the common ground on polarised abortion viewpoints
There has to be some sort of common ground or rational dialog is impossible.
(Silence of Mind)
In a discussion about the polarised corners of thinking on the issue of abortion, blogger Silence of Mind made the characteristically insightful comment above. I believe there is common ground between so-called pro-lifers and pro-choice campaigners, and this is it:
Both sides are concerned about their fellow human beings, and want to see the best outcomes for all involved. Both sides want to see a reduction in the number of women experiencing unwanted pregnancies.
These are startling facts to recognise, as all too often we resort to calling each other misogynists or murderers, and each side has a tendency to characterise the other as being full of evil intent. The truth is, both sides want the same thing – a better world for everyone. So where does the huge divergence occur?
1. Personhood and human rights
Many anti-abortion or pro-life campaigners believe that from the moment of fertilisation, the growing organism in a woman’s body should have full human rights, like any fully developed, unattached human. Many pro-choice campaigners believe that a growing organism in a woman’s body should have no rights, given that it is entirely dependent on its mother’s life-force in order to develop into a human being.
I think the truth is somewhat more complicated. I think we have to recognise that miscarriage before three months (when most abortions take place) is as common as abortion, it’s a natural feature of pregnancy. I think we have to recognise that the baby or fetus has zero capacity for thoughts or feelings when the vast majority of abortions occur. I think we have to recognise that the needs of the fully formed human being (with responsibilities, emotional connections and individual frailties) logically take precedence over any potential human being.
2. Abortion as contraception
Many anti-abortion or pro-life campaigners believe that people are using abortion on a whim. Many pro-choice campaigners believe it’s up to individuals how and when they access abortion.
I think there is truth in both these views. I think we have to work together to promote respect and responsibility when it comes to the consequences of sex. This, in particular, is an area where all sides can work together. We need to look to countries and areas where a difference has been made, learn lessons and make changes.
3. The reality of outlawing abortion
Many anti-abortion or pro-life campaigners believe that outlawing abortion will result in more human beings on the planet. Many pro-choice campaigners believe outlawing abortion will create the unsafe and illegal provision of abortion services.
I think there is truth in both these views. There would be more human beings on the planet: more human beings born into unstable and violent relationships, more human beings born coping with the effects of alcohol and drug addiction from the womb, and more human beings living in poverty. That doesn’t mean these people will be less valuable, but they are likely to require more support. However, conversely there would also be the absence of certain human beings: fewer children born into stable families who have been able to plan to provide the best care possible for their children; and there would be fewer women alive, as the lack of options would result deadly attempts to rid themselves of unwanted pregnancies.
Conclusion
I would love to see a world where everyone who fell pregnant was desperately excited to meet their new little human being and could provide the kind of loving environment that every child deserves. In this respect, I share the hopes and dreams almost every pro-life campaigner. I think from this equal starting point, there is hope for reasonable discussion about we can all improve the lives of our fellow human beings.
An insightful post by a Christian
(Warning; it is a guest post on a blog hosted by John Branyan. If you are unaware who Branyan is just a heads up; he is somewhat of a fundamentalist Christian and anti-abortionist … and can often be as sarcastic and hateful as they come)
That said, the guest, Chris Gursche , is well worth a read.
https://branyancomedy.wordpress.com/2015/08/04/guest-blogger-response-to-demonizing-abortion/
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Thanks, interesting post! Also reminds me how terribly messy the question is in the USA, where people get confused by the payment/profit aspect. It’s easy to see conspiracies where a profit has been made.
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Messy indeed. And this is just how messy or, to be more precise, messed up some people view this topic.
From the above blog host’s rather messed-up offspring.
Abortion is wrong–just like rape. It’s self evident and it should be illegal.
Abortion is wrong–just like rape. Will you join me in telling others the truth?
Abortion is wrong–just like rape. It’s self-evident, and it should be illegal.
Abortion is wrong–just like rape. Will you join me in telling others the truth?
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Yikes, that’s a simple programming message for you. The scariest thing about these messages is the their simplicity and their appeal to our base desire to protect babies. If you don’t analyse it in detail and just go with instinct, I can see why they get such an excitable following. Of course all little tiny babies should be allowed to grow. And then there’s the real life of desperate situations, botched terminations, and seriously unloved children balanced with the science of developmental stages. Life just isn’t that simple.
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Well, you have to realise that she is not a well person. And I mean that. Although, ”well” is a relative term, of course.
She is quite the fan of David Wood.
If you don’t know who he is have fun Googling. His history is … well, revealing and involves bludgeoning his father with a hammer …. because he felt like it. Then he found ‘God’.
Delightful people.
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I just shared the same kind of thought over on your other post on abortion! I think you have characterized it correctly. We DO have a lot in common and spend far too much time calling each other names instead of trying to truly solve the issue. Which makes me think that perhaps, we prefer to argue more than working to reduce abortions. It is certainly easier to argue!
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Absolutely! And both sides do get carried away.
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Yes, Violet Wisp – common ground.
1. Personhood of the unborn, 12 week old human:. You claim they have no thoughts or feelings at that stage, and I invite you to educate yourself. At that stage, these people feel pain. They have brains. Their bodily organs are there. In fact, they even LOOK like babies. It is not okay to justify killing this living human by merely supposing they somehow are just little blobs. You need to know for sure what you are talking about. This
is someone’s life you are taking into your hands.
2. Abortion as Contraception.
It is very rare a mother’s life becomes endangered by her pregnancy. The rest of the time, abortion is purely elective. Some people kill the unborn because they may have ‘defects’. Easy to think of, unless you happen to be the one who is ‘not normal’. If you are honest, you know, and statistics prove, the vast majority are just because they can.
Well over the entire population of CANADA has lost its life to abortion. I am not good at remembering numbers, but they are HUGE. Apparently 1/3 of millenials aren’t here because they were aborted. This concerns ME, at least.
Perhaps the best form of birth control will be to respect your own body and realize the responsibility you are taking when you agree to have sex. We are not mere animals. We are much more. We have an inherent dignity no animal will ever share. If, as the current culture suggests, life is about as much pleasure and self-seeking as you can get, you can see that this is not only degrading to human dignity but also is totally unsustainable and will collapse in on itself and be destroyed.
I’ve got to go for now…Maybe talk later.
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Thanks for your comment. In terms of your claim that a 12 week old fetus can think or feel, could you direct me to your source? In terms of the numbers of humans who weren’t born because of abortion, do you think this means that women don’t go on to conceive when they are actually ready? The numbers are constant in terms of actual births but more children are actually planned for and born into situations where they receive more support. It would concern ME if you wanted to deny these planned children the opportunity to live.
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You believe that only planned children should live? Sorry, that’s a bit much for me.
Why don’t you research fetal development yourself. It’s very easy with Google. I challenge you to say a 12 week old fetus is not a living human being when you have actually seen one. Watch an abortion, too, if you can stand it. Google again. The child goes through excruciating pain – period.
What gives you or any other human the right to decide who lives? It is insanity. If you do your homework, and are open to the facts, they are there.
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“Well over the entire population of CANADA has lost its life to abortion.”
Hyperbole – what would pro-life people do without it?? Polarization, yes indeed.
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Just imagine how much bigger that number is if you count all the children that aren’t born due to masturbation- which is of course “spilling the seed”. In essence mass murder! 😀
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You’re joking, but I think it’s the natural next step for some of the people who hold these views in the extreme. Criminalised periods are a real possibility. I know this because the sense of sentimentality about the baby that wasn’t allowed to grow does really touch me, in the same way that each period I have makes me feel a little sad about the person that didn’t grow. It hits the same illogical chord.
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illogical indeed. The problem with that view is that it’s disconnected from linear reality. Buying a lottery ticket doesn’t equate to a lottery win.
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You and your friends make fun of pro-lifers. You pretend to know what they think and believe, but you don’t have a clue.
Waste your time on being silly. That’s your perogative. If you want to actually understand and be accurate, and know what you are talking about, the truth is out there for you to find.
If the best you can do is make fun of people you don’t understand, using false ideas and even lies and deliberate misunderstandings, because, maybe, then you “fit in”, I feel sorry for you. My friend Violet Wisp is at least curious it seems, and maybe wants common ground and to understand the other side. I think that’s good and is the only reason I answered. Please don’t make fun of others and lie about what you think you know about them. Your conversation above is ridiculous, truly, and insulting to you and your actual intelligence.
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I don’t think Pink got your message here. And I think you missed his serious, historical point.
Also Pink is a historian, and I seem to remember him mentioning that in the Middle Ages it was believed that sperm was a tiny human seed that grew within women, and that actually it was considered as destroying human life to masturbate.
So, while our comments may seem facetious to you, they are based on real beliefs. As I say to another blogger, in reality semen and eggs have as much awareness as a fetus before 24 weeks. Yes, a fetus is a much more developed human, that can move and has some responses, but it doesn’t have the connections required to feel anything or be aware. I think those facts as are important as the full details on abortion procedures – they help women make informed choices.
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A fertilized egg has all the genetics of an individual, irreplaceable, unique human being. Frankly, I don’t care if this individual is able to think or feel, it is human and if he or she is left alone, will further DEVELOP into what we can SEE is obviously human.
The fetus LOOKS human at the stage where most abortions take place.
You don’t need to have a degree in anything to be able to understand that abortion kills human beings.
