punishing children
when my wife was home alone with two kids, she had to do something with the older child or she could not take care of the new-born. She finally conceded the necessity of punishment (spanking was not something she liked either). Mostly she just stuck the two-year old in the backyard (fenced) until the child agreed to behave. Even with a shaded patio deck, Houston, TX can be quite uncomfortable without air-conditioning. Watching that stubborn, wilful little girl cry hurt my lady more than it did my eldest. Still, it worked. (Citizen Tom)
I often get a heavy pain in my heart when I read and see how some parents deal with young children. Don’t get me wrong, I’m well acquainted with the pressures of caring for more than one young child at the same time and have made some terrible decisions myself when facing challenging behaviour. The difference is, I know not to celebrate this kind of ‘discipline’, I know it’s not the only way to deal with children, and I’m certain it’s not the best way.
There are two main approaches to raising children. You can view them as wild animals that need taming, innately prone to bad behaviour, and in need of discipline featuring punishments to ensure they stay in line. Or you view them as astoundingly intelligent little human beings who learn quickly, who aim to please, who push boundaries as a necessary feature of development, and who are more than capable of learning, and learning well, by observation, gentle direction and open discussion.
The other thing to know about young children is that they have very basic needs – they get tired, hungry, scared, in need of stimulation, interaction, love – and don’t know how to express their discomfort. All too often people are quicker to jump to the ‘need for discipline’ before jumping to diagnose and treat the discomfort.
I can’t bear seeing parents take the hard line with kids – they are so often silly battles for control with escalating threats of punishment. We need to come off our high horse, abandon the power game need for control, ignore the shame at loss of face in public, and ask: why is the child acting up?
You see a tired, bored and hungry three year old at lunchtime being trailed round fluorescent-lit shops being shouted at to behave. We so often lose touch with children’s needs. We want the perks of parenthood, but to live our ‘normal’ life in an urban environment and force the kids to fit in. Kids should be out in the woods digging holes in the mud. Fresh air, exercise, decent food, stimulation, love. It’s not about pandering to their every whim, or restructuring our entire existence, but about recognising where they are most comfortable, what they need, and what their limitations are.
I don’t blame or judge Tom’s wife, above. She was doing what she had to do in the midst of baby-plus-toddler mayhem. As parents we sometimes don’t have time to think about why a child is doing something, but need to make sure everyone is safe first.
But if part of placing her in a safe area where she couldn’t do harm was to punish a two-year old (a two-year old!) adjusting to the changed environment of a new sibling, with insufferable heat and further separation from the main caregiver, I do start to be disgusted. Be ashamed of that kind of treatment, think about how it could have been dealt with differently, and never attempt to sell that kind of cruelty to the next generation as something that ‘worked in the long-run’, something that was unavoidable or something that is acceptable.
Your daughter turned out to be well-adjusted with a lovely disposition? Imagine how much more amazing she would have been without that kind of stress and trauma in such an early phase of her development!
You don’t blame or judge Tom’s wife? That’s absolutely fine. Children grow up and children have memories. Tom’s children are actual human beings, with minds and emotions. Perhaps Tom and his wife don’t understand it yet, but life goes full circle. One day they’ll most probably depend on the goodwill of this child (or one of the others, if they have more.) For their sake they should keep that in mind. I’ve seen a whole lot of people simply walk away from families. Will that be the case for Tom’s children? It depends on him and his wife.
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She’s grown up apparently and he’s proud she’s an MD. That was the point of the last couple of lines. Some people won’t show obvious signs of damage or resentment, perhaps there is no long lasting damage in many cases, but I still don’t think it’s the best course of action. I know what it’s like to be sleep deprived looking after two young children – I don’t blame or judge anyone for anything they do, seriously. My point is that we don’t celebrate bad decisions. People bent on ‘punishment’ for children along these lines think it’s a success story because the child learns a lesson. Children learn better lessons with other techniques.
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The human being standard is very easy to follow. If society and the law find it unacceptable for one citizen to “lock another in a garden” or physically harm them, I think we can presume doing it to a child is equally unacceptable.
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Just had a thought about this. French children are renowned for being very well behaved. Any idea what the difference is?
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The threat of liver.
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First you preach to us that the Great Genocide of the Unborn is none of our business because genocide is okay because who you are murdering doesn’t look like you, feel things like you do, isn’t as aware as you are or have the same needs that you do…
…and that it’s a woman’s right to murder her unborn child because the poor thing has the misfortune of having taken up residence in her body, over which the woman is completely sovereign.
Now you are preaching to us about how we must raise our children, you know, the ones that survived your holocaust.
The People of Trumpland are gagging and choking on the stench of hypocrisy…
…while the to the denizens of the Clinton Archipelago the sewage stench of hypocrisy smells like expensive perfume.
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That’s an interesting angle SOM. My perspective is to minimise suffering for everyone (the suffering of a woman growing an unwanted child, the suffering of unwanted children living in poverty, the suffering of a young child being punished when they just want love or food), while your perspective is to force adult women to grow unwanted children, to force existence on humans who otherwise would be unaware they might have developed, and to force children to bend to the will of parents through suffering and/or violence. I’m gagging on the stench of inhumanity, control freakery and violence. And to you it smells like the will of an invisible, benevolent creator deity. Curious. 🙂
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Violet,
You have just expressed a text book case of “the end’s justify the means” immorality.
Your good intensions do not justify genocide today anymore than someone else’s did a lifetime ago in Europe and the Soviet Union.
Mao, another one of your genocidal brethren, also had great intentions.
My Communist Chinese roommate can attest to that.
For it was Mao who united all of China into one great nation and expelled the foreign capitalist roader…
…all for a cheap genocide of 60,000,000 or so.
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SoM, just how many has the Divine Commander murdered?
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Carmen,
That would be a big fat ZERO-zilla.
Like Plato’s “Republic,” the Bible is a book about justice.
If you call justice, murder why then you have no moral compass.
And that’s why you are an atheist.
Atheists have no moral compass.
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“Atheists have no moral compass.” In your mind, that is. But we can all know what goes on in your mind, SoM.
The jig’s up. 🙂
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Carmen,
You the atheist, can’t tell the difference between cold blooded murder and justice.
What’s on my mind isn’t the problem.
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Well, discipline simply means to teach. It’s the same word we get disciple from. Believe it or not, kids who are not disciplined will not feel loved either, nor safe and protected. They tend to suffer from depression and genuine feelings of neglect. Empathy is all well and good, but to not discipline is to not love.
I was actually more aligned with your views as my younger self and always prone to reason with the kids, to placate them. It’s somewhat funny, but all these years later it’s the only thing I regret, not enough discipline. I see the price they have paid for that,the confusion and insecurity.
You said, “Imagine how much more amazing she would have been without that kind of stress and trauma in such an early phase of her development!” Believe it or not,it is actually really harmful to raise kids unprepared to deal with what you call “stress and trauma.” Like the trauma of being told “no.” There’s a reason why we need to learn these things while we’re young and resilient. They are preparation for a much harsher and more brutal world.
“Discipline” is a bit like what runners do preparing for a marathon. Maybe it seems a bit cruel, but it’ s not nearly as cruel as trying to send your untrained body out on a 40 mile run. Discipline is simply to train,to teach, to prepare,and it provides the armor you need out in the real world.
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Thanks for your comment Insanity. My main point is that punishment, particularly in the form of physical suffering, is unacceptable. I think it’s easy to set boundaries alongside more gentle parenting. Saying ‘no’ and giving reasons lets the child understand that actions have consequences that need to be evaluated. I wouldn’t deliberately unleash stress and trauma on a child so they are prepared to deal with it as an adult – that’s thoroughly illogical!
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Wow. I bow before the level of presumption and sanctimony which singles out particular individuals in order to pass public judgement on their mothering and fathering. It would not occur to me.
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From afar.
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Thanks madblog. I’m quite sure there are many things that don’t occur to you. If you enjoy the thought of a screaming two-year old being made to suffer in intense heat, and think it’s an appropriate punishment to be shared as example of ‘good parenting’, then you sink lower than I could ever have imagined.
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I’ve made no defense of any child-rearing decisions at all here, not CT’s nor yours. I am not defending his wife’s judgements nor yours.
My only comment is to point out how incredibly smug, and presumptuous you are being when you pick out a woman you don’t know, from across an ocean, and render public verdicts on the sacred relationship between her and her child, when you condemn her with thimbleful of evidence. Yikes, this is just ugly, and I think most people regardless of any kind of orientation would know enough not to do it.
It must be nice up there, but lonely.
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I see what you mean Madblog. Citizen Tom put that story in a public place and I’m simply reacting to it. He used it as an example to illustrate why thinks inflicting suffering on children is useful. If it offends his wife (who had no say in this, I guess, and may be embarrassed by it) I’ll remove the links to his name. We all do things we’re ashamed of, but I think he’s proud of it, so I’m not convinced there’s harm done in me using it as a example to illustrate why punishing children in this kind of way isn’t acceptable.
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And you took that little bit of information, added your own dramatic details and malicious attitudes, and created a narrative to suit your condescension. But just keep on judging from afar, no harm done.
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Just think, violet wisp, only when one has an invisible commandant can one be a heartless asshat – and feel sanctimonious, to boot.
To see that you’ve had three of them come on here to defend their morally superior position says it all.
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A friend was just telling me about a religious book that tells ‘Christians’ what instruments to physically punish their kids with. Rings a bell, I think it’s a book John Zande mentions sometimes. It’s disturbing that people still can believe physical violence against little humans could be justified.
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Yes, it’s called “To Train Up a Child” by that vile Michael Pearl; has been linked with several deaths of innocent children. Loathsome individual.
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I belong to a family that is now in its fifth generation of not using corporal punishment, and we’re into the fourth generation of minimising any from of punishment. It’s perfectly possible to bring up well behaved, open minded, loving and generous individuals without the use force of any kind.
We have found that if we give children the consideration and respect we expect from them, then that will be reciprocated. Sure it’s not at easy or as quick as a wooden spoon – a lot of patience is required – but the effort is worthwhile.
If your goal is to get your children to “obey the rules”, then perhaps corporal punishment is effective. But if your aim is to bring up children who can think for themselves and have the utmost respect for everyone else, then spare the rod.
I’m convinced that using force on a child but not on a spouse, neighbour or anyone else smacks of hypocrisy. Why should violence by a large person on a small person be acceptable when society prohibits it in other circumstances?
Thankfully, here in Aotearoa New Zealand our legislators think the same way, and parents have no more right to physically punish their children than they have to physically punish anyone else. It works.
