we must be reading different books
you may care to admit, that there is no other book on earth such as the word of God. Even if you hated every word, did not believe one word of it, you could not honestly deny its past, merit, influence, laws, grace, wisdom, history, geography, hope, promises, and confident assertions. Even the devil would chastise you for such denials. (Colorstorm)
My current blog muse is the charming master of the lyrical sweeping statement, invariably paying scant attention to logic, and with little or no factual underpinning. It’s a delight to read his words and an even greater pleasure to ponder the lack of sense.
Take the quote above. When I meditate on the many qualities of the Christian holy book, I don’t quite come to same conclusions as Colorstorm.
Influence: of no relevance
The actions of people identifying as Christians, purporting to be acting in accordance with the Bible, have indeed had a huge influence on Western society. But something has to influence every culture and society. Mohammed influenced the Middle East, Buddha influenced the Far East – get the picture? In terms of any kind of Truth, they all mutually exclude each other.
But of even more relevance is the fact that if the example of the character Jesus had been a genuine influence, all Christians would be living in communal poverty: not building greed-driven, individualistic, capitalist societies. And if the Old Testament was an influence, we’d be stoning most of the population to death.
Laws: disgraceful and repugnant
If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. (Deuteronomy 22:28-20)
If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. (Leviticus 20:13)
If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity. (Deuteronomy 25:11-12)
Wisdom: commonplace
Regard your neighbor’s gain as your own gain, and your neighbor’s loss as your own loss. (Laozi, 6th century BCE)
Avoid doing what you would blame others for doing (Thales, 6th century BCE)
Do not impose on others what you do not wish for yourself. (Confucius, 4th Century BCE)
Do to others as you would have them do to you. (Jesus, 1st Century CE)
History: myth and fantasy sometimes loosely based on true events
Marine archaeologists have found the first evidence of a people who perished in a great flood of the Black Sea that has been linked with the story of Noah’s ark. … About 7,000 years ago, according to geological evidence, the rising Mediterranean sea pushed a channel through what is now the Bosphorus, and then seawater poured in at about 200 times the volume of Niagara Falls. The Black Sea would have widened at the rate of a mile a day, submerging the original shoreline under hundreds of feet of salty water. Nearly 100,000 square miles were inundated. (Guardian article)
I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made. (Genesis 7:4)
Geography: so what?
A book written by people about the area they live in. Are we to be divinely impressed by place names?
Hope, promises and confident assertions: or threats, fear-mongering and general nastiness
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars–they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death. (Revelation 21:8)
If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. (Mark 9:43)
I’d like to thank Colorstorm for providing his thoughts on the inherent qualities found in the Christian holy book. But, based on the list above, I have to wonder if we’re reading different books.
Yep, CS and his rose-coloured glasses. . . he (and countless others) use a heavy dose of imagination when interpreting what I refer to as my least favourite fiction. It works for THEM! 🙂
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Least favourite? There must be some redeeming features. I sometimes like reading Proverbs, it’s like a watered-down and less moral Aesop Fable (without the fun animals and good stories).
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Colorstorm supports crimes against humanity if his cultural god did/does it, or tells others to do it. You simply can’t reason with people who justify the behavior of psychopathic dictators.
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Like we used to. 😉 I’m sure there’s hope for the cuddly lion. For example, he’d love the rules in Islam.
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Violet, I never supported the psychopathic behavior. It’s called cognitive dissonance.
Hope for CS? Don’t hold your breath. He’s a Pat Robertson – Jerry Falwell personality type.
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Rephrase: “He’s a poor man’s Pat Robertson – Jerry Falwell personality type.“
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Kill People Who Don’t Listen to Priests
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
Kill Witches
You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)
Kill Homosexuals
“If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.” (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
Kill Fortunetellers
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)
Death for Hitting Dad
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)
Death for Cursing Parents
1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)
Death for Adultery
If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
Death for Fornication
A priest’s daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
Death to Followers of Other Religions
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)
Kill Nonbelievers
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Kill False Prophets
If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, “You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord.” When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)
Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. “The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him.” (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night
But if this charge is true (that she wasn’t a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father’s house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)
Kill Followers of Other Religions.
1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)
2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)
Death for Blasphemy
One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD’s name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother’s name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD’s will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, “Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD’s name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD’s name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)
Kill False Prophets
1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, ‘Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,’ do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)
2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.’ You may wonder, ‘How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?’ If the prophet predicts something in the LORD’s name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)
Infidels and Gays Should Die
So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other’s bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God’s death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)
Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle
For the LORD had said to Moses, ‘Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites. You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment. They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it. Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again. Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.’ (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)
Kill People for Working on the Sabbath
The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: ‘Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.’ (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)
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Interesting choice of names – I like it!
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Thank you. Who are you?
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I’m wondering that, too
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That’s what they said about the Lone Ranger.
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Wow they like killing…
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They like eliminating anyone who doesn’t believe as they do, and that process is still ongoing.
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Ah yes, the quintessential trollster.
Now then, have any of these commands that you are so proud of referring to been given to YOU?
Of course not, and thus your tampering with scripture has been dutifully exposed.
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My god is eternal and perfect and benevolent. But none of those laws from the old days relate to me.
Oh aye.
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I tried to help you violet, but you are not paying attention. If you take notice what I said to your ‘new’ friend, but ‘old’ friend wearing a new jacket, ‘notib22 blah blah blah) these commands were not given to you either…………..
‘rightly dividing the word of truth…………………….’ Now go learn what these divisions are, and you will be a bit slower to condemn what you obviously do not understand.
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But why would such foul rules ever relate to anyone? It’s not a necessity based on the cultural differences of a society from ancient history – these commands could never have been nice, never have been what we now understand to be moral. They are commands from a time of sheer ignorance, written by men trying to control a barbaric society. How on earth can you believe they were crafted by any type of benevolent creature?
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So the inventors of the brass trumpet were barbaric? Please.
Or was it the opposite…..when Mordecai and Esther thwarted the barbarians? uh, yep.
When Solomon said ‘cut the baby in half,’ he was barbaric? ah, no.
Or is it simply a matter of misunderstanding and misappropriating to God the absurd? uh, yep.
‘Faith, hope, charity, and the greatest of these is charity.’ Perfectly consistent with everything worthy of God.
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Does that include your worship of assault rifles used to slaughter little children in primary schools?
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CS, the sort of things that puzzled me was like when God sent a plague upon Israel and killed 70,000 because King David took a census? ” 2 Samuel 24:1-2 said that God deliberately incited David to take the census in the first place.
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@ pete
God’s word contains no contradictions, therefore it is a matter of not understanding. It would be far better for you to find the answer on your own……………..unless you want me to swallow your food to satiate your hunger.
If so, you will still be hungry, and the answers will never satisfy. It would not be right for me to drink your water. But know this, God is faultless.
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Well that answer is not much help!
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Maybe peter, but it is a good answer.
Many people curious about seeming discrepancies have been humbled by the layers of truth upon truth.
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(It’s not really a good answer. We call it a ‘cop-out’ where I come from.)
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@vw
Actually, upon further review, it was an excellent answer.
The point was made, and I prevented the usual ‘trampling of scripture.’ 😉
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Well, I’ll have to accept the unbiased verdict of your impartial panel of you on that one. 😀
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And, as usual, avoided defending the indefensible.
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It’s always been the layers of BS upon BS that bothered me —
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Translation, Peter, from my Colorstormese/English Dictionary: He doesn’t know.
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The best evidence we have shows that the early trumpets were invented in Egypt – read a book, CS, that isn’t the Bible, it only hurts for a little while.
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“When Solomon said ‘cut the baby in half,’ he was barbaric?” – I don’t know that Solomon said that, and neither do you – all we really know is that some anonymous, superstitious, scientifically-ignorant Bronze Age man said he did.