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Why is it wrong to kill human beings? Is it just so that everyone has a chance to experience life? If that’s the case, then my point about wasted eggs and sperm should mean something to you – we should make every human being we can, so that everyone possible gets to experience life. If it’s wrong to kill human beings because they suffer and the loss of their lives makes other people suffer, then why would this relate to a fetus that can’t suffer in any way at all?
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Would you like to be next to die?
You miss the point entirely.
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I don’t think it’s about me, as a fully developed human being with ties and responsibilities, with hopes for the future, and with the capacity for suffering. It’s more pertinent to ask if I would rather my parents hadn’t had sex the night my life started develop, or asking me if I would rather my mother had had an abortion, or asking if I would rather my parents hadn’t met. The answer to all these questions is the same – I would never have known the difference. And someone else may well have been created on another night of sex. Maybe that person would have saved the world!
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You assume a lot. Your reasoning is faulty. You miss the point.
Please be honest.
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Be honest about what? Again, these are facts, I can’t see what you could object to.
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Be honest about abortion. Be honest about your ACTUAL knowledge of what a fetus feels and thinks. You have no idea, in reality. You just gloss that part over to justify your position. From everything I’ve heard, from first hand accounts, the fetus that is dying feels excruciating pain. Maybe you should check that one out.
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Where do you get your information from? Pro-life publications? Have your ever honestly researched this? The physical structures to feel pain aren’t complete until 26 weeks. Please do read a little (or a lot if you want to have serious conversations):
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1440624/
“The neuroanatomical system for pain can be considered complete by 26 weeks’ gestation
A developed neuroanatomical system is necessary but not sufficient for pain experience
Pain experience requires development of the brain but also requires development of the mind to accommodate the subjectivity of pain”
Link to peer-reviewed sources if you want to attempt to refute any of that. Don’t just assert that fetus feels pains and think that makes it real. Honestly, is this really your level of discussion/knowledge on the topic?
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You’re employing logic now, violetwisp. Forced-birthers rely on pure emotion and imagination to enforce their agendas. She’ll never consider scientific information; it’s contrary to her delusion.
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Carmen, if you can’t be respectful, I won’t respond to you any more. Calling names is just dumb. You are just playing games, and not being real.
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Violet Wisp, I do know that there is a lot of MISINFORMATION out there and studies done with proving a wanted conclusion in mind. Don’t believe everything you read. There are people who have a huge interest in promoting the abortion agenda. People who could care LESS about people or their real needs.
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Just in case you’ve only seen the pro-life mini-baby model lies that are circulated, here is a page that shows you the difference between pro-life propaganda and reality.
It’s still clearly a developing human life form and should give people pause for thought if they think it’s a ‘clump of cells’ at 12 weeks. I always think it’s relevant to the discussions.
http://www.snopes.com/photos/medical/12weekfetus.asp
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Violet Wisp. Snopes is a very poor source of information, one. Two, I have seen actual photographs of children at different stages of development. You are not going to be able to tell me different.
Unfortunately, as I just said in another comment, there are those who have a vested interest in spreading lies to promote abortion and the truth is, these people do not care about you or I or anyone you love.
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That’s hilarious you won’t accept the picture as valid – it was a pro-life blogger who gave me the link! Here’s another one showing much the same thing:
http://liveactionnews.org/stunning-photo-of-noah-miscarried-at-12-weeks-will-amaze-you/
Please link to the any photos you know about that show what you think the reality is. Maybe if I can’t tell you anything different, you’ll accept the pro-life organisation above as accurate?
I live in the UK – our health service is publicly funding so we don’t tend wallow in the profit conspiracies. We do trust health care professionals to be generally caring, highly educated individuals who wouldn’t advocate or participate in abortion if any of your unscientific assertions were true. I’m sorry you think so little of healthcare providers in your country (and have such little understanding about how international scientific consensus works!)
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The photograph? Yup, looked like a baby to me. Much like the models I have seen.
As to the motivations of those who so actively and aggressively promote abortion, their motivation is not MONEY. Oh, yes, abortionists make good money, but that is not what really drives the abortion movement.
Have you heard of the name George Soros? Really, check him out. It makes fascinating reading. He is a billionaire, Jewish Nazi (yes, you read right). He has and is spending vast amounts of money to drive the abortion machine among other ventures to cause harm and chaos.
Please, let me know what you find.
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Okay, I’ll let you know what I found. You make statements with absolutely no reference to sources; dismiss my link, which regardless of how you feel about the website, was completely factual; you suggest that the fake fetus models are similar to an actual fetus, even though the huge disparity is staring you in the face; and then you call George Soros a ‘Jewish Nazi’ when he was between the ages of 9 and 14 in WW2. You clearly live your life with no reference to or understanding of actual facts. Send me some links to where you get your information – I’m intrigued.
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Just google George Soros, dig. If you can’t find anything I’ll help.
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If you have anything sensible to share, please do. I’m not going to dig for right-wing conspiracy theories.
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Your choice, Violet Wisp. Thought you wanted to understand, though.
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I do understand. You’ve presented nothing but vague conspiracies, that’s clearly the level you operate on. Anyone who had actual facts to convey would have laid them out.
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I think you are too stubborn or lazy to do your own research.
I believe I have gone above and beyond answering all your questions or at least trying to. It’s been almost a whole day we’ve spent together. I am carrying on at least two conversations. You can at least Google Soros and see what there is. It’s easy, and I think you would find it really interesting, with respect. Of course, use your own faculties to form opinion, but at least look.
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I googled Soros. He’s a man with way too much money who uses it to interfere in politics.So what? There are lots of them about. I suspect that his main ‘crime’ is not to interfere in ways you support. You obviously have some particular conspiracy in mind – please point to it. He’s been a busy man in his life and you obviously aren’t interested in his opinion on Scottish independence or Brexit, which is the main results I get from over here.
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I think it’s fair to consider the numbers of abortion as lives not lived. And the levels are startling. But, like Pink, I also think that sperm and eggs are a fair comparison in terms of lives not lived – all those humans that never got a chance to grow. Going back to the levels though, I do share the concern of the pro-life campaigners – surely we can find a better way to help people avoid having unwanted pregnancies and seek abortions.
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Violet,
One side wants genocide under the banner of a woman’s “right” to choose.
The other side believes that genocide is not a matter of choice but a grave moral evil.
Concerning:
“Both sides are concerned about their fellow human beings.”
One side believes that legalized genocide works in favor of women who want to kill their unborn child.
The other side believes that the right to life is inalienable and so, it is a grave moral evil for a mother to murder her unborn child.
Where is the common ground shared by those two positions?
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SOM, as I’ve said to you before, if the right to life is alienable then all sperm and eggs must be put to maximum work to generate as many human beings as we can – otherwise we are denying life, aren’t we? Periods are as much a genocide of the unborn as abortions are – both are denying potential human beings the opportunity to develop. And the unused egg has just as much awareness of their loss of opportunity as any fetus before 24 to 28 weeks.
I don’t want to see abortions, you don’t want to see abortions – we have common ground. Let’s work on finding the best ways to help women avoid unwanted pregnancies, by using evidence about what measures are most effective. That seems sensible, doesn’t it?
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Violet,
Neither sperm nor egg possess the sufficient genetic material to be characterized as human.
Further, we know from basic biology what is the function of sperm and egg in all sexually reproducing creatures.
At the moment of conception, sufficient genetic material and biological machinery exist to call the new being, human.
Yours is an opinion that rejects the basic findings of science and basic morality.
You are a barbarian.
Ignorant, murderous and uncivilized.
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“At the moment of conception, sufficient genetic material and biological machinery exist to call the new being, human.” That’s a good point SOM. Obviously the potential for human life is at a more advanced stage and the terminology also changes. The fact that neither the clusters of cells in the zygote or the blastocyst, nor the emerging human formations of the embryo or the fetus have any inkling of awareness or sensation until around 26 to 28 weeks is obviously quite important too in these discussions. Why is it morally wrong to harm or kill another human being? Is it because we don’t want to inflict suffering on others? I’m sure that’s a large part of it, if not all.
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Violet,
Human life begins at the moment of conception.
That is what science teaches us.
Abortion is about convenience, nothing more.
It’s mass murder simply for a woman’s right to choose convenience.
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Violet Wisp. Where did you get the notion that every egg must be fertilized,. Every sperm used? It is, in fact, IMPOSSIBLE. AN egg is not a human being or even a POTENTIAL human being. Neither is a sperm. What on earth? Do you seriously think that having a period is something bad?
It takes one egg (from a human female) + one sperm (from a human male) to join and THEN a human life has been created. We can say this because the human child then has the full complement of chromosomes necessary for it to be a living and unique human being.
One human egg or sperm each have exactly half the genetic makeup to create a human being.
One male + one female = the possibility of a family, and this is what was always intended. Believe it or not, the female body is so designed that she can biologically recognize her husband’s cells after a time. It has always been intended that marriage be between ONE man and ONE woman, and the design works beautifully if properly respected and understood.
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“Where did you get the notion that every egg must be fertilized,. Every sperm used? It is, in fact, IMPOSSIBLE. AN egg is not a human being or even a POTENTIAL human being. ”
My point is to question where pro-lifers get the notion that every fertilised egg has a ‘right’ to grow, given that most of them naturally abort. If you truly believe existence is designed, then abortion is in the very fabric of the design. What’s the difference between a natural abortion and an abortion with medical intervention? To the fetus, absolutely nothing, because they don’t suffer and they have no awareness. It’s accepted in nature, so why not accept it as a sensible choice to improve the quality of life for all involved? Be that to save the mother’s life, be that because someone is in an abusive relationship or for any other reason that the potential child would not be offered the kind of support and love children crave.
