censorship – is Luther worthy of love?
I have a bit of a bee in my bonnet about censorship in the land of blogging, and I’m not entirely sure why. I even feel a bit prickly about comment policies and ban threats. Although I do understand that sometimes extremely nasty things are said that shouldn’t be displayed in public, I find it odd when a simple difference of opinion can lead to comments being trashed and conversations being denied.
Today I had an uncomfortable 20 minutes trapped on the toilet with my phone for distraction (a detail no-one really needs to hear about) and I was desperate enough to bother clicking on the link to Prayson Daniel‘s latest post about Martin Luther. Now usually I avoid reading Prayson’s posts, even though I’m subscribed, because I find them painfully dry and boring. This post is about how much he loves a new piece of software that helps him dedicate his life to reading more of the words of Martin Luther:
I love Luther. I believe you would too when you get a chance to know more about him through his own works. Together with St. Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, and John Calvin, Luther is among my top four Christian theologians who keep me up awake throughout many nights studying their works. … Since I am in love with Luther (do not tell my wife), I have also priorities his works in my Logos Library.
Fair enough. Everyone has a favourite writer, someone who inspires them and seems to have insight into what they believe life is about.
BUT, there was a long comment underneath the post when I read it on the toilet several hours ago, and when I came back to re-read the comment just now, it was gone. The comment said the post was disgusting. The comment quoted from a treatise that Luther had written about Jews, On the Jews and Their Lies, calling Jews “base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth”. The comment seemed to question how anyone could declare love for a man whose writings were a chief inspiration for anti-semitism in Nazi Germany.
Fair enough. So what was Prayson’s response? Nothing. Well, nothing on the subject. He issued a short paragraph threatening to delete the comment for being … I can’t remember what … rude? Did he say rude? Is it rude for someone to question another’s declaration of adoration for someone whose words were used to justify killing millions?
Censorship annoys me. On so many occasions it reveals the inability of people to face the truth. It reveals people’s desires to live closeted lives accepting only information they want to hear. It’s a denial of truth and debate, and makes us all more ignorant.
Prayson, you appear to have deleted both comments now, so that anyone reading your post will be left with the impression that John Luther was a man worthy of blinkered adoration. History tells us he was not – your attitude reveals your love of censored ignorance, if nothing else.
Yep, Luther was a prize prick. And it doesn’t say much for anyone who would revere such a character and go all doey-eyed. But really, what are you expecting from the religious minded?
From Bigot to Quiner, Brandon to SOM, Prayson to Debillis, unklee to insanitybytes.
String together a dozen rational lines of comment – if you can?
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I think all the ones you list are very different, I would have difficulty lumping them together and, apart from SOM, they all make logical comments on most occasions. He’s ‘liked’ the post – go figure. Does he comment out of his space? I hope he attempts to explain such odd behaviour.
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Of course they are all different, but they all have religion in common. None of their comments about religion/belief are logical; this is an oxymoron.
I have never read a Prayson comment outside of his own blog.
He tends to ”like” all over the place, or did when I used to follow his blog.
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Mmm.
Has the other work value, is my question. Kicking off the Reformation, or writing Childe Harold or Gotterdammerung, are great achievements, despite other things we despise now. You can’t blame Luther for the use of his words 430 years later.
My blog is my own. You remember Matthew, and I have seen others who do not permit comments because the commenters disagree. Some like chat, some like to hold forth. If the dialogue continues elsewhere I do not need it on my blog.
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I’m not blaming Luther, I haven’t read the work and don’t know anything about the historical context. My shock is that someone would remove a comment that adds pertinent information to the post.
I seem to remember Matthew was particularly rude, wasn’t he? I do understand people removing personal attacks.
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Sadly I have remove the comments 🙂 I asked for civility and I do not mind a person being opposite to my views. But coming to your blog and deeming your article disgusting is not civil and when asked for civility, the response was for I to revoke my position on Luther 🙂 I had minimal choice. It is my blog after all and I am responsible to see health dialogues.
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There was nothing uncivil about the comment as far as I could see. The person was understandably outraged that you would revere someone who said such awful things, but was coherent and measured in tone and content. Why did you not feel you could respond to it? You could have censored the word ‘disgusting’ if it offended you so much, but don’t you think it added information of value to your post?
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No it does. I have saved the comments and would not delete them for now. It is fine to hate Luther. What is not fine is calling the who article disgusting because someone hates Luther.
What is more uncivil is when asked to be civil, John responded by asking me to apologize and revoke my position on Luther. Such behavior is beyond what I can bear.
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Fascinating. How do you feel about Romanus Pontifex or anyone who makes the case that Pope Nicholas V was marvellous?
Would you consider calling it disgusting that a Pope justified the enslavement of Africans? Or would that be uncivil?
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Edward I of England (was the “Hammer of the Scots” he, or someone else?) monstrous mass-murderer- but that was the way politics was done, then. And- superb general, sweeping over France, marching to Inverness with little resistance, these are notable if not admirable achievements. He was a “Great man”.
