a whiff of truth
Often the behavior of atheists mimics the behavior of the most obnoxious extremist Christian. Being around atheists is a bit like being in a Christian cult, just without even the benefit of the familiar rituals or the beautiful music. When atheists leave Christianity, they tend to take all the bad stuff with them and leave behind the good.
Judgmental? Check.
Prone to mock the less fortunate? Check.
Convinced of their vast moral superiority? Check
Elitist and privileged? Check.
Ruled by hyperbole and knee jerk emotionalism? Check
Prone to be abusive and controlling? Check.If you guys are going to act like the most extreme fundamentalist Christian, the least you could do is get yourselves some music. (Insanitybytes)
You’ve got to hand it to Insanitybytes – she’s a snappy writer and she comes up with the most unusual thoughts that often have just an unexpected whiff of truth to them.
On the other side of the argument, I read an impressive post this morning about the psychological abuse that is religion, detailing the catalogue of horrors that befalls the brain indoctrinated into Christianity.
Like many other atheists blogging here, I was brought up in a religious household and went through a rather difficult and long deconversion process to get me where I am today. However, while I love to tear apart every harmful Christian argument I come across here in Blogland, I try my best to avoid the common pitfall that all Christians are preaching pure evil and are deserving of utter disdain.
To be fair, Christian adults are as much victims of indoctrination as every child currently going through the process. Unleashing fury at them, judging them, calling them abusers and mocking them does little to demonstrate to them that the unbeliever’s life without the influence of a god is actually surprisingly, pleasantly nice.
Levels of true abuse both outwith and within religious institutions are strikingly similar – people are mistreated in all walks of life. Sure, it’s disturbing that there’s a ‘holy’ handbook readily available to support Christians who choose to oppress women, beat children, keep slaves or stone homosexuals, but most Christians living in today’s society have managed to use common sense to help them cherry pick round the morally inconvenient passages in the Bible and live by the ethical standards of modern society like anyone else.
When we take the long view on the development of our species, we’re only just at the point where a minority of us have been able to finally steer away from the traditional superstitious beliefs of our cultures. Religion is a huge part of our heritage: the religions of our cultures around the world, even for atheists, obviously still continue to have a lingering influence on how we live and what we are. We do our species a disservice when we dismiss a key feature of our evolutionary development so lightly and treat the vast majority of the population of the world as fools for continuing to do what humans have always done.
And now I’ve stated this, I just need to get my head round the fact that so many people still believe invisible superbeings actually exist. Come on people, it’s 2014!
Sidenote to Insanitybytes – I haven’t experienced beautiful music in any church I’ve visited.
To be fair, Christian adults are as much victims of indoctrination as every child currently going through the process.
Absolutely! There are some who make it sound like because we became adults that meant we’d wake up upon maturity and realize that, eureka!, it was all a fairytale.
No. We’d been brought up believing this was truth with a capital T. As I said to Tiribulus on your other post, when faced with a reality that contradicts a held belief it can lead to an existential crisis of enormous proportions and even psychotic episodes.
[Most] Christians, or religious people of any stripe for that matter, are not evil abusers. It just so happens that religions like Judaism, Christianity, and Islam attract abusers because it gives them justification for their abuse. It doesn’t make them abusers but it certainly goes a long way toward reinforcing that their ideals are valid.
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Yes, if people are prone to abusing I think they’re going to do regardless of their unpinning belief system. It’s something unfortunate in their own development, either poor childhood experiences or unlucky miswiring.
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I heard the Bach B Minor mass at St Machar’s cathedral Aberdeen. And you have not been fortunate enough to be present when I have played church organs.
For specifically Atheist music, Shostakovich and Prokofiev might count, especially when they were more held down by the Party- the composer’s response to “Just criticism” and all that.
One advantage of believing obvious falsehoods is that one is not tempted to imagine one could know the Truth.
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“One advantage of believing obvious falsehoods is that one is not tempted to imagine one could know the Truth.” Oh, I love this! Did you make it up? It’s excellent.
I’m sure you’re a wonderful organ player but *shudder* organs just don’t do it for me in any context.