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Because NOBODY has the ‘choice’ to kill another human being. You try to talk ‘science’ but have no idea what the fetus ‘thinks’ or feels, in reality.
Of course there are natural abortions. How on earth does that make it okay for anyone to take the life of someone who otherwise would have lived?
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I don’t think I’m ‘trying’ to talk science. It’s hard fact. If you can show me evidence that prior to 16 weeks (or more) the brain of a fetus has any possibility for processing anything I’ll be interested to read it.
The point about natural abortions is that you believe in a thought-out creation where natural abortions are a feature of the ‘design’. Surely you don’t believe your god would have introduced such a thing if stopping the development of any potential human being was such a horror? I mean seriously, what are the numbers, it’s 70% that naturally abortion isn’t it? That’s a lot of unfulfilled potential lives. And you want to think of your god as good, and yet making this, which you claim to find abhorrent, a feature of the design? It’s just a logic question based on your particular beliefs.
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Violet Wisp. Death is a part of life. Even in animals (they don’t abort abort their young). We are more than animals, designed that way, “in the image and likeness of God”.
God is VAST. His understanding, purpose, and, yes, mercy, is something you can only begin to understand – in this life and even the next.
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I’m not sure what you mean by that. Do you agree that abortion is a feature of the design you perceive? It would seem you don’t want to admit it because that would go against your sense that women shouldn’t choose to abort a pregnancy (as the ‘design’ does so often) to avert suffering in their own lives or the lives of their existing family. It simply doesn’t make sense. And I see you’re arguing about what your god in as presented in the Bible, yet beyond telling us we’re wrong, you haven’t even come up with any evidence from that writing that your god would be against it. Why would an abortion ritual feature in Numbers if all pregnancies should continue? ‘Magic’ abortions are okay, natural abortions are okay, but abortion as a safe, medical procedure isn’t? Again, terrible inconsistency.
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You quote the Bible, pretend to understand it, but you don’t even believe in God.
Let me explain God’s design. (Did you read my comment about the fall of Adam and Eve, and the entrance of sin into the world?)
First of all, God is far beyond our tiny comprehension or intellects.
I can see now, this argument is really about the existence of God. Please don’t pretend to refer to the Bible, you neither believe it or understand it, nor do you seem to want to.
God has created all that is. The entire universe – including the earth, the oceans, seas and lands. He created the seasons. It’s all His handiwork. Night and day. A set amount of time in a day and night. The seasons. In fall, the leaves change color and die, and fall off the tree – every year, right on time. Spring brings amazing new growth – every time. It is a cycle. Deliberate. Not at all random.
You may have heard of the law of entropy – the idea that, over time, things spread out, scatter and fall apart, if you will. We can see this. For example, I clean my house every week. I have to. It tends to disarray, and I want it clean and orderly.
So, what about the earth? Creation, if you will. Rather than inevitable disorder and dysfunction, it remains, on the contrary, extremely ORDERLY, regardless of what man tries.
There IS a God. He is in control. We can be so joyful, because He actually CARES for us.
Back to abortion. We can’t play god. We don’t have that right. And believe me, we are not NEARLY intelligent enough.
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I’m sorry but this is where the discussion spins off into your own religious inner world. It’s not longer a discussion about the facts of abortion, and it’s pointless. Would you discuss why eating cows is right or wrong with a Hindu and accept their version of religious ‘reality’? Telling me that natural abortion is beyond my comprehension because you believe in an invisible creator god is like telling me all fertilised eggs should be force-birthed because of the fairies.
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Well, live in your own bubble then. Your choice. I told you what I thought.
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*Up goes violetwisp’s irony metre*. 🙂
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You speak for her, Carmen?
I find her to be more intellectually honest than you. Please speak for yourself.
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Oh, I have been! Trouble is, your blinders and earmuffs are permanently in place. 🙂
But look, you can imagine that your sermon on this thread has made jesus smile. … and that it’s been written down in that big book.
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Done with you Carmen.
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Silence of mind. What gives you the right to call people things like that? I am shocked and disgusted. If you think for a moment that YOU are better than anyone else, you are sadly mistaken. We are all just human; and that is the point. None of us are perfect and WE need God, not the other way around. God is God and we are not.
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Heart,
If I called King Herod a genocidal barbarian for murdering all those children in Bethlehem would you still accuse me of being judgmental?
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I would call you stupid. If you have EVER been shown mercy, be merciful. This is the message of the gospel.
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Always entertaining when Ark gets tuned in by a Bible thumper. . Warms the cockles, eh? Ark, for Jesus’ sake, read Yahweh’s word correctly! 😉
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Really. I don’t know who ‘educated’ you, but I can make some guesses.
My faith is all about The Truth. I try to speak the truth, admit the truth – especially to myself, and find the truth where it can be found.
Maybe you titter behind your hands because I said I call the guy stupid? It just shows how you don’t understand anything about the Christian Faith. We are NOT called to be doormats or pushovers “for the sake of the gospel!”. Far from it. We are called to be REAL. I told the guy the truth. NO! I am not judging him! I am judging HIS THINKING, and that is a very reasonable thing to do, even necessary. If we don’t judge behaviours and messages people put out, FOR OURSELVES, HONESTLY, then we make ourselves fools. We have brains and should use them. We have tongues to speak the truth, because the truth is GOOD, always, and leads to all kinds of healing.
I call you stupid was a kind thing to say. It was the truth, and in its directness, may cause the guy to think again.
People are good. Sometimes their behaviours are not. It is those I judge, and I should.
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“We make ourselves fools”. Yes, indeed you have.
Ark doesn’t need a lesson in thinking; his ability to recognize utter nonsense is legend. Yours, however, needs some work. Perhaps you really should use that brain of your own instead of parroting fundamentalist pap.
Oh, and Yahweh is the most prolific of abortionists, according to your own beliefs.
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So who told you that? About this Yahweh that you claim to understand.
I parrot nothing. My knowledge has been gained through prayer and personal study. I, too, am an intellectual.
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Umm, hearttoheart – that is basic knowledge of the bible (you know, the book of tales written BY men, FOR men). The name of the god in there is Yahweh. Honestly, have you READ it? Like, from cover to cover? If you have, you might consider the logical conclusion – atheism. It’s one of the reasons I’m one.
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You have “read” the Bible, cover to cover? Which version?
My version, and I’m picky, doesn’t talk about Yahweh or focus on that name at the very least.
Also, the Bible is not a “book” to be just read. It is God’s inspired Word, written by people, through the light of the Holy Spirit.
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Heart,
How stupid is someone who calls someone stupid for doing something and then proceeds to do that very same something?
1. Just plain stupid
2. Very stupid
3. Stupid like a troll, stupid
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I am more subtle. I certainly don’t claim he’s stupid, I don’t know him. What he said was very stupid. That is what I was talking about.
Please don’t split hairs and say I ought to have been much more precise at the time. People have such fragile egos nowadays. They want you to be so “correct” so nobody is ever offended. Quite frankly, I found his ideas offensive and thought I did him a service by telling him so.
I am not into random name-calling, like some, who think that to win an argument they need to attack someone personally for the sake of belittling them. Obviously that was not my intent. I don’t play those games.
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Heart,
You are about as subtle as a loud juicy fart in a space suit.
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LMAO!
Point taken, silenceofmind. Are you stupid? I wonder.
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Violet Wisp. Where did you get the notion that every egg must be fertilized,. Every sperm used? It is, in fact, IMPOSSIBLE. AN egg is not a human being or even a POTENTIAL human being. Neither is a sperm. What on earth? Do you seriously think that having a period is something bad?
It takes one egg (from a human female) + one sperm (from a human male) to join and THEN a human life has been created. We can say this because the human child then has the full complement of chromosomes necessary for it to be a living and unique human being.
One human egg or sperm each have exactly half the genetic makeup to create a human being.
One male + one female = the possibility of a family, and this is what was always intended. Believe it or not, the female body is so designed that she can biologically recognize her husband’s cells after a time. It has always been intended that marriage be between ONE man and ONE woman, and the design works beautifully if properly respected and understood.
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I read recently this is where the term “feminazi” comes from: now it just means “feminist I don’t like” but in Rush Limbaugh’s original coining, feminists are responsible for a new Holocaust of aborted children, because they support abortion.
We like to argue, we like to encourage our own side, campaign, make elected representatives notice, and hone our rhetoric; we don’t want to persuade, necessarily; we might feel better about ourselves by calling the other side idiots. It’s fun. It does not really matter- no-one on my facebook feed is going to be nominated as US Supreme Court judge, and few are going to need abortions. For a lot of people it is a cost-free way of virtue signalling or ingroup signalling. Just commuting, people build up a deal of suppressed anger, and having a vent for it is a good thing.
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I like to argue. But I’m discovering through this blogging lark that I get more out of trying to understand where the other side is coming from. Interesting (in a horrible way) about the feminazi thing.
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Here you go, violet wisp. First trimester abortion. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5THDmys8z30
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Thanks for the link, it’s an interesting video, and interesting to hear the story from the doctor. I think we live in an age where we are too easily removed from reality – there’s a tendency to just accept things without investigating them or truly understanding. I think it’s important that people have all the facts before they make decisions and I personally see nothing wrong with this video. What I do object to are the fake models that pro-lifers circulate and the misinformation about development stages.
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I don’t know about the fake models or misinformation on our side. I do know that pregnant women are actively lied to at Planned Parenthood, for example, and told the child is a mere clump of cells. They want your money, if you want the truth. It’s an industry, make no mistake.