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Barry,
I was a wicked little kid who scoffed at parents who gave their kids “a good talking to,” whenever they got into trouble.
My parents quit applying corporal punishment when it became clear that I would return the favor.
The world is a harsh place mostly because of knuckleheads like me who only learned to respond to reason as they grew older, if at all.
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I can’t say I ever received “a good talking to”. I certainly never have one. We seemed to know instinctively that there was a point beyond which we would disappoint out parents or peers, and we always wanted to avoid simply because we knew it hurt our parents or peers. Obedient children we were not. Respectful children we were. We were encouraged to experiment and mistakes were never punished. This is what I passed on to my children, and they in turn are passing on to their children.
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Barry,
Some a$$holes are born. Some are made.
I think I was born an a$$hole.
I simply can’t image what you are talking about.
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“I think I was born an a$$hole.” I don’t think you’ll get any argument on that one, SoM. 🙂
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Carmen,
The great thing about Jesus is that he turns people like me into loving human beings.
Wouldn’t it be great if God were on your side too?
All you have to do is ask!
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I’ll correct that statement for you, SoM – “All you have to do is IMAGINE!” 😉
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Carmen,
If you can’t tell the difference between murder and justice, you don’t know the difference between reality and hallucination.
Also, remember that song by John Lennon, “Imagine?”
That was one of the stupidest songs ever written!!
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And by the way, I was a high school teacher for many years and though corporal punishment was not allowed, my students asked me if I would use it if I could.
I told them I just didn’t have the stomach for it.
I wouldn’t have the stomach for it with my own children, either.
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Glad to hear it SOM.
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Thanks for popping over Barry. I should have added somewhere in the post that you are an inspiration to me on this, and in fact sparked off the train of thought in the conversation here: https://violetwisp.wordpress.com/2017/02/10/breaking-news-more-bible-translation-errors-discovered/#comment-30029
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Barry, I am assuming that in the 4 generations that have finished raising children, most of the children learned to think for themselves and respect everyone. My suspicion would be that not everyone turned out that way.
I also think one of the key reasons your approach has been so effective for you is that you have 5 generations in the line who have helped teach this way of training children. You have mentors, people who can help you when you don’t know what to do. I have interacted with a few parents and their children, whose parenting method is more “I don’t tell them what to do or not do, I let them make their own choices” who don’t have that kind of a family history and whose children are totally out of control! But I have met parents who spank their kids for looking the wrong way who are ALSO out of control!
I think you should define what you mean by using force. Violet might make her children go to their room to think about things, and that is a kind of force. They are made to do something the might not want to. Even making a child talk about and work through the problem when they don’t want to is using force. I suspect you mean physical force like yelling, screaming and hitting.
I think it would also be helpful if you elaborated on what kind of punishment you guys use when necessary, since you did say you keep it to a minimum. I think there are a lot of younger parents who could benefit from knowing what has worked in your family for 5 generations and what didn’t.
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I elaborate a little more in my post https://anotherspectrum.wordpress.com/2015/05/29/secret-bible-reading/
There is a difference between force and persuasion. Forcing a child to work through a problem is not likely to be as fruitful as encouraging them to do so. It really depends on the long term relationship between parent and child. I dare say what we practce wouldn’t work if it wasn’t from birth.
Has it been 100% successful? Of course not, but I believe it’s more successful than any other method. Most, if not all cases have been where someone coming into the family has not been willing to adopt our methods. But in five generations we’ve had no one who has “gone off the rails” with substance abuse or criminal activity or otherwise anti-social. The divorce rate is about a fifth of the national average, but a high rate of multi-cultural marriages/partnerships. I’m proud to say that between my children and their partners, my parents, my wife and myself there are three diferent Christian denominations, two non-Christian religions, a humanist and an atheist, and five different political affiliations. There’s only one partnership where both spouses hold similar religious beliefs, and only one partnership where both are of the same ethnicity. What we all have in common is a firm belief that children need guidance, not rules; encouragement, not punishment.
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Discipline does not equal punishment. They are two different things.
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Hi Ruth, good to see you. Is that a reply to Insanity? It popped up at the bottom.
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Hi Violet. It’s not exactly a reply to Insanity, though I did contemplate her comments as well as the comments of others before responding. It is more of an observation than anything. People tend to equate discipline with punishment. They aren’t the same thing. People often point to Proverbs 13:24, “Whoever spares the rod hates their children, but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them,” in order to support the idea of punishment.
Punishment is done with impunity. Discipline is done to train, to teach, and to equip. Using the rod often puts to mind the imagery of physically using a rod to spank a child. This is not at all what that verse even implies and it is all because most people are completely unaware of a shepherd’s responsibilities and duties.
When a sheep goes astray they don’t use their rod to beat the sheep into submission and compliance. They extend their rod to gently guide the straying sheep back into the fold. This is discipline.
Punishment is not discipline and is most often done out of exasperation and/or anger.
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“When a sheep goes astray they don’t use their rod to beat the sheep into submission and compliance.” Great points, this one especially. The idea of a decent shepherd whacking sheep and expecting to control them is hilarious!
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Exactly.
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VW asked me to repost this comment here. So…
Question for parenting: what’s your goal? The answer to this question determines whether or not this tool or that one is the best one for the job.
The goal achieved by punishment – and this is borne out by longitudinal child psych research – is to teach children how to avoid the punishment. Not the behaviour being punished as parents assume but being caught. This is what is being taught by parents who use punishment. Is this really the goal parents seek to reach with their kids, how to avoid taking responsibility?
Punishment is and should be at the bottom of the tool box for this reason and used only when the parent must take control of the child’s behaviour for the child’s immediate safety.
And just to clarify, negative reinforcement is not equivalent to punishment; it’s a very common technique to get us to do something in order to get rid of something.. like the sound made when a seat belt is left undone. To get rid of the unpleasant (negative) sound means doing something (reinforcing) like attaching the belt. or the car door making an unpleasant sound when left open to get you to shut it and remove the negative sound incursion. That’s not what punishment does because both the cause and release of the punishment is one step removed from the child; it’s not the activity the child committed being punished but the child, and the object doing the correcting is not the child’s behaviour but the parent doing the punishing. Parents assume by claiming otherwise are, in fact, lying to the child and the child knows this. Punishment increases distrust by the child of the parent doing it while promoting avoidance of the parent causing it. The connection the child is supposed to make to the previous behaviour and the parent’s surrogate role to correct it is indeed so faint as to be felt as a lie, a betrayal.
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This is my favourite bitL
“Punishment is and should be at the bottom of the tool box for this reason and used only when the parent must take control of the child’s behaviour for the child’s immediate safety.”
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Punishment means “The infliction or imposition of a penalty as retribution for an offence.” That’s what punishment is… a retributive act. Punishment always includes an element of intentional harm caused. So the only time the intentional harm can be justified is if it precludes a greater harm. And typical punishments carried out by parents simply fails this litmus test of efficacy. It’s the worst tool in the parenting toolbox yet the most commonly grasped.
So, if there’s a better tool, a more effective tool, why wouldn’t parents choose it?
Two reasons I can think of: either ignorance or selfishness… an emotional impulse to gain some kind of benefit for the parent by punishing their dependent, which I see as a sign of failure on the parent’s part. And, after all is said and done, aren’t they supposed to be the informed ones, the responsible ones – the guides, the teachers, the examples for their children?
Meting out punishment to children as a tool of discipline is a demonstration and admission of poor parenting. I think kids deserve better from us and not our worst.
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There’s social pressure too. People feel shame if they aren’t controlling their children like robots. It’s a hangover from previous generations, and fear of loss of control. What will people think of me? Why can’t I control my children?
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Quite true. Control seems to be key word.. as if we can control our children as if they were robotic agencies.
Now imagine having confidence that your child will make you proud by wanting to behave well from the beginning when going into any situation. How great is that feeling? I can tell you: pretty damn good. So good, in fact, that several children now in the world are because their parents wanted to feel the same way.
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Violet,
Your questions above remind me of our daughter – she has three children, born in five years, and she and our son-in-law do not use corporal punishment. They do spend an awful lot of time talking to their children and I must admit that I was not a fan at first. The eldest is seven now and I can see the benefits of their gentle parenting. I think the children are wonderful (I mean, I would!), kind and very empathic — their (hurtful) actions are always analyzed, and they are always made to realize the effect their actions have on others (usually a younger sibling); I find they are very quick to come to another’s defence if they see an injustice. However, our daughter is always mindful of their behaviour and I have heard her say, “I’m sure everyone is wondering why I cannot control my children!” My retort is usually, “That’s just it – they’re children, not adults! That’s how kids act!” 🙂 I must admit that I didn’t exercise that kind of careful consideration when our own were young (although they were well-behaved)- which I now regret. I think our offspring are doing a much more admirable job of raising their children. It’s a lot more work and demands much more patience than I ever had — I am proud of their efforts.
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I’m delighted to hear you see the advantages. We lose the robot children (which I once was) but hopefully we gain children who are better equipped in general.
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Too funny, Pink. I laugh out loud because I’ve done the same… and now I pay the price for using food this way. Now I have to tolerate all kinds of foods they prepare to do what I once claimed… to ‘expand’ one’s palate, donchaknow. (Maybe I should have drowned the little buggers when I had the chance.)
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Pingback: AMBUSHED AGAIN…..SIGH! – Citizen Tom
violetwisp, I’m sure you’re aware that a case can easily be made that raising children as you recommend is cruel and unloving. Before you bring that gavel down again (your arm must be getting a workout!), I’m not saying that I believe that to be true, but that a very persuasive case can be made for that position.
Would you enjoy it if I were to write a post about you, by moniker, describing your child-care as cold, careless, irresponsible and lazy? How about if I then accused your spouse or partner that way? Would you think that was quite appropriate?
Imagine I’m in the room with you, and you relate an incident with your child in confidence. I leave the room and go home. I have a few friends over, and re-tell the tale with my own embellishments and certain verdicts on the wrongness of your parenting, calling into question your character and beliefs, and your motives as a parent.That OK? Because that’s what you did here.
tildeb’s argument from the classroom, if anything, supports your opposition here. It does sound as though he/she is an engaging teacher, and more power to him/her. But the fact that discipline problems haven’t been a problem in her classroom only indicate that the kids have already been taught how to behave by someone else.(And various methods of childrearing were probably employed.) They are already disciplined as well as socialized according to the expectations of the institutional school setting. So first, parental training and schoolroom discipline are apples and oranges. Second, those kids have been successfully disciplined/ trained, probably some of them with precisely the methods you don’t approve. And so that is not evidence for tildeb’s position, nor yours.