Or, I don’t like Samuel Johnson’s comments about the Scots, but still admire him.
What else did Nicholas V do?
Luther’s antisemitic comments were of his time. They do not vitiate his other achievements.
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I don’t think that excuse is good enough. His writings on the Jews do indeed make it offensive for anyone to sing his praises as if he’s worthy of total adoration, regardless of the value they find in other writings.
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I think Clare said his antisemitic comments do not vitiate *his other achievements.* They do of course tarnish the man Luther.
If you only want to admire people who live in your own culture and hold values identical to your own that’s fine. But I often admire people from history even though they will no doubt hold some beliefs that by our modern standards we find abhorrent.
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“John responded by asking me to apologize and revoke my position on Luther.”
I’m struggling to understand your attitude towards all this. You publish a post gushing love for a man who said, “First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom” and you think it’s unreasonable for someone to find your post disgusting? You then think they are being uncivil by asking you to revoke your clearly blinkered and insulting position. Furthermore, you make no attempt to explain how adoration and praise for such a monstrous person is compatible with the actions he inspired the resulted in the murder of millions of people. You’re really not good on seeing things objectively, are you?
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It’s neither civil nor uncivil- to be fair. I know some people are appalled by the idea I like Wagner. They may find it disgusting because of what that represented in the 40’s. I don’t mind either way. I feel I can make a distinction between the music and the rest.
I’m happy to explain that.
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I have also run into this idea of not tolerating the music by Richard Wagner (which I happen to like), because of his political views. It was a Christian US blogger who made a fuss about it, but I had to ask him, if he also rejected the idea of buying BMW, Volks Wagen, or Mercedes and what he thought about Grupp blenders, vacuum cleaners and other German industrial products made by the same corporations that funded the Nazi political campaigns and gained from slave work during WWII? He never replied… One could just as well ask why has the US army taken into use a tank named after a famed war criminal Sheridan, who was disdained for his conduct of destruction of civillians even by contemporary press on his side of their civil war?
Luther is a joke. A poor and terrible joke. I live in a country where Lutherian church is the state endorced religion. Here the main line is a very liberal and mild form of Christianity (in comparrison to many), but there are the extreme evangelical forms of it here also. The right wing of Finnish Lutherans are as eager Christian Zionists as any. They claim to revere Luther deeply, but fail to read his hatred and advice about the Jews. Though I appriciate them not being anti-semitists (like their granparents used to be during WWII when Finland was in bed whith Nazi-Germany), it still seems weird. Perhaps it is only a perfect example of ignorance. Willfull ignorance.
I know this is a nother matter, but I can not help it, that the zionistic attittudes of many a Christians are as vile as nazism, and motivated by equal zeal. It seems, that Israel is incapable of doing anything, that these religious idiots would not find acceptable. Their morals is twisted by their utter faith in their own personal “saviour”, so that if they believe this “saviour” character approves of some inhumane acts of segragation, apartheid or even murder, it still has to be OK. The utmost form of selfishness cleverly disguised so that the self centered expecting to be “saved” do not recognize it even in themselves. Before and during WWII they accepted any act against Jews and after the war they have turned to accept any act by the Jews. Why?
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Stupidly enough, I hadn’t really considered the link to Lutheran churches, and how he could be viewed almost like a pope for some people. I think it just shows how determined Christians are to block out facts that are inconvenient to their blinkered worship.
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Do you think Wagner is a valid comparison? Enjoying an abstract artistic output such as music, has nothing to do with loving a person for their thoughts and words, when their thoughts and words include utterly vile statements that directly justified mass genocide. And while a case might be made that that some things Luther said are useful or even wonderful for some people, in spite of the fact that some were clearly very harmful, Prayson chooses to avoid looking at the whole picture and censor the ugly parts from his view.
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I agree with you. What I meant was that criticizing someone for liking Luther or Wagner is neither civil nor uncivil. It’s a perspective for which a reasonable argument can be made.
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You might as well say it is okay to put up a post being in love with Hitler because he instilled a sense of national pride in the German people.
If you put a little more thought and consideration before posting then you would not have received such a violent backlash.
However, it does highlight how ignorant you and most Christians truly are.
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I’ve mostly only censored myself after having used an ‘imbecile’ too many (and then sent an apology or two afterwards).
Once I censored an annoying American woman, but only because the discussion was ridiculous and a total waste of space and time. I may have also called her the C word in the process and that wasn’t really something I thought the world needed to see memorialized for all of internet history 😀
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“I’ve mostly only censored myself after having used an ‘imbecile’ too many (and then sent an apology or two afterwards).” Delighted to hear it. 😀
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What I enjoy more than anything in the world are people who send every comment on their blog to moderation, no matter how many times you’ve already been vetted.
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Yeah, that makes me laugh too. Control freaks. In my early blogging days I had a ‘friend’ blogger who did that, only releasing the comments as she replied to them. I found that rather odd.