“when Mordecai and Esther thwarted the barbarians?? – What barbarians? The Persians were a highly developed society, far more so than any the Jews ever had to offer.
You really don’t know much that isn’t in thee Bible, do you?
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Go read a book about cosmology or evolution, and just maybe “you will be a bit slower to condemn what you obviously do not understand..”
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on a different note, James’s most recent about Christianity NOT being about Blind Faith but evidence, reason and logic… (talk about reading a different book)
I called him on his previously stated belief in the 6day creation and 6000yr age of the earth. being a possible ‘faith alone’ position. you know what he did?
deleted my comments that ‘outed’ his unscientific, illogical and unreasonable beliefs. real honest. yeah?
-mike
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Careful, he’ll ban you, like he banned me. Can’t go challenging the cartoon reality he tries so hard to maintain.
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I’m guessing if my comments don’t get out of moderation that means something
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Mike, sad to say James has form in this regard. Previously he had posted an item ‘proving evolution was false’. Someone responded going through showing the error of James post in a methodical, point by point manner. I was fascinated to read a rebuttal be someone who really knew the science. The next day I went back to the site to re-read the response, lo and behold, it had disappeared.
This sort of editing disappoints me greatly. I would go so far as to suggest it is dishonest.
Ah inconvenient facts! As Violet suggests they are indeed reading a different book. They are reading with the eyes of faith. The faith logic goes as follows:
1) the Bible is true;
2) all evidence must support the Bible;
3) evidence that appears to contradict the Bible must therefore be false.
It is the ultimate bad science and logic, starting at the conclusion rather than the evidence.
There is a fascinating interview, Here with a PHD employed by the Creation Museum, although the person comes across as sincere and knowledgeable, the same logic (above) seems to appliy to their research.
I always see Galileo as a cautionary tale. He was vilified by the Church for putting forward views “contrary” to the Bible. Subsequently, when one could no longer deny the evidence, the Church concluded “those parts of the Bible must be symbolic not literal”. How long I wonder before the YEC folk do the same? It took the Catholic Church over 350 years with Galileo, before they admitted that he was correct that the earth does evolve around the sun Here so I suspect we should not hold our breath.
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Yes. Dishonest. And what’s worse he knows it and feels justified in being so
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James seems to have pretty much frozen me out. My last few comments have just disappeared. He claims to be open to discussion but I don’t think he really is. Willfully blind.
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Sad really.
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“All parts of the Bible are true until it becomes obvious that they aren’t and then a miracle happens and they immediately become things that were never meant to be taken literally to begin with.”
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“you know what he did?
deleted my comments that ‘outed’ his unscientific, illogical and unreasonable beliefs. real honest. yeah?”
Seems to be a popular activity with Christian bloggers. Don’t touch their blinkers!!
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The bible is exactly the sort of book you’d expect to be written by people during that time period – ignorant, brutal and barbaric.
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Not hand written by all that is Good? Interesting.
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The actions of people identifying as Christians, purporting to be acting in accordance with the Bible, have indeed had a huge influence on Western society.
With all due respect, Bull and Shit. Can you see any of the Sermon on the Mount (the pivotal moment in Jesus’s ministry) applied in any western nation?
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Oh it HAS had an impact. Ask any of the millions and millions of dead people who used to call this land home. Yup more blood than Hitler and Stalin combined. That is indeed huge!
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Michelle?
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who?
Sorry nope. Jo
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Awww you missed me..
🙂
Like this post. Lol It asks some interesting questions. I myself would play devils advocate. Are you and IB reading from different books? I’d say nope but you are both picking the parts you like of a book filled with contradictions and opposites.
You can prove or disprove anything using the bible. Slavery is right, no it’s wrong. Killing nonbelievers is right, no love is right, no sin is bad, no we all sin, no.. The list goes on and on.
🙂
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Read the post, Zande. *knuckle wrap*
“But of even more relevance is the fact that if the example of the character Jesus had been a genuine influence, all Christians would be living in communal poverty: not building greed-driven, individualistic, capitalist societies. And if the Old Testament was an influence, we’d be stoning most of the population to death.”
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Oooooh…. Shame on me
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.
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“We must be reading different books”
No, the problem is you haven’t got the eyes to see or the ears to hear. As I’ve said a million times, atheists must constantly try to justify their non belief and the only way to do that is to operate in a state of resistance, resistance to other Christians, resistance to the bible, resistance to the evidence of God all around you. It’s a fascinating phenomenon. That’s why we call coming to Christ a surrender, because what you’re doing is dropping your resistance, yielding to the truth that is all around you.
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I call “coming to Christ” a denial of all that is logical, believable and intelligent. Think about it this way. There is NO proof of your god. No proof he/she/it is more real than any other made up creation.
Your god has left no proof. Feel free to list your “proof” and I will find other religions claiming their faith is proof of their god for the same reasons. You laugh at them, and when they laugh at you it seems Christians become indignant when treated as they themselves treat others.
So much for “Do unto others as you’d want done onto you.” There is a word for that. Hypocrite. Yeah that shoe fits fine.
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we haven’t met, but I like your voice.
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You wouldn’t recognize the truth, I/B, if it bit you on the Ark!
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As I’ve said a million times, atheists must constantly try to justify their non belief and the only way to do that is to operate in a state of resistance, resistance to other Christians, resistance to the bible, resistance to the evidence of God all around you.
Insanity, do you practice this “resistance” with Islam, Zoroastrianism, Judaism, or Jainsim?
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She’ll definitely answer that question. 😉
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Probably right. Pity. It’d be thoroughly refreshing if these apologists ever tried to explain to us heathen how they’re just so damn good at atheism.
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That’s why we call coming to Christ suspension of disbelief, because what you’re doing is dropping your resistance to fantasy, and devouring whatever attempt at justification you can find.
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“That’s why we call coming to Christ suspension of disbelief, because what you’re doing is dropping your resistance to fantasy, and devouring whatever attempt at justification you can find.”
That’s actually fairly accurate, Violet. Coming to Christ requires a suspension of disbelief and to be saved is sometimes called justification.
What you call “fantasy” is actually a vital and important part of who we are as people. Spirituality, fantasy, even our great works of fiction and art speak to who we are as people, to our higher selves. Children innately understand this, they are all about play and fantasy and it shapes who they become as human beings. A child who fears a suspension of disbelief is even sadder than an adult who does. That is a broken child who’s heart has been hardened by the world.
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Oh dear. Thank you for answering honestly though. It’s just a shame you think that could be a good thing.
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“It’s just a shame you think that could be a good thing.”
It puzzles me that you do not understand how important it is for people in general to suspend their disbelief and take frequent leaps of faith in their life. Without a suspension of disbelief in the world there can be no poetry, no music, no art, no falling in love, and no morality or ethics either.
If we are simply random bits of biological goo enjoying a random and meaningless existence, than we also live in a dog eat dog world without structure or purpose, and the only goal in life at that point becomes taking what we can from others. Anything good or golden about the world simply becomes sentimentality, fantasy, serving no useful purpose and therefore unnecessary.
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Oh, Insanitybytes22, great works of fiction and not so great works of fiction come from suspension of disbelief, but they do require us to understand and recognize them as fiction. You are perfectly able to appriciate the value of the works of Leo Tolstoi, or Homeros, in spite of understanding them as fiction, are you not? Let’s not get confused here.
