ridiculous religion: worshipping the perfectly good god God
Let’s be clear that these views are not explicitly held by all Christians. I am hand picking a special collection, sometimes referred to as the ‘low hanging fruit’. And yet, how would the normal Christians wriggle out of this one?
THE God, who in the beginning created the heavens and the earth, is Himself the standard by which ALL things are measured. That means when he commands Joshua to kill every man, women, child and beast in Canaan that that is PERFECTLY holy, righteous, just and good. It means that when he causes Israel to eat their own children as reported in Jeremiah 19 that that is PERFECTLY holy righteous, just and good. It means that if He has decreed all of the horrific human misery, suffering and death in all of history that that is PERFECTLY holy righteous, just and good. It means that if He has decreed the existence of billions of human beings for the expressed purpose of casting them into the lake of fire in judgement for sin that He also decreed that that is PERFECTLY holy, righteous, just and good. It means that if He has purposed that everything we consider to be pointless evil, immorally unjust and unthinkably unfair shall be so ordered by divine mechanisms known only to Himself, to His own glory for reasons sufficient unto Himself that that isPERFECTLY holy, righteous, just and good.
It also means that His not caring one bit how you (or I) feel about that is most assuredly PERFECTLY holy, righteous, just and good. I sleep like a baby knowing that every time I hear about some gut wrenching blood curdling act of barbaric depravity that my Father God has from eternity seen fit to assign purpose to it that is PERFECTLY holy, righteous, just and good. IF IT WERE MY OWN FAMILY? You ask? Most ESPECIALLY then would I fall to my knees and worship Him knowing that evil has NOT triumphed, but that a PERFECTLY holy, righteous, just, good AND LOVING God who calls me brother, bride and son though I myself belong in that lake of fire will receive honor and glory by my praising His name while the world loses it’s collective mind. EveryTHING and everyONE belongs to HIM. His exaltation and glory IS the purpose for all that is. No more PERFECTLY purpose could ever exist.
So thankful you put that lovely hummingbird in that picture, Violet.
The rest of that verbal vomit was difficult to read. Jesus H. Christ.
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Why so harsh? I thought you were a Tiribulus fan. 😀
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Let’s be real. Christians stole it from Jews.
native peoples of America (not all but many) believed in the heavenly spirit father. They believe all those same statements about creating everything ect…
Christians are far from unique and far from the only ones who believe themselves absolutely right and everyone else wrong. And all because of some book written by man but yet held as holy from god.
Think about the stupidity of that alone. There are over 40 versions of the “holy” untouched perfect bible word of god. There are over 1000 unique variants of Christianity. It’s sad how as supposedly holy and perfect book needs more than 40 variants. And so many sects of Christianity.
/smh
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I am actually embarrassed for you Michelle. Sincerely. I can’t hardly watch anymore.
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Can’t hardly reply because you’re wrong flat out. But I’ll let you use an excuse and keave.
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I don’t need an excuse to leave Michelle. I have going on 300 comments here. Some of which I spent a great deal of time on. We’ve watched videos together and at times been friendly. I even got a chuckle out of Victoria one time. (true story) You know less about me than you do about Christianity.
Like Arch, you can be much better than this. Read over the conversations between Ruth and I. She IS dangerous because she is knowledgeable and levelheaded and wise according to the world. She will damage somebody’s faith long before you will. As it is now you are good for an eye roll and not much else. I’m trying to help you be a more effective pagan, but I don’t think you’re gonna listen.
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I am knowledgeable and level headed. The only difference is I know your faith is hog wash. Your book didn’t even translate the Torah correctly. I’m fine praying to my god the one and only heavenly father. The same Jesus prayed too. The same he was willing to die for rather than denounce. .
But since you don’t read Hebrew you wouldn’t even know your book starts out flawed by the hands of man.
Enjoy.
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“I’m trying to help you be a more effective pagan” – That’s irony, T, as diatribes such as yours above are like recruiting posters for atheism, anyone reading it will readily think, “If that’s Christianity, I want no part of it!” So thanks, T.
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That’s how I know I’m doing it right. Most people are supposed to reject the truth.
I’m genuinely glad to see you here Arch.