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Then you will laugh at me as well Violet, because I used to do that. LOL! I found it easier to moderate the comments so I could keep track of all the comments and make sure that I reply to each and every one of them and visit the bloggers that left the comments. Those were in the earlier days when I had much more time on my hands. 😆 Now I find it easier to just leave the comments un-moderated and reply to them when I can. Just shows you – with age comes wisdom and less time. hahahahaha
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Hahaha! They must have so much time to do that.
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Luther, a German, was a bigoted, anti-Semitic racist – an observation that I fear wouldn’t last long on Prayson’s site, but since I don’t subscribe to Prayson’s brand of hogswill, it is likely quite safe here.
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He clearly doesn’t want to acknowledge anything that could taint his blind devotion. I think this is a good analogy for loving the god God and thinking such a creature could be benevolent, in spite of the stories they believe are true.
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Indeed it is.
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I know a Christian who deleted every comment from every post. He even wrote a post on it: “I Don’t Allow Comments. Here’s Why…” I think he’s now even taken that down, but i made a copy for prosperity.
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*Posterity
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Haha, that’s funny you corrected that. I thought it looked about right, doh. I guess some people are just about project their ‘truth’ and it must ruin they’re truth when the dissenting voices with actual facts start pitching in …
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I think there was one I responded to his blog post where he addresses atheists but says he will delete comments from them. I was like wth!
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This guy was pretty much a nutter. He would fast for days (over a week, once, so he said) awaiting “guidance.”
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That was a real nut case. Hope he got help
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Violet,
There is something else going on here that is a bit disconcerting. I’ve read excerpts from “On the Jews and Their Lies” several times before and was a bit surprised to see that the wikipedia page that you linked to is quite a bit watered down from what Luther actually wrote. So then I wasn’t so sure which was the true source, but I think I found 2 sources that confirm my original reading. Here they are:
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Martin_Luther (section on “Luther and the Jews”)
Click to access Martin%20Luther%20The%20Jews%20and%20Their%20Lies_1483-1546_excerpts_2013.pdf
The second may not be a reputable source, but they are Christian so you’d think they would want it watered down too.
Here are some excerpts that have always troubled me from this treatise of Luther’s:
Hard to admire a guy like that.
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Thanks Howie, that’s really interesting. I’ve quoted some of that directly back at Prayson. Vile stuff. Even if you do admire someone in particular contexts and not in others, it’s odd in the extreme to avoid the bad stuff as if it doesn’t exist and give global and gushing praise for them. I mean, to not even recognise that people are perfectly justified in finding Luther and anyone who praises him to be disgusting, is arrogant denial.
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The god they worship is like that. Kill at whim to appease your ego but the believers still believe their god is beyond reproach
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Gorgeous bird you captured there Violet! Love it! 😀
The comment must have been something like this : http://shoebat.com/2013/12/27/exposing-martin-luthers-love-affair-islam/
Clearly just another ‘lost soul’ who doesn’t have a clue and believes everything he reads and won’t allow anyone else to have a different opinion, because he believes he is right and everyone else is wrong.
I feel when you have a blog where you state your opinions on matters like this, censorship shouldn’t take place because it’s open to a debate and everyone has the right to their own opinions. If people like that doesn’t want opinions different to theirs, they shouldn’t write posts like that, or if they don’t anyone to comment, they should disable the comments section.
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Thanks for the link Sonel, that’s really interesting. Like your facepalm too. 😀
I agree with you about comments. It’s odd because Prayson usually seems to court debate, as far as I’ve seen, so he obviously just can’t face the truth on this matter. He’s offered no kind of logical explanation for his action.
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He did write a while ago that he also likes Calvin or something to that effect and I asked his thoughts about the fact that he killed or was complicit in the murder of Severtus and I don’t recall he responded.
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He clearly thinks anything he disagrees with, or that is immoral, is irrelevant. But that’s how to be a good Bible-reading Christian …
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I’ll take a stab that he was not fully aware of what Luther wrote ( as few Christians are aware of so much of their religion and its odious history) and suddenly he is left with egg all over his face as he desperately attempts to cover up his humongous gaff, realising that championing Luther is lending tacit approval to the man’s diabolical and heinous ‘dark side’.
As much of Prayson’s approach seems to be Love is All You Need tra la la ( thank you John Lennon) I suspect he may be sitting with his missus and kiddie and wondering just what the hell was going on with Luther?
And now he is left in the position that the ‘father’ of Protestantism was a rabid anti-Semite and chuffing head case and he has to distill some sense out it.
Tough call…..
What was it Sir Reg Dwight sang…’….when sorry seems the hardest word of all’.
Will Prayson ‘Man-up’ and apologise?
Well, kiddies, what do we think?
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I have found that even when some people realize their mistakes they find it quite difficult to own up to them. I also suspect that what yo say is true. There is likely a lot of rationalization going on there. We are so far removed from the atrocities that have been committed by some of these “fathers” that we can somehow minimize them. So what’s likely the internal dialogue? “He’s only human. Nobody’s perfect. We should celebrate their accomplishments and forget about their shortcomings.”