What gets me confused a little is this: “…atheists must constantly try to justify their non belief and the only way to do that is to operate in a state of resistance, resistance to other Christians…” What do you mean by “other Christians”? Was this intentional representation of misunderstanding what atheism is, or a “Freudian slip” of the tongue? Atheists are not Christians. Some of them could be considered cultural Christians, but by far not all. I for example could consider myself as such, but in reality I am removed from that cultural heritage in third generation. I could just as well call myself a cultural farmer, even though I have never farmed any land for my living. Let us be realists, the atheists, who have left Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, or what ever have put that behind them just like the Christian who turned from Islam has put that behind her/him and a Christian who has turned to Buddhism has. Even more so, because atheism is not resistance to any particular religious myth, it is merely a disbelief in any human suggestions about any unnatural gods, that can not actually be proven on any even remotely objective level. And as far as we have come, no even remotely reliable evidence for any such exists. Or can you put forth some? Of course not, and that is why faith is a requirement in every and all religions across the history of man.
As for the Bible, I think it is a great work of fiction. It has captured the minds of countless of generations and still continues to do so. Much like Iliad and Odyssey, that too is set in a real historical frame and sets out some thrilling adventure and some very basic humane questions. I guess the strength of the Bible is in, that it is a collection of stories from a bundle of different ethnicities and cultural heritages from a quite a long span of time. That also explains how it contains totally contradicting moral suggestions and that in turn explains a lot about it’s fabulous fame, as it offers something for everybody. If someone wants to judge their neighbours (and other people), the Bible offers authority to justify a demand for others to do so too, and if someone wants to judge people not to judge their neighbours (and all the rest) the book, once again, comes to rescue as an authority to demand that from other people. But as the topic post suggests, why on earth should we submit to this imaginary authority in either case? Should we not have better reasons to make our moral choises, than that a single book, however good or vile, demanded us to do this or that?
Surely the book alone serves as no evidence for there to be a divine and benevolent entity, that sets our morals? No more with the Bible, than with the Qu’ran? Books are written by men and they are obviously full of issues from men. Sometimes vengefull and frustrated men. Often obviously ignorant men. But then, if we are – despite any evidence historical or psychological – the sole judges on what in these books are really from a divine entity, are we not deliberately fooling ourselves to try to submit such entities to our own subjective views, even if there really be gods behind the curtain? However, if we do not judge these assumed gods according to their own claims as their demands and words to be moral or not, are we not then also prostrating ourselves to tyranny? Does might make right? And if we think, that what we would not pass for our own loved ones, or ultmately on ourselves, is good enough for other people, even separated by centuries, are we not being tribal moralists, rather than moral people?
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When Jesus told Christians to kneel before him, he just wanted a blowjob.
John the Baptist in the 3rd year of our lords death
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“Without a suspension of disbelief in the world there can be no poetry, no music, no art, no falling in love, and no morality or ethics either.”
Are you trying to inspire a post with such an illogical statement? You couldn’t have effective magic tricks or circus sideshow acts without suspension of disbelief – is that what you’re equating Christianity with? Sounds about right. The rest of your list … you need to get out more.
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In all probability, in matters of your understanding of Christianity you are the most ignorant cow I have ever had the misfortune of reading.
You would not understand truth it was hiding in the grass and leapt up and bit you in the backside.
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Ark, please respond to the content and give up on your sorry personal insults. You’re a poor example of a thinking atheist at times, and I know you can do better.
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This woman has been spewing forth her ridiculous nonsensical diatribe for ages.
She has yet to formulate a decent, -moral, well-thought out post or response pertaining to such maters that doesn’t impugn every non-believer or any genuine criticism of the Bible.
What possible comment would you consider worthy of the crap she has espoused since she first posted?
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Well, John and I left neutral replies following on from what she said. John asked a fantastic question which she’ll be too frightened to contemplate. And I rephrased what she wrote using more accurate vocabulary, and she agreed with me. For anyone with a bit more anger, NOT IB22 left a relevant comment that is angry in tone and concludes that Insanity is a hypocrite. Hope that’s helpful. 😉
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*Smile*
Tell me, dear heart, it you lay a beautiful rose across a pile of horse manure do you believe it detracts from the rose or improves the smell of the manure? 😉
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And it is simply the ignorant who attribute a foul smell to that which is only digested grain. Perfectly natural, and the smell of nectar to the appreciating farmer.
It’s all a matter of perspective, and explains perfectly how and why some see only darkness in scripture, where the farmer sees the sweet smell of roses.
Thus it has always been, and thus it always will be…………..unless the light of day is allowed to permeate the stone and cold heart of man………..
Ah yes, the scent of the lily of the valley seen in the dazzling grace of God.
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Ah, yes, it is only the blind and ignorant atheist and other non believer who are unable to see the beauty in murder, genocide, rape, torture, slavery, lies, misogyny, stupidity. The trademarks of your man made-god, Yahweh.
As blessed as you may feel you are in your delusional, god-addled mind, Colorstorm, let me assure you your shit stinks just like everyone else’s.
Except that you have an extra degree of shittiness than most – your penchant for verbalizing diarrhea and it never comes across as anything but.
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Try to stay focused. It was YOU who mentioned COW manure…………..it is light years apart from human……….
But thanks for allowing violets readers to see the genuine article of minds that are antagonistic toward God and His word.
You provide a great service, tkx again.
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What god, and what word?
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I think you have developed selective blindness as well as selective stupidity.
I reffered to horse excrement.
Maybe you would have noticed if you were not so focused on bull shit?
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Nice editing work, but others see your foolish games.
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Nice editing work
So says the Censor-in-Chief! Classic!
Coloursatorm, pray tell, how can Ark “edit” on Violets blog?
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Maybe someone else can come along and affirm the word was cow………….? if not, then an apology would be in order………
Does not change the point though………….
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You’re making a point?
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“Does not change the point though………….” – True, but it wouldn’t show so much if you’d part your hair differently.
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Games, Colorstorm? My dear sir, when it comes to games you are the Master Dipshit of Obfuscation. Your vacuous and flatulent Biblical ramblings merely illustrate why you are a false second King (of the Jungle) and that you worship a false first and would do well to remain sitting on your wall where you may continue to eat your own dung and drink your own piss.
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Hey, I just trademarked ‘Biblebabble,’ so don’t try and steal that one from me —
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Maybe we could use C.S. as an abbreviation for Cow Shit and TM that also?
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That one’s all yours.
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“God and His word” – Ah, CS, I have tol’ you and tol’ you on your own blog, that nowhere in the entire Bible has your god EVER said a word – not ONE. Anonymous, superstitious, scientifically-ignorant Bronze and Iron Age men have SAID that he spoke to them, but not a single verse in the entire book was ever written by your god. Maybe now, that you can’t delete my comments as you do on your blog, you’ll listen, but I doubt it.
You are SO fond of using the phrase, “In the beginning, God,” but due to your ignorance of how the Bible was composed, you seem entirely unaware that those words were written by Aaronid priests in captivity in Babylon, around 550 BCE.
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Ah, more Colorstorm Biblebabble – I’ve SO missed that —
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“…you are the most ignorant cow I have ever had the misfortune of reading.” – I’d say it’s a tossup between I/B and Becky.
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I don’t know…Eliza might take the cake on that one!
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I don’t know Eliza, but NONE of them compares to Kim Balogh. (Shudders)
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I have a comment I wrote on her blog November 19, 2014, that is still sitting in moderation. It has a birthday coming up shortly.
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I stand speechless. 😦
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To refresh your memory on Eliza, Arch, see this link to her blog…you left some fun comments for her on this post. Her blog is really something.
https://holdingforthhisword.wordpress.com/2015/04/17/how-old-part-three/
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Oh, THAT Eliza! I remember I started out being nice to her, then things kinda escalated —
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Well, maybe not quite THAT bad —
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Actually I don’t think Eliza was at all ignorant. She seems like quite an intelligent and thoughtful lady. However in her weighting of evidence, her interpretation of the bible is weighted at 100% and anything that might be contrary is weighted at 0%.