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@madblog
Thank you for your comments.
Frankly, if I had known violetwisp was going to make a big issue out that comment, I don’t know if I would have posted it, but I took the risk with my eyes open. I know how judgmental those who don’t think Christians should be judgemental can be.
The secular don’t want to understand the concept of freedom of religion. It is more important to them to achieve some vague Utopia where everyone thinks like “me”. Such a Utopia is never going to happen, at least not in this life.
So do I detest the way violetwisp or Barry or tildeb or whoever want to raise children? Frankly, I don’t pretend to know enough about their methods. As you suggest, they really have not given as much thought to the matter as they think. They are too busy being offended somebody is not doing it their way. The intolerance of the so-called tolerant is amazing. There are so busy puffing themselves up and being angry that their explanations of what they do do really don’t make any sense.
So what was the point in bringing up the matter of how my wife and I raised our children?. I just tried to show the Bible does not teach us to be brutal, and it does not. Still, there are fixed rules, and those rules offend some. Why is it that those who worship science cannot imagine that morality also requires fixed rules of behavior?
A child is not evil. A child is innocent. For awhile a child does not know good or evil, but a child is born seeing him or herself as the center of all. A child is born with the belief “I must be first!” Some how, some way parents must teach a child to control that belief, that pride in self. More often than not before a child can learn the rewards of loving someone, that child must learn the consequences of arrogance the hard way.
Yet what is the primary job of a parent? Parents must do what Jesus did for us, to selflessly love their children. Punishment is just a small part of raising a child. The Bible does not offer the rod as a substitute for love.
We show our love for God by loving each other, especially those closest to us.
violetwisp’s post is ironic, actually. She uses Christian teachings to beat up Christianity. She seizes upon the teachings she likes to denigrate the ones she hates. Yet the teachings she likes do not exist without the teachings she hates. Because God loves us, He hates the evil that hurts and would destroy us.
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In vw’s mind, there are clearly two poles: loving, caring and reason-oriented; and pointless physical torture. She cannot seem to admit that there might be nuances. :0
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To get someone’s attention, sometimes we have to tap that someone on the shoulder. When God wants our attention, He can tap those who don’t want to listen with a considerable amount of force. Is that torture or just what happens when a foolish man who doesn’t appreciate the trouble he is in refuses to accept an offer of help.
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“In vw’s mind, there are clearly two poles: loving, caring and reason-oriented; and pointless physical torture. She cannot seem to admit that there might be nuances.”
What nuances make the physical torture loving and reasonable? Pray tell. You seem to be cautious about stating what you really think.
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I’ll explain my comment to you. You and tildeb, etc. are having such righteous fun building a straw man to righteously triumph over, putting out so many, so so many absurd and arrogant unexamined premises–truly hateful ones– that I frankly haven’t had the time or energy to correct even a fraction of them. Especially since it’s clear that you’re only going to hear what massages your contempt anyway.
The irony that the representatives of compassion, reason and respect toward children here have exhibited almost nothing but arrogance, vitriol, rigid thinking, and dismissiveness seems to have escaped you. If you’re the result of that which you promote, no thanks!
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You’re doing a marvellous job of side-stepping key questions here like “What nuances make the physical torture loving and reasonable?” following on from your own comment suggesting there are some, instead preferring to concentrate on judging our characters. Of course you don’t enjoy discussing this with us, you can’t stay on topic, and you’re upset at the thought that your parenting could have been harmful. Let’s put all the judgements to one side, not refer to each other’s parenting experiences or characters.
I suggest you read something like this comprehensive review of the literature (from way back, in 2002) which seems quite impartial, accepting that corporal punishment has immediate results and that not all children experience negative outcomes as a result of it:
Is Corporal Punishment an Effective Means of Discipline?
http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2002/06/spanking.aspx
If you can’t be bothered clicking on the link to see the full text, here are some interesting bits:
“There is general consensus that corporal punishment is effective in getting children to comply immediately while at the same time there is caution from child abuse researchers that corporal punishment by its nature can escalate into physical maltreatment”
“Gershoff also cautions that her findings do not imply that all children who experience corporal punishment turn out to be aggressive or delinquent. A variety of situational factors, such as the parent/child relationship, can moderate the effects of corporal punishment. Furthermore, studying the true effects of corporal punishment requires drawing a boundary line between punishment and abuse. This is a difficult thing to do, especially when relying on parents’ self-reports of their discipline tactics and interpretations of normative punishment.”
“While the nature of the analyses prohibits causally linking corporal punishment with the child behaviors, Gershoff also summarizes a large body of literature on parenting that suggests why corporal punishment may actually cause negative outcomes for children. For one, corporal punishment on its own does not teach children right from wrong. Secondly, although it makes children afraid to disobey when parents are present, when parents are not present to administer the punishment those same children will misbehave.”
And here’s the conclusion:
“”Until researchers, clinicians, and parents can definitively demonstrate the presence of positive effects of corporal punishment, including effectiveness in halting future misbehavior, not just the absence of negative effects, we as psychologists can not responsibly recommend its use,” Gershoff writes.”
As far as I’m aware, no-one has demonstrated this. If you could point me to somewhere, anywhere, that has – I’d be more than interested to read it. If you can’t, I really think you should swallow your pride on this one and move on.
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“Let’s put all the judgements to one side, not refer to each other’s parenting experiences or characters. ”
If you’re going to do that, you’ll have to remove basically all you’ve said here, indeed the whole post. Your intent has been nothing but to shame a woman–who never gave you permission–to excoriate her publicly, and who never asked for your parenting advice. (That’s why it was OK, right?–because you would welcome that criticism?) Your whole conversation has been for the purpose of judging characters. As for me, I’ve been accused of malicious parenting even though you have no idea of my parenting, you’ve accused me of tribalism (a hoot, since you and td cannot ever respond to the issues I actually raise, but only to assumptions you make based upon my faith orientation {and btw you’re usually quite incorrect on the conclusions lol–which makes YOU guilty of tribal thinking). You have no comment on the difficult parenting places in which people find themselves, even when given an opportunity; those possibilities for constructive discussion go unanswered; your only intent here is to condemn. Enough. I have no more time to waste on pointlessness.
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You’re a hoot madblog, do you actually believe yourself when you’re avoiding real discussion, real facts and typing out this kind of stuff? From the post:
“I’m well acquainted with the pressures of caring for more than one young child at the same time and have made some terrible decisions myself when facing challenging behaviour.”
“I don’t blame or judge Tom’s wife, above. She was doing what she had to do in the midst of baby-plus-toddler mayhem. As parents we sometimes don’t have time to think about why a child is doing something, but need to make sure everyone is safe first.”
From my comments:
“I know what it’s like to be sleep deprived looking after two young children – I don’t blame or judge anyone for anything they do, seriously. My point is that we don’t celebrate bad decisions.”
” If it offends his wife (who had no say in this, I guess, and may be embarrassed by it) I’ll remove the links to his name.”
“There’s social pressure too. People feel shame if they aren’t controlling their children like robots. It’s a hangover from previous generations, and fear of loss of control. What will people think of me? Why can’t I control my children?”
But whatever makes you feel justified in ducking out of the conversation without tackling the real issue here.
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My only purpose here was to discuss YOUR behavior, and I made that clear. I don’t get into child-rearing controversies, ever. By the time your children are grown and you’ve actually seen some proof in the pudding, my guess is that you will have come to appreciate what asses people make of themselves by telling other people how to raise their kids.
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“come to appreciate what asses people make of themselves by telling other people how to raise their kids” On this, we are completely agreed. I’m already aware it’s dangerous territory. 🙂 But when it comes to violence against children, I think all experts are agree. It feels wrong, it is wrong. There are lots of other strategies to choose from.
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Some people just don’t seem to GET that once you post something online, it’s for public consumption. That means that you might – no, probably should – expect criticism/challenges to your assertions.
What’s not to get about that, madblog??
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I think it just touched a raw nerve. She obviously has severe challenges in parenting and hasn’t resolved whatever happened. I feel fully prepared for my kids to through everything back in my – I feel like I’m stumbling around in the dark. All I know is that I have the best intentions, as I’m sure most parents do.
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Well, I certainly made mistakes bringing up our children. I admit it. Specifically, spanking children is wrong, which I did occasionally and now realize was the wrong way to handle misbehaving children. Thankfully, though, all four of them -and their partners – still want to be around us and tell others that they had a very secure home life, which is music to my ears because I certainly didn’t. I was determined that my own children be brought up very differently than I was and I see that they – in turn – are doing things much better than I did. (At least, it seems to me that they exercise more patience with their children and certainly give them more autonomy. I like what I see.)
When I read what you say about your children, violetwisp, it sounds to me like you are treating yours just like our grandchildren are being treated – with respect, and recognition that they are children who must be given gentle guidance as to how to behave. I think it’s easier to get them to obey through threats and intimidation – my own children spend an awful lot of time in discussions, where I was more likely to have said, “I’m the mummy, you’re the child so just do it!”- but I think the long-term results (as Tildeb has explained) are far more beneficial.
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“I was more likely to have said, “I’m the mummy, you’re the child so just do it!””
Sometimes wish I could just do that! Any time I’ve tried it becomes an ugly battle of wills. It’s useful to hear from Tildeb about it. He’s wrong on so many things, but I have to agree with him here. 🙂
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Now, don’t be voicing negativity about an atheist; you’ll shatter the martyrdom complexes of the fundamentalists! 🙂
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Even a broken analogue clock is right twice a day.
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By the way, an intriguing message about you: mrsmcmommy February 18, 2017 at 10:12 pm
I have a list of at least six questions Tildeb can’t answer–so he is giving me the silent treatment. (Seriously.)
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Amanda – aka mrsmcmommy – doesn’t care about answers from the likes of me. Ever. About anything. She reliably fails to address my comments with even a modicum of consideration or comprehension and certainly doesn’t even attempt any consideration to further any understanding of explanations I offer. If I explain anything, she claims it’s a rant and/or sermonizing and dismisses all of it on this basis. If I only use quips, she complains that I can’t explain and so it is an equivalent faith position to any other religious faith-based claim or assertion or assumption I’m criticizing. In other words, she demonstrates zero tolerance for answers to her questions. And she full of vitriol in a weird attempt to be amusing like dear old dad (John) to the ‘posse’. So, I don’t respond her. There’s simply no point. She is a waste of my time and effort.