See what I mean? None of those negative words can possibly equate to the damage caused by such an individual. I wonder in 100 years what people will say about the likes of Jerry Sandusky who molested countless boys under the guise of being a father figure and through a charity he created to “help” these boys. Will people be saying he was only human because he did “so much good”? Ridiculous!
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Ridiculous it is. Just look at Clare’s comment regarding the “blessing” that Luther brought about.
This too is, sadly, indoctrination. A slam door reaction to the Bogeyman of Truth.
I have stated, time and again, there is no Good Christianity, even if there are well intentioned Christians.
What they believe is based on false premise and generally forced upon them through insidious means.
No doubt, Prayson will find some way of doing a Pontius PIlate and believe he and Luther will emerge smelling of roses, rather than something unmentionable stuck to the bottom of one’s shoe.
Though maybe he will surprise us all?
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“Will Prayson ‘Man-up’ and apologise?”
Well, he appears to have bowed out of the conversation here. Maybe he apologised on his post? 😉
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Then rush over and see….
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Oooh, John did a fine job of drawing him out, and making him look rather silly. Well done John! (No apology as yet …)
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It was needed. John Tapsell hammers Prayson quite regularly, he even got into SOM on the post before (well worth a read), but deleting his comments simply because they were too awkward (too true) was not good form.
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No, he just tried to justify his “love” for him.
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I don’t care for censoring either. I don’t think it’s very productive and IMHO gives far more weight to an opinion I might disagree with than it deserves. Hiding it only makes it look more damning.
I have self-censored and asked for my own comments to be removed when I’ve said something completely silly and ridiculous which I didn’t want out in blogland forever and ever. Never about a serious subject, though.
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I would allow any comment to stand, I don’t encourage anyone who insults the host. There is only person I can’t stand and unless am convinced they have become sane, their comments go strain to the spam hold.
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My comments seem to be making it through and I haven’t been asked to present papers so I think I’m good there! 😀
I’ve only attracted the attention of señor looney tunes on a few occasions, thankfully.
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Ruth your every visit is a pleasure to the host. We are happy to see you around 😛
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Aw, thanks, mak!
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He such a smoothy…. 🙂
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“Hiding it only makes it look more damning.” Exactly. When you can’t face the truth it’s because there’s no excuse. 😈
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> Well, nothing on the subject. He issued a short paragraph threatening to delete the comment for being … I can’t remember what … rude? Did he say rude?
It was my posts that he deleted. Unfortunately I don’t have a copy of the deleted posts, but I have his replies and a snippet of what I wrote (from the emails):
> > > I love Luther. I believe you would too
> > WOW. Seriously? The guy that heavily influenced Hitler? This is the guy that you love? A few quotes from Martin Luther: “Therefore be on your guard against the Jews, knowing that wherever they have their synagogues, nothing is found but a den of devils in which […]
> John, thank you for your inputs. This article is not for you and I would kindly ask for civility. I have not ban any person in my blog and I do not wish to. Thanks for understanding.
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John, I would have censored you too.
I do not condone anti-semitism, it is a 2000 year stain on Christianity, but it does not come from Luther. Consider the Rhineland Massacres of 1096.
So in a post on the contribution of Martin Luther to western civilisation: such a strong influence on the Reformation is a huge achievement and a great blessing. To call him “the guy who heavily influenced Hitler” takes a small part of Luther’s legacy and blows it out of all proportion. Hitler could have taken many other influences, and presumably did (I have not studied it in great depth). He was brought up Catholic, not Lutheran.
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A great blessing? Are you serious
Please, Clare, would you care to elaborate on that statement?
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Look at him in context and in his time. From your point of view, he split the Church, considerably lessening its power.
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Lessened it? Well, that is a point of view, certainly.
I would suggest that he merely created another monster, and on the face of it history bears this out
Where we had a single corrupt christian church, now we have many, able to interpret their own versions of this disgusting religion and formulate a myriad of doctrines.
How on earth is this a blessing?
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Actually there were allready at least three major Christian sects before the reformation, that had for variable reasons, not been able to wipe each other out. Not like they had not made an effort to, but the Kopti-church of Egypt was in the “protection” of Islam, and the Orthodox church was militarily too strong for the Catholical crusades to conquer it despite it bore the brunt of the wars against Mongols and Muslims (and perhaps because of those was too preoccupied not to have it’s own “crusades” against the western church). The reformation only split the western church, but perhaps I am splitting hairs here?
Great good came out of the reformation, but only at a very high price. Europe was torn by the most terrible wars it has ever endured. Decades of religious war, sacking of towns, massacres and absolutely militaristic societies built only for religion, profit and war. What we call WWI and WWII were short and rather organized skirmishes in comparrison to the wanton destruction of the 17th century religious wars. But they led to the peace treaty of Westfalen, where for the first time in western history religious freedom was established. That is the true birthplace and thime of the concept for secular state. And while Europe was geared up for war and finally made peace whith itself, it was also ready to conquer rest of the world, by the divine justification of bringing the “merry message” of “salvation” in exchange for all the natural resources of other people around the globe.