Actually what disturbed me most about Eliza was how judgmental she seemed to be of those Christians who she considered heretics (which I imagine is around 95% of them).
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Uhhh, Eliza was one of those people who says there are NO transitional species. She even went as far as to say archeopteryx (the bird, not the dude) was a hoax.
I guess we’ll have to disagree on this one Peter. 😉
Just for giggles, here’s one of the most hysterically funny videos I’ve ever seen. It’s with a woman who says transitional fossils are hoaxes made out of DRYWALL SPACKLE. God help us all.
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I agree she reached the wrong conclusions. It is just that she is letting her Bible view trump any objective consideration of the evidence. So because she knows archeopteryx is a transitional fossil the only way she can defend her interpretation of the Bible is to conclude it must be a hoax. There is a certain logic to it if your starting premise is that her interpretation of the Bible is the prism through which everything else must be considered.
I suppose what I am saying is that she is not dumb, but rather she has in essence brain washed herself.
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Agreed. All of us former christians allowed ourselves to be brainwashed…myself included.
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Tell them, Vi, how it’s still pulling at you —
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I think IB22 might have put it best (god help me)…I “suspended my disbelief” and bought into the logical fallacies of religion for 41 years as a devout christian. Even a year after losing my faith, my brain struggles with indoctrination and I must constantly refute the religious ideas banging around in my head.
Know what I say to those thoughts that attempt to hijack my common sense and bury my logic?
FUCK OFF!
(Now Vi, I promise I won’t swear anymore on this post. I’d hate to lower the tone of your deeply classy blog.)
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*Smile*
My hero.
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I’ll bet you say that to all the sailors —
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Talk about an airhead!
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If what you say here were true – if there existed some “supernatural” benevolent being who you understand, and we don’t, and he wants us to know about him – then you should be able to easily demonstrate how each and every one of our arguments falls on its face. But they don’t, and you can’t.
I wish you’d ask yourself if sometimes, maybe, we have a point – and honestly examine whether your god really exists – and if so, whether he’s actually good.
Instead, all I see from you is “lalala I can’t hear you – you all just don’t get it!” Putting your head in the sand is not persuasive.
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It has had great influence. The bible has been responsible for more mass murders, genocides and death and any book in history. That *IS* indeed influence.
Laws? Like killing non-Christians, the corrupt kings and church that plunged us into the dark ages? laws that deny basic human rights to non-Christians like land ownership just like they did in the USofA..
Wisdom? Sure like write 32 versions of the bible and still insist it is all one book the same and holy. Like create 10s of thousands of sects of Christians and each claims divinity.
History? Everything historical was written years after the fact. Perhaps it is a source of world history to some extent. So is the Iliad by that definition.
Geography? The Mayans had maps and Almanacs in about 6000 BC. about the same time. let’s get on our knees and worship the Mayan books. Oh wait we can’t Christians destroyed most of them.
as for hope? Well if hell is your hope ok. If being created imperfectly and sinful is your hope. If your only salvation is some guy they nailed to a tree and that is your hope?
Same book? Maybe. But Violet seems to read it with a critical and correct sense of it’s true intent.
Yup Christians have done so much for the world and the bible has brought love, peace and happiness. RIGHT… I got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you, or ocean front property in Arazona, or even a friendly member of ISIS who really doesn’t want to kill you…
PASS!
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You know you’re a Christian when:
You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.
You must be Christian if:
You feel insulted and “dehumanized” when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.
Only in Christianity:
You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.
You know you’re a Christian if:
You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.
Christian logic 101:
You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs — though excluding those in all rival sects – will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most “tolerant” and “loving.”
You must be a Christian when:
You define 0.01% as a “high success rate” when it comes to answered prayers.
My favorite is You must be a Christian if:
You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history – but still call yourself a Christian.
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You should do a post, this is great! Where’s your blog?
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Glad to be a supplier for you vw; a lot of people will be encouraged by the revolving mock fest.
But to your point as to reading different books. When a voice from heaven spoke clear as a bell, some thought it thundered……………but it was truly a voice.
There is a certain trumpet sound rung from scripture that you are confusing with other sounds………
The scriptures are clear enough, as there is this thing called ‘rightly dividing the word of truth.’ I’d tell you about those divisions, ah nevermind, but tkx again for the mention.
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“When a voice from heaven spoke clear as a bell, some thought it thundered……………but it was truly a voice.” – Which one of the Bible’s anonymous, superstitious, scientifically-ignorant Bronze and Iron Age men wrote that? Oh wait, he was anonymous, so you have no idea —
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Thanks for popping over to respond to the post ColorStorm. If you feel up to it, you could attempt to refute what I’ve written point by point? Just like I did for your fact-void sweeping statement. Only if you think you’d have something relevant to say though. 🙂
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Oh, Pee Ess.
Nice photo of the Hover Fly.
Taken in the UK?
If so it looks like Eupeodes Corollae.
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Nice find! Certainly looks like it, more so than anything in my native book.
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We have then here at our spot and they are fascinating to watch. I have a few photographs.
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One of the hallmarks of Christians is their apparent aversion to reading the bible unaided or un-guided.
It would not be much of a stretch to surmise that the majority of the several billion individuals who claim to be Christian have ever taken the time to read the entire bible, rather relying on, childhood indoctrination, pulpit sermons, or carefully led bible study.
Acceptance is the key then afterwards all contradictory evidence is molded around presuppositional beliefs, instilled over a foundation of guilt and fear.
Any truly honest reading of the bible should leave the reader repulsed, and the sheer volume of heinous barbarism that, with one or two notable exceptions is a feature almost throughout.
.
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This is great!
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Interesting quotes but they make the same mistakes as Christians. Rejecting only Christianity isn’t atheism.
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I didn’t see Christianity mentioned, did you?
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Yeah, I know the history of the bible – a death sentence was once imposed if one had the temerity to read it in English!
Love that god, right?
I was directing my comment at the majority of the indoctrinated or willfully ignorant latter day faithful.
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And I was directing mine at VW’s comment:
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Well Ark, careful with saying Christians read the Good Book unaided. You know catholics were forbidden from reading scripture, and for ages we relied on the pope and the clergy for insight. That didn’t work out so well either. 😉
I find it interesting any christian can read the bible and not be repulsed by it. Even when I was in the throes of my most devout fervor, parts of the bible were so shocking I developed a horrible case of cognitive dissonance that nearly undid me. The passover story being the one that nearly made me throw up, with the crucifixion story not far behind. *gag*
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Ah yes, and once again I can’t figure out Violetwisp’s reply buttons, so am replying to the wrong comment. Violet dear, have you not sorted out your buttons yet? I know how you love to be hounded about that.
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Just remember to hit the reply below the comment. The separation line is confusing.
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What can anyone say – it’s WordPress!
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Sorry, it comes with the theme. I’m sure it spices up conversations anyway. 🙂
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Vi, click the button beneath the comment you’re replying to —
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Oops I screwed up with the comment too! Spice up the comments my
arsearmYeah, I know the history of the bible – a death sentence was once imposed if one had the temerity to read it in English! Lovely.
Love that god, right?
I was directing my comment at the majority of the indoctrinated or willfully ignorant latter day faithful.
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I see I read your comment totally wrong Ark, and you were saying christians won’t read the bible unaided. Sorry…my excuse is sleep deprivation and bad glasses.
Wasn’t it Luther who said christians have enough smarts to interpret the bible themselves? Just goes to show all christians have their brains twisted up in knots. Looking back, I wish I’d been able to read a non-religious person’s view of the bible…but then the excuse was that because they didn’t have the Holy Spook, there was no way for them to understand what they’ve read. Religion is a vortex that sucks all the logic from the world and stores it up it’s ass (Violetwisp, do recall you gave me free reign to swear on your blog some time ago…I shall try not to abuse this privilege *too much*). 😉
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“Religion is a vortex that sucks all the logic from the world and stores it up it’s ass”
Beautiful! I think you might be ColorStorm’s shadow self. All of the style, but actual real meaning!