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[Breathes on nails, polishes them]
What? Not even the solo from the Glagolitic Mass?
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Sorry *more shudders*
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“organs just don’t do it for me in any context.</em"
I can't speak for all organs, but I have one that over the years, has afforded me a great deal of pleasure, which I've shared at every opportunity..
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There seems to be ‘like’ button for comments but not a ‘whatever!’ button. 😉
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WHAT?! I’m talking about my Hammond!
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Well, I know, I just hate people showing off their organ collections.
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Reblogged this on Atheism VS Christianity.
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Thanks!
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Much, much better.
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Oh, how it warms me cockles to get almost positive feedback from the likes of you!
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I bet! Let’s just hope the tide doesn’t come into Morecambe Bay whilst your cockles are being warmed! Terribly dangerous affair.
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Violet, an interesting exchange between you and Ruth. I would like to add that often people who turn out to be abusers most likely developed abusive behavior because of a culture – environment that nurtures traditions which can negatively impact gene expression and brain development.
Ruth wrote: “It just so happens that religions like Judaism, Christianity, and Islam attract abusers because it gives them justification for their abuse.”
I don’t necessarily think that they attract abusers. They tend to create them when these authoritarian religions are followed by the letter.
Getting back to your OP. My biggest beef with these authoritarian religions is the fact that profound harm is being done, yet it’s taboo to criticize. Published in the British Association for Behavioural & Cognitive Psycholotherapies, Psychologist Marleen Winell writes:
I look forward to the day when moderate and liberal believers start calling out extremism rather than leaving the dirty work for us. I see it in very small numbers but most are reluctant to step up to the plate. Business as usual.
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“I look forward to the day when moderate and liberal believers start calling out extremism rather than leaving the dirty work for us”
Thanks so much for saying this Victoria! It was supposed to be one of the main points of the post, but I got distracted somewhere along the line. I’ve come across quite a lot of Christians here who do, although, apart from Clare, most of them don’t seem to stick around for very long. Must be difficult.
I think all of us have to acknowledge that there are no certainties and that we have to accept there are many things we’ll never know. I wonder if it’s possible to get liberal Christians over to thinking that every individual needs to make up their own mind about the world, and acknowledge, for example, the effects shown in your picture above. But, having been there, I can see how difficult it would be when you believe in the Christian message to shield your kids from what you see as The Truth that their eternal soul depends on – I guess they just need to trust their god God more that if they give their offspring a generic start, if he exists he’ll find them regardless. A new faith game for them? Hmmm, that’s something for a post methinks.
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Very small numbers? British Quakers, most of us, and the other churches are keen to have us in the inter-church organisations. The Greenbelt festival was hoaching with queers like me with microphones. Possibly I see more of it than you do. Violet facilitates an interchange, but most atheist blogs are too uncomfortable for me to bother.
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Quakers are one of the few religious groups that seem reasonable, open and non-heirarchical. The (usually male) authority figure telling people what Truth is, and not being humble enough to acknowledge the vast array of interpretation and practice across time and cultures, is a disturbing feature of most Christian denominations.
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Vast array of practice- one advantage of the Anglican church is that it has quite an array within itself of interpretation and practice. And female bishops, in New Zealand, the US, and soon in England.
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Are you differentiating authoritarian religions from liberal versions of religions? It’s not really clear what you mean by authoritarian. Just fundamentalism?
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I can’t speak for Neuro, but for me, it’s any religion that has magic in it and tells you what to do with your life.
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Hmm, don’t all religions have a supernatural component (i. e. magic?) and what do you mean by “tells you what to do with your life.” In the sense of an absolute commandment or a strong suggestion?
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There is no creed or formal set of beliefs that you have to hold to be a Quaker. This is because:
Quakers think that adopting a creed is taking on belief at second hand – they think that faith should be more personal than that and based on a person’s inner conviction and on taking part in a shared search for the truth with other Quakers.
Quakers believe that faith is something that is always developing and not something frozen at a particular moment in history that can be captured in a fixed code of belief.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/subdivisions/quakers_1.shtml
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Heh. I tend to look at the religion I grew up in as giving really strong suggestions, but not absolutely commandments. Or as it’s sometimes said, “tradition gets a vote, but not a veto!”