Can Luther be blamed for what Hitler did? Well, at least his anti-semitism was a great political tool for Hitler to convince the Lutherans of Germany, that the Jews were to be either sent to Palestine, or destroyed. A typical example of the harm of authoritarianism, and the multiplying effect of imagined absolute authority of a god behind Luthers motives, has on ethical corruption of masses by such demagogues as Hitler and Luther. The Catholics Hitler did not really need to convince of this, because they were already convinced by their priests, as Clare – kind of – pointed out.
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You are correct of course re: the Orthodox and the Kopi. But I would still be dubious about whether Luther’s reformation was truly beneficial.The price was horrendous and look at the legacy?
Left alone, the excesses of the Church may well have seen it implode. But this is pure speculation of course.
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I share your opinion Arkenaten. I am really bad at sarcasm, and really should not try it in the internet and in a language not my native tongue. 😉
I do not really appriciate alternative histories, as we do not know what would have happened, but the one we have makes it clear, that Luther had a vile and totally unethical religiously motivated hatred and racistic approach towards a group of people – The German Jews. And though in hindsight the end result of having the idea of freedom of religion recognized by nations may be deemed good, it never was the intent of Martin Luther. We may also deem that his intent was not to cause a terrible war of atrition and massacres between different Christian sects, but we do know his intent was, that the Jews should be segragated and maltreated. Certainly, Luthers intent was not even to split the Catholic church, he only wanted to renew it. Luther is fully responsible for his intent and to certain degree to the direct and indirect results of his actions. Are we not all?
The one big impact and intent of Luther in renewing the Roman Catholic church was to make them accept suicide. This, in my humble opinion, represents the cultural division of Europe as the result of the Roman empire. Romans of course thought suicide an honourable thing, but only by their nobles. The wast majority of population were slaves, and their suicides meant bad business for the owners. So, the Roman culture condemned suicide by poor people and that idea got sucked into religious tribal moralsim as Christianity grew into political power within the empire. Outside the empire, among “barbarians”, suicide was considered the individual right of every freeborn (they had less slaves). Never mind the elaborate theological excuses. The real reasons are in the cultural heritage. Martin Luther was just one of many to seek his gods approval of his own cultural heritage.
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Fascinating, Raut. I didn’t know that about the Roman approach to suicide.
Noble = “No Problem, need a hand?”
Slave = “Hell No! Go and pick up my dry cleaning!”
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“John, I would have censored you too.”
Clare, I’ve been reading your posts and comments for over a year. You wouldn’t have censored, you would have welcomed the comment and given your opinion on how you rationalise any admiration you have with Luther with his foul writings about Jews.
“To call him “the guy who heavily influenced Hitler” takes a small part of Luther’s legacy and blows it out of all proportion.”
Rubbish. It takes a significant part of Luther’s legacy that has clearly been underplayed by the protestant churches built on his legacy. Mindless adoration for anyone is simply mindless. Read and think about what he wrote. Jesus could never have been reported to say words like that and have a legacy that lasted as long as it did. Simply unacceptable, and no excuse, although maybe an explanation in the cultural and historical context.
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I think his behaviour is truly bizarre. The fact that he saw your comment as in any way rude shows that he has a deluded attachment to Luther. How could he express LOVE for someone without clarifying how he views Luther’s writings on the Jews? Of course, there is the possibility not yet uttered, that he agrees … surely not.
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> To call him “the guy who heavily influenced Hitler” takes a small part of Luther’s legacy and blows it out of all proportion
Please read up a bit on him. Luther called for people to kill Jews. Hitler himself quoted Luther extensively. The Nazi party themselves said that Hitler and Luther were “two sides of the same coin”. Protestants voted for Hitler a lot more than Catholics, specifically because of Luther.
He wrote a whole book on how “Jews and their lies”, where he tells people off for killing Jews.
Please just read a bit about him. This is not a “small part”.
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Luther had very good criticism of the Catholic church’s abuses of power and was a champion of the freedom of conscience. In fact, he was probably the very first successful champion of this probably more owed to the recently invented printing press than anything else. If the printing press hadn’t been invented he might have been burned at the stake for criticizing the church like many have.
But, as pointed out, he was also profoundly anti-Semitic. A travesty.
Luther was good mixed with evil just like everyone of us.
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Luther was good mixed with evil just like everyone of us.
Speak for yourself, you trumped up little dickhead…I am not evil, and nether is anyone I know.
Tell me, Brandon, do you take special lessons to be an ignorant prat or does it come naturally to you?
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Have you been reading ‘How to win friends and influence people’ again? It’s having a great affect on your interaction skills. 😈
Brandon does have a point but perhaps from the wrong angle. We all do a whole mixture of things and have a whole mixture of beliefs and understandings of the world. Things that seem normal for our sense of morality here and now won’t seem normal or even pleasant several centuries in the future. Think of eating animals and buying cheap goods we know exploit others – and that’s only the stuff we can imagine might be wrong.