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Thanks Vi…that’s the second best compliment I’ve ever received on WP! The first was given by Eliza herself, who said she’d pray to God and He *forbid* her from having further contact with me.
My ego is exploding from such high praises! 😀
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A friend of mine used to be a pastor and then slowly started losing his faith over the last decade. At the urging of another pastor, he recently agreed to start reading the Bible again to see if he could ‘rekindle his faith.’ After about a month, he concluded, “This book is absolutely horrible! How is it that I used to think it was so divinely inspiring?” He had taken his God-glasses off, and suddenly the stories seemed meaningless at best–horrifying at worst.
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I’d like to have the space to read it cover to cover, there must be lots of bits I’ve missed.
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It’s quite an undertaking. If there weren’t a religion attached to it, there’s no way it would be as popular as it is. It has an erratic plot, no continuity, and a complete lack of character development. Christians say they can still find new things in there even after reading it for years, but that’s because it’s so easy to go comatose during all the ‘begats.’
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I call those the “begatitudes.”
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@Arch
Gospel of the Miscreants.
Chapter Two
1.Oh, thou foulest of mo
uths. Hast Satan twisteth thy tongue like the writhing serpent?2 Dost thou not knoweth that the word of the Mighty begets only fear and trembling?
3.And once begatten can never be unbegotted. Lo, hast thy vissicitudes brought forth a swelling of thy belly?
4. Nay, thy whining hast left the Mighty bereft of platitudes. Now gird thy
lionsloins and begone.LikeLike
Wha choo talkin’ ’bout, Willis –?
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Maybe not different books but differing comprehension abilities
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Or a different understanding of basic words. 😀
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Reading his comments, one doubts whether he has read any book other than the bible.
How can a person be so proudly dumb
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Another challenge for Christians!
Please interpret this verse:
The LORD was with the men of Judah. They took possession of the hill country, but they were unable to drive the people from the plains, because they had chariots fitted with iron. (Judges 1:19)
Were Iron Chariots too powerful for God?
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I mentioned quite some time ago, Peter, that Iron was Yahweh’s Kryptonite, using the same verse.
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So did Yahweh wear his underpants over his trousers too or did he have a penchant for wearing them on his head?
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Considering he’s invisible, I doubt he saw a need for them in either place. Otherwise, if people saw a pair of underpants floating down the street, they’d say, “Here comes god!,” now where’s the stealth value in that?
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Hello VW – I’m loving your blog. Good questions. Your readers and commenters are a rather intimidating bunch though…you mediate very nicely 🙂 I fear I really don’t quite have the smarts to keep up with you all and I’m just a teeny bit afraid to comment but, here goes.
Are we reading the same book? Two thoughts –
1. The question of how people interpret the offensive elements of the bible. Obviously, as you have already pointed out in previous posts, christians talk about God being supreme, loving and also perfect and just – as a general answer/justification for the bad/offensive bits of the bible. Now, to take things back a step further – the offensive bits that get pointed out on this blog seem to fall into roughly two categories – the actual acts of violence (mostly in, but limited to, Joshua) and the laws that are spelt out in Exodus and Leviticus (and also other general bits and pieces scattered though out that seem misogynistic etc). Different issues are presented in the violence recorded in Joshua compared with the actual laws given to the Israelite nation for how they should live in the promised land. And because there are very different issues raised these two types of offensive elements need separate discussion. How you interpret the good the bad and the ugly in the ‘good book’ obviously influences one’s reaction to it, therefore, it isn’t surprising that people get very, very different things from it. We all read about the same reported events, e.g. the violence in Joshua , but understand it to mean different things. You see, perhaps, ethnic cleansing or a god who is irrationally violent or vindictive. But others, evidently do not. Why is that so? Because, I think there are some other important factors to take into account before making conclusion on the nature of this violence;
-firstly things like God’s feelings toward murder: “I take no pleasure in the death of anyone” Ezekiel 18:32.
-secondly, that God is not sanctioning killing based on ethnicity, see for instance Joshua 5:13-15 when Joshua asks a divine messenger sent to him – “Are you for us or for our enemies?” “Neither, ” he replied. (Joshua 5:13-14).
-that Cannan was not a particularly nice nation – it was reportedly full of greed, terrible oppression, ritual prostitution and child sacrifice (to the god Molech). NB of course one can dismiss the biblical evaluation of Cannan but then perhaps the war against Cannan never happened either…
but the Israelites were not considered to be righteous in God;s eyes either “Understand, then, that it is not because of your righteousness that the Lord your God is giving you this good land to possess, for you are a stiff-necked (meaning: stubbornly disobedient) people” Deut 9:6 God is not portrayed as taking sides, but using Israel as an unworthy tool to exact the reported righteous judgement of God on evil NB – humans also permit killing other nations/going to war from time to time as an act of righteous judgement against truly evil regimes.
-and finally, God is not portrayed as routinely condemning every wicked nation on earth, just this once with the Cannanites (Why? Perhaps as a sign of the reality of his judgement? Why not with other wicked nations – e.g. why does;t God step in and act when people like Pol Pot go on killing sprees?…maybe because if God exacted righteous punishment for all the evil nations commit, there would be many nations left…?)
2. archaeopteryx1 pointed out something in the comments a few posts ago that I think is very relevant to your question VW – the fact of confirmation bias.
“Confirmation bias is a phenomenon wherein decision makers have been shown to actively seek out and assign more weight to evidence that confirms their hypothesis, and ignore or underweigh evidence that could disconfirm their hypothesis.
As such, it can be thought of as a form of selection bias in collecting evidence.” Sciencedaily.com
We all do it and I think that in addition to completely different interpretations we can arrive at when picking through the bible, we also have to admit we are usually unconsciously falling prey to confirmation bias from time to time – christians more easily find evidence for their positive view, atheists for their negative. And, lets face it, the bible is ultimately presenting the idea that there is a righteous (and loving) God who is in control – which is not an idea everyone likes
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“And, lets face it, the bible is ultimately presenting the idea that there is a righteous (and loving) God who is in control….”
Yes, it is Serenity, and the evidence for his existence can be found right here:
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I’d say there is a little more evidence that suggests that perhaps there may be a God than that … 😉 No definitive proof – I can agree with that.
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I’ve yet to see it.
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Fair enough.
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“Your readers and commenters are a rather intimidating bunch though…” – Actually, Serenity, you’re the nicest Christian to come on VW’s board since “AintNoShrinkingViolet,” who later said I terrified her, but she stuck it out and I have it on good authority that she is glad she did, as I’m sure are the rest of us. But you’re no Colorstorm (Thank Grod!), and don’t need to worry about being treated like
wesome of us would, him.LikeLiked by 1 person
Well, thanks for the compliment and the kind reassurances – I’ll take them with a grain of salt though, if you don’t mind! Based on the longevity of other brave souls, I’m sure it’ll only be a matter of time before incur the wrath of VW’s readers 😉
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RE, “(Thank Grodd!)“:
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? Don’t get it, sorry…!
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Being an atheist, I have no desire to say, “Thank god,” there being, as Will Rogers once said about the giraffe, “no sech animal,” so I chose a homonym instead – “Grodd” – who just happens to be a comic book character – in other words, just as real. You know a joke is not very good, when you have to explain it – mea culpa —
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Here’s a list of the killings in the Bible, Serenity – just scroll down a paragraph or two for the complete list. You will see that not all of them are your god’s, but at the same time, not all are in Joshua.
http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2010/04/drunk-with-blood-gods-killings-in-bible.html#sthash.HPIVZas7.dpufer
There have been those, here and on other blogs, who have said that god made them, he had a right to kill anyone he pleases – even if that were true, what does it say about him? My ex-wife and I gave our children life, but you don’t have to be religious to know that that doesn’t give us the right to kill them, no matter how tempted we might at times have been.
