Gender roles and parenting
I’m currently lost in the endless whirlwind of parenting young children. It’s life on sensory overload – constant activity, talking, moaning, fighting, laughter and cuteness. I love escaping to my quiet desk at work and focusing on something different, using other parts of my brain. But it all leaves me with little mental energy or actual time for blogging. Except when we visit the in-laws. Luckily for me (and you!), we’re visiting the in-laws right now, and I have mental space to reflect on parenting techniques for children.
Parenting as an atheist is extremely difficult. I don’t have a ready-made book of rules that tells me how children should be treated or, more specifically, how to treat my daughter and my son distinctly according to their respective genitals.
Luckily for me, I stumbled across this fantastic post full of handy hints about how to limit the development of my children as individuals by thrusting invented roles on them as early as possible in life.
Here’s what I’ve learned:
1. My partner should involve himself less with our daughter than our son because of the non-matching genitals.
2. I should encourage my daughter to bat her eyelids so she can practise manipulating men with her looks.
3. Based on their genitals, children should be prepared for a predetermined role in life.
So, let’s be honest, this stuff makes me furious. I can’t think of anything more mindless than deciding for your children what they will be before they have a chance to express themselves and discover what makes them comfortable in life. There’s enough about life and society already that will attempt to limit their experience.
Some will push through it, and some will remain uncomfortable with who they are and what they are ‘expected’ to be in this short life – instead of exploring the possibilities at their own rhythm and pace.
Life can be an amazing opportunity to explore a beautiful world filled with fascinating people and experiences.
But in some cultures, it’s not about the growth and experiences of the individual contributing to wider society, it’s about fulfilling invented ‘roles’ of little actual value, reaching meaningless goals in a pitiful attempt to impress other human beings. Drive a big car, live in a big house, compare yourself to similar ant-like neighbours to feel good.
Preconceived gender roles are part of this nonsense – telling people what life should be, as if we are all the same. Surely it is of more value and sense to let individual children decide what is meaningful to them in their life.
Naval gazing about what a wife should be and trying to squeeze your daughter into that role is absurd and harmful. Leave the child be – to play, to read, to climb trees, to imagine, and ultimately decide for herself what actually exciting opportunities she might pursue in her own life.
I *hate* the idea of gender roles, having run into some absurd arguments in favour of them, from both MGTOWs/MRAs and the religiously devout. So far, from a religious perspective, I’ve encountered very similar arguments from Christians and Muslims, but I suspect I’d find similar arguments from the other major faiths as well.
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I guess it’s like they are looking for signs in nature for behavioural rules from a Creator. Female body make babies therefore female body make babies for man. It becomes a universal rule rather than a general observation and one option in life. There’s no reference to context it seems.
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Teach your kids antinatalism.
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Don’t need to teach them anything other than to evaluate facts for themselves. I expect you mean ‘present varied points of view and discuss their merits’? Or do you expect the non-religious to take a similar approach to the religious and force feed opinions?
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Is that how you’re approaching vegetarianism with them?
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Of course.
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So they eat meat?
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Their dad eats meat and he cooks half the week. The eldest says she’s vegetarian but refuses alternative protein sources so continues with fish, and any meat when she’s in the mood. I guess if we were both vege, meat wouldn’t be much of an option and the thought would be disgusting. I do definitely view it as personal choice given that most humans are omnivores. Obviously hope they’ll reject animal products when they can think it all through, but can’t make that decision for them.
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If your post is a summary of the article, the authors must be great at child rearing. I think they deserve a Nobel in Literature!
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She got advice from internet ‘experts’ on the matter. Because it’s tricky having daughters.
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Pop up and have a cachaça. I found a wickedly cool alambique last week, all hidden away in the mountains, run by old drunks so drunk they’ve forgotten they’re drunk. And you can fish there! And they have dinosaur chickens!
And I think you’ll enjoy this article: In Sweden’s Preschools, Boys Learn to Dance and Girls Learn to Yell… Or maybe not. Is it taking too far, or have they hit the sweetspot?