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I think Terribulus needs a hug. Divine Command Theory can make one feel out of sorts on even the best day. Can’t imagine what it does to people who actually espouse it.
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That’s really nice, thanks for not attacking the poor man.
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What I’m reading from Trib is a complete capitulation of moral responsibility no different in method and effect than the total moral capitulation of SS troops carrying out the final solution, or ISIS adherents decapitating people for apostasy. Trib is a moral automaton – just like these others – a pathological condition of brain dysfunction brought on by a Pavlovian dopamine release every time he exercises religious piety of personal submission.
I don’t think he can help himself now that he’s addicted but he does need help. His brain isn’t working like the brain of a morally healthy autonomous adult, which is why he finds his slavery to his biblical god so comforting and rewarding. It takes training and dedication to reach this point so the neural pathways religious belief has groomed for him are strong. So, too, will be his anger at the scope of the betrayal if anything should crack this crystalline belief where even the morality of killing innocents doesn’t so much as raise a moral eyebrow of the acolyte in spite of specific divine commandments from the same source to the contrary.
Very sad.
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I don’t think anyone could have possibly laid this out better than you have here.
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It is most annoying to read a comment and think, how well expressed was that, only to find you have got there before me!
What on earth were you doing up before lunchtime? Turned over a new bourgeois leaf? 😉
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How in the world do you remember that bourgeois line?
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Thanks, PA.
I have come to understand the rage and depression of many believers who lose their faith (and the community to which they once thought loved them for themselves) and wonder how on earth they could have ever been so credulous to begin with, so willing to take on board really bad ideas of not just little moral merit but clearly immoral and highly unethical, and to live these inauthentic values.
This personal recognition of just how damaging is the religious mindset when the person has done his or her part to exercise it daily – and who then come to understand the scope of the betrayal about how it distorts one’s ability to live an authentic life (filled with honest “I don’t knows”) and every relationship within it – is very hard on people’s mental health.
No believing as one once did is is not a switch that can be thrown but so often an ordeal – a painful one – that must be traversed. Overcoming the religious indoctrination usually requires a lot of work to get back one’s autonomy, one’s sense of personal value, one’s actual and very real life and relationships built on this honesty. If successful, the growing sense of personal worth, honest choices, new pursuits, and the freedom to follow one’s own path makes this effort empowering and worthwhile, but it tends to turn the accompanying anger not so much against the religious agents of this betrayal (because they’ve been duped, too) but towards the religious method of thinking.
And that’s why so many ex-believers are so vocal and so loudly critical with such a low tolerance of religious apologetics they themselves once exercised so thoughtlessly. They know the game and the score, the skewed rules, and now recognize the tilted playing field… all of which is supported only by those who fail to recognize the obvious dysfunction this produces through the thick fog that is religious belief. This is a brain problem that we can self-correct by learning. But, like most teaching reality provides, we tend to get the punishment first and have to figure out the lesson later. A better understanding of neuroscience goes a very long way to helping do this learning.
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What Pink said
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There are 2 kinds of people on this earth Violet. Those who have been born into sin and death in the first man Adam and those who have been born again, into new and everlasting life in Christ, the last Adam. (1 Cor 15)
We’ve been through this. EVERYbody, including me, deserves the same lake of fire. For reasons sufficient unto Himself, God sovereignly elects to save some of them. Here from my Facebook page.
I did not write this. A guy I met one time calling himself simply “Reformed Baptist” wrote it. I grabbed it then. VERY good:
==================================================
TULIP Explained
Total Depravity:
This does not mean that all persons are as bad as they could possibly be. It means rather that all human beings are affected by sin in every area of thought and conduct so that nothing that comes out of anyone apart from the regenerating grace of God can please God. As far as our relationships to God are concerned, we are all so ruined by sin that no one can properly understand either God or God’s ways. Nor do we seek God, unless He is first at work within us to lead us to do so.
Unconditional Election:
An emphasis on election bothers many people, but the problem they feel is not actually with election; it is with depravity. If sinners are as helpless in their depravity as the Bible says they are, unable to know and unwilling to seek God, then the only way they could possibly be saved is for God to take the initiative to change and save them. This is what election means. It is God choosing to save those who, apart from His sovereign choice and subsequent action, certainly would perish.