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For someone that likes to hang around with Arb and is familiar with typical male responses to female assertiveness, I wonder if you notice that don’t cut of conversations with men for exactly the same the same reasons. Women don’t strut the strut ‘correctly’ for many men.
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I’m not clear what you mean here.
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I’m suspicious that your disdain for her is based on the fact that she’s a woman. A man exhibiting similar characteristics wouldn’t be ignored in such a fashion. Do you think it’s possible? It’s certainly a common problem faced by assertive women.
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Assertive women are one thing, violetwisp.
If it helps, (and I suspect it may not) she has the same effect on me. It’s pointless to engage with her. I find the father-daughter duo to be unfailingly sneering, petulant and disdainful to all. I gave up on both of them months ago and one of the reasons is John Branyan’s undisguised disrespect for women, ironically enough. She was raised in one of those fundamental, patriarchal homes where women have their roles — one of hers is the unwavering support of her father. You might want to read through her blog to get a sense of where she’s coming from. At times, I felt like weeping. She’s thoroughly indoctrinated and beyond influence, I’m afraid.
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Definitely, I don’t know the first thing about them or their beliefs. My first impression, however, is that they read comments and respond sort of appropriately. Maybe it’s just relief after conversations with brick walls recently ….
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ha, ha – yes, I get what you mean. 🙂
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No. I point out the discrepancy between what is being said by you and the irrational interpretation of it along with the ridiculous claims of harm by IB22… by using her own words against her. IB22’s gender is irrelevant to me.
I happen to hold with (admittedly) some level of disdain anyone who has her demonstrated ability to be both misogynistic and paternalistic…specifically in this case the consequence related to her causal religious beliefs.
But these are merely symptoms of a larger problem. And that problem is IB22’s dedication to very poor critical thinking skills to continue to support bad ideas (like misogyny and paternalism) if they in any way threaten the sanctity of her disdainful religious beliefs. The disdain I have comes from the refusal by anyone to admit how the negative consequences of such very poor thinking skills are actually linked to the faith-based beliefs that so often cause them. Case in point, punitive parenting supported because of biblical justifications..
It’s kind of funny that you think I cut off commenting only to women when in almost every case, the blogger with whom I feel I’m wasting my time bans me outright! (CS, CT, et al…) This has happened more than a dozen times already, including IB22 who has edited some of my comments and held scathing rebuttals to this affront in perpetual moderation, and basically acts like a complete shit. The reason for that shittiness I think rests in the quality of her character and not in the kind of sex organs she bears.
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Haha, I’m not talking about IB22. I mean that you don’t respond to mrsmcmommy. I’m curious why you feel she’s not worth responding to, yet presumably you still respond to the man on the blog. I found her much more sensible than him.
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‘Cause it’s his blog and I comment on the post. What he does after that I have learned is his business.
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Don’t lie tildeb. I will challenge you every time you do. I have banned no one, and the people in this part of town know it. Many of the people who comment here moderate my comments, so what? It is a WP tool or maybe you do not know. Some people actually need to be kept on a comment leash, and some have proved they cannot be trusted with liberty. Pornography comes to mind, and is not welcome at my place.
And I will tell you with equal force, that you know nothing of the character of ib22, other than to misrepresent her, and if I were her, I would not dignify your gripes with a rebuttal.
I dare you to say that the pain of childbirth is evil, or that a man in his own house is evil because he raises his children to bow to authority in ways that are foreign to you.
As I explained to wisp, ‘chastisement’ is always, Always, ALWAYS with a view to restoring a right relationship. If you care not to believe this, that is your business, but do not fault good people by assigning evil to them for not worshiping your godlessness.
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Oh, my bad, CS. I used the term ‘ban’ rather than the correct “kept on a comment leash’.
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That’s right tildeb, you need to be more careful with words, but truth be told, some of your friends have me on an even longer leash, but that is their prerogative.
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Parenting well is really hard. We have a pretty good sense when we’re not doing so well if we feel guilty. It is this feeling that is often at the root of those who do not wish to admit some of their responses were less than loving and that drives some people to stick with ‘the rod’ defense… as if arguing that if it’s okay with god, it’s good enough for me. But the feeling still persists….
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I’ve just been accused of being like the offspring of you and Ark. I’m a bit disappointed, I thought they meant John Zande, but on a re-read it’s you. I mean, really! Jump over to Branyan if you want to take over a morality discussion, I’m just about to go to bed.
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Relax, vw, you’ve touched no raw nerve of mine. There you go again patronizing those who don’t see every little thing your way. Since I apparently need to say so by your book, I’ll thank you to refrain from comment about me and especially my children. I do not give you permission nor do I welcome your advice. Clear?
The only raw nerve touched was the one I felt when I saw you being such a complete jerk toward a woman you’ve never met, and putting it on the internet.
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Her husband put it on the internet. It’s odd to see you overlook the concept of wayward physical punishment for two-year-olds in order to condemn me re-using a story freely shared on the internet (which I’ve offered to remove names from). Another special madblog logic moment!
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Your children are 2 and 5?!
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Yes, of course. I state all over the post that I am in the thick of it. I told you we have kids a generation apart, and talk about the difficulties I have now with my young children. Your surprise really is a fantastic example of how information/facts mean nothing to you.
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CT, there is much in your comment here that is incorrect and in need of revision.
First, you state as if fact, “The secular don’t want to understand the concept of freedom of religion.” Not true. Secularists are very motivated to understand the concept when the religious use it as an excuse to impose religious beliefs on others. In fact, it is the secularist who understands the concept and tries to get religious folk to share it so they’d stop undermining it in the name of religious freedom.
Second, you say, “they (people like I am) really have not given as much thought to the matter (methods of discipline) as they think. They are too busy being offended somebody is not doing it their way.”: Really? I have difficulty imagining how anyone could study this matter more than I. I’m still studying it everyday and have done so for decades. I have used my knowledge to great effect for decades. I have taught other professionals and parents about different methodologies for decades. I find it remarkable that you can deduce from what I have written here that I haven’t given much thought to the matter. That sounds suspiciously to me like an easy and frivolous dismissal by you. You paint it this way so that you can then try to pretend differences of opinion are based not on best practices nor in-depth child development knowledge but on being ‘offended’. That’s not true. I have dealt with parents for decades who use the kind of punitive methods you think is necessary only to have them alter and reverse the trajectory of their parenting methods because they experience the benefits that better tools produce better results and, like you, love their kids, too.
Thirdly, what you see as ‘arrogance’ and ‘selfishness’ in a child are essential components to becoming a healthy adult. These traits you mislabel are in fact necessary pillars for appropriate self-esteem and confidence later. The danger is assuming what you do about kids and their ‘natures’ rather than learning about what constitutes appropriate and inappropriate concerns about the role of self relative to the welfare of others. The idea of ‘fixed rules’ opens the door to child abuse masquerading as ‘teaching disciple’. This is a fine line, CT.
Fourthly, you quite rightly ask an important question, ” what is the primary job of a parent?” Your answer is very opaque, very nebulous: “to selflessly love their children.” If this were true, you’d never, ever, use, condone, support, excuse, or go along with anyone using corporal punishment on a child. Yet very real and ongoing abuse and even death of children in the name of teaching ‘selfless love’ by religious parents is endemic. There is a disconnect here between the ‘fixed rules’ of your religious belief about ‘selfless love’ and the negative effects on so many children. That disconnect belongs to you, CT. Something isn’t quite right between your belief about religious parenting and reality. And it has nothing to do with ‘secularists’ who are ‘offended and everything to do with really poor parenting skills.
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@tildeb
1. What are people doing when they try to outlaw spanking? What is that an example of? It is busybodies using “science” as a prop to impose their own religious beliefs on their neighbors.
2. I am not that impressed by your expertise. You want to cite yourself as an authority? That’s nice (in the old sense of the word), but I respect the Bible. Since I see your notions as contrary to what the Bible teaches, I don’t respect them.
3. Here is a concrete example of why I don’t respect your expertise. What humility involves is a respect for God’s authority. What humility involves is thinking less of our self and more about how God wants to behave and what God wants us to do. Our pride should come from our Lord, what He has done. We should be grateful for what He has given us and acquire faith in our gifts by using them for His glory.
Your statement about child abuse? See my reply to your first point.
4. Selflessly loving our children equates to a “very opaque, very nebulous” answer”? I wish you were joking. I really do.
I remember our previous conversations, tildeb. Basically, you “the expert”, think you have the right and obligation to make everyone else instruct their children your way, which brings back to the first point. In practice, you have no respect for the concept of freedom of religion. At best you want the freedom of worship restricted to a private closet, and you condemn its free exercise. That’s because the only people Christians have any interest in “imposing” their religious belief on is their own children, and that’s abhorrent to you.
Christians want to do what the Bible says, and you don’t like it? If you support the First Amendment to the Constitution, then what right do you have to stop us?
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Really tragic Tom, but I suppose somewhat related. A few decades ago our state started a busy body campaign, banning spanking, policing parents, and grew this giant Child Protective Services, kind of merged with our public school system. Flash forward a few decades later and our state is now responsible for some epic failures, dead children, children placed in foster homes run by pedophiles, just endless lawsuits and utter tragedies, so bad we now rank 48th in the nation for protecting kids. We will take them away from parents who spank, while placing them with someone far worse and kids have wound up in sex trafficking, dead, and permanently disabled. The situation has gotten so bad, we actually have a bipartisan government effort attempting to dismantle the power of CPS and get it out from under the DSHS umbrella.
That is the end result of experts getting together and deciding they know better then parents and that they have a right to force their belief system on others.
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@insanitybytes22
It was predicable, but busybodies are fanatics, not logical.
My work required a fair amount of expertise with computers. When they first came out, a computer only had one central processing unit (CPU). That meant that the only way to make a computer faster was to make the CPU faster. So Cray Computer came out with all kind of fancy ways to make a CPU faster, including cryogenically cooling the computer. These “supercomputers” made the hardware quite costly. It was expensive to buy time on one of those machines.
Eventually, the industry took another track. They started building multi-CPU computers. The trick with these systems is that the operating system and the applications had to be made to make use of multiple CPUs. Still, once the basic software is written, it costs very little to make copies.
No one has ever figured out how to write the software for a socialist government with more than one CPU. Therefore, such a government very costly and inefficient. So it is a bad idea to put government in charge of very much. It is crazy to put the government in charge of child care. Because every child is unique, every child needs individualized care, but government cannot provide that.