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“Hmm, don’t all religions have a supernatural component (i. e. magic?)” – I rest my case.
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Heh. That is what I thought you were saying! Sounds more like a loaded generalization to me, though.
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By George, I think he’s got it!
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So you’re conceding that you’re overgeneralizing. Sounds good to me!
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I don’t think I used the word, “over” – you’re putting words in my mouth, and they don’t taste good.
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I don’t necessarily think that they attract abusers. They tend to create them when these authoritarian religions are followed by the letter.
Perhaps a bit of both? I know many Christians within the authoritarian sect from which I came who were not abusers. Same environment – same culture. I know many who wince at the very thought of abuse and others who embrace it. I guess I’m agreeing with you in a round about way here. Maybe these people who are abusers already have that tendency and when mixed with the authoritarian religious culture it’s a recipe for disaster.
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“Maybe these people who are abusers already have that tendency and when mixed with the authoritarian religious culture it’s a recipe for disaster.”
I do see where you are coming from but if you think about it Ruth, we abuse even when we think it’s righteous. You don’t have children, but is it not abuse to shame children, to tell them there are demons and Satan, and tell children that there is a hell and if you don’t submit to this god, you are going there? How many people teach their children that, or allow their religion to? My parents didn’t teach me about the doctrine of hell, but they allowed the Catholic church to indoctrinate me to fear and be ashamed for being human.
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Oh, I see what you’re saying here. I was specifically talking about violent abusers, which I didn’t make clear. Yes, many of those who wince at even violent or even most forms of emotional abuse will engage in this teaching on shame and hell. The even stranger thing is that they view it as abuse not to teach these things. Because they fear hell and death so much they view this as the only loving thing to do. It’s turned what love should be completely upside down.
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Exactly right. Where I live, which is in the next state to you, it is not uncommon to teach children their they are to follow the will of God, to die to themselves, and “be about their Father’s business”. There’s not a week that goes by when some religion is knocking at my door wanting me to bring the “good news”, and come to their church. They are invasive.
I don’t care if people have a need to believe in a god, so long as they don’t teach abusive doctrine, and don’t discourage critical thinking. Children have enough to contend with without having shame and fear heaped on them in the name of love.
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Correction: I meant to write “wanting me to hear the “good news”
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The question, Victoria, is how to successfully call out the extremism, without getting that same accusation flung back in your face qv Violet’s repost of IB’s checklist. Or the endless Kathy circles. It feels very much to me, on reading around, that the two opposing points of view (because they are opposite) are never going to meet anywhere, let alone halfway. Parallel universes more like.
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Personally, Kate, I think the best way to approach this is via education, though I think it’s going to take time. People need to see how their belief system affects gene expression and brain development, emotional intelligence, and ultimately, the well being of society. Here’s an example:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-secular-life/201410/secular-societies-fare-better-religious-societies
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The problem there is that you are trying to deal with facts, and logical rational thinking. Would those stats convince Kathy, LLAG, IB, ATB, Brendan? Or your pal Diriculous? By using validated studies you are appealing to intellectual people who will analyse the data and make an informed judgement. But that doesn’t appeal to emotion nor does it substitute for the comfort blanket of religion, or to use your words (I’ve been listening) the dopamine buzz.
What’s probably needed is for a significant number of deconverts to get together, compare their reasons and rationale for why, and consider what might be the most effective way to challenge religious beliefs. People like me are of no use at all as I have no insight. But I do think it should be done on more than one level. Or everyone spends time going around in Kathy circles trying patiently to answer her questions, only for her to come back and say, ‘Your’re not answering my questions, you’re not objective or honest, and you are all picking on me.’ (Said in extremely whiney voice).
And as with health promotion messages against smoking and eating and safe sex etc etc, there will always be a hardcore you can never reach. From memory it’s around 10% in health promotion but that’s not a hard figure. And the ones you don’t reach for health messages don’t care. Doesn’t matter what you say. So the ones you won’t reach in religion will be the same, and they will be fundamentalists of whatever religion.