Limited Atonement:
The name is potentially misleading, for it seems to suggest that reformed people want somehow to restrict the value of Christ’s death. This is not the case. The value of Jesus’ death is infinite. The question rather is what the purpose of Christ‟s death is, and what He accomplished in it. Did Christ intend to make salvation no more than possible? Or did He actually save those for whom He died? Reformed theology stresses that Jesus actually atoned for the sins of those the Father had chosen. He actually propitiated the wrath of God toward His people by taking their judgment upon Himself, actually redeemed them, and actually reconciled those specific persons to God. A better name for “limited” atonement would be “particular” or “specific” redemption. Sometimes it is said: “Sufficient for all; efficient for the elect.”
Irresistible Grace:
Left to ourselves we resist the grace of God. But when God works in our hearts, regenerating us and creating a renewed will within, then what was undesirable before becomes highly desirable, and we run to Jesus just as previously we ran away from Him. Fallen sinners do resist God’s grace, but His regenerating grace is effectual. It overcomes sin and accomplishes God’s purpose.
Perseverance Of The Saints:
A better name might be “the perseverance of God with the saints,” but both ideas are actually involved. God perseveres with us, keeping us from falling away, as we would certainly do if He were not with us. But because He perseveres we also persevere. In fact, perseverance is the ultimate proof of election. We persevere because God preserves us from full and final falling away from Him.
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I’m not clear why you’re posting this Tulip thing again. What do you expect people to take from it? Even if I was still a Christian I would find such ramblings nonsense.
” we are all so ruined by sin”
Here lies your problem. You’ve clearly done some things in your life that you consider to be really bad, and I’m guessing you still have a pull to do really bad things. This being the case, I’m sorry to inform you that it’s due to some bad experiences in your life (absent/unloving parents?) or some unfortunate miswiring. I think it’s particularly sad that you look around at other people and view them in this manner.
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I think Terribulus needs a hug. Divine Command Theory can make one feel out of sorts on even the best day. Can’t imagine what it does to people who actually espouse it.
This was the most predominant view of Christianity at the founding of the United States. Yes, that’s a fact. Look it up. Ruth, I don’t suppose you’d be willing to help me out again? We’re back on the same street. For about the tenth time.
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Ahh yes the good Christians who founded this nation. Already posted about that.
This nation wasn’t founded by Christians it was STOLEN by them. How many commandments did they break to “found” this nation?
Let’s see for starters. “You shall not murder.” I’d say the genocide of the 10s of millions who already lived here counts as murder.
You shall not commit adultery. The systematic rape of the native women who were married under their god and joined as a couple would constitute adultery.
You shall not steal. “You stole our land through deception and force.
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. Again you misrepresented and took advantage, you slandered us as the savages all the while continuing your genocidal war. Who was the savage sir?
You shall not covet. You coveted and stole our land, or identity, force converted, lied to and murdered my people.
Your “Christian” forefathers broke half your sacred commandments in the “founding”. You stole our ideas about nations. Honestly I’d be ashamed to make this claim fool.
Yup that is exactly what good Chrisitians are. They murder, steal, lie, rape, and bear false witness then claim moral superiority. The whole faith is hogwash!
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Because I didn’t get a reply directly, I didn’t know this reply had existed. Sorry for the late response!
Are you sure you want to go with the “plenty of people believed it, so it can’t be wrong” approach? Plenty of people believed in witchcraft at the founding of this nation; should we go back to burning witches? At the founding of the U.S., plenty of people believed phrenology was an accurate way of determining one’s personality type (this was done by examining bumps on the head). Does that make it more valid as a legitimate inquiry into human behavior?
There are plenty of Hindus and Buddhists out there. Does that mean that we should eschew Christianity and go for those beliefs? Or, if Islam becomes the world’s predominant religion, should everyone stop being lame and devote one’s life to God in that way? Billions of Muslims exist. They can’t all be wrong.
I invite you to consider the implications of your belief system. You are essentially arguing that God makes whatever he commands right. Your burdens are proving that there is a God, that this God issues commands, that there is a way to determine what these commands are (as opposed to hallucinations or other misguided interpretation), and that these commands deserve special dispensation from lawful authorities.