Something I find particularly interesting though is the excuses all the Christians are making for Luther, when his violent and aggressive stance against Jews is clearly not only vilely immoral but it goes against anything that Jesus (their role model) would have done or advocated.
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Demanding innocent women and children be hunted down and slaughtered is about as ghastly as it gets. That said, the Yahwehist has plenty of experience trying to justify horrendous acts of intolerance and genocide…
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“Demanding innocent women and children be hunted down and slaughtered is about as ghastly as it gets.” Have you got that quote to hand? I’ve been a bit skimmy on this one …
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What quote? That says that? It’s in the quote Howie posted.
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Doesn’t say that. Says the buildings should be burned and the people oppressed.
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“I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews”
This is an open warrant to hunt down and murder.
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Maybe he knows the god God will protect them?
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🙂 I can’t argue with that
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Brandon’s use of the word evil is disgusting, especially considering it is generally used with the religious context in mind. You can read all the connotations on Wiki if you are interested. Standard stuff.
It is not a word I use and it is rarely used in day to day conversation.
His implication that a new born is evil merely confirms how much on an indoctrinated bloody idiot he truly is.
Christians, like all religious people, will make any excuse that helps them avoid confronting the bogeyman of truth when he gets in their face.
What they believe in has nothing to do with Jesus – who of course was a Jew, sent to save the Jews ( lost children of Israel) and was quite specific that his message was not for all and sundry.
Plonkers like Brandon fail to understand that Christianity is based on the ”teachings” of whoever wrote Acts and the Epistles and, Church Doctrine, of course.
The biblical character of Jesus would have been appalled at someone like Brandon, SOM and all the other bloody do-gooders for Yeshua.
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Have you had your morning coffee yet? 🙂
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Oh, yes…and lunch as well.
After taking care of business as the saying goes I was about to do some serious editing and wotnot when I saw Brandon’s delightful comment.
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Must be your time of the month then.
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There you go! How long have you been waiting to use this line I wonder?
I’ll let you know if I get all weepy and moan about how bloated I look okay?
You can console me, yes?
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No idea what you’re talking about. Do you get weepy and bloated? Try not to be so concerned about your emotions or your appearance.
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Is that all the advice you’ve got to offer? Really?
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Some people just aren’t naturally attractive. There’s not much we can do for people like you. 😉
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Priceless!
Who knew?
And me with all my own teeth and hair too.
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Lucky you! I’m three teeth down already, and forecast to lose them all in the next 10 years.
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I’m with you on this, and your take was certainly chuckle worthy 🙂
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(chuckle worthy = troll-like broad brush insult of no meaningful value)
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Did you feel his “evil” remark matched you?
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I understood what he means by it, even if I don’t agree with his choice of words, or the underpinning I know he has behind it. As I explained to Ark, we are all currently engaged in activities that will be branded ‘evil’ by future generations.
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You mean eating our mammalian cousins? I agree. Fingers cross that engineered meat comes on-line in the very near future.
Good news: our state banned all animal testing recently. Positive move…
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Well, that’s one we can see coming. Undoubtedly there are more that we can’t.
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By the way, there’s another Christian input on the ‘why are you a christian’ post you asked for. Not sure if it adds anything different, but this one is similar to Brandon in that he feels Christianity is a positive behavioural modifier.
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Are talking about my post or yours?
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Mine
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Are you sure you have not undertaken any evil in your life? Do you not have any vices?
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You are an idiot!
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Point proven.
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if you read the comment below, you sanctimonious little twerp it might clarify issues for you.
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What makes you think I didn’t read that comment?
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Ah…In that case …you are an eve bigger idiot.
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No, let me rather respond fully.
Evil, as it is generally understood: boiling pet rabbits, cutting up kiddies because ‘God’ said; doing anything on the say so of a god. no. Definitely not. Never.
Vices? Hmmm. Don’t smoke any more, hardly ever drink, ( wine gives me headaches) yes I swear on occasion- like when I call religious half-wits dickheads – don’t steal, though have nicked a few things in my time as a kid. Sweets if I recall. I once nicked a gobstopper from the local newsagent. I was about 8 I think. You can see it left an impression!
Never cheated on the missus, and with the wife I have why would I want to?
Smoked Marijuana once- is that evil? Don’t have your sordid problems with porn, and I am not a Manchester United supporter.( that one’s a BIG plus) I love rock music and have even tried to play my Black Sabbath records backwards to hear the devil. Ozzy actually sounds more intelligible
I try to avoid hypocrisy, I do dishes, cook now and then, always turn out my socks the right way before chucking them in the laundry basket, and I usually pick up the dog’s poop and mow the lawn reg’lar.
I don’t take milk in coffee or tea – that must be regarded as a plus, right?