Violet is right in a way, some humans have felt the need to create a religion or a god or gods, or believe in that. And some bright sparks have leapt on the bandwagon and used it for their own benefit. Trying to explain that is the real difficulty.
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Or everyone spends time going around in Kathy circles trying patiently to answer her questions, only for her to come back and say, ‘Your’re not answering my questions, you’re not objective or honest, and you are all picking on me.’ (Said in extremely whiney voice).
I suspect that most people who were having discourse with Kathy already realized she was not going acknowledge the data that was presented to her. But they persisted because as deconvert, themselves, they know there are people (mostly lurkers) who are reading. So I don’t see their education being in vain.
Some people are hyper-religious, a mental disorder, and no amount of facts are going to change their behavior or viewpoints. They need to see a mental health professional. But if you point that out, even though we have an incredible amount of medical studies showing that hyper-religiosity is a major feature of these disorders, it’s still considered taboo to bring this information to the forefront.
And as with health promotion messages against smoking and eating and safe sex etc etc, there will always be a hardcore you can never reach.
That’s where we should focus on prevention. For example, the CDC did an extensive study on adverse childhood experiences and found that children subjected to toxic stress were at high risk for the aforementioned and more.
Their major findings were:
Alcoholism and alcohol abuse
Chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD)
Depression
Fetal death
Health-related quality of life
Illicit drug use
Ischemic heart disease (IHD)
Liver disease
Risk for intimate partner violence
Multiple sexual partners
Sexually transmitted diseases (STDs)
Smoking
Suicide attempts
Unintended pregnancies
Early initiation of smoking
Early initiation of sexual activity
Adolescent pregnancy
http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/acestudy/findings.html
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Sorry, the image didn’t post the first time.
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I can’t stress enough that when you teach children that they are shameful creatures in need of salvation, and that hell awaits them if they don’t submit to authority and the god of their culture, but that their god loves them (cognitive dissonance) , it will affect how they view other humans — also shameful creatures in need of salvation, deserving of hell from a “loving” god who has created a hell if they don’t follow the rules. This profoundly affects emotional intelligence and promotes Othering, tribalism, and ultimately, dysfunction.
When you have a book that teaches corporal punishment as a way to ‘save their soul from hell’, you are fostering the very behaviors that they blame on sin, the devil, etc. They also risk turning on the aggressive gene, primarily activated in males depending on their environment. The studies regarding corporal punishment are conclusive, but overlooked because it’s taboo to criticize something that is promoted in ‘holy’ books. In computer tech speak, garbage in, garbage out.
So, it may not be advantageous to get frustrated with believers who are most likely to follow the majority opinion, even in the face of evidence right before their eyes, it is only understandable that unbelievers get indignant and impatient, and worried. After all, their lives are often profoundly affected, too. I speak from experience.
A cerebral automatism, related to the learning process, gives people the propensity to line up to majority opinion even when it contradicts evidence.
I’ve shared this before, on my blog, but I’ll share here: In 1951, Social Psychologist Solomon Asch did a series of experiments where he seated an individual (subject) in the middle of an assembly set up in a circular arc in front of a screen. Asch projected two images: the first showed an eight-inch-long line; in the second image, three lines — 6, 10, and 8 inches. Asch then asked each participant to show him which line of the three was the same length as that in the first image.
Asch set the experiment up with accomplices. All members of the assembly (the accomplices) deliberately chose the wrong line. In spite of the evidence that was right before the subjects own eyes, 75% of the cases rallied to group opinion, picking the wrong line. Unfortunately, Arch’s and Violets images do show what’s happening.
Even Jesus proclaimed: My sheep know my voice and follow me”. There were some very clever people who wrote, copied and embellished these authoritarian manuscripts. Many people would never see this as a form of dehumanization, but it is.
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I can’t stress enough that when you teach children that they are shameful creatures in need of salvation, and that hell awaits them if they don’t submit to authority and the god of their culture, but that their god loves them (cognitive dissonance) , it will affect how they view other humans — also shameful creatures in need of salvation, deserving of hell from a “loving” god who has created a hell if they don’t follow the rules. This profoundly affects emotional intelligence and promotes Othering, tribalism, and ultimately, dysfunction.