That’s why we need families. Families provide children a two-CPU system that can much more adroitly care for them. And those two-CPU systems will love their children far more that the one-CPU government system. So there is no doubt those two-CPU systems will do a much better job.
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Sorry, CT. I stupidly forgot you were clinically insane. My bad.
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tildeb
Don’t worry yourself. I forgive you.
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“Some how, some way parents must teach a child to control that belief, that pride in self. More often than not before a child can learn the rewards of loving someone, that child must learn the consequences of arrogance the hard way.”
Where’s the ‘must’? Tildeb and Barry, quite calmly, have explained to you how gentle, reasonable techniques have more positive effects on children. If you take issue with that, show me somewhere (there must be somewhere, right?) that can demonstrate the positive effects of parenting with violence (or physical discipline, if you prefer). I can’t find any.
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@violetwisp
What Tildeb’s and Barry’s explanation comes down to is that they have different ways of punishing a disobedient child. The notion that we can always reason with a wilful two-year old is just silly. Moreover, as you suggested your post, “punishing children”, ANY form of punishment can be taken to an extreme.
The Bible doesn’t actually say we have to spank a child, and that is not really the issue. What the Bible says is that if we punish a child because we love that child and want them to behave, that child will survive and be better off for it.
What you are preoccupied with is making other parents raise their children your way. Not my problem.
Spanking a child is not child abuse. Child neglect — not teaching a child to behave — is child abuse. Yet silly people get all worked up about spanking. That’s mostly just because a few people lose it, and the bruises and broken bones are obvious. News papers can get vivid photos, and the virtue signalers can tell us how they would never do that.
🙄
I suppose stupid sadists also beat kids half to death, but abuse has many other, more subtle forms.
Neglect, I suspect is a more common problem. Even if we feed, cloth, and shelter a child, but we still neglect that child if we don’t teach that child self-discipline. Until we learn self-discipline, we are not prepare for life.
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I’m wondering, Citizen Tom, if you’ve ever read any of the stories on Homeschoolers Anonymous? You might get an eye-opener from some of those young people who’ve been brought up to ‘obey’. (that’s what you are getting at)
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Eye-opener? Yeah. Sure.
When I know people who homeschool their children or were homeschooled, why do I have to read stories on Homeschoolers Anonymous?
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Your response says it all.
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Do you know how often I get requests to read this, that, or some other such thing from someone who disagrees with me? I generally don’t bother making such requests.
I have little library on my blog. I believe that if we want to understand history, including the formation of the ideas and beliefs that pertain to our culture, we need to read historical documents. We need to read the written works that made an actual difference in what people believed and how they behaved.
What do we get in the public schools? We read textbooks that supposedly tell us about historical works. They don’t.
Anyway, I already have enough to read. Thank you.
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That’s kind of pathetic Tom. I expect I have much less time on my hands generally than you do, and I had a brief look, even giving you the link to a specific post you could skim through in 3 minutes.
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The typical response from someone who is desperately afraid his views might be challenged.
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Tom, I think you maybe don’t understand what is being said here at all. It probably is a completely new concept for you and it sounds like you’re just trying to squeeze it within your frame of reference.
I have a two year old at the moment – he’s a whirlwind delight. When he is ‘naughty’, he is invariably, and I do truly mean without exception, either tired, teething, hungry or ill. We deal with the cause of upset – using distraction, medication, altering naps, or giving him something to chew on. When he chucks food about at the table, I ask him to please stop and sometimes he does. He understands. If I can’t get him to stop, I remove the food so he doesn’t make a mess. It’s not a punishment, it’s a simple practicality, and (ideally) there is no anger or resentment attached to it on my part. Do you know what? They grow out of it. It doesn’t take long – probably about as long as any ‘punishment’ you might choose would take to work.
Children follow role models. You show them love and respect, they give you, and everyone else, love and respect.
Can you think carefully about the simple logic for one minute please? You punish children, they find a way of avoiding punishment – they aren’t learning a lesson about the situation – they feel pain, resentment and often anger. You talk to the child about why certain behaviours aren’t acceptable or appropriate, you help them develop true responsibility, based on compassion and reason.
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That’s nice (old meaning of the word “nice”).
You are traipsing over the same ground. Tire, hungry, sick adults become difficult. So I have no doubt two-years do too. In fact, when our children were unhappy for no apparent reason, our first concerned is that were not well. My lady is a nurse.
It is fairly apparent when two-year children are up to some kind of mischief. Since they have not learned to disguise their motives, it can be amusing to watch them scheming.
Just because someone does not do it your way or my way does not make it wrong. In a free society, we set limits, but we don’t try to make other people do it our way. It is a waste of time. Unless a parent is mentally ill or has a serious emotional problem, they are not going to hurt their child.
Do some parents have mental or emotional issues? Yes. Don’t you think you would be better off worrying about a real problem?
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Two year-olds SCHEMING? I am shaking my head. . you are a sick man, Tom.
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You don’t think two-year olds can think, and I am sick?
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To THINK is not to SCHEME. Children are naturally curious. Why do you give that a negative connotation?
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Tom, let me spell this out to you before Carmen does, it’s the fact that you attach a negative label to it. Two years olds are transparent thinkers and gorgeous cuteness in action when they’re trying to work something out, or work their way round something. It’s beautiful and hilarious and obviously the only way they can develop. It’s not a negative behaviour that requires a violent response.
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You mean thinking can be a good thing? WOW! I will have to try it some time.
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Don’t be down on yourself Tom. I can see you’re trying, you’re just completely avoiding the difficult questions.
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This is a real problem. I hate seeing children needlessly suffering. There’s simply no reason to approach parenting with any form of violence.
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When people speak of virtue signaling and a bleeding heart, what are they talking about? It is about setting the threshold for suffering so low it is an insult to those who actually are suffering.
You want to understand pain? Then study the matter. Imagine being skinned alive. Then compare that to a spanking.
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Okay, so because being skinned alive is more painful than being spanked, we should encourage people to inflict physical suffering on children for no reason (given you haven’t been able to demonstrate what it achieves)? I mean, really, can you hear yourself? I’m telling you I don’t like seeing distressed children, and all you can say is it’s more painful to be skinned alive … what is going on …
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It’s called being so entrenched in your thinking that you refuse to concede any damned thing. Oh, to be so arrogant — a trait most fundamentalists cherish.
violetwisp, here’s another blogger I think you’d be interested to read. I know full well who WON’T be reading her, (even though they ought to) and she’s an astute young woman who has quite a following.
This is one of her most popular posts:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2012/10/how-i-lost-faith-in-the-pro-life-movement.html
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Looks like a really good post, I hope Tom has time to read it.
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I won’t hold my breath thinking he’ll read that. It might make him THINK – or wait, is it SCHEME?? 🙂
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Oh don’t. It does truly disturb me that such negative motives are assigned to natural, healthy behaviours.
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Being concerned about the emotional, psychological, and physical safety for a child is hardly virtue signalling. There are far more effective and loving methods to teach children how to exercise self-discipline without causing them intentional suffering. Most rational parents who know how to use these methods choose them over hitting their kids. The benefits are many. This is a practical solution to achieve the goal of teaching self-discipline., Spanking is not. It is diametrically opposed to the goal and so the reasons you give for implementing them are founded on incorrect belief. But then, you’ve always had a real problem differentiating your beliefs from the reality you think they describe.
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I’ve just had a look at the site that Carmen suggested. I don’t think I’ll read any more posts, but here’s one that shows you what happens when controlling and disciplining children becomes the main concern https://homeschoolersanonymous.org/2013/04/03/home-is-where-the-hurt-is-marys-story-part-two/
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See my last comment.
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A physical assault on a smaller and vulnerable child teaches self-discipline, you say. So, following your lead here, for you to learn more effective self-disciplined learning methods, shouldn’t it be perfectly acceptable – indeed, embraced – for you be physically assaulted by a bigger and more powerful person in order to facilitate you learning to think better?
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Madblog, when referring to my classroom experience you say, “But the fact that discipline problems haven’t been a problem in her classroom only indicate that the kids have already been taught how to behave by someone else.”
Not at all. In fact, I point out these same kids ARE the ‘problem’ kids in other classrooms and that this is a clue.about where the real problem lies. These kids ARE the ones most often punished, and yet – mystery of mysteries – still act out there but not here. That too is a clue. I also explained that many of these kids were of especially challenging needs at the ends of the learning spectrum – usually fetal alcohol at one end and really fast thinkers who effortlessly learn complex ideas at the other… a cohort famous for causing disruption in classrooms everywhere. So why not mine?
My point was the need for all of us who care about kids to think differently about achieving desired goals we have for kids, to spend the time and effort before kids’ behaviour comes to the point of ‘requiring’ punishment. Discipline is indeed and unequivocally an essential component… but only effective if the discipline comes from the kids themselves.
This is trick..
This self-discipline is what parents really want to teach their kids, for their kids to use wisely and to positive effect. But it has to be taught.
Punishment does not achieve this goal. It may stop a behaviour in the presence of the punisher, but it does not teach self-discipline. It teaches avoidance. It teaches to shift blame. It teaches kids to go to effort to not get caught. There really are much better ways, more effective ways, longer lasting ways, to get kids to develop a very strong sense of self-discipline when it comes to their own behaviour.
It’s a developmental thing.
And parents really help themselves and their home life when they are able to teach kids how to do this, how to control and moderate and channel their impulses and emotions and actions, how to pay attention to potential consequences first and enjoy the benefits of doing so. It certainly helps develop a far less stressful, far more enjoyable, home life for everyone!
What I’m saying is that a fun-filled yet disciplined classroom where real learning takes place (which is why I mentioned I could demonstrate effectiveness by great attendance, much better standardized test results, and much improved remedial advances) in an environment kids want to be in can be achieved even with the most behaviourally challenged students. But it takes a lot of in-depth, goal oriented, child developmental knowledge, and then a lot of work on the part of the teacher implementing this in a cohesive, social, and enjoyable way. What I hope to impart is that the same is true at home, where the environment of self-discipline and fun and laughter and safety and deep bonds of affection, respect, and support can be equivalently lived day in and day out…. but only by parents willing to gain the knowledge and ability and have the desire and dedication to do this work first.
Why wouldn’t more parents choose to create such a home? Isn’t life stressful enough?