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I know that the killings not limited to Joshua (I think I said, largely found in Joshua, or something like that). I just thought it might be helpful to take a closer look at Joshua as there is a fair concentration of killing in Joshua and it does at least go some way to ‘set the scene’ for what happens.
Does God have a ‘right’ to kill anyone he pleases? Well, maybe…as I suggested earlier, even mere mortals can agree, on occasion, that the killing of other humans, although ultimately extremely undesirable, is justified or necessary to put a stop to evil or destruction of some kind (I’m sure you can think of many examples of this).
I hear you about children 🙂 Delightful though they may be, they do push the limits of one’s sanity from time to time.
What does that say about his character, that he sanctions killings sometimes? Well, I think as I friend to explain before that there are reasons given, its just whether we, agree with them or not. You have obviously decided that you do not like the god that you see portrayed. I for one do not like at all the violence recorded in the bible, I wish it wasn’t there in some respects. It certainly *seems* to make God look very,very not nice. However, as others I’m sure have tried to say, we do seem to be taking about/seeing different God’s ported here – and I tentatively suggest, that the God I’m seeing is a little bigger,more complex perhaps, that the God you see in the christian’s bible. To quote a book that many of you strongly dislike, I am bracing myself for a collective *groan* – “…who said anything about safe?’Course he isn’t safe. But he is good”.
Also, I, like you I’m sure, are taken about by the pure evil that goes on in all our nations (historically and today). And I am angered by it. I want something to be done. And although its nice to think of humans evolving slowly into nicer and nicer beings because horrible religion is being eradicated, people are becoming more educated etc I personally don’t see much evidence – it seems like a revolving door of sameness to me – things improve in one arena then they dissolve in another. Even if we are on the whole evolving to be nicer – where’s the justice for those who suffered cruelly while mankind was busy being bad..?
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“Even if we are on the whole evolving to be nicer – where’s the justice for those who suffered cruelly while mankind was busy being bad..?”
I think you may be looking for some kind of cosmic scale, Serenity, where everything balances out – it doesn’t exist. From 600 to 1600, when the tide simply became too strong to hold back, the only Christian church there was, the Catholic one, forbade the publication of the Bible in any language but Latin – upon penalty of death.
Only about 5% of the European population could read at the time, and of that elite group, only 3% of those could read Latin. If you wanted to know anything about the Bible, you had to hear it from a priest.
Thousands were killed during this time – one man was burned at the stake for the heinous crime to translating the Lord’s Prayer into English for his children – we’re not talking about apostasy here, these are full-blown Christians, simply wanting to be able to examine the bible for themselves, yet over those thousand years, the Church executed thousands. Again, we’re not talking about a war, where one might expect atrocities to take place in the heat of battle, these are the theological descendants of your Jesus – where is the justice for them, when it is in fact the religious authorities who are committing the atrocities?
The answer is, that there is none. We have anthropomorphized the Universe, when it really doesn’t give a damn. Is that depressing? It can be, unless we lower our expectations to the level of reality, and realize that in a cold and unfeeling universe, we hairless apes were fortunate enough to live for a short time and to an extent, choose which experiences we will have during that lifespan.
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Even that most prominent reformer, John Calvin, supported the burning at the stake of Michael Servetus for heresy. What was the crime of Servetus? He questioned whether the childhood baptism and the Trinity were actually Biblical doctrines.
What we see with Luther and Calvin is that they were people of their time. We also see this with the Apostle Paul. We see this in the Old Testament stories. What we see is that morality changes as society advances. This suggests morality is primarily culturally based not an absolute delivered by God.
If you look on the news wires you will see a story of two Indian women who have been handed a sentence to be raped by all the men in their village. Their crime, was that their brother eloped with a women of the wrong caste. To us that seems shocking, and we wonder how the village council in India can’t see it is terrible. But we see culture drives the morality.
One of the problems with Islam is that it is based on 7th century Arabian culture which has a morality that most in the modern world find hard to accept.
So a lot of the Old Testament morality is based on that of the first and second millennium BC in the middle East. Indeed much of the Jewish law is based on the Code of Hammurabi which was dated back to 1754 BC in Babylon.
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Hammurabi/Hammurapi was the last great Amurrite king, Peter, and I’m sure you’ve heard me hold forth (as I am on rare occasions wont to do) on the relationship of the Amurrite god – Amurru – and the Jewish god, Yahweh.
But for Serenity’s sake, if you were to – oh I don’t know – say, “Oh please Arch, I never tire of hearing that story, it’s positively riveting!” – I might be induced to repeat it —
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(Shut up, Ark – I’m workin’ here – go find another corner for your popsicle stand!)
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Oh please Arch, I never tire of hearing that story, it’s positively riveting!
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Well, Peter, since you insist —
Genesis tells us that Abraham came from “Ur of the Chaldees” [Gen 11:28 & :31], and traveled to and settled in, Haran, on the Turkish/Syrian border – but if he ever existed, and there is no evidence that he did, I have biblical sources that place his time period as being anywhere from 1850 to 2350 BCE. The Chaldeans were a tribe that came from Southern Persia (modern Iran) and occupied a part of Mesopotamia, the area around the major metropolitan city of Ur, an historical city which actually did exist. However they didn’t do that until the 700’s BCE, making it impossible for Abe to come from “Ur of the Chaldees.”
However, biblical scholars inform us that that portion of Genesis was written by a group of Aaronid priests in captivity in Babylon, between 597-539 BCE. These men would have been quite familiar with the story of the Chaldeans, but would have had no way of knowing that they hadn’t occupied the area in Abram’s time.
“Ur,” however, is a Sumerian word, meaning simply, “City.” Possibly a brief history of Mesopotamia will make things clearer – the Sumerians controlled the 700-mile long Mesopotamian valley for 4,000 years, ruling it as a socialistic theocracy – everybody worked, and everyone worshiped the same pantheon of gods. Then a Semitic, nomadic group, the Akkadians, gradually filtered into and settled the more sparsely-populated Northern part of the valley, where they were tolerated during their transition from nomadic life to an agrarian community, as they were few in number. Gradually, however, as their numbers grew and they achieved greater economic stability, they eventually conquered all of Mesopotamia, which they ruled for 500 years. Over time, they merged their religious pantheon with that of the Sumerians.
It was the Akkadians, under the leadership of their greatest king, Sargon I, that a trade route was opened between Mesopotamia and the Levant, as Sargon and his troops cleared a swath all the way to the Mediterranean, then down along the coast nearly to Egypt, leaving forts along the way to keep the peace and to maintain that the corridor remained open for trade.
Interesting story about Sargon – it seems his mother was a temple prostitute, and as caring for a baby occupied her lap for which she had other uses, she fashioned a little boat of reeds, covered it in bitumin, placed him in it, and floated him down the Euphrates, where he was ultimately rescued by a gardener to the king. Seems like I’ve heard that story before —
Then, another nomadic group, the Amurrites – so called because they worshiped only one god, “Amurru,” gradually filtered into Northern Mesopotamia, just as the now-ruling Akkadians had done more than 500 years earlier. They made their capitol at Aleppo, Syria (which still exists today), and just as the Akkadians had done, gradually conquered all of the Valley, which they held for yet another 500 years. This time period would have been the time of Abram/Abraham.