This also affects adults who have, for some reason or another, stunted emotional maturity.
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Indeed. Btw, the findings from that comprehensive (Adverse Childhood Experiences) CDC study came from adults, not children.
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Of course.
My point was that sometimes adults who haven’t even been exposed to religion as children still suffer from this due to an adverse environment of another type in their childhood. Their emotional immaturity leaves them open prey.
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I understand. Any authoritarian environment, whether it has religious underpinnings or not tends to have a direct impact on emotional immaturity. However, rarely has an environment and society not been impacted by authoritarian religion. Even in countries where non-religious dictators rule, they their rules are similar to authoritarian religion. Submit and obey or there’s hell to pay.
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Indeed!
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Let’s place this next to Insanity’s cattle photo:
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Oh, thank you for spotting the subconscious message in my carefully chosen (and beautiful, let’s not forget, wonderful) picture.
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Atheist, Christians, whatever the religion … most of these forget they are called ‘humans’, but think because they ‘label’ themselves, it gives them the right to be jerks. Just like some who think because they have more money and are ‘rich’, that they can go around behaving like a-holes.
Yes, please tell these folks to wake up Violet. In all wakes of life some people just live with blinkers on. Great example that Arch gave there. They are worse than sheep for sure. In this day and age with all the great technology we have, some just ‘follow’ and ‘believe’ others and don’t want to think for themselves. Hellooooo! We’ve got Google! Doh!
That is why I get so furious when it comes to animals and nature. Some of them are just as narrow-minded where it concerns them as they are when it comes to religion.
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Oh Sonel, lovely to see you! This is the first time I’ve ever seen an angry comment from you without a million cute pics and LOLs!!! What’s going on? I get furious about animals too but somewhere along the line I’ve learned to suppress it while I’m tucking into cheese and hoping for the best several generations down the line …
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hahah Violet! Well, thought I’d show you my ‘dark’ side for a change and now you know why I normally don’t comment or take part in posts like these. I don’t like most people and these ‘religious’ types are the worst. Most of them bring out the worst in me and unfortunately we have a few of them here where we live and if I can get my hands around their throats or smother them with something, I will do it, but yeah, it’s not worth it to waste energy on thoughts or disgusting humans like this.
Tucking into cheese sounds good. Don’t forget the beer. 😆
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It is astonishing, isn’t it, to see people who actually really believe in the nonsense. Suitably removed from the belief bubble it becomes so absurd that you’re honestly left scratching your head, wondering how does this silliness continue?
Beyond that, it is always amusing to see Christians pull out the “You’re just as bad as us” argument. Projection is a funny thing… and quite lucrative for psychiatrists, I’m sure.
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Well, first of all, pleased to see you here. It crossed my mind that you might have jumped ship with Ark. It’s one thing to lose his ranty and unreliable presence but blogging life wouldn’t be the same without JZ’s input!
However, looks like you’ve been skim-reading again (or concentrating on the pretty cow picture?) and taken a really odd message from the few words you digested. I agree with Insanity’s comment. Being out of the belief bubble, I am indeed scratching my head frequently, but the whole point of the post is to remember that religion is normal for humans and none of us know everything. Even atheists need to remember that …
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What are you talking about, i’m always here, and Ark will be back. He might have been able to give up smoking, but annoying Christians is just too strong an allure for him to successfully tackle beyond a week or two. Trust me, write a post about Nazareth, and you’ll have pitching a tent in your house.
Yes, I got that part of the post, but I was commenting on your final observations. Perhaps you should re-read the end of your post 😉
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I knew I should have taken that bit out!
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You cannot undo what has been seen
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BTW, are those Scottish cows in that rather lovely All Creatures Great and Small photo? What were you doing in the countryside? (Picking mushrooms?)
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Scotland is countryside! It’s not the vast urban sprawl of your neck of the deforested woods. Can’t go more than 20 minutes without stumbling on cows and greenery – even in the populated central belt.
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If I go over the hill behind me there are men with cowboy hats riding horses. I’m not kidding.
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Photo?
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Are you insane! They. Are. Cowboys… On. Horses. You don’t take photos of such people.