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You want Planned Parenthood’s take? They describe abortion procedures here. You kind of have to ‘read between the lines’ to understand just how gruesome these things are that they casually list off (my opinion). For example, check out the third trimester abortion procedures – notice the one where they mention crushing the baby’s skull. 😳 http://americanpregnancy.org/unplanned-pregnancy/abortion-procedures/
How can a child be ‘unplanned’? The Creator makes no mistakes. It is people who can be idiots. Fortunately, God always has a plan for good.
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Surely the more sensible way to approach this is to strive for a method of contraception and its distribution that will allow sexually active people, married or not, to take full control?
This will, of course, include much more comprehensive sex education at all levels.
I have no stats at hand ( maybe an ardent Googlist can oblige?) but it would seem wise to find out:
a)which country has the lowest rate of abortion, and is it lowering all the time?
b) How have they achieved this?
c) Take note of their methods and find a way of implementing them into one’s own culture/society.
Outlawing abortion has never prevented abortion, any more than hitting someone over the head with a hammer will cure a headache.
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“Surely the more sensible way to approach this is to strive for a method of contraception and its distribution that will allow sexually active people, married or not, to take full control?”
I agree with you that this is the most sensible way. The reason many of my friends in the pro-life movement are against this approach is because it promotes sex outside of marriage, which is seriously frowned upon in principal but not practically. At first glance, the argument makes sense: encourage people to have sex, more people will get pregnant = more abortions. So that is bad. But this fails to grasp the concept that even church kids are having sex all the time!
If the pro-life movement could embrace abstinence as one method of birth control, and also begin to promote contraception for those who choose to have sex before they get married (which is 90% of everyone!) abortions would go down.
I ask my church friends “Which is worse: having sex before you get married of having an abortion?” The answer is ALWAYS “abortion”.
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Phew! At last, someone who is a ”Crispyan” 😉 who I can find a margin of common ground!
Would you like to meet the other sort? In particular, the young woman responsible for the somewhat vitriolic quote I posted above?
Her dad, a rather forthright chap, is a real Peach!
I would love to watch on the sidelines while you and Monsieur John Branyan had a tête-à-tête over this issue. And I am sure you would be a bizillion times more familiar from the Christian perspective than I ever could.
Here’s his latest post on this particular topic.
https://branyancomedy.wordpress.com/2017/01/28/pro-life-anti-sex/
I am sure you will get on like a house on fire.
I just get concerned I don’t auto-da-fé when I visit!
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I checked out the post. It didn’t make any sense to me either!
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Ah, well, that’s his style.
I suspect he allowed the chap Chris to guest a post merely so he could tear into it with a fundamentalist dogmatic approach.
He is another,like his daughter, that wants it declared illegal, first and foremost.
They are heavy on the morality aspect of pretty much every topic.
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On the pro-life side of the argument, we have made our goal overturning Roe v Wade. Violet asked what the end game is for pro-life people and that really is it. Because of that the pro-choice side of the debate reacts with ferocity to anything that looks like it might weaken RvW. We are so busy fighting each other over this losing battle of making it illegal. What if both sides could come together over the common ground of reducing abortions?
Most pro-choice people I know personally want abortion to become rare. Safe, but rare. Most pro-life people want abortion to become extremely rare. Rare vs extremely rare, that is pretty close to common ground.
Those who make a living providing abortions are probably the only ones that want to see abortion NOT become rare.
We can’t come together on this issue because both sides fear the other side and are utterly entrenched in their positions. It seems clear to me that if you want abortion to become extremely rare, you either have to castrate all males at puberty or you have to come up with an effective way or preventing pregnancy other than simply saying “don’t have sex.”
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Switzerland has one of the lowest per capita abortion rates in the world – around 6.8 per thousand ( 2012 figures)
The US has 16 per thousand.
The debate still rages even in Switzerland, but at least they are doing something right …
Oh, and in Switzerland,( if I read correctly) the morning after pill accounts for a higher percentage of terminated pregnancies than visits to clinics.
I stand under correction.
An example to follow perhaps?
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An example to follow? I don’t know what they are doing, but it seem wise to look at what other countries, who are doing a better job are doing in this area. The rate of South Africa is even lower at 2.7 per thousand.
Interestingly, it seems that one of the reasons abortion is so low in S. Africa has nothing to do with the law (it is legal there). It has more to do with how the culture views abortion.
According to a 2006 study 56% of South Africans believe abortion is always wrong even if there is a strong chance that the baby will have serious birth defects. A total of 70% believe it is wrong if abortion is done simply because the parents have low income and feel that they cannot afford to care for additional children.
It is not the law that reduces abortion, it is the changing of people’s opinion about it that lowers the number. I think that is what we are actually seeing here where I live in the US. Abortions ARE decreasing and it is precisely because personal views on it are changing, not because we have overturned a law.
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I think in the USA providing a decent maternity leave law could make a big difference. It must be terrifying for young, low income women becoming pregnant, especially if they’re not in a stable relationship. At least in most of Europe we have 6 months to a year or even two years paid maternity leave, and then subsidised childcare. State support for families is crucial – but again we often find that pro-life campaigners object to this … and universal access to shared healthcare. It’s kind of mind boggling at times.
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It does make sense to me that paid maternity leave WOULD help reduce abortions. However, I think resistance to that is more a fiscal thing than it is a pro-life thing. Fiscal conservatives are not all pro-life, believe me! I know a ton of fiscal conservatives who are social moderates. Many have a problem with it because it puts a burden on small businesses, which leads to lower employment which leads to…….and on and on it goes.
That may be changing though. President Trump, who HAS been doing what he said he would do in the campaign (like it or not), did promise to get 6 weeks of paid maternity leave for working mothers and that is at least a start. http://bit.ly/2keUkkj
As a person who runs several small business I wonder how on earth I would be able to afford to pay someone not to work for 6 months to a year AND hire someone to take their place. Admittedly, I have not really thought this through, and I bet there are good suggestions on how to do exactly that.
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That’s really depressing. It’s such a welcome part of life here, I can’t imagine being part of a culture where it’s feared. Or where there’s a glimmer of ‘hope’ that women could get six weeks. Six weeks!! Honestly, poor babies, poor women. It’s shocking beyond belief. Thanks for drawing it to my attention.
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I have a better idea. Maybe people need to be more responsible for what the ‘choose’ to do.
“Outlawing abortion has never prevented abortion, any more than hitting someone over the head with a hammer will cure a headache.”
I ask you, when has this outlawing ever been done? You, so gruesomely compare it to hitting someone over the head with a hammer. Are you aware of what happens during EVERY single abortion? Do you have any idea?
You seem to think we are merely anti-abortion. The powers that be in the abortion movement have claimed that and that is, knowingly falsely, they choose to refer to us.
The TRUTH is, we are Pro-Life. Meaning we embrace life and believe that it is never another person’s ‘choice’ to end another human life.
“A person is a person, no matter how small.”. Dr. Suess said that. We agree
As to birth control: maybe control is the absolute key. Like having some control over your impulses. Like realizing that standard birth control (the pill), has been very Degrading to women. Please read on, I know what I’m talking about.
Women today are, so sadly and disgustingly portrayed at the Women’s March, A BUNCH OF VAGINAS. Literally. I know some have some dignity left, but this is where the “woman’s movement” is leading you.
I am sure you see that your vagina is, in fact, only part of you. Other parts of you, beyond your sexuality, is your womb (unique to women and designed to foster life), you have a brain – you need to use it – to think for yourself, you have arms to hold, show love, nurture (this is something women are Good at – it’s how we function). Women tend to have beauty in some form. This may be in their female form, their female faces, their feminine hearts.
Birth control, many of us can see, have done it. Women no longer have respect, even for themselves. They are mere, living vaginas.
The fact is, sex is not some ultimate expression of independence or even pleasure. Women, if you understand them, want A man to love them, to respect them, AND to marry them. It has been the feminine role through the centuries to strengthen the man, build him up, and hold him to his commitment. Families, mother, father and children have been the NORM for centuries and it is really good. Even if we WERE animals, it makes a lot of natural sense.
More recently, people don’t even seem to be able to accept what sex they were born with! Society is hurtling itself to its own self-destruction, can’t you see?
I believe, and I don’t care what your religion actually is, I believe that society (under attack and active seduction by Satan), is being led to reject God. THAT is the crux of the problem, my opinion. We want to be our OWN gods, and look at the mess.
By they way, regarding contraception, we support Natural Family Planning. Which means taking responsibility for sexual activity, always knowing that reproduction is a possibility with sex, depending on the woman’s fertility at the time.
The pill can actually cause an abortion (read a death), if a child happens to be conceived.
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I have to say, using the Christian faith as an argument against abortion never really makes sense.
For example, if you believe he creates a human being every time an egg and a sperm unite, you also believe that he is responsible for killing the vast majority of these unique people who never get a chance to grow an arm or an ear, nevermind see the light of day. Because two-thirds of fertilised eggs fail to develop. And then we have the one in five known pregnancies that miscarry before 20 weeks. In the context of faith, the very ‘design’ you believe in shows little concern for the unborn child.
If you believe the Word of your god is eternally unchanging and captured in the Holy Bible, you will know that for whole groups of people he cares as little for the lives of actual children as for those unborn: “The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open.” (Hosea 13:16) You will also be aware that if you fail to follow his moral standards, your Christian god would want you to have an abortion: “But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curse among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.” “‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.”” (Numbers 5:20-22)
All in all, you can talk about special plans all you want, but nothing about what you see as creation (existence), or the guidance you have from your god in the form of the Bible actually supports opposition to abortion.