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Wow, sounds amazing! I don’t expect any form of freedom to roam until I’m 60, the chains are on, but I’ll definitely come visit then! 🙂
Thanks for the link. Definitely not gone too far to treat children like children and not according to their perceived genitals. It’s the work of generations to try and let humans be humans, and even then we’ll be pushing them into some kind of unnecessary boxes. But the gender stuff is so irritating, and so easy to get lazy about stereotyping ‘girls’ and ‘boys’ and make an artificial divide.
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Dinosaur chickens cannot not be amazing.
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Is it taking too far, or have they hit the sweetspot?
Hard to say. From having observed the Swedes in their natural habitat a couple of times, I can only say they still manage to raise a bunch of Vikings somehow.
6 foot Viking males who look as if they wrestle moose for fun, with baby formula on their shirts. Shieldmaidens in pantsuits who have the entire playground standing at attention at a single holler.
Not sure whether Swedish girls need to be taught saying “No!”, however, judging by the little blonde who chased the boys with a bucket (no touching my pony without permission!)
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Vikings are adorable, always spreading cheer 🙂
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UNH. The poor kid (not yours, the eyelash batting one).
As for the other stuff.. alas, I have no clever handbook either.
Only this: Biology plays a role, it’s not the beginning and the end of all. No, I wouldn’t have to have the Period Talk with boys, or rather it’d be different (this is why girls get cranky. Stay out of sight and if you can’t evade, toss chocolate to distract them). I’d buy different underwear, unless I had a boy who thinks bras are a fantastic fashion statement.
Beyond that, they’re individuals. Having managed to keep mine alive and (mostly) well, with all pieces still attached, the best idea I can come up with for “Parenting as an atheist/agnostic” is to run with what you got.
A girl who loves pink and dresses and makeup but also cars and engineering? MIT in a princess dress it is.
A boy who feels most comfy in jeans and a shirt but keeps getting underfoot in the kitchen because mom never uses enough oregano? Well, might have a Master Chef in the making there. Or maybe just a guy who’ll have a leg up when it comes to finding a life mate (everyone loves a good cook!)
Encourage exploration of their selves without pressure, and hope like hell it’ll work out somehow. That’s all I got 😋
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Agreed. But I also think it’s healthy to encourage them to question to the attitudes they get from society, to analyse why we do certain things and if they make logical sense. If not, but they still feel comfortable doing them, that’s fine. But if not, there’s no need to continue ‘traditions’ or fit in boxes for the sake of it.
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Well maybe it’s just my daughters but they love to question, without me having to encourage much 💭
Sometimes I wish they’d stop throwing me left field questions like “If red used to be masculine and blue feminine, what changed?” while I’m engaged in the struggle of “pasta or potatoes? And who ate all the shrimp again??!”
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Hopefully my kids will be the same!
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Oh, inquisitive teenagers are great fun! 🌪
Especially when they storm into your bedroom around midnight because they just had a brilliant thought about Hawking Radiation 🤦♀️
Ok seriously – just keep the lines of communication open so they’re sure they can ask even seemingly daft questions, provide as much varied input as is feasible/practical and they’ll do the rest. Kids are natural explorers, if we don’t shut them down but rather act as tour guides, they’ll end up teaching us a thing or two.
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Good advice, thank you. I have to rein in my snappy, bossy, critical instincts all the time. With young kids it often gets to the point where the main communication is to tell them NO. When they’re peaceful I want downtime too. But there’s a long way to go I realise…
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We’ve just been having these discussions as nephew + wife are about to have their first child. They decided not to find out the gender until the birth as a training exercise for them and all of us – the idea is we’re supposed to learn to not do or buy anything that’s going to force the child into a role/position. It’s interesting because I realised that despite all my theoretical consciousness on how those things are bad my instinct was still to want to know the gender and buy things that conform to the associated stereotypes.
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When in doubt, go with a Papua New Guinean garamut drum. Percussion (and noise in general, which the garamut produces oodles of) is sexless.
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It’s difficult to do gender neutral in the gender divided world. For example, it’s easier to buy lego for a girl than dolls for a boy, in spite of the fact that boys often enjoy playing with them. Most people can encourage girls to play with brain building toys now, but there’s still a lack of consciousness about encouraging boys to home role play with kitchens and dolls, which is good for their development too.