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You so just live in a grotty flat in Melbourne and you’ve got some proxy server bounce thing set up to make it look like you’re somewhere cool. Cowboys my ass. …. Unless you can deliver proof in the form of authentic photo.
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Melbourne!? Shudder. Now you’re just being cruel!
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I could have been crueller and said Adelaide … or Canberra!
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I love Canberra! Lived there for five years
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*tumbleweed* I love Alice Springs – perhaps the best four months of my life! 😀
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Alice is OK, but not great. Kununurra in the Kimberly’s is my favourite backwater. That place is just insane
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What were doing in Alice, anyway.
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What were *you* doing…
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Most people take what is good about their ideologies and abandon most of what is bad. This includes religions. The trouble with very authorative ideologies and religions is, that they provide people with an easy escape from using their brains. Authorative systems are deliberately (and frankly intelligently) designed like that, as they provide power to those who speak for the authority.
Atheism is not an ideology. It is a simple conclusion about the truth value of the proclamations of authority by religions. Does that turn atheists into some particular form and similar to the zealots of any particular religion? I think not, but sometimes atheists do talk the talk of the fundamentalists, because that is what they face.
The fundies claim to take their holy books for real, but when the atheist reads the book, he/she can just as well read into it what was really written as any of the versions religious people and thousands of denominations of any older religion has read into the very same “scriptures”. When an atheist points the finger at the evil of any particular god, or religion, it is not an admission of the existance of that god, nor of some version of reality, that the religion has to offer. For a person to even be an atheist this is the most simple qualification of that person. But the believers, in their desperation of not having any actual defences to the fairytales they have assimilated in their ignorance and in their infantile hope for an athorative character to set the world right, again and again resort to it as if it somehow proved, that the position of atheism was nothing more then a faith based belief. And in so doing they themselves admit that “faith” – as a belief in something they actually can not prove – is a poor method of determining reality.
Judgmental? Yes, maybe, but I would never judge anyone to suffer for an eternity. That is just vile. My atheism informs me to judge the unethical practices that get by in societies by appeals to the authority of gods.
Prone to mock the less fortunate? I mock the religious sometimes, in hope that the ridicule, at least, would drive them into thinking, but alas, it often only drives them into deeper denial of reality. Still, I do live in the hope that even if they make up excuses for their god in defence of my mockery, the process of coming up with the excuses would lead them onto a path where they critically examine both my claims and their gods excuses and ultimately would find the excuses to be what they are – excuses.
Convinced of their vast moral superiority? Indeed. If my morality is based on me choosing to act, or not to act by what I believe is right, I am morally superior to anyone who makes the same descision based on wether they are rewarded or punished in the imaginary afterlife. Actually, I am morally superior even if there exists an afterlife where rewards and punishments are dealt on people. And yes, I am morally superior to any person, or god that thinks might makes right. Am I not?
Elitist and privileged? I am priviledged to live in a western country where education is for free and I have drank deeply from that fountain. I suppose in that sense am part of an elite, but my atheism is a result of it rather than that I was elite because I am an atheist. Quite the opposite. Worldwidely atheists are very much dispised and suspected people. Why? Because we challenge the political power of religious demagogues who would lead the masses by their gullibility and childhood indoctrination.
Ruled by hyperbole and knee jerk emotionalism? I do not see what is wrong about hyperbole. Am I ruled by it? No I am not. How dare anyone even claim I am ruled by hyperbole just because I am an atheist? What is knee jerk emotionalism? If this is supposed to refer to appeals to empathy, then it is just silly. Both atheists and fundies are humans and humans have this evolutionary survival mechanism of the social species to be empathetic (we share it with both chimpanzee and guineapig alike). It is a good survival method and being ruled by it (as suggested by some historical characters like Gongfutius and Zoroaster and by some pseudo historical characters like Buddha, Laoze and Jesus) is only accepting our own biology.
Prone to be abusive and controlling? Of what are the atheists being abusive and controlling over? Most atheists I know are humanists who emphasize the value of free choises – as long as those choises are not infringing on the rights of others. Even the mildest forms of religions however, have lists of arbitrary rules, that are not based on any ethical reasoning.
