evidence for the benefits of spanking
I will not give any more time to this debate; I will not be finding sources.
There endeth my participation here.
(madblog)
At the risk of further enraging fellow blogger ‘madblog’, I’d like to share this comment she made during a discussion on the use of physical pain to punish children.
Madblog and some of her chums think it’s perfectly reasonable for parents to use physical force on their children, from any age, in order to ensure compliance.
Citizen Tom quotes the Bible to aid his case:
Proverbs 23:12-14 New King James Version (NKJV)
12 Apply your heart to instruction,
And your ears to words of knowledge.13 Do not withhold correction from a child,
For if you beat him with a rod, he will not die.
14 You shall beat him with a rod,
And deliver his soul from hell.
ColorStorm adds this piece of wisdom:
If I would draw a distinction between ‘beatings’ and a good bodily lesson, I would say scripture is correct with the idea of a rod. The hand is apt to be reflexive and immediate, where the paddle is a barrier, and done in love, without anger. Truly, this is going to hurt me more than it hurts you……..is a reality. Ask any parent.
Madblog and Insanity prefer to focus on being outraged by the insensitivity I show by re-sharing a story openly shared on the internet, and daring to have an opinion on parenting:
Your entire argument is dark and ugly,Violet. It reminds me of the controversy over breast feeding versus bottle feeding. 50 years ago you were a disgusting pervert if you breast fed but today you’re an epic failure at motherhood if you ever give your kid a bottle. Nothing has really changed, kids will thrive regardless, the real issue is that there are people in the world so harsh, so condemning,so judgmental of others, they really believe they have to right to abuse and shame people, to mock and ridicule them with no awareness or empathy for the challenges they face. Yes Violet, such things really are emotionally and psychologically abusive.
Which is a pretty darn good argument for spanking, of adults at least.
But at no point in any of these discussions do the supporters of parents’ rights to spank and beat with rods attempt to link their opinion on the matter to facts. At no point do they refer to sources or recommendations from any kind of professional body associated with childcare. At no point do they attempt to link their certainty on the matter to anything other than vague personal opinions and Bible quotes.
So this is an open call to people of a more sensible, scientific, thoughtful disposition to help me understand why anyone would protect an adult’s right to inflict physical pain on a child in the name of ‘discipline’. Anyone?
I see you lump me in with others by quoting them and not me. Sloppy or just dishonest? My vote is both.
My real question is why am I being notified of your new post? I unfollowed you.
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You must have clicked it twice by mistake. I got a follow notification a few days ago. 🙂
You’ve missed the point again, sigh. This post is about not being interested in evidence. I gave you the headline spot, so I expect you’re flattered in some way.
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I hope you’re not serious.
I never ever wanted to participate in a discussion about child-rearing, MY point was your behavior.
Please re-read:
“My original objection was that you were publicly shaming a woman you didn’t know…
Your answer, and I believe Carmen’s, was that CT put it on the web, so it was fair game to malign this woman
Do you not find that disturbing? Have we come to the point where any tidbit of personal information we may let slip becomes our detractor’s fair prize, to make of it what he will; and have we decided that it is moral and right to do so? I shudder at the death of civil discourse and honest and noble communication. Aren’t we better than this?
In closing for good, I would like to apologize because I have indulged in some less-than-kind attitudes here as well, and I do know better. I should have modeled better behavior myself.”:
bye!
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Please re-read (for the third time) and explain how a shamed this woman:
“I’m well acquainted with the pressures of caring for more than one young child at the same time and have made some terrible decisions myself when facing challenging behaviour.”
“I don’t blame or judge Tom’s wife, above. She was doing what she had to do in the midst of baby-plus-toddler mayhem. As parents we sometimes don’t have time to think about why a child is doing something, but need to make sure everyone is safe first.”
From my comments:
“I know what it’s like to be sleep deprived looking after two young children – I don’t blame or judge anyone for anything they do, seriously. My point is that we don’t celebrate bad decisions.”
” If it offends his wife (who had no say in this, I guess, and may be embarrassed by it) I’ll remove the links to his name.”