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Good analysis, Violetwisp. Put in barest terms, God is the most prolific abortionist.
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Well, if any kind of creator god existed, it certainly ensured that aborted pregnancies are a feature of nature, which would suggest they are quite acceptable. Unless the written guidance states the opposite. Which it doesn’t.
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Glad you mentioned this Violet Wisp.
First of all, I’ll deal with the “quotes” from the Bible. You certainly quote some parts of some versions of the Bible. Unfortunately you do so without UNDERSTANDING – a gift of the Holy Spirit. Quite simply, the Bible doesn’t work like you tried to use it. It is not a mere document. It is God’s living Word. If you WANT to understand, you may be given the grace. You have to ask God for that.
Yup. People live, people die. People are conceived, and at that point are destined to live forever. We live on earth for a time, but are destined for eternity. Even Satan will tell you that. (He also very much admits there is a God. Satan hates God, and he hates everyone and everything else too.)
God is Wise. He is Wisdom itself. He knows what He is doing and, whether You like it or not, He is in control.
You may think of Him as the most loving of Fathers, because that is what He is.
If you are interested in the Bible, I invite you read the beginning. It tells about Creation, probably not literally. You can read about Adam and Eve, the Garden of Eden, and, most especially, read about THE FALL OF MAN. This explains a lot about our current predicament.
If you want to know about God’s Love for ALL of mankind, ask for light, and check out the Psalms. Try to be open. You could be surprised.
The devil (Satan, who some people actually worship), wants you to dislike God, be scared of Him, and think He means you harm. The truth is He is a Loving Father who just adores you, wants to be reconciled with you (confess to Him your mistakes), and let Him love you – a Love like you will never find anywhere else – and it is PERSONAL.
🙂
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Wrong.Dead wrong in fact.
Apart from the fact he is, like all the other gods, simply a make-beleive deity, Yahweh, as portrayed in the Old Testament is an absolute em>Monster on every single front.
He enacted global genocide, he commanded genocide. Through his ”prophets” he laid out rules for animal and human sacrifice,slavery, rape, misogyny, execution for homosexuality.
He stood aside during episodes of incest. He commanded, murder,… and a whole host(sic) of punishment, including Death by Bear.
Yahweh even has a specific ritual for abortion.
And even though you probably truly beleive you are the ”right sort” of Christian you have no guarantee Yahweh will not send you to burn in Hell for eternity, no guarantee whatsoever.
So you are either willfully ignorant of the bible and the god you worship or have been so thoroughly indoctrinated, you are completely blind to reality.
I reiterate, the biblical god you worship, Yahweh, is a psychopathic heinous monster,
But … phew! Rest easy. Thank all the gods Yahweh is simply a work of fiction.
Have a marvelous Sunday. Praise the gods, right?
😉
Ark.
.
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Ark. Who taught you this? Because I know someone had to have done.
I know God (and He is never called Yahweh by me or in my Bible), and I realize that YOU have been indoctrinated with a false understanding of your Creator.
Your description of God is so hateful and warped that it could only have come from the devil – who hates God, hates you, and hates all of creation. His only purpose is to destroy, and he will destroy you if you let him.
There is one God. Old Testament, New Testament, same God.
Trust me, Ark., you have it all wrong and someone has sold you a bill of goods, so sadly. God is loving and good. I know this personally. Life is beautiful, designed to be lived with joy. And every human person is a deliberate creation of God, out of His Love, and He makes NO mistakes.
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Are you serious?
I so tire of delusional religious …sorry… fools.
Individuals who have been corrupted to the point they cannot discern reality.
You have either never read the bible or you are mentally unstable from indoctrination..
I truly cannot think of a middle ground.
You need professional medical help.
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Oh Ark. All you can do is attack me personally? Really? Or is it projection?
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Ah… and now we get to the heart of the matter.
If your god is not Yahweh what is his name?
If Yahweh is not in the Old Testament what is the name of the god of the OT?
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Dear Ark. I am NOT responsible for the misinformation you have been given.
I have told you what I know.
Were you raised Jehovah’s Witness? It is a cult, and based in truth.
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Tell me the name you were told for the god of the Old Testament please.
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I believe in one God. I call Him God. There are three persons in the One God. Mostly God the Father, I believe, is respresented in the Old Testament.
Now tell me how you came to be so hung-up about this Yahweh.
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You mean you imagine your own god, out of the thousands other people have imagined.
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You know what, Carmen? I am sincerely am sorry for you. No. I do not mean imagine. I mean I KNOW Him, beyond the shadow of a doubt.
Do you believe in evil? Like the devil? Satanists are not atheists. They, too, KNOW God exists.
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You know what hearttoheart? I think you are delusional. No, I KNOW it. Keep writing, it’s more clear every comment. Do you imagine fairies, too? Got an imaginary pet? 😉
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Oh Carmen. Don’t be silly.
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*Irony metre engaged*
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Hung up?
Good grief.
Have you never read the Old Testament?
God the father is Yahweh.
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Sorry Ark. You seem to be exactly that, hung-up.
What version of the Bible are you referring to?
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I grew up with the KJV, but I have a few other versions.
What’s your particular flavour?
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What faith did you grow up in?
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Yahweh
ˈjɑːweɪ/
noun
a form of the Hebrew name of God used in the Bible. The name came to be regarded by Jews ( c. 300 BC) as too sacred to be spoken, and the vowel sounds are uncertain.
I grew up C of E.
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Church of England. And you left because?
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I never considered I was part of.
I simply evolved away.
And then I began to study religion – as part of some background research I was doing for a fantasy novel – and that was when I realised how corrupt and vile Christianity truly is.
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How old were you then? What were your sources? Are you aware that religion, of itself means nothing?
See, you CAN criticize men all you want, and may even be right. Faith doesn’t worship men. It worships God.
That makes all the difference.
If you are open to study GOD, to look for Him, honestly, even on your OWN, you will find Him. He wants to be found, that’s why.
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Heartto heart, I think Ark and Violet give a pretty good description of a side of the God of the Bible that we often don’t consider. Certainly not perfect, pushing the envelope a bit, leaving some important stuff out, but surely God did command his people to do many of those things that Ark and Violet accuse God of. For Pete’s sake, they use the Bible itself to make their case!
Rather than try and say it is not true, I think Christ followers like you and I should own it. I don’t think these facts disprove the existence of God at all, but they surely calls into question the kind of God this being is.
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Jim, I don’t think they call into question God’s nature, so much as the Bible’s. It is a record of human attempts to understand God, rather than something dictated by God. It is not internally consistent.
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Hi Clare!
That is certainly one way of solving the issue, but I don’t think Hearttoheart would agree with that view. That would be saying that the Bible contains errors which is a big leap for many.
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Ark. Who taught you this stuff? It is so venomous and almost willfully wrong. Truly, it is like you have been indoctrinated by Satan himself. And I can see how unhappy and bitter you are.
I know God. In my Bible, He is never called Yahweh, for one. I know Him personally – a loving Creator who cares about us. He is one God – same in the New Testament as the Old. I searched for Him myself and found Him – He is there to be found.
I wonder what your background is. Where you have come from. Where you taught about a hateful God in your youth. Did you experience a loving father in your life? Maybe you never stood a chance.
Well, here and now, I can tell you the some fathers love their children, especially God the Father. This is how it is SUPPOSED to be. Life is a beautiful gift from God. Every leaf on every tree is His creation. He IS love. That is in the Bible. He is far bigger and more glorious than anything you can imagine. And He loves YOU, personally, and calls you by name.
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Smile. For the gods’ sake why to fundamentalists who are so blindly ignorant of their religion, including history, archaeology, exegeses and hermeneutics, immediately consider an atheist who tells them their god is an egotistical, capricious murdering son of a bitch must have had a rough upbringing with a dad who beat them or a member of the clergy who abused them or some other horror story?
And they almost always eventually ask: ”Why do you hate God?”
It truly baffles me.
My upbringing was stable, loving and included a small amount of church and Sunday School. I even got my first KJV for passing an ”exam” at nine years old.
I never read it until I was around forty!
People like you never seem to consider that you have been indoctrinated, largely because you are never encouraged to read outside the extremely narrow parameters that are grilled into you from a young age.
You are brought up to believe you are unworthy, a sinner and will perish in hell if you are not saved.
I am surprised you haven’t mentioned dinosaurs and humans coexisting yet and that Noah’s Flood was real.
I really really hope that you don’t!
As an exercise, think of any vile crime or moral outrage, any, and I can pretty much guarantee you will find it in the bible; either committed by Yahweh( God, Jehovah, Lord) or sanctioned by him …. … oops sorry Him.
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Okay Ark. You have me pegged as a fundamentalist? No, I am not.
You didn’t consider “religion” until you were 40? I’ve spent my life THINKING about it.
You think I’m cowering and wallowing in guilt, terrified your meaney Yahweh will through me in hell? Wrong again.
Maybe now YOU can wonder what other mistakes you have made in your assessments of religion and God?
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*Smile*
Our home was very laissez faire regarding religion.
If you have spent you life ”THINKING” and have done no research to date then it seems you have simply wasted (bided?) your time and accepted what has been foisted upon you.
Your sin and the dire need for salvation. Such things are gross.
But it is never too late to start.
I mentioned I began with Moses.
Once I discovered he was a fictional character I read the bible – cover to cover.