“If you guys are going to act like the most extreme fundamentalist Christian, the least you could do is get yourselves some music.” What is wrong with Motörhead? As I said atheism is only a simple position on single issue. Why should atheists have some incommon music? Humanists prefer freedom of choise. Would having atheist music revert us back to the level of the religious sects? Is this just a nother attempt to pull us down to the level of just a nother religion?
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Nice retort Raut! But then you’re a thoughtful and gentle atheist type. I haven’t seen a single Christian (not even the craziest of the bunch) get riled by anything you’ve said, and you’ve been in a lot of long exchanges with a lot of Christians.
I think we all know the ranting and rabid type of atheist that Insanity is referring to, and they really aren’t that different in style and feature to the average ranting fundamentalist. I know I certainly can go in that direction when I get furious with it all, but the whitewashing and demonising of all those who have religious beliefs really doesn’t make that much sense.
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“The trouble with very authorative ideologies and religions is, that they provide people with an easy escape from using their brains.”
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I agree somewhat with Insanity for different reasons. It’s not that atheism is the same as religion. It’s that people are prone to cognitive biases and heuristics. I don’t buy that all these magically disappear the minute a person calls themselves an atheist or even if they get a good education or are relatively intelligent.
In-group and Out-group behavior can be reinforced by religion, but it can also be fomented by any type of group identification. We are pretty good at noticing when others are being biased or flawed in their thinking, but we suck at noticing our own biases and flaws in our own thinking (the bias blind spot).
I’ve long suspected that dogmatic people who are religious remain dogmatic people if they become atheist. Note: what is really being said here isn’t atheists are just like religious people, but rather a person who happens to be dogmatic will likely remain dogmatic. Indeed, Chris Silver developed a typology for atheism as part of his dissertation and identified at least 6 different types (there is overlap between types, so it is where one fits best). Unsurprisingly, the type of atheist he labeled Anti-Theist scored the highest on the Rokeach Dogmatism Scale and Narcissism (link).
With that said we all learn from our experiences and we each have different experiences in regards to religion. If a person comes from an authoritarian style of religious belief it isn’t hard to see why they would be antagonistic and feel that they were lied to, or feel that they wasted large portions of their life on this crap, etc.
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An argumentative person will always be argumentative. I’m a case in point. I knew best as a Christian and I know best now. I’m disturbed to think what I’ll know best about in 20 years time … 😀
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If only you could travel back in time and have your argumentative atheist self argue with your argumentative Christian self! That would be an interesting discussion!
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Groan, or just immensely painful! 🙂
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Superbly explained. In the end it does seem to be more about method than about the alleged actual ‘end’ belief. A flawed method that leads someone to religionism can be re-directed and then lead them to atheism. The primordial problem being that they still depend on a certain (high) degree of pre-packaged material.
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One of the oddest things I discovered in Europe was a fad of atheists defining themselves as “Catholic atheists” or “Protestant atheists” depending on their cultural roots. A Spaniard is a Catholic Atheist, a French Huguenot a Protestant Atheist, etc. It seemed absurd at the time, but after a while it made sense: a “Catholic atheist” was more of an anti-clerical and cultural critic, the “Protestant atheist” more of a rationalist.
Here in the Anglo-sphere, I fear we are stuck with “Evangelical Atheists”. Arguing with an English-speaking atheist is eerily like arguing with an Evangelical Protestant: Biblical citations made without reference to context are taken to be some kind of argument, textual criticism ignored, philosophy or anthropology are dismissed as “human reasoning” or “talking around the issue”, ideological pet peeves blown out of proportion, binary logic (why must everything be either-or with such people? Why never both-and?)…
You all deserve one another.
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But the question is, who do you deserve?
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I doubt it is THE question, but I’ll entertain it.
In my head I often hold debates with George Orwell. I don’t deserve him, but someone like that would be my ideal interlocutor.
Whom do I really deserve? Probably someone a little flippant.
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Well, I think you deserve Ark. You’re a lovely debating couple. In fact, you should pop over and say hello. He’s threatening to drop all his old habits and maybe he needs someone like you to remind him how much fun he can have.