So how do we know how we’re doing, how our parenting of discipline is working out? By the child’s behaviour. That’s our ongoing litmus test. A misbehaving child is reflection of us, of our parenting. I know this is an uncomfortable idea . But it is central to us – the parents, the teachers, the school administrators – to appreciate why this allows us the means to constantly have our current methods evaluated and re-evaluated for effect. This approach feeds right into the desire kids have to please their parents, to be worthy of praise for their very real efforts, to feel a part of the family and not a burden to it, and so on. It builds teamwork and a sense of acceptance when mistakes happen and use them to learn from and become better.
My overall opinion is that punishment is, in fact, counter-productive.to achieving this goal of self-discipline. There are much better methods, methods I’m sure parents would choose if they could buy it a grocery store off the shelf. The bottom line is that punishment simply does not do the job so many caregivers think, hope, pray it does. We need – collectively – to think differently about what it is we’re trying to teach kids when we use the term ‘discipline’ and hold ourselves and not our kids accountable for the results we achieve… demonstrated as it is through their behaviour.
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My congratulations to you on your success as a teacher, and I admit that I have merely skimmed the conversation. Kudos–you know what you’re doing there.
But no one here disagrees with those parenting goals. All the positive enforcements are present in the household where caring parents employ some physical tools in their training of their children. My point was that you and vw are ascribing selfish and ignorant motives to any methods but the specific ones you espouse. The words you use to describe CT’s parenting choices are unfair and rather arrogant. But I’ve said enough about that already.
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I like it when a student – child or adult – says to me what a ‘great teacher’ I must be for him or her to get such a really high mark on some test (and almost always perfect in math). I always say, “Don’t blame me; you’re then one who demonstrated what you know. I just helped teach you how to show it.”
And I believe that.
Each child demonstrates where they are achieving self-discipline by their behaviour and so it really is a reflection of how good a job the child’s mentor is at teaching – at finding the means – for the child to succeed, to improve, get better, develop, mature… move towards maturity by demonstrating self reliance and self discipline upon which being a responsible and moral adult rests.
As you are perfectly aware, every child is different. So some methods work better with this person than with that. Some work better at this stage of development but not that one. (CT’s ideas of ‘fixed rules’ make s this recognition difficult.) My reason for commenting was to say we can figure out how good a job we’re doing as a parent by the ongoing behaviour demonstrated by the child. The child’s behaviour is a reflection not of their ‘nature’ (as so many religious folk have been taught to believe) but of their current level of development. This changes all the time. Good parenting aids this development and reinforces success towards maturity. That approach eliminates this so-called need of turning to punitive measures and imposing them on the child. Under my philosophy, good parents who believe in the efficacy of punishment should be taking a child’s poor behaviour and punishing themselves for failing as an effective teacher. Such parents would quickly learn that the bad behaviour they have to experience (because they haven’t effectively taught the child how to show appropriate behaviour yet) is punishment enough! The same is also true for the child: just as getting a really poor mark on a test, for example, is punishment enough, learning how to get great marks is really the issue; behaving really poorly is punishment enough; learning how to behave well through self-discipline is really the issue.
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Again, not telling me or anyone something we don’t know. Far be it from me to tell you that you don’t understand all of this in reference to your own children. Or you to me, or CT.
We all here, ALL, relate to our kids on a positive basis, we all love our children, we all try very hard to understand each one because they are all totally unique.
Believe me, I am a hopeful, positive, encouragement-oriented parent. Bringing in any kind of correction is the last thing I want to do. But there are times when a kid just won’t have it. An ODD kid will seek conflict when there is no need. A kid with biploar-like markers doesn’t perceive the situation the same way you do, but may be seeing things through the filter of an emotionally hypercharged narrative of which you’re unaware. I can tell my OCD child to “do the best you can” and it makes no sense to him.
Simply staying on the positive and taking the path of least resistance–just doesn’t satisfy for many kids, or at least for many kids at some stages of their development.
Much more to be said, but really that’s all the time I can give.
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Do you have some book or article recommendations for what you consider best practices, tildeb?
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All kinds over thirty years. But I find child development studies the most compelling because they are producing longitudinal trends that are very clear: punishment is the least effective form of teaching self-discipline. But I do note that it causes immediate cessation of a behaviour; it just doesn’t teach what many parents assume it teaches and it is for this reason that I continue to urge parents to find better tools, ones that can actually demonstrate effect towards the stated goal of the child developing self-discipline and maturity. I have found that positively addressing the motivation of undisciplined behaviour to be far more effective for both the parent and the child where change is a cause for celebration recognizing real achievement. Unlike punishment, both the parent and the child reinforce bonds of affection when this method is used.
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” I’m sure you’re aware that a case can easily be made that raising children as you recommend is cruel and unloving” No, I’m not aware of this. What do you mean? If such a case exists, does it have the backing of qualified professions, has it been subject to peer review? Or is it a case only made by people who beat up their children following a wonky interpretation of Old Testament passages?
“Would you enjoy it if I were to write a post about you, by moniker, describing your child-care as cold, careless, irresponsible and lazy? How about if I then accused your spouse or partner that way? Would you think that was quite appropriate?”
I’d be interested to hear your opinion. I’m more than open to changing how I deal with my children. And if anything you said sounded like it would useful (and was based on some form of professional evaluation accepted by a broad cross-section of experts) I’d certainly act on it. No-one has all the answers, and anything that improves a child’s life is worth knowing.
“Imagine I’m in the room with you, and you relate an incident with your child in confidence. I leave the room and go home. I have a few friends over, and re-tell the tale with my own embellishments and certain verdicts on the wrongness of your parenting, calling into question your character and beliefs, and your motives as a parent.That OK? Because that’s what you did here.”
What have I embellished here madblog? I copied and pasted his words. I was also very careful to state that I don’t judge her, as I have made awful decisions in the heat of the moment too. Did you read the post at all? My point was that this incident isn’t an example of something that ‘worked’ and if it involved physical suffering on the part of a two-year old child (which he suggests), it’s a terrible example to be sharing trying to illustrate how punishment might ever be appropriate. It’s a horrible thought and from what you say I’m guessing you find it horrible too but don’t want to admit it because it’s not your tribal ‘side’ of the argument, so you have to find something else to moan about.
“Second, those kids have been successfully disciplined/ trained, probably some of them with precisely the methods you don’t approve.” What a convenient assumption for you to make! Perhaps he didn’t state it on this particular post, but I know for a fact that the other teachers in the school who had problems with kids couldn’t understand how he managed to work so easily with them.
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To continue: I think children do best when we understand that they are children and we are not surprised at childish behavior. Our methods for training them may differ, but they are all aimed at transforming a totally-self-oriented human with little capacity for reasoning (at first) into a self-controlled, other-centered, moral, discerning and critically thinking adult.
As we do that, it helps if we understand what the child’s capacities are at the various stages of development. It also helps if we understand the bits of human nature which are common to all. Nuff said.
It sounds as though you (on the side of talk-therapy training) are used to basically naturally compliant children. I was not. My husband and I were people-pleasers and easygoing as children. My first child was a shock to the system. Oppositionally defiant from very early (from birth), she challenged every attempt to direct behavior or attitudes. She would die on every hill, no matter how silly or pointless. She later explained: “Even if I knew that what you were telling me made sense, I COULD NOT do as you asked BECAUSE you asked.”
Human beings often do not act in their own best interest. Especially when we are not yet guided toward self-control and good judgement, we will often do exactly the worst thing and do it with our eyes open. We are born foolish and totally selfish and only with training and growth do we learn to even care what’s right, or what anyone else thinks about our actions.
No, vw, the disapproval of the parent is not enough for most kids to correct their behavior. Certainly not mine.That comment almost made me do a Danny Thomas all over my laptop.
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Madblog states, “We are born foolish and totally selfish and only with training and growth do we learn to even care what’s right, or what anyone else thinks about our actions.”
This is factually wrong. It is contrary to amassed data from child psych studies. And it sets the stage to think about children incorrectly from the get go.
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Really tildeb? What world do you live in?
A child of two before he can talk, with the chocolate candy in his hands behind his back, with his mouth oozing brown liquid, shaking his head sideways ‘saying’ no when asked if he took the candy………….
……….no learning here necessary tildeb, to observe that foolishness is bound in his heart. Innate. Self serving and lying. Sure, you think it is cute, but in this if one is honest, he can see that mischief is evident and ready to be unleashed
Left to his own devices, and without discipline, here is a kid who will grow like a weed expecting everybody to look the other way at his thievery. He will then cite them as clueless at his superior skills of lying, stealing, and rebellion.
Then again, if one is honest……………..
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I sincerely hope you have nothing to do with children CS. Your attitude is despicable.
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Go ahead carmen and try to find fault with pointing out the inbred self protective nature of the kid who lies and steal, while denying it.
Sad thing is, they can be excused, but when adults do it repeatedly, never having learned…………..
Key word there: honest. Uncomfortable, but true.
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Carmen, CS is demonstrating his ignorance and his imported belief in his assumptions. Knowledge plays no part. That’s all this is. (Would regular beatings have helped to ‘learn him good’?).
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This bud’s for you sir tildeb.
I made no mention of ‘beatings’ for a kid who stole chocolate and lied about it. I simply pointed out your narrow view on the obvious shortcomings and charlatan acts of human nature.
Look up the word ‘chastisement’ by the illustrious and brilliant mind of Mr. Webster. It’s a good word, and a bible truth.
I’ve never ‘beaten’ anyone. I have paddled as needed, but so what. When done correctly, it usually is needed but once, and reaps lasting benefits, as opposed to the lawless, unbridled, and selfish acts clearly seen on a daily basis, and yes, by adults too, who have no sense of right and wrong.
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As it happens, Tildeb, I am – right now – in the classroom. (It’s noon hour) I so appreciate your responses on this thread. I also just had two young fellows in for detention. Thankfully, I am well aware of typical Gr. 9 behaviour. Our discussion was an effort to get to the specifics of their inattention in class (and the resulting missed opportunities on their part), their understanding of my role in imparting the lesson for that period, and to help them understand why I was upset with them. (I raised my voice – something that rarely happens).
The ultimate goal of any adult/student interaction – in my mind, anyway – is to aid young people in learning, whether it be the lesson for the day or learning about themselves and how society works. I would be doing them a major disservice if I had the base mentality of thinking them flawed – “lawless, unbridled” – human beings. In fact, I think the opposite.
So it grieves me to read comments from fundamentalists who have knowledge at their fingertips and refuse to seek it out. Indeed, it upsets me to realize there are people bringing up children who have this same mentality. No wonder we have to spend so much time on building self-esteem in so many students. How tragic.
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Thanks, for that, Carmen.