And from there on I realised it was simply all nonsense.
Since then I have researched much of its history, etymology archaeology etc etc.
This is something few Christians ever undertake – not that I have read anything like up to scholarly level, but every time point is raised I go back and dig up history books or these days the internet) and read up.
Just today, in fact, I brushed over Charlamagne and how because of his desire to convert pagans started the Saxon Wars and at one point executed 4500 people as an act of revenge.
My friend John Zande, has undertaken a two year plus personal dialogue with over a hundred Rabbis, profressors and Israeli archaeologists, with regard the current state of belief among Jews. Fascinating. And practically every one has acknowledged that the Exodus for example is simply a work of geopolitical fiction.
But if you don’t know anything about the history of your religion and its characters then you really have no right to ”preach it” and make the statements and proclamations that you ( and most Christians and other religious believers) tend to do.
Once you are prepared to simply ask
”Maybe I have been simply brought up to beleive because of culture and indoctrination?” you have opened the door to a completely different possibility.
Consider it a reboot for the mind.
🙂
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Ark. You assume I have never studied? wrong again.
What I was trying to get across is that I was a critical student. I actually digested what I read. Thought about it from every angle. Prayed – yes, I was open to that. I realized that you can’t believe everything people say, you have to form your own opinions, use what you have. My goal throughout my life has been to find THE TRUTH. That alone is what drove me.
You know nothing about my life, you assume. You are wrong. I actively sought the truth, and FOUND it for myself. You may respond with all sorts of little doubts and criticisms, but it YOU haven’t tried it, don’t knock it.
It very likely you had some bad information from the start and were misled. Did you know the devil is called the Prince of Lies? Believe me, he hates everyone and wants nothing more than to fool us. It is easy to be fooled.
IF you want the truth, ask God. He will send proof.
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The second you veer off into religo- speak I know you have little of substance to add to our dialogue.
You have not referenced a single thing I wrote in my last reply which suggests you are not in the least interested in why I wrote it or you simply didn’t understand -and that suggests indoctrination – you quickly compartmentalize and fall back on dogma so as to avoid confronting the things that irritate your mind.
You presume I have bad info. Based upon what?
I have spent several years researching and studying and a large part of this has been Christian material.
So let me be direct.
The character Moses is generally considered a myth or a complete work of fiction.
At one point, Martin Noth considered he was a composite figure, an amalgamation of several Israelite hero characters, but this, too, is now rejected.
The overwhelming consensus states that the Exodus is simply a work of geopolitical fiction.
It did not happen.
If you have anything to challenge this consensus based on archaeological and scientific grounds I am more than willing to discuss it.
Let’s chat like two adults, shall we?
Your call.
Thanks (apologies) to Violet for allowing us to ”hijack” the thread
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Fine Ark. Yes, apologies Violet Wisp.
You state that Moses was fictional. You cite supposed common knowledge by experts.
I admit I have little time or patience for this sort of thing. I am not prepared to argue these ideas you seem to have accepted as being fact, it’s that simple.
I am not going to waste my time and energy, and I am, frankly, not interested in these so-called experts. Because I KNOW what I am talking about. Further, I don’t feel the need to dissect the Bible. By no means am I a Bible Scholar, but I do have UNDERSTANDING, of what it is, and how it is INTENDED to be used. I am not at all prepared to dispute with you whether Moses was real or not. I believe he is.
The Bible is a library, really, is how it has been explained to me. There are all sorts of literary devices used in different books. You don’t just read it like a book, and critique it as such. It is the inspired Word of God. That is how it is to be taken. If you don’t believe, you really have no business commenting at all, or at least pretending your ideas are to be take as credible.
No, believe it or not, the Bible is God SPEAKING directly to the reader, different things even, on different days, same passage. Because God speaks to your heart. IF, you venture to even WANT to believe, He will teach you. It is mystical. Deep. Amazing. and He knows you by name.
In other words, I have told you what I think, what I believe. That is about all there is to say. I am not getting bogged down in your ideas. It is simplicity itself.
If you want the Truth, be open to it and be honest. Thank GOODNESS the so-called wisdom of men is NOT all there is.
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Well …. there we have it.
Indoctrination to a T.
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Sorry to disappoint, Ark. I could say the same thing, and tried to.
I also said, maybe you could go to the Source (God Himself).
That’s the best I can do. I know it worked for me.
Thanks for debating. I certainly wish you well.
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You refuse to accept that Moses did not exist or that the Exodus is simply a work of geopolitical fiction based on scientific evidence and yet you refuse to even discuss it and are adamant you are not indoctrinated?
What on earth are you afraid of then?
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Ark, I am not afraid, just not interested. You say it’s scientifically proven, I say, really?
See, you may think that belonging to the Church is due to blind indoctrination. You are wrong again. God IS the source of all wisdom. If you choose to use your unbiased REASON, you will find God. He makes perfect sense. It is mankind who are a little on the dumb side.
I have heard of all sorts of theories and ideas like what you are trying to get me to discuss. People, MERE people, don’t impress me. They can and have come up with the most outlandish ideas throughout all time.
God impresses me – more and more – as I get to know Him – yes, personally!
Check out the lives of the saints, if you like. If you don’t know already, I am Roman Catholic. These people knew God personally. Their lives were amazing and they worked miracles, by the grace of God.
I know, please check out St. Pio, once known as Padre Pio. He was still alive in the 1950’s. He was known to bi-locate, he could read people’s hearts, he had the Stigmata, even. His life was profoundly lived and he loved people. There were so many who were miraculously assisted, both before and after his death. Well, if you are interested, it’s quite something to take in.
Now, I know this is somewhat rude, as I am refusing to entertain your assertion that Moses was fiction and this has been scientifically proven. Okay. Quite simply, what gives you this notion and what is the “proof”.
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If you are refusing to entertain the assertion concerning Moses then you aren’t interested, and consequently there s no need for further dialogue.
Go and do research.
Oh, and before you go, what made you became a born-again Christian?
Because you sure as hell are NOT a practicing Catholic.
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Goodness sakes, Ark.
I asked for this proof that Moses never existed…
You don’t believe I am a practicing Catholic? May I ask why? (I am, in fact.)
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Proof is generally reserved for mathematics.
I wrote that the consensus is that, based on evidence Moses is a did not exist and the Exodus is a work of geopolitical fiction.
Look up William Dever and/or Israel Finkelstein.
You can read them or watch any of their videos on line.
Let me know how you get on.
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Touche.
In a nutshell, spare me, WHAT EVIDENCE? Or is that too complex to articulate?
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Ah .. so in fact you are not interested in doing any research.
This tangent has already hijacked Violet’s post as it is.
If you have never heard of the archaeologists William Dever or Israel Finkelstein and are simply too damned lazy to type their names in the Google search bar then your petulant little Touche quip is not going to cut any ice around here, of this you can be assured.
Stay ignorant. Your loss.
You just make more fodder to be laughed at.
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Oh brother.
Okay. I will research William Dever and Israel Finkelstein, see what I find.
Hopefully YOU will simply consider all I have talked about today. I’ve tried very hard to lay it all out, and it comes from my own understanding. I am not just spouting off. This is what I believe and why.
Thanks my friend. I’ll be in touch.
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Sorry,Your Catholic question.
Because most modern Catholics these days appear to have moved away from the dogmatic literalist approach you seem to be applying to the biblical text.
Ray Brown was a good example of a more even handed open approach.
Your rhetoric is more akin to a born again fundamentalist.
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Arkenaten, I have no idea where you get your ideas. This one is false as well. Oh, please don’t presume you know anything at all about reality in the Catholic Church. Your head seems to be in some esoteric cloud, lost in false premises and thus faulty conclusions, in the company of, frankly, individuals of questionable motivations. (quite the little sentence..).
Anyways, I have NEVER before heard of your experts or their assertions. You have false information.
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My wife is Catholic and I was married in the Catholic Cathedral in Johannesburg, by the late Father Peter Daugherty.
My kids went to Marist Brothers and I was present when my godson was
baptized.
Hows that qualify?
And if you have never heard of Father Raymond E Brown then you probably aren’t Catholic.
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I am Canadian.
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And the relevance?
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Never heard of him.
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So what?
The Pope’s not Canadian either. Have you heard of him?
Google Raymond E Brown.,
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Is he someone important? To whom?
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Tell me, are you being dense on purpose?
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I am telling you that I don’t think he’s so important as you think.
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Ark, it’s time you put that imagination of yours in high gear! . . . smh. . . and she just has to be Canadian. 😦
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Here is an excellent post by John Zande that should answer pretty much all you Finkelstein / Dever questions … and much more.
There aren’t too many difficult parts.
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Okay. Here’s what is key, all that I could find to show how they back up their assertions:
“The fact is that not one shred of direct archaeological evidence has been found for Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob or the 400-plus years the children of Israel sojourned in Egypt. The same is true for their miraculous exodus from slavery.”
So, it never happened because they couldn’t prove it did?
Does that make rational sense to you?
I am trying to understand. But I don’t.
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I did say go and read something …. try a book ,or if you haven’t the inclination watch a YouTube video of Finkelstein.
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Ok. Raymond E. Brown. So what? You think he had some great impact on the Catholic Church? Nope. Seriously, NEVER HEARD OF Him or his ideas. Quite irrelevant to anything I am interested in.
The Catholic Church has been around for over 2000 years. There is such beauty and richness of its teachings, traditions, and Sacred Scripture (the Bible was original to Catholics). You want to explore FAITH by disbelieving, by trying to disprove what you don’t believe, by thinking you are able scientifically, archaeologically, to explain the mysteries of time, if the Bible, which, I tell you again, is no mere book, but Divinely Inspired?