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How about if you read all the other comments you made and then tell me you’re not shaming the woman, or CT, or any of those who disagreed with you. You used a lot of decidedly “negative” language and made a lot of unsavory accusations. Come on–at least be honest with yourself.
I conversed with a lady once who claimed: “I’m not bashing my church” and then proceeded to do exactly that for two days online, finishing up with “But I’m not bashing my church.” And she believed it too.
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Can you copy and paste some examples?
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No, just read virtually all the rest except for what you’ve copied.
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Seriously madblog? I think you can do better. If there’s anything that is offensive, I’d like to know. You haven’t even produced anything on this front.
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Interesting. Is shaming unacceptable in all cases? Or is shaming only unacceptable if it’s done to religious people?
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No, it’s unacceptable to shame anyone. Or don’t you agree?
Are we going to commit to no holds barred opportunism when it comes to personal destruction? If technology allows us to assassinate strangers, does it mean that we ought to?
Or are we better than that?
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You don’t thjink we should shame people such as the KKK? What about anti-semites? What about blatant liars and sexual predators?
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That’s an interesting concept. What do you think of the idea that monotheistic religious groups actually promote and rely on shame/honour culture?
Shame around sex (i.e. non marital), shame of not following doctrine, shame of not submitting to group authority. All of that qualifies as the instrumentalization of shame. Historically and even today in some groups total shunning and extreme things like honour killings still occur.
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How did I become the lead offender here? I am the one person who WASN’T discussing discussing physical punishment!
I DO NOT “think it’s perfectly reasonable for parents to use physical force on their children, from any age, in order to ensure compliance.”
Please be big enough to admit that you are flinging filth at me because you don’t like my pointing out your lack of fairness and civility. And try honesty for once.
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That’s interesting madblog, thanks for the clarification. It seems kind of odd that you’re jumping around posts trying to raise awareness of the harm it can cause, trying to divert to the discussion to your own personal sense of outrage. Don’t you think?
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Interesting discussion- but most interesting is the manner in which arguments (on each side) are formulated.
A rational argument, based in logic, will have two primordial characteristics. The first is it’s the answer to an open question. The second is standards can’t be applied selectively because then what you have is dogma and bias.
In a case such as this, for a deeper understanding, people have to ask: When is it acceptable to physically assault another human being? The answer to that will have multiple implications because we’re talking about logical progression and general parameters. The very things that underpin the law.
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I think people have to examine on what basis they hold their beliefs. Madblog and the others have tribally banded together to mock, and haven’t even considered if there might be another way of looking at things, or if the word of professionals should be considered. There’s a paranoia there, they don’t trust anyone.
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Such is tribalism. And if tomorrow the leader of the group changes his/her mind, they all follow suit ignoring everything they’ve said before.
Have you seen Insanity’s defences of Trump? Absolutely hilarious.
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No, over at hers?
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No, on some other Christian blog. She was in fact defending him having been divorced, had a child out of wedlock, cheating on his various partners. If he did it it’s simply a matter of “who are we to judge, everyone makes mistakes.” But if it’s someone who doesn’t belong to her religio-political group, then her standards change completely.
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Did you read SOM’s post? A classic!https://silenceofmind.wordpress.com/2017/02/17/why-brother-mario-of-buenos-aires-is-the-worst-pope-ever/?wref=pil
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That is just hilarious 😀 Infallibility is out the window then 😀
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But at no point in any of these discussions do the supporters of parents’ rights to spank and beat with rods attempt to link their opinion on the matter to facts.
Are you honestly surprised by this? They never do. Ever. Facts don’;t exist in their world. Just emotional impulses built on faulty ideas and a total absence of critical thinking.
There’s is the Post-truth world. They even have a word for their lies now: Alternative Facts
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Lord Edit, I call on Thee in all Your Mighty Goodness, help… *Their’s is the Post-truth world
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If you ask them for the rule they simply can’t formulate it.
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Because one does not exist.