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Drums are always a good idea anyway. My daughter and I play our Panama Tambours almost every day… if I can get her out of the tree. Gender roles are a ridiculous ploy to créate subservience in the Abrahamic model. No matter what they say, it is conditioning, mostly to be the good wife accepting a lesser role.
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Drums are never a good idea! Have you ever seen how much crap a drummer has to carry to a gig? Guitars are better, but then again I’m biased.
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I play guitar too. Used to have a big kit, but just bongos now. Very realistic and relaxing.
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Violet I am very glad to see you show up. I have a huge thank you. https://jimoeba.wordpress.com/2017/12/27/inside-lookout/
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I’d like to accept your thanks, but I’m fairly sure you have the wrong Violet. 🙂 I’ve been mainly offline the last few years and that certainly sounds like something the other Violet would say. I’m not so sure losing religion is the best thing for everyone – I mainly hope people can find a more generally harmless religious interpretation (and there are some about) if they need it in their lives. I do recognise you though, Jim in Panama. Interesting to read that you were challenging your beliefs through the blog.
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Well when NoShrinkingViolet talked to me, I remembered you both, but not positive who it was, but many thanks anyway. It was a few years ago. 3 or so. Anyway, thanks for posting great stuff. Are you going to be back more frequently?
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You’re very welcome, glad some of it has been of some use to somebody. I don’t feel as ranty as I once did but maybe it will come back to me yet! 🙂
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@vwisp
After reading your thoughts about having no time to blog, and being able to get a reprieve of sorts, imagine how I am both impressed and flattered that with your limited valuable minutes, you saw fit to visit the old den……….
But I’ll not be a spoil sport and say something that maybe will irk you and take back your good graces. 😉
But I would be curious what you would think of the little ones, if, according to your delight in them searching things out, at a more mature age, if they were to come to believe in the God of scripture and what follows.
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Good question ColorStorm, I’ll do you a post.
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Glad to see you writing again!
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Glad to see you scratching your ear again. 😀 Got any thoughts on churchy gender roles?
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Not really. I am done raising kids and I am glad I didn’t have to raise them in this era where there are so many other issues that parents have to deal with!
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Is that a picture of you? You look way too young to be done raising kids. In any case, when I’m done I’ll likely still have an opinion.
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No! That is not a photo of me, but my wife and I did start young! You probably will have an opinion at the end of all this because you have to raise your kids in this time where Gender roles is a new, big thing. My kids are in their mid to late 20’s now and gender wasn’t the hot topic that it is today. I don’t think it ever came up. I guess I may have to think about it once the Grand kids start coming.
I admit that the topic is one I don’t ever get into and rarely think about. I would not have said anything at all but I had to let you know that I was glad you wrote something finally!
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I guess we’re more conscious of the artificial sweeping gender separations now. I never had Lego or Meccano of my own and that annoyed me even way back then. Glad you’re glad I’m back. Get stuck into some serious discussions and stop avoid potential confrontation. I know you have opinions. 😀
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I completely agree with your notions. I’m tired of those who try to force boys and girls, and men and women into these tiny, narrowly defined boxes where we are to think and act according to our sex.
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Hey! Great post ☺️ if you have time check out my post on whether sex education limits young peoples understanding about gender and sexuality! Thanks 🙂 https://studenttraveller2017.wordpress.com/2018/04/07/does-sex-education-limit-young-peoples-understandings-of-gender-and-sexuality/
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I don’t normally like these spam “read my post” comments but this one is worth it, thanks for the link. 😀
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Thank you ☺️
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Lovely to see you blogging again. Unfortunately the wider society will indoctrinate your children in gender roles. For example, by the age of three where children are shown video of children playing with non-gender-stereotypical toys, then given the choice of toys to play with, they show a marked preference for toys played with by the child of their own sex. You can encourage them to be themselves, at home, and stand up for them if there is gendered stereotyping at school- if only they are resisting it themselves.