As mentioned, it’s 700 miles from Ur to Haran – BUT – only 20 miles east from Haran to a little hamlet called, “Ur-fa,” which also still exists today, is also located on the Turkish/Syrian border, and annually celebrates itself as “the birthplace of Abraham.”
Further, throughout Genesis, whenever Abe’s nephew, Laban, is mentioned, it is ALWAYS as, “Laban the Syrian.” If Laban were Syrian, what would that make his Uncle Abe?
Why is the nationality of either of them important? Because if they were in fact Syrian, knowing that the Amurrites made Syria their headquarters, it increases the likelihood that Abraham, et al, were Amurrite. This is important because that means that they likely worshiped the god, Amurru. You’ll never guess what Amurru’s other name was – “El Shaddai.”
Let’s take a quick look at Exodus, for those with ADD (and you know who you are) – 3:6 and 6:3 (quite coincidentally) are the two places where the Bible’s god finally reveals that his name is Yahweh. Interestingly, he only does this after Moses meets and marries a daughter of Jethro, the Midianite high priest of an obscure desert storm god, YHWH. Previously, the Bible’s god had fiercely guarded his name, refusing to give it up even when 90-year old Jacob beat him at wrestling, but in Exodus, he suddenly becomes quite chatty.
First (Gen 3:6), he makes sure Moses knows who he is: “…I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” Then comes the clincher (6:3): “And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob by the name of El Shaddai, but by my name JEHOVAH [YAHWEH – ed.] was I not known to them.”
Now in Ex 6:3, your KJV is going to say, “God Almighty,” rather than “El Shaddai” – note also that it uses “Jehovah,” which we now know was a mistranslation of “YHWH.” In the Torah, in the original Hebrew, the name is “El Shaddai” – we can only speculate as to why translators would feel the need to change it.
I believe it’s reasonable to consider that the Hebrews, upon absorbing Midianite culture, combined the qualities of their god, Amurru, with those of the god of the Midianites, just as the Akkadians absorbed the gods of the Sumerians and the Romans, the gods of the Greeks.
Thanks for asking, Peter.
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(If I ever need a shill again, I know who to come to —)
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Thanks Arch.
As an aside in the movie Scorpion King as a recall they had the good guy being an Akkadian.
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Oh, and btw, Hammurabi was one of the great Amurrite kings, and quite likely the model for the later literary character, Moses.
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Wow, very interesting arch. thanks for sharing for my benefit. You very well could be right about all that. Hard to say, it all happened such a long time ago 🙂
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Thankyou arch for explaining your position on justice – a universe that doesn’t give a damn. I’m happy for you if lowering your expectation of reality that we should consider ourselves fortunate for the experiences we do have in a cold and unfeeling universe. I wonder how someone born into unfortunate circumstances of some kind, would feel about this reasoning – any thoughts? I freely admit that I long for a cosmic scale, not where everything balances out, but where wrongs are righted. I emphatically do not wish to lower my expectations of reality (I am, unfortunately perhaps, an idealist). When I look at the world around me I see both extreme good and extreme atrocity – I feel very strongly that that means something (and its not just random genetics at play – if it was, again, I feel the injustice of that, that some suffer unfairly and others prosper unfairly, with no rhyme or reason).
Atrocities, committed by christians or otherwise – are atrocities and I am filled with horror. I cannot except that there is no option for justice in a cold and unfeeling universe, say for example, for those millions of refugees who are currently fleeing Syria and dying in the process. For anyone who has suffered unjustly, at the hands of religious mean and women or secular, or even by nature gone wild (i.e. any natural disaster) – the idealist in me wants there to be some kind of justice – I see a very couple and nuanced, yet at the same time very simple, hope for justice in places like here:
“Do not take advantage of the widow or the fatherless. If you do and they cry out to me, I will certainly hear there cry” Exodus 22:22
“He defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and loves the foreigner residing among you..” Deut 10:18
“When you have finished setting aside a tenth of all your produce in the third year, the year of the tithe, you shall give it to the Levite, the foreigner, the fatherless and the widow, so that they may eat in your towns and be satisfied.” Deut 26:12
“But you, God, see the trouble of the afflicted; you consider their grief and take it in hand.” Psalm 10:14
“‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.” Revelation 21:4
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Sorry, I clicked send before I properly edited that response. I meant to say, I’m happy for you if your lowered expectation of reality makes sense to you and makes you happy 🙂 That view of the universe could never make me happy in the face of the suffering I see around me.
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I didn’t say it made me happy, I simply said it was more realistic than believing that there is something, somewhere, who sees all and has the power to make things right and balance the see-saw. I would think you would rather believe as I do, instead of believing that there is an all-knowing, all-powerful god who sits by, watching all of the misery happening, and does nothing.
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‘happy’ Bad choice of word sorry. Glad you think it’s more realistic then.
I don’t for an instant think that an all-knowing all-powerful God sits by and does nothing. Why would anyone believe in a God like that?
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Good question.
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“I freely admit that I long for a cosmic scale, not where everything balances out, but where wrongs are righted.” – As do I, but if it’s to be, it’s up to us. I’ve spent a bit of my life doing my share, but I’m only one.
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I did wonder how God would wipe away every tear of people in heaven if there were people they had known and loved who were suffering eternal torment in Hell. This used to concern me as a Christian and I did conclude there was a case from the Biblical text to suggest Hell was destruction not eternal torture.
Zach Van Houten, a very thoughtful person, had posted a thought provoking list of questions Here for those who believe in eternal torment.
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Not sure if you were aware of this, Peter, but Zach is no longer a Christian. I’m subbed to his newer blog:
“My name is Zach Van Houten and I am a secular Humanist with progressive values who enjoys good discussions about complex issues. I was a passionate conservative Christian from childhood until I found intellectual freedom in November of 2014.”
https://thefreethinkinghuman.wordpress.com/
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Thanks Victoria, yes I am aware of Zach’s journey. When he wrote the post in question he was still a Christian. Zach is someone for whom I have the greatest respect. He was someone who as a Christian thought deeply about issues of faith and in particular the implications of Christian dogma. As I recall it was his study of 2 Peter and its use of the apocryphal book of Enoch that was the final straw.
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Very interesting analysis in Zach’s post. He’s obviously changed his mind about it all now though, as neurones points out.
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He hasn’t changed his mind on what the Bible teaches on Hell. It is just that he no longer believes the Bible is a divine book.
So much of the Evangelical church combines the Calvinistic teaching of Election with the idea of an eternal Hell. Zach examined both of these teachings before he deconverted. He like others with a loving heart felt these portrayed God as a monster. The reason being that Election says it is God who chooses which people will be saved and then those who are not chosen are tortured for all eternity. The only real defense that Calvinists can offer is that everyone deserves eternal torture and that through God’s grace some are spared. But on this basis if God chooses people before the foundation of the earth then for those who are not chosen life is not a gift, but the greatest curse.
After examining both of these doctrines Zach concluded they were not the best interpretation of the Bible.
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Hi serenity, speaking of justice, as an Australian you would probably be familiar with the late Fred Hollows. Christian doctrine would say that all of his work helping restore sight to the blind in the worlds poorest countries was vile, (Psalm 14:1) because he was not a Christian. As a result he will be tortured for all eternity in Hell. Is that just?
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Fred Hollows, amazing servant hearted man. If only there were many, many more like him. If we are going to condemn him to eternal separation from the God who made him, based on Psalm 14:1, we had better also pay attention to Psalm 14:2 –
” The LORD looks down from heaven on all mankind
to see if there are any who understand,
any who seek God.
All have turned away, all have turned corrupt;
there is no one who does good,
not even one”
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If only there were more like him
But that is my point, Christian doctrine suggests he will face eternal separation from God, and (depending upon one’s interpretation) could also face eternal conscious torture). If you believe this then surely the response should be to want no-one else like him, because no matter how good his acts were in the eyes of humanity it will avail him naught when he faces his eternal judge.