As for religiously inspired parenting, same old, same old, I’m afraid. Those who choose ignorance over knowledge in the Information Age do so for their own reasons that have nothing to do with finding out what’s true, nothing to do with doing what’s in the best interests of the child, and everything to do with selfishness and irresponsibility… the very traits they magically think will be beaten out of children of the next generation after failing so spectacularly to beat it out of this one!
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Perhaps tildeb you never heard of King Solomon, who, as a man of letters and culture, was ahem, much wiser than you and I combined, and would tear you to shreds for misinterpreting his sage counsel as to your ‘beatings.’ He never suggested beating any child. Neither have I. It is a strange habit some have of mis-reading others words.
Lest their be any defaming of his name or character, I would remind you he was unequalled in his learning of botany, zoology, astronomy, literature, agriculture, government, poetry, the arts, economics, and of course, spiritual insight into the Creator and His ways, who by virtue of His knowledge of humanity at every level, I can say with confidence that his advice on rearing children surpasses any godless advice from a thousand Dr. Spocks.
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I’m sorry,are you telling me that you believe that a two-week old baby can have concern for others? A small baby cannot even distinguish self from not-self. Being self-centered at that helpless stage is absolutely necessary. It is advantageous. But it is not advantageous to remain so, and so we gradually develop a capacity to learn otherwise.What are you talking about?
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You’d be surprised just how early infants, when capable, begin to show moral concern for fairness and reciprocity, preference for good, and sharing.
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Just LOL. Basic brain development.
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Honestly madblog, I don’t know what to do with you. More assumptions not based in reality. Why do you expect I think so long and hard about this? My children, especially the first, are as pig-headed, willful and opinionated and their parents. I struggled terribly in the early years, as desperately in love with my daughter as I am, trying to work out how to get her to comply, how to avoid tantrums, how to get her to sleep. She’s a spirited beast in the best of sense of it, but it isn’t half hard work. She’s smart too (aren’t they all?) and what definitely works best with her is avoidance and communication. Barry’s advice about making her analyse situations herself has been a life-saver. I don’t think for one moment I have all the answers, but I know for certain that punishment doesn’t work. It can bring compliance, but breeds resentment and encourages avoidance tactics that don’t instruct the children how to make sensible decisions. And it’s simply morally reprehensible – which I would have thought Christians could recognise. 🙂
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Perhaps you’re making the same error you think I’ve made here. You clearly believe that some of us just haven’t given any thought to our parenting choices, that we’re blindly repeating some cruel archaic outrages upon our kids, and you’re all too happy to rush to a public forum to say so. What possible reason could there be but virtue-signalling?
It would seem to be a surprise to you to hear that CT loves his kids absolutely as much as you do, and that all of us have had to work very hard indeed to arrive–if we ever do “arrive”–at our various methods of bringing up our beloved kids.
I don’t have “normal” children. My husband and I were gifted with six brilliant and very interesting children. In the case of each one, we, and especially I, found it necessary to become an advocate, a first-line researcher, a primary diagnostician. Before we could even look for help, we had to have some idea what we were trying to manage, and the issues were different for each child. The grab bag of acronyms at my house is large and impressive–ODD, OCD, possible bipolar, just the first few.
My friends read parenting books and applied the given wisdom with fair success.
My kids weren’t even in those books.
My pediatrician thought I was using hyperbole when I told him my baby didn’t sleep. Why did my child actually enjoy hours of circular argument, which left her perfectly content and me a demoralized wreck? Reasoning with her? Do you know how hard I tried to reason with her, understand her, communicate with her, reach her? If we refained from feeding her need for stimulation, she found a way. This kid THRIVED on confounding our attempts to be reasonable and fed off the stimulation of the conflict. She needed it. We adored her but there was no right answer; her particular needs didn’t allow that there could be a solution. This is just example #1.
In spite of guesses, I have not taken the litmus test given here–I’ve not said whether I have approved of corporal punishment, or not; because it was beside the point.
My children are grown now. They are all brilliant, capable and wise. But each one carries a mountain of weight on his back . In order to navigate life, each one has roadblocks, detours, extra issues to work through–before he can do what most do without a thought. The mountains they have climbed, just to lead productive lives–and they still have a lot to work out.
Please do not continue to make the simplistic decision that some people, like you, love their children, and others, like me, don’t. Don’t go out in public and accuse someone of parental cruelty when you know .00000000001% of 100% of the information, especially since you need to fill in the blanks with your judgemental and contemptuous narrative.
Suffice to say, I wouldn’t in a million years think of condemning your parenting skills or your lack of affection for your kids. And even if I thought so privately, it would remain private. I make only one comment there–I hope you will teach your children to have more compassion and civility than you have modeled here.
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“My pediatrician thought I was using hyperbole when I told him my baby didn’t sleep. Why did my child actually enjoy hours of circular argument, which left her perfectly content and me a demoralized wreck? ”
LOL! Oh gosh, I empathize! There were so many visits to the doctor because our youngest never slept. I got no help at all, even though I’d been a mom for some 20 years already and just new there was something unusual going on here. Today she’s absolutely brilliant, but hyperactive, dismantles absolutely everything in the house, and never met a circular argument she didn’t like.
One of the hardest parts about being a parent is all the criticism and judgment from others who have absolutely no idea what you’re dealing with on a daily basis. All they know is that if it were them, they’d be doing it a whole lot better.
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Thank you for the understanding! Life is never dull, though at times I wish it was. Right?
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Madblog, you will notice that I have condemned both corporal punishment and believing in a fixed nature for kids because both interfere with effectively teaching self-discipline. I have also repeatedly said that if parents had access to better methods that they knew worked, they would use them.
But first, why is it so difficult for so many parents to actually consider looking for these more effective methods? Why all the negative assumptions about children and how to ‘teach discipline’?
Well, this is where we get into parental assumptions about children and their ‘need’ for punitive parenting. I introduced compelling evidence – my classrooms, not to mention my home life – that such methods were available and produced far better results. I have also said that these methods I used in classrooms work just as well at home. I pointed out that the methods worked very well with children at either end of the learning spectrum – from FAS (which is probably the most challenging condition for behavioural issues because it includes the autism and non compliant spectrum) right up to what we call ‘gifted’ students – students famous for causing tremendous disruptions with flair and imagination as well as cruelty. You understand this because your kids offered the same range of challenges but in very different ways. That’s why I point out to people like CS and CT that believing in a ‘fixed’ method to repsond to a ‘fixed’ character/nature is pretty well a guaranteed method to cause at least as many problems as it may appear to solve. The very worst method is punitive… if the goal is to teach self-discipline. That’s what’s being questioned here… corporal punishment is about something else entirely, and usually all about immediately restoring a feeling of power and control to the parent at the expense of the child. This is not loving; this is abuse.
Behaviour is the outward sign of what’s going on inside. We can figure out motivation by the bahaviour itself and have an opportunity to respond appropriately to the motivation and not the act. As soon as we assume the behaviour is due to a fixed nature – like a ‘rotten’ kid or some universal selfishness characteristic – we shut ourselves away from seeing the behaviour as it really is – an indication of immediate interior motivation… for various emotional and psychological and neurological reasons that we can effectively address at the right time and in the right way with the right method; instead, by assuming a ‘fixed’ nature, we make our job as parents and teachers just that much more difficult. And we as teachers and parents pay dearly for this with increased stress and anger and feelings of frustration. And that’s the last thing we want when trying to parent well!
A good starting point is to rule out corporal punishment altogether. Once that tool is no longer accessible, only THEN can we earnestly begin to seek better tools. And the child’s behaviour indicates how we’re doing (NOT how the child is doing but how well WE are doing in our teaching), how well our methods are working. A spoiled and unruly child is just as much an indication of poor parenting as the child who takes what doesn’t belong to them, refuses to tell the truth, throws tantrums, and causes harm to others. What’s the motivation and why isn’t it being addressed appropriately by parents?
So my advice is to rule out believing ‘fixed’ negative characteristics so that effective understanding of motivation can be applied to selecting the right response method.
The very notion of development includes necessary change, and so holding on to negative assumptions about fixed characteristics and fixed responses to them cannot help but impede even the very best efforts by the child. And parenting is all about the child.
I think it is far wiser a path to assume that loving, non punitive parental guidance using better teaching methods tailored to the child in that place and at that time to address motivation works far more effectively achieving what parents should want for their child: learning how to implement self-discipline appropriate to the situation. A child that does that is a joy for everyone. I know this motivational approach pays huge dividends for every shade of child I have ever encountered… a dividend not least of which is a reduction in pain and suffering imposed on the child by the misguided parent who thinks this equates with ‘teaching discipline’ and the pain and suffering from guilt taken on by the parent who feels they must deliver it. Getting rid of believing in the efficacy of punishment and discarding this notion of fixed characters are a positive developmental change that far more PARENTS need to achieve if they wish to enter the ranks of good parenting.
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I’m not sure why you think this is an answer to my comment?
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“Please do not continue to make the simplistic decision that some people, like you, love their children, and others, like me, don’t. Don’t go out in public and accuse someone of parental cruelty when you know .00000000001% of 100% of the information, especially since you need to fill in the blanks with your judgemental and contemptuous narrative.”
Once again, madblog, read the post. The only thing I judge here is CT using the story of a two-year being locked outside in intolerable heat to try and explain why punishment ‘works’. I don’t agree that punishment works, and I’m disgusted that someone would treat a two-year old (or any child) in that manner and brag about it. I know nothing about the full picture of CT and his wife’s family and obviously wouldn’t presume to judge anything else about the situation. But to suggest I can’t use that example he freely gave in a public place to state my case again using punishment on children, is pathetic. It reveals more about your insecurities as a parent that you’re so incensed about it.
“Suffice to say, I wouldn’t in a million years think of condemning your parenting skills or your lack of affection for your kids. And even if I thought so privately, it would remain private.”
I actively seek feedback on how I am with my children, and discuss how I could have better handled specific incidents all the time. Being a parent is a learning process. If anyone thinks my parenting skills (such as they are) are harming my children in any way, of course I would want to know! What kind of parent wouldn’t?
An interesting thing to note here madblog is that I’m raising my kids in a different generation to you (although we may well be similar ages), and there’s been a significant shift in accepted thinking on using violence on children. Smacking, which was seen as completed normal not so long ago, is completely unacceptable now and illegal in many countries. This is another reason I wouldn’t presume to judge what people did at a certain point in time in their own particular circumstances, but I will take every opportunity to make the point that that kind of behaviour is no longer acceptable, is thoroughly illogical and is as cruel as everyone deep down suspected it is.