Oh, and I don’t believe the disgusting shit of religion or gods or theism or the bible or koran. So that’s a bunch of ‘evils’ I don’t have to worry about, hey Brandon?
You are such a silly chump.
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“I once nicked a gobstopper from the local newsagent. I was about 8 I think.”
That’s amazing! I had an identical experience. I was also 7 or 8, and the convenience store manager was there all by himself and had gone to the back of the store to help a lady customer find something, and there I was, faced with rows and rows of different kinds of penny candy. I received a weekly allowance, had change in my pocket, and could easily have bought any piece I wanted, or several, but I had just begun questioning my Dad’s truisms, one of which was that criminals always get caught, so I had to see for myself. I stole a single piece, and felt so guilty about it, that I’ve never stolen anything since.
Speaking of theft, has anyone ever researched Roman law, circa the zero-th century, to see if the penalty for theft was really death? That seems a bit harsh.
BTW, that info you shared about the Seminar on the Acts was a goldmine! Thanks for that! I’ve already begun spreading the “Good News”!
Re your vices, you neglected to add, in the negative column, that you’re a Brit and you talk funny —
Of course, on the other hand, England DID produce Monte Python, so I suppose she could be forgiven for all else.
Which reminds me, while we’re chatting here together like this – why do your characters, which I DO enjoy, btw – all have Cockney accents, and none ever sound like Basil Rathbone, the quintessential “Holmes“?
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I lived across the UK, north and south and many of my characters reflect these accents.
I do have one character, Captain Poobah, an Air, Hair, Lair officer who would probably fit your Basil Rathbone bill.
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I guess I’ve yet to encounter him in my journeys through Arkland. Seriously, I do like your dialects.
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Cpt. Poobah is a garrison commander in the novel The Nine Amendments.
Thank you , Arch, Your compliments and encouragements are always welcome.
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Now let’s not get maudlin.
RE your good buddy, Brandon – Neuro kissed him goodbye on his own blog last night, in case you haven’t read her post yet (though I strongly suspect his ego will demand he try to suck her back into conversation with him, just to prove that he can), and I certainly have nothing constructive left to say to him, so it’s all up to you if you want to keep banging your head against a wall (Spoiler alert! The wall wins!).
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I shall bear this in mind….
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Don’t listen to Ark. You make good points here, thanks for commenting.
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Indeed, we are all capable of both benevolent and good behavior and malevolent and abhorrent behavior. We don’t all do what we are capable of doing because our consciences dictate otherwise.
The problem, as I see it is, within Christianity(I don’t know about other religions) a “sin” is a “sin” is a “sin”. All “sins” are equal. That means that lifting a paper clip from one’s employer is the same as advocating genocide for an entire race. It waters down what is truly disgusting behavior by attempting to make everyone feel disgusting for the smallest infractions.
Not only that, but after people are dead, no matter how loathsome they were here in this life, we somehow find a way to puff them up to make them seem better than perhaps they were.
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“Not only that, but after people are dead, no matter how loathsome they were here in this life, we somehow find a way to puff them up to make them seem better than perhaps they were.”
That’s a great point that explains this whole matter. When Christians decide someone is ‘good’ and a ‘proper Christian’, any bad behaviour is written off as the inevitable evil inherent in all people, regardless of the extent of the harm. Yet equally, they write off ‘bad’ people as monsters if they don’t fulfil some vague Christian ritual, along the lines of letting Jesus into their hearts and repenting, ie, nonsense.
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I guess there are dangers in any sort of idolizing people. Does not the Bible even ask for people not to idolize?
Buddha, Jesus, Muhammed, Luther, Hitler, Stalin and many, many others are all characters that have become idolized. Their misdeeds were not counted against them by the people who idolized them. As time passes and if only the text sources of the “idolators” remain these characters may become exemplars of virtue to the new generations. However, if anything of their human frailty, or malice is exposed, the “idolator” needs to either take their target of worship down from the pedestal, or simply start living in denial of the reality, that their hero did anything questionable, or to start coming up whith excuses to any unethical behaviour of the idol. The first solution is of course the healthy way to deal whith reality, the second one is brushing it aside in an infantile manner, and the third one is simply wile and it will eventually lead to the detoriariation of morals.
I do declare, that I have heroes of my own. I hope I do not idolize, or worship them. Worship and idolizing are a bit unhealthy models of behaviour, because they deny any critical evaluation of the subject of worship at the very beginning. Whithout critical evaluation there can not be actual understanding of the subject. Can there?
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“…or to start coming up with excuses to any unethical behaviour of the idol.”
Regrettably, this is the approach most Jews, Christians and Muslims take to their god.
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Yes, ultimately there is that risk. It is the result of idol worship (be it an alledged god, a god alledgedly become flesh, or just a demagogue acting in the name of a god, or merely an “enlightened” human individual acting for some cause) and at some level I guess, about their own identity. The idol has become such a great part of their own identity, that examining the deeds and words of the idol would require them to examine their own motives. If the motives were never really examined they may very well be poorly chosen and finding that reality out may indeed be a painfull experience. People often do what ever it takes to avoid such pain…
I think most people belonging to these religious cultural heritages do not give the issue a second thought before they are pressed or confronted on it. In there lies the true danger to society and social morals. The danger lies in the religiously indoctrinated masses following the fundamentalist demagogue on a path into tribal moralism, inherent to all religions and to a lot of other ideologies.
