…
In the end…every woman that has a abortion, must sit before God, and be responsible for ending what God has begun…
We get married, and just about 100 % of the weddings include scripture that includes God, where it is stated that a marriage is made in heaven; and let no man undo what God has joined together… And yet divorce is as common today as minor surgery…
For me, deciding against abortion is so very simple !!
bruce
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Thank you, Mister Ed. You may now retire to your stable once more.
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Ark,
My objective is for you genociders to extend compassion to the innocent unborn child.
What sense does it make to murder an unborn child who is completely innocent?
It had no involvement in the rape.
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So you would not extend any compassion to the rape victim in allowing her to abort.
Do I presume you would hold to the same standard regarding victims of incestuous rape?
Understood.
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Ark,
Abortion is cold blooded murder, not mercy.
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So you would NOT extend any consideration of compassion toward any victim of rape.
I think we understand SOM.
Even your god would be ashamed of you.
And rightly so.
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Ark,
As I stated before, murdering an unborn child is not mercy.
That being said, the horror wrought at giving birth to a child conceived by rape has to be unimaginable.
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As I stated before, murdering an unborn child is not mercy.
And this is the fork in the road that divides people.
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Ark,
Nevertheless, it still stands that pregnant rape victims are not the cause of the great genocide of the unborn.
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SOM, I’m getting pretty tired of this conspiracy to misrepresent the facts about abortion in order to undermine the choices that women need to make about their own lives. Your Great Push to return women to child-bearing family servant status by using ridiculous terms like ‘murder’ and ‘genocide’ is noted, but I’m sure will not go unpunished in the after-life when the great abortionist and miscarriage fanatic the god God will explain to you the difference between potential human life dependent on fully formed humans for growth, and actual human beings who can suffer pain in the wider world.
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Violet,
The facts are facts.
Because they prove you are a genocidal maniac isn’t my fault.
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I agree that facts are facts. Fact: a fetus has no awareness or capacity for suffering. Fact: a fully developed human woman does. Fact: your Bible is pro-abortion. Draw your own conclusions, religious or otherwise.
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SoM.
That was not the issue.You response merely demonstrates that you are nothing but an ignorant immoral fool.
And I reiterate, your god would be ashamed of you, and rightly so.
You truly are a disgusting individual.
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Ark,
That you the atheist can presume to know how God feels about me has to be another one of your famous hallucinations.
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I do not beleive in gods, yours or anyone else’s.
I would have though even a delusional halfwit like you would have figured this out by now.
And until you can provide verifiable evidence then you are simply making unsubstantiated presumptions about what your god would or would not feel about an uppity little tit like you.
I was referring to the general perception that the character Jesus of Nazareth being someone who would show compassion and understanding, as was demonstrated by the fraudulent interpolation: the Stoning of the Adulteress Woman incident, would hold you in utter contempt.
Your REAL god, the character Yahweh, had no qualms about abortion and even laid out instructions for a specific ritual to enact abortion.
And Yahweh would, in all likelihood have smote your Sanctimonious Arse without a second thought.
And good riddance to that, I say.
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Pingback: Thanks be to… – Coalition of the Brave
A few scientific facts that need to be reviewed in this discussion:
1. Less than 70% of fertilized eggs are able to implant themselves in the uterus
2. Around half of all fertilized eggs die and are lost (aborted) spontaneously, usually before the woman knows she is pregnant.
3. At 4 weeks pregnancy the zygote is the size of a poppy seed.
4. At six weeks, we’re talking the size of a small lentil.
5. At week 8 we’re talking the size of a Lima Bean.
So all this imagery fanatics try to invoke of murder and dismemberment is total rubbish. It’s fraud. We’re not even talking about a bean that has a cerebral cortex which allows it to feel pain. In fact a fetus only feels pain from the 3rd trimester on.
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@Mr.M
An interesting study, concomitant to your claim.
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I’d seen that before and highly recommend it. It’s so beautifully done it parallels John Zande’s book 🙂
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Hey violet, it’s been a while. I certainly don’t speak for all the Yahweh-addled creatures here, but in response to your original question, I think you’ll find a correlation in the industrial age between (1) the legal and social acceptability of destroying human fetuses, (2) the financially & pharmaceutically trackable necessity of drug use to keep modern populations functioning, (3) general lack of social cohesion as evidenced by any half dozen statistics of career or social stability you’d care to reference, and (4) the acceptability of mass social immiseration, whether in the form of endless warfare or tolerated poverty.
The people who resist abortion, even if they rationalize that feeling due to the Invisible Jew in the Clouds, are probably sensing, on some level, how abortion is related to those other negative factors. Are levels of acceptedness of various forms of infanticide the cause of, or the result of, industrial and post-industrial warfare? Or is it simply a coincidence that the sublime legal right to begin growing a human, then terminate it in a detached, professional, guiltless way, is prevalent only in the modern drone state?
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Hi Higharka, I have some hazy recollection that I asked you not to comment here again. Are you not the anti-Semitic conspiracy theorist?
I have no idea what your ramble above is about. Women have been seeking abortions for unwanted pregnancies since well before the ‘modern drone state’. Why are you suggesting a woman would feel guilty? Guilty about planning to have children when she can best provide for them? Guilty of terminating a potential human being that would have been a completely different potential human being if she had had sex five minutes earlier? Guilty about terminating the growth of human life that feels nothing and has no awareness? Maybe a little wistful about all the potential human lives she could have made and never got to meet.
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I found that reply extremely offensive. I have several friends who were born in Palestine and Egypt. In case you are not aware, that is likely to (and in this case, does) mean that they’re Semites, and that their minority group is the primary target of western Judeo-Christian imperialism. It is identity-theft and Othering for you to immediately screech “anti-Semitism” and try to take possession of a cultural term like that when I am advocating for the rights of an ethnic minority.
I thought this was meant to be a safe space against Anglo-Jewish imperialism, particularly when I saw you all agreeing that Trump/Mnuchin/Yellen/Kushner have been conducting an offensive and sexist presidential administration. Instead, I find you pro-Trump? What in the world is going on here?
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Here we go. Please don’t comment here Higharka, I find you offensive and twisted in a way that I can’t be bothered to waste time on. The people who I generally disagree with in Blogland interest me – many of them are clearly well meaning and I enjoy discussing why they believe what they do. Your only way of expressing your vile racism is through weird little games that only you find funny. If you ever want to discuss things in a straightforward manner I might bite, if you ever have a dawning realisation that your views are disgusting I’ll be interested in finding out what on earth led you there, but while you live in a conspiracy bubble you can only express through twisted lenses, I can’t give you space on my internet home. Next comment goes to the spam bin.
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I find you offensive and twisted in a way that I can’t be bothered to waste time on
Well said.
After a painfully, painfully long session with Higharka this is how I ended it with him/her
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Indeed. I can’t hold the threads of all my interactions with her/him but I know they go to a place I’m not comfortable hosting here. I don’t know enough about American racist conspiracy theories to understand where it all comes from. Maybe worth investigating some day.
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I can probably begin to discuss in-depth about the issue of pro-life and pro-choice, but I’d resort to telling everyone to have a good read here first, and let’s see if that would shorten all the lengthy talk that. http://truthzombie.com/2017/06/30/the-interview-with-aborted-baby/
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