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Thank you, it’s good to come back when I have time, which is unfortunately now over, and in any case didn’t get many opportunities. I definitely see it in my kids, the gender nonsense they get fed. Even worse here in Argentina, lots of comments from everyone to them with absurd rules for boys and girls. At least there’s a level of awareness and mood for change back home.
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Just curious violet, what is this ‘gender nonsense’ they are being fed?
Are you saying it is silly for boys to be boys, and girls be girls? Or are you saying boys should ‘tryout’ girlship? Or boys should wear dresses?
Don’t want to put words in your mouth. Rest assured, when I was a youngster, this conversation never came up, and it was not because we lived in the world of intellectual fog, but because we as humans, knew the difference between the girls room and the boys bathrooms.
But maybe you are more intellectually advanced?
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Very interesting read! I will be coming back to read more from you.
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The obvious is that male and female are not the same and share differences. But when it comes to parenting children, speaking only from my own experiences. I raise them according to my life experiences. Surly like most, there are some regrets that I have. and like most, if I would have known, I would have done things differently. I don’t try to live my life through my children. For I believe that blocks them from discovering themselves. Rather, I guide them to not go down the same paths that I did. along with the telling them not to do, I do what should be done. This I believes helps children. For surely they will make their own mistakes but we can avoid them making big mistakes. Everyone has their own methods of parenting, who is really to say, what is right and what is wrong?
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Here’s something interesting from today’s cnn website:
Trump’s ban on global abortion funding has led to more abortions
https://edition.cnn.com/2018/05/24/health/trump-mexico-city-policy-abortion-ban-kenya-asequals-intl/index.html
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interesting read, thanks for sharing…….
also appending for ur read “10 Facts from Survey: Are Grandparents acting as Parents for the 2nd time?” https://southasiafasttrack.com/2018/06/07/10-facts-from-survey-results-are-grandparents-acting-as-parents-for-the-second-time/
Thanks, Sourajit Aiyer
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I am sort of on the fence with this one. (This is a great read by the way!) How I was raised some things like my son grabbing for a purse or a doll had me worried at first. I don’t take it from him because I had to realize that I can’t say “Oh my daughter is a Tomboy” if I see her playing with toy guns, action figures and toy soldiers. I have to be fair both ways.
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Loved this post.
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Preconceived gender sure is an issue. And in many families, people actually look out for boy babies . Do read my experience:
If the new gen parents can allow their children to be what they like, think and live gender free- they would be much happier.
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When we raised our children way back in the 1970s, we attempted to make their upbringing as gender neutral as possible, but by the time they started primary school (at age 5 in NZ), they were just as binary in the gender identity as all their peers.
Our attempt to be gender neutral was in response to how both myself and my wife were brought up outside the established norm for our respective societies (Aotearoa New Zealand in my case, and Japan in my wife’s case).
I grew up in a family, where for at least the previous two generations, gender roles were somewhat more fluid than was the norm. I, like many autistics, was less aware than other children of what is considered incorrect behaviour for specific genders. Through bullying and physical violence I eventually learnt to act in a more masculine manner, but some of it is against “what comes naturally” for me.
My wife on the other hand was raised to take on the role that was typically taken by the eldest male in a land-owning family with many tenant farmers. For example, she was punished if she exhibited emotions or feelings in a typically female manner.
While, thankfully, gender roles in NZ are not as rigidly defined as in Japan, both my wife and I are very aware that sex and gender are not as tightly entwined as many people believe.
I remember when my mother have one of my nephews a Barbie doll for Christmas when he was 7 or 8. He had been asking his parents for some time to give him one, but they had been reluctant to do so as they were concerned he might be subject to bullying from outside the family if he was seen playing with a doll. My mother was less concerned about that. She had decided that it was society that needed to change, and by God (she was Christian) she was going to help in breaking down gender stereotypes.
I’m not sure how much the respective influences of nature and nurture have on gender and gender identity, but so long as children are brought up to understand that gender roles and gender identity are not set in concrete for all time, and variations are normal, they’ll turn out being comfortable in themselves and being comfortable around others who may be quite different.
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