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You mean you don’t like the *anyone under the age of 16 may be beaten by someone over 16* rule? 😀
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Can’t say I’ve heard that one, but it sounds reasonable 😉
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I am surprised! I’m really surprised they simply won’t read or comment on anything. Even just to say it’s a biased organisation. In fact, surely they can find some Christian organisation that has done ‘research’ to say spanking it good? It’s sheer laziness.
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They do have that Christian book (by the Pearls ?) on how to beat your child senseless with bats and whips and chains and lengths of rubber hosing, but they seem rather shy in citing that.
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I wonder if it’s lurking in the back of their minds.
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Or on their bookshelves.
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Only in the delusional mind of an imbecile, (I’ll not include atheists in general) and having a warped view of reality, would one suggest that beating with whips, chains, hoses, and whatever else, constitutes a mockery of Solomon’s adage of ‘he that spareth the rod, hateth his son.’
The illustrious Noah Webster had much to say regarding true chastisement, which when done properly, and for the right reason, and when necessary, provides an immediate restoring of a relationship gone sideways. No violence at all. I’m not surprised that even your own kin have not slapped you silly for such stupidity.
And I dare say, the heart of a ten year old is the same in any generation; maybe your son is a little angel………..good for you, but many angels act like devils.
But of course the godless mind has no room for understanding what foolishness actually is, so it is no surprise that the rod of reproof that brings wisdom is laughed to scorn.
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You’re an ignorant simpleton.
Christian Michael Pearl’s “To Train Up a Child”
The Pearls recommend whipping infants only a few months old on their bare skin. They describe whipping their own 4 month old daughter (p.9). They recommend whipping the bare skin of “every child” (p.2) for “Christians and non-Christians” (p.5) and for “every transgression” (p.1). Parents who don’t whip their babies into complete submission are portrayed as indifferent, lazy, careless and neglectful (p.19) and are “creating a Nazi” (p.45).
On p.60 they recommend whipping babies who cannot sleep and are crying, and to never allow them “to get up.” On p.61 they recommend whipping a 12 month old girl for crying.
On p.79 they recommend whipping a 7 month old for screaming.
On p.65 co-author Debi Pearl whips the bare leg of a 15 month old she is babysitting, 10 separate times, for not playing with something she tells him to play with. On p.56 Debi Pearl hits a 2 year old so hard “a karate chop like wheeze came from somewhere deep inside.”
On p.44 they say not to let the child’s crying while being hit to “cause you to lighten up on the intensity or duration of the spanking.” On p.59 they recommend whipping a 3 year old until he is “totally broken.”
On p.55 the Pearls say a mother should hit her child if he cries for her.
On p.46 the Pearls say that if a child does obey before being whipped, whip them anyway.
And “if you have to sit on him to spank him, then do not hesitate. And hold him there until he is surrendered. Prove that you are bigger, tougher.” “Defeat him totally.” On p.80 they recommend giving a child having a tantrum “a swift forceful spanking.” On the same page they say to whip small children on their bare skin until they stop screaming. “Don’t be bullied. Give him more of the same.” They say to continue whipping until their crying turns into a “wounded, submissive whimper.”
On p.47 they recommend their various whips, including “a belt or larger tree branch” to hit children.
The Pearls recommend pulling a nursing infant’s hair (p.7), and describe tripping their non-swimming toddler so she falls into deep water (p.67). They recommend ignoring an infant’s bumped head when he falls to the floor, and ignoring skinned knees (p.86). They also say “if your child is roughed-up by peers, rejoice.” (p.81) And on p.103 the Pearls say if children lose their shoes, “let them go without until they (the children) can make the money to buy more.”
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Right, and Hitler was a Christian too remember…………….
As I said, only in the delusional mind would anybody suggest this behaviour is commendatory.
And it is you who continually searches and seizes opportunity to paint believers as morons.
If you think this is common behaviour by anybody, you should be on trial for stupidity.
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Ignorant simpleton.
Stop talking. You’re just noise.
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I think he has a point, in that even Christians who support spanking would condemn that. He just can’t make the line between supporting the occasional light spank on the bum and the slippery slope to abuse AND he has no interest in all the evidence showing it has no useful outcomes.