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That’s an excellent insight into the human condition, Rautakyy, and probably far more accurate than most religious would ever care to admit.
BTW, for one who declares English not to be his native language, your command of it far exceeds that of many whose first language was.
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Oh, thank you. A fact that I can not help is, that I have the outsider look at religious culture because of my backround as a third generation atheist. Naturally, that also causes me to have my own biases, but I hope I am able to at least recognize them. A nother fact, that I can not help is, that I also have the insight to religious cultural heritage, because I was born and raised in a rather secular country, that has a state endorced Christian church as a bit of a cultural rudiment.
I confess, that I read a lot in English. It seems, next I will have to read up on your blog. 😉
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You’re certainly welcome, feel free to subscribe and comment. Read it like a book:
http://in-his-own-image.com/2010/01/24/-in-his-own-image-.aspx
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Okay, you are sorely missed.
I sincerely hope everything is all right with you and yours.
Drop us a line if you get chance?
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I was thinking the same thing, Ark. Been wondering about her for days.
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She has disappeared in this manner before.
Now John has announced he is soon to b-off to Chile and may be an absentee for a bit. That’s okay, ‘cos you know he’ll be lurking in the background, and I won’t miss him anyway, being glued to the telly watching the footy, and if I have to, I can suffer Arch for a bit. 😉
I know it sounds cliquey, as we don’t really know each other except over the internet, but it is a bit disconcerting when there is no forewarning and a ‘regular’ just drops off the grid.
You think…hey up, and now?
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I didn’t start following her until after her hiatus, but she alluded to that upon her return and has recently said she’s prone to “disappear”, though I can’t quite remember where I read that (in the comment section somewhere here, I think. Too lazy to go look for it.)
At any rate, yes, maybe a bit clicquey(though I’d term it blogging buddies), but when somebody just drops completely off the radar it’s still nice to know they’re okay, just taking a break.
I even asked about you when you disappeared a little while back. 😛
Did your power get sorted?
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lol…not quite. It was established the fault was actually limited to out street so now the council is busy digging great big holes in the pavement ( sidewalk) up and down our street trying to find the ‘break’.
Eckstein Street looks like a Swiss cheese!
We had power for 24 hours on Monday then we went off the grid again. We are up at Ems place. She has power but we have to go home sometimes. It’s a pain. There is absolutely no romance in candles when its’ bloody freezing and you can’t see a darn thing and have to wear 14 layers of Jersey’s.
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“…and if I have to, I can suffer Arch for a bit.” – too late to start buttering me up now!
(“…pimple on the ass of the world….” – sheeesh!)
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Geez-us. You’re like the internet voyeur of all time. Have you got like forty windows open at the same time, or what!
I am definitely putting Plasticine over the camera on my lap top.
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Oh I’m going to be around. I need my distractions, just spending what writing time i have working on presenting the case for the Omnimalevolent Creator.
Still, it’d be nice if Wisp circled back around. One grows quite fond of that sense of humour.
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Oh thank you all for missing me two months after I leave. 🙂
Truth is that pregnancy hormones don’t seem compatible with blogging, or just that feeling sick and tired doesn’t at any rate. Same thing happened last time but that one didn’t grow very successfully. This one seems to be doing better, which means I might not be back for a while. I might still lurk a bit, although I find that quite tiring too …
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There she is!!!!
Oh, I had no idea you were expecting. Congratulations! Though it sounds like it’s kinda rough on you.
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Thanks Ruth! I’ll catch up with everything when my normal chemicals pump back in and I feel the need to rant about religion again … hope everyone will still be around! 🙂
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Just thought you might want to know, they finally figured out what causes that —
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It’s been two months, huh? 😉
Until our orbits cross again… Ceilidh Independence!
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Happy Chile-ing! Is it a Great Atheist retreat?
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Well someone has to go out and proselytise for our cult. So when you start seeing swarms of astronomers getting around in giant red clown shoes you’ll know they’ve been touched.
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Two months? Do I detect a soupcon of sarcasm? 😉
Pregnancy has addled your senses!
I began to wonder after a few days.
Well, long as you’re still Live end Kicking. Be well.
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Has it really only been three weeks?? Blogging is its own peculiar time warp. Stop being rude to Clare or I’ll pop back to chastise you.
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Rude?
Good grief…
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At least put up a few new photos. I am fed up looking at that Chaffinch.
Hope you’re well?
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Are you still kicking, lady?
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Oh yeah! Just popped in to put a new bird picture up for Ark. How’s everything going? Have I been missing any fun?
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Nah, you haven’t missed much…Just a few of us giving some nut-jobs hell. It’s going well, thanks!
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