Human society evolves, often for the better, and understanding how we can provide the best environment for children is something we’re constantly working on. Left to my own devices, I’d probably be a smacker who knew deep down it was wrong – I’m a terrible control freak and I was raised thinking that children should ‘behave’/follow orders/be robots by force if necessary. It’s a steep learning curve for me too.
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Authority is something a person earns or forces on others. The latter may be an attempt to show love, but it is in no case love itself. I have no kids of my own, so I guess it is easy for me to speak, but I have attended to my sisters kids when they were little (and I was very young) and I learned a thing or two. It would never have even occurred to me, that a kid that acts up even could be hit. To hit a kid!!! It just seems sick.
My parents never hit me, nor my sisters and all of us have grown up to be responsible members of the society. Not punishing us corporally did not mean they were ever indifferent, if we did anything wrong. On the contrary, it took more of involvement from them to set things right. Corporal punishment is the easy way out, but it does not teach morals to the kids, it teaches might makes right, and that is a very dangerous “traditional value”.
My sisters families never corporally punished their kids, and in turn their kids have not engaged in such barbarism. I think, that one of the reasons we had no corporal punishment in my family was because my grandad had been to a concentration camp, and violence was simply not his way. But it might be even an older tradition in our family and in my culture at large. It has been illegal and generally morally condemned here in Finland for decades anyway. It was more or less abandoned at approximately the same time we ditched our union with the Nazi Germany (not a mere coincidence there).
Sure, coming up with intelligent solutions to the problems why kids act up, must have been a bit more demanding to my parents, but I bet they also found it fulfilling to come up with better ways of solving any problems.
The thing is, that those families in whose culture the easy way to the dark side, like for example to slap the kids, or otherwise corporally punish them are suffering from the cultural heritage, that has not given them the better tools to deal with kids. It is a typical symptom of conservatism, that the parents think, that this is necessary since, they themselves see themselves as having turned out just fine, despite or even as a result of being corporally punished. If the law takes away the only method a parent can force authority from their kid, like the threat of violence, they are at a loss, if they do not have anything else in their toolbox.
The real threat to society in this is, that kids who have not been taught morality, but instead this might makes right kind of sense of justice grow up to be adults, voters and act in a society towards authoritorianistic, ignorant, superstitious, tribally moralistic and fascistic society. That society is not bad only for the fascists themselves, their kids, but also for the rest of us.
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It is certainly an explanation for the present leader in the US being elected by a large percentage of evangelicals, isn’t it? As Dr. Phil would say, “How’s that working out for you?” 😦
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Interesting that in this discussion both SOM and CT have said they were horrible little children who needed physical punishment.
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Sounds to me like madblog is trying desperately to justify corporal punishment. (Hers and CT’s)
She’s failing miserably.
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Yes, that is the tragedy of it. They think they deserved the violence to set them straight, but in truth both of their perspective on themselves begins not from their very beginning. None of us remembers so far back as to be able to say that they were horrible little children before the violence was applied on them. It is a damaging behavioral model.
Blaming the victim may convince the victim of their guilt, especially if they are very young and as such impressionable. At the same time it gives this model of seemingly easy way to deal with kids. It seems to take a lot less effort to hit the child (or expose them to the elements) than to try to explain to the kid why something they did was wrong, especially so if you yourself have never been explained why something is wrong, rather just that you get a punishment if you get caught while doing it. Add to injury, such behaviour propagates itself by the fact, that a parent that teaches their kids this authoritarian model, feels they do not have to ever justify their actions to their kids, wether they themselves think it wrong or not – easy, dumb and ultimately harmfull.
There is something deeply primitive about this, and I do not mean just culturally, but also bioligically. Most animals are capable of revenge. It is one of the driving forces on what keeps animal individuals social towards each other, but more advanced animals are able to feel compassion and empathy and work from those for better social cohesion without the fear of imminent vengeance. The latter are obviously more advanced methods in comparrison to the simple revenge, not only because they manifest in “higher” more complex life forms, but also because they enable the society to function without violence towards itself.
Now that we humans are a global community, that affects the entire planet with our chosen actions, we should emphasize more on our empathetic skills to survive. If we rely on mere vengeance to give us social justice, we face extinction.
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Your entire argument is dark and ugly,Violet. It reminds me of the controversy over breast feeding versus bottle feeding. 50 years ago you were a disgusting pervert if you breast fed but today you’re an epic failure at motherhood if you ever give your kid a bottle. Nothing has really changed, kids will thrive regardless, the real issue is that there are people in the world so harsh, so condemning,so judgmental of others, they really believe they have to right to abuse and shame people, to mock and ridicule them with no awareness or empathy for the challenges they face. Yes Violet, such things really are emotionally and psychologically abusive.
Which is a pretty darn good argument for spanking, of adults at least.
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Apologies if I’ve offended anyone. I realise parenthood is a struggle and people can be very sensitive about the decisions they’ve made. As I’ve stated many times on this post, I don’t judge anyone for anything they do in the heat of the moment.
What I’m trying to establish here is the principles of best practice in child-rearing. Discipline involving physical violence is most definitely not one of them – and not one Christian who has come over here to moan that I’ve offended them has presented anything (anecdotal or otherwise) that challenges this.
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You care nothing about parenting, discipline, or children, Violet. Your sole purpose here is to attempt to mock and ridicule Christians, to stereotype us all as violent disciplinarians, so you can once again justify your vast moral superiority and non belief in God.
In truth you have failed epically, because none of us, not one single parent commenting here, meets your caricature of the abusive parent. Ironically however,in the process you do reveal yourself to be emotionally and psychologically abusive, disrespectful towards others, prone to bullying and mockery, shaming and control. If you were a man behaving in such a manner, I’d tell a woman to call a domestic violence help line, to seek shelter and safety, because such things have a way of eroding a person’s sense of self far more effectively then physical abuse ever could.
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I’m sorry you feel that way. I do enjoy the occasion giggle at strange Christian beliefs, but I take this one quite seriously.
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A tad hyperbolic, don’t you think, IB?
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Yeah, VW, showing appropriate concern for the welfare of children put at intentional risk by punitive parenting in the name of teaching ‘self-discipline’ is the real abuse here. It’s so harsh, so condemning,so judgmental of others, you really believe they you have to right to abuse and shame people with reasoned argument and rational alternatives, Terrible, VW. You must be such a nasty person. So… just shut up, go along with a tactic that often leads to child abuse and know that criticizing it for good reasons is a far, far worse abuse… on snowflake parents willing to use punitive measures on children but who cannot possibly survive without lasting harm such harsh abuse from you.
Good grief, but I had forgotten just how irrational IB22 is.
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Your sneering at the snowflakes is once again inappropriate tildeb. It’s all very well to be proud of the way you’ve raised your children and to be secure in the methods you were able to utilise. The people we’re discussing this with raised their kids in a previous generation where smacking was the norm. Some enlightening families and individuals like you and Barry’s managed to see past it, but being a parent is confusing at the best of times and I totally understand why people followed the norm. I also understand and sympathise with people who still don’t understand it can be harmful, and feel like their parenting (which is often the key achievement in their lives) is under attack. It’s a delicate subject, I’ve been there with my own mum.
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vw, “smacking” was quite controversial when I raised my kids too. Your new enlightenment is not new. The disagreement here is not generational.
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I’m sorry to hear that. It gives you few legs to stand on.
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But did I smack my kids? See–this is another example of your need to tribalize people. Us-them is the only place you feel comfortable. You might actually have to converse with people as though they have reasonable viewpoints which are different than yours otherwise.
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Well, that’s just it, Madblog. You say punitive parenting is reasonable. How reasonable is it to maintain or agree with a parenting practice that does not accomplish what it is supposedly used to accomplish, that can be demonstrated to not do the job assigned to it, that is still widely practiced and to much harm in some cases, in spite of these well-known shortcomings? We KNOW punitive parenting is counterproductive to teaching self-discipline. So continuing to do something in the hopes that doing the same thing will achieve different results is the opposite of reasonable. That’s the point where people should – the grown-ups – should change their opinion. If they don’t, then are you calling it reasonable to suggest these parents really need a good spanking to help them stop spanking children?
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That’s a great comment tildeb, sums up everything perfectly. Unfortunately madblog has conceded on another thread that she doesn’t actually read all the comments, and particularly finds yours make her eyes glaze over. While I can appreciate that point to a certain degree, I think it does reveal something important about the mindset of some of the people defending this position. Simply not interested in attempting to acquire knowledge or have real conversations.
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” Simply not interested in attempting to acquire knowledge or have real conversations”. I agree, violet wisp, which is why Tom – and probably IB and Madblog – will not read any of the stories from Homeschoolers Anonymous. If they don’t read those, then problems don’t exist with homeschooling families, simple as that. One wonders about their carefully crafted view of the world. It certainly isn’t reality.
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“You say punitive parenting is reasonable.”
I suggested it can be reasonable. But you again add your loaded terms.You keep needing to put me in one of two camps. You haven’t been able to hear what I’ve said (maybe not one simplistic view or the other!) because you’re instead intent on deciding I’m in the bad camp and must be lectured at.
Also I do not believe that you actually believe that ALL–ALL- experts agree that physical correction is ineffective. That is simply not true; there is virtually no subject on which ALL experts agree on a single view! Indeed there are many professional cases to be made that failing to provide your child with understandable and calm, clear and unconfusing guidance in right behavior, which may sometimes among other items employ mild physical correction, is a failure to the child, to the adult he will become, and to the society he will impact. That training is not short-sighted but is aimed at guiding the heart toward moral, kind, and respectful intent.
“We KNOW punitive parenting is counterproductive to teaching self-discipline.” We don’t KNOW any such thing; in fact, thousands of years of human history in which kind and merciful physical communication has been employed in turning children into adults puts the lie to that assertion.
You are talking about something other than responsible, loving, merciful, and mild physical correction.
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We don’t need to know if you smacked your kids as part of this conversation, or as part of my judgement above. The whole point (which you continually miss) is that it’s irresponsible to condone the use of violent punishments/spanking/whatever you want to call it, in light of the fact that ALL bodies of all ALL relevant professionals have demonstrated it’s more likely to cause harm than good.
Once again, if I’m wrong about this, I’ll be more than happy for you to correct me.
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I’m pointing out the delicate nature of parents who present hitting children as a less harmful event than the imaginary harm caused to them by being reasonably challenged for it. The sneering you are hearing is from me quoting the very words sent your way by IB22.
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