If you WONT believe, if you don’t even WANT to, I can guarantee you will get nowhere but deeper into your “archaeological hole”.
If you wonder at all, sincerely, if maybe YOU ARE WRONG – I can GUARANTEE God will meet you half way. You think you know so much. I am here to tell you, respectfully, you don’t know sh*t.
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Ah.. and suddenly you show your true colours.
The Catholic Church is simply a political entity formed out of the hijacked writings of ”Paul”. What the Romans could not achieve overtly they managed covertly with religion.
And they made the murdering psychopath Constantine a saint.
Later after their doctrines and creeds were laid out they set about liquidating all opposition. Such as the Cathars.
By the way I struggle with people who use asterisks when they want to swear at me.
It suggests hypocrisy.
I think you are a dumb fuck and have no respect for you at all.
See, no asterisks.
Fuck you!
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I must have hit a nerve?
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lol…. yeah I am afraid for your soul.
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Ok. I apologize. Sorry I told you I think you don’t know shit. (There.)
I realize you are a historian. I am definitely not.
FAITH is not something you will ever be able to obtain from looking for proof.
Catholic teaching: Faith is a gift – from God.
If we are talking about the existence of God or not, it works better to use your reason and think. If you choose to focus completely on disproving that God exists and won’t even entertain the thought that He does, you will never find out the Truth because you don’t WANT to know the truth. You close your mind and heart to the very possibility of God, well you WILL never really know because you don’t WANT to know.
Nothing can be done with that.
But, maybe, YOU could ask YOURSELF why that is.
Life is too short. If there is something, somehow, that keeps you from really even wanting to know for sure: does He exist or not?
Its your life. Do what you want, of course. But please try to be REAL especially with yourself. Don’t involve me. This is between you and God.
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So …. see you in Hell?
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Oh, Jesus.
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Hi Ark. Looked here:. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_the_Bible
From what I could see, the debate continues. Also, seems to have been divided into two camps: believers who take the Bible as true until proven false and non-believers who don’t hold the Bible as true and want to prove it false. I looked up Dever and Finkelstein and found out their stuff was from the 1960s. And yet the debate continues. Nothing has been established as certain, from what I can see, and the ‘minimalists’ actually have an interest in disproving the Bible.
This is what I understand so far. Am i correct?
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No.
There is evidence of an internal settlement pattern. This is why I suggested you read or listen to something by Finkelstein or Devers.
The 60s? What the frak are you smoking!
Devers has only recently retired and now lives in Malta.
Finkelstein still works.
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Violet,
I have never used the Christian faith to argue against abortion.
To do so is useless because their is no common ground between people who live by rules and other people who make the rules up as they go.
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SOM, the Christian faith makes up rules as it goes along. When is Easter? Should heretics be tortured and murdered? Is it okay to have slaves? Is not the least stroke of a pen gone from OT law or are you disregarding whatever bits you don’t like? So much to make up as you go on, and so little reference to facts as you do so!
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Violet,
Your ignorance of the Bible is so incredibly stupendous.
That is why I don’t bring it up in discussions with you.
What you understand about the Bible and Christianity is mad madcap hallucination.
And what can possibly be done with someone who believes sperm and egg are living beings?
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Perhaps you’re right SOM. Please explain to me why anything in my list was incorrect. Christians reinterpret the Bible as the often as the wind changes direction. Are you not aware that sperm and eggs are living organisms with as much sense of awareness as an early developing fetus? If you’d like to dispute this, please link to your sources. 🙂
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violetwisp,
You may have already seen this article by one of my favourite bloggers. At any rate, heart to heart really ought to read it and have a good think. You’ll see what no. 1 on Valerie’s list is – God aborts 60%. Exactly my point. I have a daughter and a daughter-in-law who work in women’s health care – they think the percentage is higher than that. Both of them have also had a spontaneous abortion (miscarriage).
Fetus worshippers/forced birthers, call them what you want -hypocrites, the lot of them.
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Great, thanks Carmen, lots of useful stuff there. The biblical fine for ending someone else’s pregnancy says it all. The fetus is property, and minor at that.
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“God aborts 60%. Who are you to judge the Almighty?” False. See Natural Evil and Concupiscence.
“Fact checked: The Lord says he’s ok with it” Would love to see that.
“God prescribes abortion potion” Not really. This would require a long and detailed explanation of tribal cultures of the time. We find a similar proscription in the Law of Hammurabi in paragraph 132. Suffice to say, this religious test was a check against the man as much as the woman. In those times, it was not uncommon for husbands to divorce/kill their wives after alleging they had been unfaithful. The ordeal of the bitter waters was to ensure the honesty of both parties and was the last resort in judicial proceedings. Now, to say this is an abortion potion is due to a misrendering of the text. No child is mentioned. In fact, the lack of child mentioned implies that the collapsing of the uterus conforms more to prolapsed uterus than a miscarriage. But if you are reading an NIV then it is no wonder; Biblical scholarship was put on the back burner for that edition in favor of friendly language.
“Kill fetus, get fined – Kill woman, get death” The death of the child is deemed accidental. Cf. Deuteronomy 19:4-6
“Infant becomes person after birth” That is reading into the text.
“Fetus fetish is idolatry” Well that is just an opinion.
“This is what bibliolatry does to people” Which is why Tradition gives us guideposts to read it by.
“Conception obsession is a religious cult” Are you a farmer because that is a pretty good strawman.
“Don’t say you follow Jesus if stopping abortion trumps love, truth, peacemaking, compassion, feeding the hungry, caring for the poor” Since the majority of us don’t believe ending abortion is exclusive to these other goods but rather we believe it is integral to them.
“Life begins at ejaculation” Different sin.
“If the baby goes to heaven And the doctor goes to hell If the woman gets forgiveness What’s the problem pray tell!?” Because no party should be going to hell. Christ came so that we could have life and have it in abundance.
“The Bible doesn’t define when life becomes “a living soul.” Don’t put your words in God’s mouth” Psalm 51:5
This person has a rather myopic and overly Evangelical view of theology.
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““God aborts 60%. Who are you to judge the Almighty?” False. See Natural Evil and Concupiscence.”
You presumably are aware that 60% of fertilised eggs are aborted without human intervention. How can you presume to judge this as evil? On what biblical basis? It’s a natural feature of life – or of ‘creation’ if you’re that way inclined. You can’t possibly pretend to know on any basis that a bunch of cells (at this stage) terminating growth is ‘evil’.
““God prescribes abortion potion” Not really. This would require a long and detailed explanation of tribal cultures of the time.”
No, it wouldn’t, really. It just requires reading it and understanding clearly the attitude towards pregnancy by affair. Not worth keeping and worth pretending your god wants to abort it.
““Kill fetus, get fined – Kill woman, get death” The death of the child is deemed accidental. Cf. Deuteronomy 19:4-6”
You know, the more sensible argument here was that she gives birth prematurely. This one is desperate. They are fighting, in anger, and he hurts the other man’s property. Do you know nothing of the cultural context?
““Infant becomes person after birth” That is reading into the text.
“Fetus fetish is idolatry” Well that is just an opinion.”
Reading into the text and just opinions is all we’re getting from you.
““Conception obsession is a religious cult” Are you a farmer because that is a pretty good strawman.”
I think it’s a fair comment considering the weight of the abortion debate in terms of affecting people’s political opinions.It’s truly cultish.
““The Bible doesn’t define when life becomes “a living soul.” Don’t put your words in God’s mouth” Psalm 51:5”
What about “we are unable to find anything in the Bible that suggests when the god God puts a soul in a growing embryo or fetus”?
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1. Procreation is an objective good. Life is good. Making life, by consequence, is also good since, if a thing is good, then the making of it is also good.
Now the absence of good is called evil. Thus, when a thing creates an absence of good, it is an evil thing. Since a miscarriage creates an absence of life which is good, then it is evil.
Now, there are two types of evil: natural and moral. A natural evil is an absence of good arising from some act of irrational (i.e. non-reasoning) being. Thus, the wolf that attacks and kills a man does so due to the natural instincts of its irrational being. Moral evil is an absence of good arising from the act of a rational (i.e. human) being. Thus, the man who kills another man commits moral evil since he acts according to the rationale of his own mind and according to his own free will.
A miscarriage, unless induced by some rational agency, must be a natural evil since it arises from some irregularity in the biochemical reactions occurring in a woman which are irrational.
Now, natural evil arises, according to the Bible, from the disordering of the whole natural from the Fall of Man and original sin. Man, being the guardian of all creation and having all creation in his care, fell and took creation with him.
2. Again I feel the need to point out that the text, except VERY bad translations, state that there is a miscarriage. In fact, the verse talking about accidental miscarriage and this verse have entirely different words describing the uterus and what happens. The Test of Bitter Waters passage does not, in fact, have the word miscarry or miscarriage in it.