This means that under your view, God can kill you and send you to Hell (breaking his own promise) because whatever he says is right.
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There are some people that need to be taken out of society and placed in an institution.
Tiribulis is one of them.
I am trying so hard not to be rude, Violet.
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He just needs a hug.
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Really? My first thought was something along the vernacular lines of, ”Have sex and travel.”
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Would you have said that to me, Ruth and Victoria 20 years ago? For shame!
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If you had behaved as Tiribulis – quite likely.
It is not my place to tell him what to believe. He is an adult – god help us – but I have every right to tell him to keep it to himself. Thus, if he wishes to engage on an open forum in the manner that he does then the gloves come off.
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If God has predestined all of us to Hell or Heaven, between us already there is a great gulf fixed. If God knows you will enter his Kingdom, Violet, Tiribulus and others will provoke your great change of heart.
My own link will work after midnight BST, as I only post once a day: https://clareflourish.wordpress.com/2015/05/13/the-kindom-of-heaven
The Kin-dom of Heaven is here! Complete with Bible references and everything!
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Claire I think Trib needs a date with a real woman like you 😉
I know he is probably WELL beneath your standards but maybe you can enlighten him and give him some self-respect at the same time. I’d offer him a hug but my wife doesn’t like me hugging strange men. They certainly don’t get any stranger than him..
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You see, I feel Christianity can make us either “Build a hell in heaven’s despite” or “Build a heaven in Hell’s despair”. I rather hope the latter, but Trib’s Evangelical Christianity as a logical worked out system seems to do the former. Heaven is here, now. We open our eyes and see it, we build it and make it, following the example of Christ. Or it is meaningless, pie in the sky when you die, and how crap is that?
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For some like me heaven is certainly not birth. I embrace the day I’m taking from this hell.
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You see, I feel Christianity can make us either “Build a hell in heaven’s despite” or “Build a heaven in Hell’s despair”.
Because Christian believers seem to be split on which is which, which one to follow, which one to implement, it seems obvious to me they have achieved neither because they cancel each other’s works out. This is not surprising.
If one wishes to make the world a better place, the Christian approach has a good long history of failure and seems to me doomed to continue to achieve exactly this. Why not do one’s part to make the world a better place for good reasons alone?
Shocking, I know.
Why this bizarre need to frame these good works in religious terms, this subservient mentality to offer good works to some god as if affecting some divine tally sheet? Are reasons such as, “Medical aid where it is needed most. Independent. Neutral. Impartial” somehow less worthy of goodness because this mission statement doesn’t include some osculating of a religious rump? It seems to me such organizations as Doctors Without Borders that reject some obsequious pandering to religious sensibilities is the only way to focus on addressing real problems in a rational and productive manner. The reason, “Because we can” seems to me far superior in moral quality than “Because I am willing to serve the interests of my god.”
I still don’t think one can be a morally responsible and autonomous adult if one continues to pass this responsibility on to serving the vague wishes of some god while assuming this servitude to god rather than one’s fellow creatures a virtue.
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Alas! You don’t think me a morally autonomous adult! Eheu fugaces!
There are billions of us! Christians are split on everything!
I am not sure I serve God rather than my fellow human beings, because I am not sure I distinguish the two. I had a strong sense, once, that human beings are all in it together, and God is in it with us; and on Monday last week a strong sense of the Love of God for me; and it feels like a religious experience, whether it might be explained by neurons and dendrites firing or not.
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Clare, I don’t think you can be autonomous without first accepting responsibility. The believer usually dodges this responsibility by attributing it to some god and calls it piety, calls it obedience to some god’s will, submission to some god’s rules and regulations, some kind flocking behaviour, I guess, with all the sheep references to god’s role as shepherd… unless, of course, you feel you are responsible for what your god thinks, you are responsible for what your god does, you are responsible for god’s moral standard.
I have yet to meet such a believer.
So yes, I do not think you are a morally autonomous adult… yet. My hopes, however, spring eternal.