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The Pearl’s book is one of the best selling Christian books of all time. Evidently, there are many, many Evangelicals who fall in under that banner.
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Sure zande, revert to baseless insults, EVERY time your clock is cleaned.
But tkx for the compliment; you may recall Christ Himself was thought to have a devil, Paul a lunatic, and the apostles IGNORANT and unlearned.
Oh that your mind was so developed as these good people, able to cite things as they are, and not as you wish.
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Ah the legendery trickery of the atheist! Suggest an idea, it is irrelevant whether it has any basis in fact or reality………..and try to give your bastard thought wings.
Maybe you should provide the link, or do your usual cut and paste in full.so your friends can see just how diabolical you are.
Show your story. Maybe show his face. Show his age. And maybe just maybe, your kin will be able to discern just how far you will travel to paint decent people as monsters.
Then again, coming from one who thinks God is evil, no surprise.
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Trashed that last comment to ColorStorm.
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Too naughty? 😉
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Way too silly and out of order. I’m wagging a finger.
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You should let it stand Violet. My answer was enlightening, and the regular patrons should get a glimpse at the back roads that zande travels, and how he is put in his place by something better.
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I know what you mean ColorStorm but I think it’s too trashy to let let that kind of offensive comment hang around my classy blog. 🙂
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Gotcha.
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Christians have a whole theology around spanking. I remember reading that the Duggars are particular fans of “blanket training” – the idea is simple, take a young kid and set him or her on a blanket and order the child to stay. Whenever he or she wanders off of the blanket, “correct” him or her with physical discomfort and set them back on the blanket. Repeat as many times as it takes. It’s from a controversial book called “To Train Up a Child” written by Michael and Debi Pearl. Three unfortunate children died as result of their parents using the discipline advice from that book. I think that an average Christian would call it what it is: child abuse – and want it to end by any means. But there are always those of the more fundamentalist / conservative mindset that hate to compromise on anything Biblical because they’ve been taught to believe it’s the cure for whatever ails you.
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Oh don’t! It’s too upsetting to even think about. You’re right though, the average Christian would be disgusted and we shouldn’t overlook that. But there’s a hesitancy, even from Christians who might not spank, to condemn the use of force against children, simply because of what’s written in the Bible.
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Pingback: WHY IS THE DEBATE ON SPANKING SILLY? — UPDATE – Citizen Tom
I vividly remember my daughter throwing the mother of all fits in a shopping mall. I don’t remember what the problem was, but she was at the wonderful age of 3. I only recall that it was one of those moments where a child can summon a scream so loud and bone chilling that you think the police are going to arrive at any minute! And it was also one of those times where people often say “That child needs a good whooping!” But that is not what we did.
I took her out of the mall and away form her mother and brother, something she did want, and took her to the car. It got worse there because now she wanted mommy. I sat with her for 45 minutes until she finally calmed down. Then we had a nice chat about why we didn’t want her to act that way when she didn’t get what she wanted. She NEVER did anything like that ever again.
I think people who resort to spanking as the primary means of correcting unwanted behavior in their children are being lazy. It takes much more work NOT to spank.
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Superb answer. That’s exactly the point. Do we treat people as if they’re worthwhile human beings who are capable of thinking, or do we just hurt them until they comply? Physically hurting someone is simply admitting one didn’t have the skills, character or dedication to give the hurt child.
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Well Ark, I wish it was THAT easy. What I meant to say was that she never had a tantrum like THAT out in public ever again. She learned the lesson that day and it stuck with her. There were a few times when she thought about it and her mother or I would simply say, “Do you want to go out to the car?” and that really registered with her. She did NOT want to go out to the car because she was/is a total people person and thrives around other people. We still had a lot of work to do and I don’t want Violet or other young parents to get the impression that this is easy work! Raising Kids is not for the faint of heart and it is sure not easy. I made SO many mistakes as a parent and I think most parents would say that.
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Every day….
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@Jim
I concur wholeheartedly with Pink.
I doubt there are many parents who haven’t had the screaming-child-in-the-supermarket scenario to deal with at some point.