3. I do and a little more than you it seems.
“Say to the Israelites, ‘Appoint the cities of refuge, of which I spoke to you through Moses, 3 so that anyone who kills a person without intent or by mistake may flee there; they shall be for you a refuge from the avenger of blood. 4 The slayer shall flee to one of these cities and shall stand at the entrance of the gate of the city, and explain the case to the elders of that city; then the fugitive shall be taken into the city, and given a place, and shall remain with them. 5 And if the avenger of blood is in pursuit, they shall not give up the slayer, because the neighbor was killed by mistake, there having been no enmity between them before. 6 The slayer shall remain in that city until there is a trial before the congregation, until the death of the one who is high priest at the time: then the slayer may return home, to the town in which the deed was done.’” Cf. Numbers 35:22-25
4. Would you prefer if I wrote 15 page essays with footnotes and a bibliography instead?
5. And yet the comment puts a weight that is undue on many more than the vocal minority you are talking about.
6. Well, this is normally where I would point out that Sola Scriptura is inherently illogical and that all these arguments depend on a strict adherence to it therefore invalid to anyone except a minority of Christians, but I confess I persisted out of some vanity at least.
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Pingback: understanding history, understanding humans | violetwisp
1. At 18-20 weeks, a child can feel pain. At three weeks, the child has a heart beat. At 12-14 weeks, the child can react to external stimuli. Most abortions occur at 13 weeks. Calling it a “potential” human being overlooks two realities: a) the child has being i.e. it exists and has life and b) that this living thing is human. Unless being or existing is dependent on specific organ functions–which would naturally lead to the eugenic argument that the disabled are not really alive and therefore totes ok to be put down like animals–and unless humans are the only species that go from one species to another during gestation, then we must conclude that the being residing in the womb is human. I agree that women, especially pregnant women, should be cared for. Supporting women and opposing abortion is not antithetical. A world that uses abortion–which no rational person can support per se, that is no one wants to have abortions–as a means of granting women basic rights like a fair shake in the work place, adequate health care, a living wage, and generally nondiscriminatory is inherently sexist. This perfectly natural biological process shouldn’t carry a social stigma to the extent that women feel they need abortion just to survive in the world. We need substantial social change, not abortion.
2. We are seemingly in agreement on this point.
3. So instead of preventing humans the right to be born and live, why not crack down on the social problems we don’t want them born into? Why use abortion as some great cop out from fixing the societal problems we face? It is making generations pay for the mistakes we continue to make because we are unwilling to give up certain aspects of our lifestyles to help those in need or even just our neighbor.
Conclusion: Then join the American Solidarity Party.
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Thanks for your comment, I’ll check out the American Solidarity Party. I agree with some of what you say, but a fetus until it can survive outside the womb is still a potential human being, a parasite human being (not meant in a negative way, just fact) dependent on the co-operation of it’s host human being, that woman. It’s a wonderful thing if you want it there, but we can’t presume to judge the decisions of women who choose not to host a pregnancy, just because the fetus ‘might’ or ‘probably would’ develop into an independent human being. It looks like you’re a man – try to imagine, really, what that would be like inside your own body – never mind the chemical/emotional response of the body.
I don’t think many people see abortion as a cop-out, it’s simply the pathway of least harm in certain situations – and we can’t find a way to truly evaluate from the outside what those circumstances are. It’s up to the individual woman.
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All children are dependent on the co-operation of their mothers. Did you know that humans actually give birth early according to scientific consensus? In fact, it is estimated that children are supposed to stay about 3-6 more months in the womb. By that time, however, their heads are too large to be birthed vaginally and a C-Section becomes more dangerous.
My point is that, well after birth, an infant is IMMENSELY dependent on their mother to the extent that children that were separated from their mothers in early infancy grow up to have serious behavioral problems. Ask my wife and she’ll describe our son’s breastfeeding and overall attachment to her as extremely paracitic.
Parenthood means sacrifice. Anyone who tries to say otherwise shouldn’t be a parent and, yes, I realize that means plenty of Evangelicals who would normally be on my side. To say a woman becomes a mother when a child is born is grossly inaccurate. You are a mother from the time the child is conceived because your body immediately begins to care for the child.
I can imagine it because I supported my wife through it twice. I know how hard it is on them. Believe me, my wife is not a simpering, dependant type. She was in labor and thought her contractions were Braxton-Hicks; the woman is tough and doesn’t need me most of the time. But one thing she will say is that I made the whole thing easier.
I think every woman should have the support network my wife had. I don’t think it is too much to ask and I think it is every woman’s right.
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How about preaching that to all those men who decide to abandon their partners/abuse them/don’t support them or their children?
You won’t do that, though, will you? It’s much easier – and you get to ride the moral high road – to bash women who find themselves in desperate circumstances.
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Those are good points and I support them. I think it takes two people to make a child and that both become parents when they conceive.
You seem to be trying to back me into a corner that I was never in to begin with. Clearly I don’t support only one solution to this very complex problem.
If I believe, for example, that every child is unique and worth supporting, then I must equally believe that every woman and frankly human being deserves the same. Now, you would likely think this the great hypocrisy of my position, that I would support one and not the other.
On the contrary, I do not have such a hypocrisy. We need to orient our policies and societies to support women so much that ending their pregnancy is never seen as a necessity. I believe it is a severe poverty that, in a country as rich and bounteous as the US, we cannot provide the bare minimum of family leave, protect women from being discriminated in the workplace for having children, keeping women safe from abusers, providing them adequate healthcare as well as monetary and counseling support especially post partum, and many other basic things.
I further believe that it is the most deceptive oppression that tells women that the only way they can be free is by denying that they have a uterus and that sometimes it makes babies. It passes the oppression of women to a third party in this case, often giving the woman the option of struggling in poverty all her life or killing her child to survive for another day.
“Rockabye” by Clean Bandit has to be one of the most moving songs I have heard in my lifetime. To me, I see it as both a judgment and a mandate. It is a judgment of how we treat women with children or would have children and it is a mandate to do more for them. That is why I, along with the American Solidarity Party, do not support abortion, but we will fight tooth and claw to ensure that a mother, single or otherwise, has nothing to worry about except the next poopy diaper.
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“but we will fight tooth and claw to ensure that a mother, single or otherwise, has nothing to worry about except the next poopy diaper. ”
Stephen, I’m wondering if you are particularly young, there’s a naivety here about what parenthood is. Have you ever seen a woman struggle with parenthood? It isn’t all lovely poopy diapers, it’s a living torture that those of us who are lucky enough to choose to endure it for the happy bits. You can’t force people to give birth and expect it will be all happiness with a few support structures. There are cases where people will simply not be able to provide a decent home for a child, why would you force it on everyone?
In saying all that, it’s at least a step forward that there is a pro-life movement fighting for more that simply cutting rights, but at least focusing on extending support for children and families.
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Clearly I am hyperbolic. And yes, i have seen women struggle to be parents. I struggle to be a parent. The bottom line is though that a parent shouldn’t have to worry about basic things like food, clothing, and shelter.
I am not saying they remain parents. I am saying they don’t kill the child because they don’t want to remain parents. I am all for alternative options because I do not believe abortion is an option.
You’d be surprised, I think, how numerous we are.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj7lsD7iZjSAhWBQiYKHbkwAN4QFggiMAI&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.newwavefeminists.com%2F&usg=AFQjCNHUqWOnwmRPgQQJTDft5fOSTnrw1g&sig2=V2a-bH22-wKR5lV6BKrjpA&bvm=bv.147448319,d.eWE
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You’re numerous because it’s an easy, mindless win. Most of us love children, love parenthood, rejoice in pregnancy. You convince people that the wriggling little creature inside someone else’s body has feelings and desires and of course they judge its right to life. The difficulty comes when you seriously analyse the situations women are in, when you seriously look at the statistics that show you women are willing to risk their lives to end unwanted pregnancies, and when you step out of your privilege bubble to think about what forcing someone to give birth would actually look like. The fetus can’t feel anything, isn’t aware of anything. The woman has a right to life and a right to choose if she grows new life within her body.
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“…and when you step out of your privilege bubble to think about what forcing someone to give birth would actually look like.” You seem to misunderstand. I am aware that I am lucky and want to extend that bubble.
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Good. But that’s not reality, and if it ever were to become a reality would take another 1000 years at least. In the meantime, women have other things to work about.
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“All things are ready, if our minds be so.”
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“My point is that, well after birth, an infant is IMMENSELY dependent on their mother to the extent that children that were separated from their mothers in early infancy grow up to have serious behavioral problems. ”
Yes, I agree. But if women choose to go through with a pregnancy and give the child up for adoption that is their right too. And many children have benefited from this choice, and many newborn babies have been separated from their mothers and been very happy human beings – we can’t say the say of a 12-week-old fetus, which I’m sure you’ll agree is a crucial difference.
“I think every woman should have the support network my wife had.” Hurrah. If wishes were horses. It’s not too much to ask that every person has the support they need at every stage of their life, but I think you might agree that’s an impossibility.
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I see no difference in desiring to protect all life, from the 12 week child in the womb, to the mother of that child, to the inmate on death row, the refugee, to the orphan, the widow, to the infirm, to the lonely, to the downtrodden, to infinity. Our capacity for life is only limited by our capacity to love.
That is why I do not believe this to be an impossibility.
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Indeed. I’d extend it to every sentient being. We shouldn’t be condemning animals to stressful lives and deaths so that we can gorge on their flesh far beyond our nutritional needs. But of course, the 12-week-old fetus isn’t sentient.
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Oh, and Stephen. I’ve been reading up on the ASP. Solidly Catholic in its roots, it touts the usual fundamentalist ‘canards’ – anti same-sex marriage, pro-life, yada, yada. Right. Bring those babies into the world so Catholic priests can use them for their own sadistic pleasures. You really want to argue morals from the standpoint of the Catholic church? Talk about zero credibility.
Honestly, violetwisp, I really wonder about the blinders some of these fundamentalists have embedded above their ears. Jesus H. Christ.
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