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Well-
I did not choose when, where or to whom I was born, which is probably the greatest influence on me. So much happens by accident. I had a very pleasant afternoon with a woman I met on the train, and had I not walked down the escalator and got the tube just as it came in, I would never have met her. Sheep references to me mean the essential beneficence of the world, a belief in which helps me to function (whether illusory or not). Sometimes it feels like God is prompting me, though the unconscious processes may be interpreted materially. I do not understand quantum theory, but cling to it as a possibility of free will. I am responsible for my actions, and most Christians would claim the same.
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I offer that the Tb fellow is sick in the head and needs help or he is an idiot and needs help.
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He’s just lost perspective. It may return, as it has to many of us here.
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I wish him well
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My thoughts on TB have not altered one bit: He should be denied access to all children. He is mentally ill, and should not be allowed within 50m of any child.
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Sigh. I feel bad now for the poor misguided guy, opening him up to such criticism. He’s only saying out loud what most of the rest of Christianity believe. I posted this because he didn’t consider himself low hanging fruit, which made me laugh.
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No need to sigh. he knows how i feel about him. I’ve told him exactly that in the past.
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I missed your question about wriggling out. We don’t, generally: we attempt to justify it, more winsomely perhaps than Tiribulus. The answer is Theodicy; this is my attempt: you will see I have Alexander Pope, though not Voltaire, on my side.
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Thanks for giving it a go. I was going to comment that the silence proved my point.
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Sorry busy. I love ya’ll, but ya ain’t my top priority. Genuinely nuthin personal.
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Oh I know, you always get ‘busy’ when the discussion gets difficult for you.
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Violet says: “Oh I know, you always get ‘busy’ when the discussion gets difficult for you.”
AND
“Hi Greg, … I know you’re not reluctant to tackle difficult issues…”
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Em, that was two months ago, before you bailed out of yet more conversations. Besides, that wasn’t a unique message to you, I sent it to several Christians. 😉
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If by bailing out of conversations, you mean foreseeing a time commitment that I cannot find present justification for on this site, then I plead guilty.
I was having to endlessly repeat myself by last November and it’s been downhill from there. (Except with Ruth)
I don’t mind offending people when necessary, but the following isn’t actually even meant to be offensive. The collective mentality on this website is limited to short pretty much independent soundbites. Systematic thought is just about nonexistent (except Ruth). Your recent additions fit right in.
When I see that a topic is going to require a substantial commitment of time because other parts of the system must be brought into play in order to properly extrapolate the part under present discussion, having seen the blank stares and constant repetition I’ve gotten in the past, I “bail”. Or at least step back.
I have other discussions going right now, one in particular, That I’ve been praying for for a long time and hence where that time commitment is justified. With officers of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. (OPC) Men who really REALLY should know better, but who espouse the same lobotomized post modern epistemology you folks do here. From the human standpoint they are not more important than you are. From the standpoint of the call God has given me, the mission is more important. That would require a very systematic explanation.
I hasten to clarify that what I am saying to you has literally nothing to do with intelligence, or the lack thereof. There is no shortage of smarts around here. Plenty of potential horsepower, but some pitifully watered down fuel. Except Ruth who still retains some octane from her previous life, which again, makes her even more accountable. (more systematic explanation required)
I’ll participate here as I see fit according to what I perceive best serves the purposes God has for me on this earth. What you think about that is up to you. Not that you’ll care very much, but I’ll like you anyway 🙂
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The collective mentality on this website is limited to short pretty much independent soundbites. Systematic thought is just about nonexistent (except Ruth).
Bite your tongue! I always explain my reasoning so that others can point out where I may have gone wrong. If this is the case, I fix it. You might want to give that a shot because it’s the very first step in learning how to think critically, namely, accepting the fact that one can be mistaken. In spite of your religious beliefs to the contrary, this includes you.
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That is most assuredly not the very first step in critical thinking. Or any other kind of thinking. See Ruth? This is what we were talking about all that time. To the extent that one agrees with the alone true and living God. one can no more be mistaken that He can.
I can be and am mistaken sometimes. He never is. I’m still learning. He’s never learned anything. He’s always known everything.
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Messed up shit!
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In his book, 1984, George Orwell coined the term doublethink, which has been defined as not just the ability to say that black is white, but
”
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