Your reaction needs to hailed.
That your daughter never threw a tantrum again demonstrates that even small kids are capable of understanding and can be reasoned with.
Well done, sir!
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I agree completely. I’ve had moments where I would have loved to show my children who is right with a show of (loving) physical force. It’s only after the moment has passed (and social conditioning has saved me from doing it!) that I realise how irrational and potentially dangerous it is. Where do you stop when it comes to compliance once you start expecting it by using force?
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Vwisp-
You should have called this rerun ‘the evidence of the hypocrite.’ Why?
Glad you asked. I’ll tell you.
It is well known that many around here make no distinction between a dog or a man, or a horse and a woman. Sound silly? Not if you do not believe that man has dominion over all the beasts of the earth.
A jockey ‘whips’ his horse and where is your outrage? Where is your scorn toward toward the cattle drivers? Why are you not rattled over the shepherds who rod their sheep?
Surely the discipline needed to control herds of animals cannot be lost on you. But wait. Animals are not better than people are they? Hmm, quite the dilemma for you.
And yet, animals show more decent behaviour than some people. So while some people bitch about a parents corrective measures, they train their dogs and miss the irony. The word hypocrite fits rather well.
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Still waiting for your outline on the foundational parameters of logic!
LOL
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I didn’t train my dog by hitting him. I used positive reinforcement. When I saw a good behavior, I rewarded him with a treat. When I saw bad behavior, I just said “no” – that’s it. You know what – he doesn’t fear me, he doesn’t cower, he doesn’t shrink back as if he’s expecting to be hit. He doesn’t have to because he knows that I’d never hurt him because I love him. Does he always listen? No. That’s what I love about him, his own personality and his quirks shine through. I wouldn’t want him to be a robot that obeys perfectly because that would destroy who he is as my best friend. Now tell me, why should I instill fear into my children?
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Fear? How about respect, love, consequences, authority. Maybe you should talk to the woman about the temporary inconvenience of childbearing, and ask them if they would trade their fleeting pain for a life brought into the world.
People are so narrow minded it’s truly pathetic.
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Narrow minded? I knew a kid whose parental guardian used to use his authority to beat respect and consequences into him in a very unloving manner. He didn’t survive it. His abuser was executed for what he did, but his last words were: “I’m an innocent man but … I get to go to heaven and I’ll see S. tonight … It’s God’s will that this take place.”
There has to be a better way.
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Beat? Terrorize? Violence? Sure doesn’t fit the dictionary’s definition of chastening, nor the wisdom of Solomon in the training of children.
You may as well cite the KKK in how not to launder sheets.
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Do you think that if any degree of physical harm against a child was unacceptable my friend might still be alive today?
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How many times does it need said that Violence is not in the same universe as child rearing.
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Do you think, then, at the very least – spanking should be a last-resort measure, used only if all other forms of discipline are to no avail? Do you think that – if something else works then a child ought not be spanked?
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It’s not my business to tell others how to raise their children, just offering a voice of sanity for those who choose the route of time tested common sense.
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The Bible’s time tested common sense involved stoning and gates – not all ancient wisdom is equal.
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http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/101/4/723
Here’s what the Peds guys think. They have citations, if anyone is interested.
Of course, what do they know.
After all, the pediatricians also think that vaccines don’t cause autism, and every idiot knows that vaccines most certainly do cause autism.
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Thanks, useful link. I used the APA on the other post but didn’t generate any enthusiasm. I wonder how many professional groups could say things along the lines of ” Corporal punishment is of limited effectiveness and has potentially deleterious side effects.” before the spanking supporters think twice. There must be some professional group that sides with them – Association of Whip Makers?
And thanks for the tip about vaccines. 😀
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Here’s one for the spankers:
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We are all the beneficiaries of our parents parenting efforts. The modeling is perpetuated generation after generation. Breaking the chain is hampered by the dominant cultures faith based code of acceptable behavior based on Iron Age world view. We know there are effective parenting strategies that do not apply corporeal punishment. It is imperative that new parents have access to effective non violent parenting techniques.
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