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I’m afraid we bring out the worst in each other.
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“You all deserve one another.” – but none of us, DP, to the best of my knowledge, has done anything so grievous as to deserve you.
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I suppose you didn’t quite understand the notion of what a Catholic or Protestant atheist actually is. We’re people who were raised in cultures influenced by one or another religion and might even practice their traditions, but do not believe in a deity. Not unlike many of the Jewish persuasion.
In my case I went to a Catholic school, went through all the customs, but never believed in Catholicism as anything other than one of many socio-political systems mankind created to advance tribal (and/or personal) interests.
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We are not talking about quite the same thing.
I’m sure your experience is a common one, especially among people with a strong historical and aesthetic sense. I imagine if I were to lose my faith I would still listen to Palestrina or even occasionally attend Mass. I’ve met atheists from a Protestant background who still enjoy the King James Bible.
What I’m referring to is a little different: Catholic and Protestant cultures are different, so the rejection of belief in God implies a rejection of a different set of cultural baggage, even as one is immersed in that culture. For example, a “Catholic atheist” in the sense I’m referring to will likely be an anti-Clerical, while for an atheist from Protestant culture clericalism is not much of a problem. I’m from the United States, which is culturally Protestant and never had a clerical class, so it took me a long time to understand European anti-clericalism, and I’m still indifferent to it: not my culture, not my problem.
You refer to tribalism: atheism can also be a kind of tribalism marked by an “us vs them” mentality: I’m always surprised by atheists who claim to “believe” in evolution but only have a vague sense of what evolution is (I’m looking at you Violetwisp). They believe in it not because they have studied it but because they are rejecting the tribal markings of fundamentalism, where you have to believe the Bible is a scientific text in order to be a good member of the tribe. That is why I claimed above that in the English speaking world, atheism is culturally “Evangelical”: it is locked into Evangelical (or fundamentalist) thought patterns.
Anyway, I’m not trying to disagree with you experience, just flesh out an observation.
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“I’ve met atheists from a Protestant background who still enjoy the King James Bible.”
Well you can certainly count me among them, I couldn’t do without it! I have a coffee table with one leg shorter than the rest —
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Forgive my digression and listen to the video below. Everyone knows Cats, but few know Lloyd Webber created an extraordinary Requiem. The only great one since the great ones.
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Sigh, I’m embarrassed to say I used to play this obsessively as an uncool teenager … thanks for bringing back the memory.
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LIAR!!!!!!!!!!!
You were listening to this 😀
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I realize that this is off-topic, but it’s Sunday,, all the little church-mice are praying their little hearts out, and the wisest of us slept in, so I’m posting this – if they can celebrate their invisible sky-daddy, we can certainly take a moment to celebrate Humanity and wish that this really happened, instead of being the best commercial ever filmed.
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This comment got put in the Spam bin, how odd!
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Since we’re digressing – it IS Sunday morning, all the little churchmice are in church and all wise atheists still in bed, so I’m posting this in celebration of Humanity, wishing things could really be this way, instead of this being (spoiler alert!) the best TV commercial ever filmed.
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“Ode to Joy” – a perfect hymn for the celebration of Humanity, of coming together united by our commonality – of life!
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We needn’t be puerile. As both an atheist and art historian, I’m perfectly willing to recognize the value of religious art. So let’s not throw the baby out with the bathwater 😉
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Not sure what you’re saying, Pink, since your comment seems addressed to me – where did I denigrate religious art?
“Puerile“?
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A case can definitely be made for the Bible as great literature. I’ve been slowly transferring over my old Bible as literature posts from my old blog onto Consolation of Reading, which you might appreciate (I’ve done Genesis 1 – 3, so far).
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Pingback: For Your Eyes Only | roughseasinthemed
The very reason I don’t waste my time with atheist bloggers. 🙂
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Yet here you are —
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But not wasting my time. 😉 There lies the difference. 🙂
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This painting, by an obviously very talented, but somewhat lacking in the sciences, artist, was included in a Scottish Creationist magazine as late as last year. Hopefully even Pink can see that while I disdain the subject matter, I can appreciate the talent, however wasted, behind the work.
“Purile!” – really?
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