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And yet adolph Hitler will go to heaven. He was christian, he received last rights and asked forgiveness. He knew and accepted Jesus Christ so he will go to heaven. Pass.
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Really?
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@myisleofserenity
This is Yahweh we are talking about, right? The egotistical, self-centered, megalomaniacal genocidal son-of-a-bitch that wiped out the entire human population save one soon to be incestuous family?
Or did you have a different god in mind?
For what it’s worth; the Dante-like version of Hell is a Christian construct and does not feature at all, anywhere in any shape or form in the Old Testament where said son-of a bitch genocidal maniac first turns up, after the Israelites had kicked out all the other Canaanite gods and forced said son-of-a-bitch,Yahweh to ”ditch” his missus, Asherah.
Actually they just edited her out but it adds more drama to the story, don’t you think so?
Oh … you did know all this I take it? You aren’t one of those Christians who simply swallows everything they are told, surely?
Not in this day and age, for goodness’ sake?
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I don’t have time to go into the nitty gritty of what I personally think about eternal separation/hell/eternal torture – but it’s obviously not my call – God is loving, and just, and merciful – how would we know specifically who is ‘going to hell’? In my reading we know that God sees the hearts of each person (not their actions, for action do not always belie the heart) and who on earth can truly know what’s in the heart of another.
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“God is loving, and just, and merciful –” – I suggest that YOU are loving, and just, and merciful, and that you are projecting those qualities onto what you would like your god to be.
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I really find an eternal Hell of torture hard to reconcile with love. I don’t see how it can be just, let alone merciful or loving, to torture someone for eternity no matter what they have done.
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Hi Serenity, please don’t feel intimidated we appreciate your contribution. I am absolutely confident that my friend archaeopteryx1 (the transitional fossil) would welcome your continued interaction.
The reality is that the issue of ‘violence’ in the Old Testament has challenged Christians throughout the ages. In times past is has been seen as allegorical, that was the approach proposed by Ambrose of Milan, who was so influential in converting Augustine, who likewise struggled with this issue.
I know many modern day Christians who privately struggle to understand the issue. Whilst apologists point to the sin of the Canaanites, most people find that not entirely persuasive. Especially when we start to extend the slaughter to the Midianites and the Amelikites. In the case of the Amelikites they were wiped out because of what their forefathers had done half a millennium earlier.
In my view it is the slaughter in Numbers 31 that is most shocking. I observed that what happened there is worse than the worst atrocity of ISIS.
Some (not me) argue that all life is in God’s hands and all have to die, so is dying a bit earlier that bad? In reality the real issue, the elephant in the room, is not that God commands people to be killed in this life, but rather what happens afterwards. If these people are to be tortured for all eternity in Hell then that makes a quick death on earth trivial by comparison.
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You’re right, Peter – I find Serenity quite refreshing, she has no cause to fear intimidation by me – ask around, I’m the good one.
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Will you get over yourself already!
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(See, that’s what a ‘good one’ would do –)
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For your edification, Serenity, there was a girl – in fact, the one I mistook you for, “chialphagirl” – who had a Christian blog. Arkenaten (Ark) and I both commented there. By this time, “RoughSeasInTheMed” had already dubbed us, “the evil A twins.” Ark was – how shall I put it? – less than congenial on Chialphagirl’s blog, and she announced that she intended, from that point on, restricting her blog to Christians only. She apologized to me, saying that she was sorry that that had to include me, since I was “the good one.” I’ve been lording it over him ever since.
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@Arch
Where’s my Barf Bag?
Good one? Sheesh. How do I break this to you? She took pity on you. It’s part of the ”Esmerelda” make-up.
Women really want the bad boy. Don’t you know this? Ask your daughters!
😉
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Oh, but I AM a bad boy, but the interesting kind – you know, the kind that doesn’t get banned.
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@Arch.
In your case; bad as in going-off and in need of a deodorant or bad as in likes being tied up and whipped?
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Jealous?
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Besides, you’re only saying that because I published a picture of you and your wife!
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Jealous?
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No, you’re not my type.
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Phew…we can both breath a sigh of relief.
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I was hoping someone would say that
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Hi myisleofserenity. Thanks for sharing your perspective. Keep in mind that most of us nonbelievers in the Biblical god were devout Christians at one time, who actually spent years studying the Bible ourselves. This is a very complex subject, and I’m only going to touch on a few factors.
Misapplied cognitive functions: Religion is a by-product of otherwise normal processes in the brain. When you nurture a relationship (as is commanded in the Bible) with an Iron/Bronze age deity, and put him on the level of a loving parent (Father), or a bridegroom (as Jesus is considered) neurological studies show that neurochemicals associated with attachment are released (oxytocin, vasopression & dopamine), which in turn cause neural circuitry associated with critical social assessment and negative emotions to deactivate. This is where religion hijacks what has evolved cognitively to ensure the survival of our species.
Then there’s another issue. Death Anxiety — fear of death. The Bible god threatens hell in the NT if people don’t obey and get “saved”. Our species, like most, have a survival instinct. Again, this is where religion becomes a by-product of otherwise normal biological processes.
Taken this into consideration, it’s understandable why many Christians don’t recognize the unethical behavior and attitude of the biblical god they worship. I agree that we all can be impacted by confirmation bias. However, I will reiterate, most of us are ex-Christians who once had an attachment to this Biblical (cultural) deity.
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You should listen to this lady, Serenity, when it comes to the neurological effects and chemical changes in the brain, of religion, or even early-age indoctrination, you can research anything she tells you and you’ll find she is spot on.
Except when it comes to singing the praises of WordPress, then she’s full of it – but hey, nobody’s perfect.
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ok, love to find out more about neurological effects etc…but it goes both ways – can I throw this out there? What early-age experiences did you guys experience that shaped your world views? I know for many of you it seems that it was christian indoctrination that helped put you off the idea of God – but the argument for neurological effects seems to be able to be stretched in both directions?
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While you continue to adopt a presuppositional perspective and use the term ‘God’ as a pronoun you will never fully be able to examine this in an unbiased fashion.
This is why Christian Apologetics is now a full-time profession and there are many such people entering the scene; to try to allay fears that are bubbling under the surface of an ever growing number of Christians, and why such doctrine as Divine Command Theory is part of the arsenal of numerous Apologists. People like William Lane Craig. Some they manage to reign back in. Many they do not.
If you wish to genuinely explore the veracity of what Victoria is saying , try this. Simply substitute Yahweh with Quetzalcoatl ( the Aztec god) and see if you have any emotional attachment?
I am guessing none at all! 🙂 Well, I sincerely hope not. Lol.
Now, go through the entire exercise of indoctrination and altered brain chemistry etc and at every point where your god enters the frame, insert Quetzalcoatl.
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Quetzalcoatl been very, very good to me —
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Ah ms notes,
Don’t forget to speak openly how you ‘believe’ Paul the apostle suffered from a ‘lobe mental problem,’ and how you try to persuade people that the greatest spiritual mind ever, was born of delusions, and how any body who believes what Paul taught, is equally mentally deficient.
Do you think you may have an attempt at a new convert, to steal a persons faith and leave them hopeless while putting a feather in the cap of your own unbelief….to justify your grievance with God?
And do tell how your weak argument was dismissed completely by a post of yours truly.
(vw, a post coming to address your argument)
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“to justify your grievance with God?”
You mean your cultural god, Yahweh? You know, there are thousands of gods. I have no grievances with your god because I don’t believe it ever existed except in myth.
From the Journal of Neurology, Neurosurgery, and Psychiatry:
“Evidence is offered to suggest a neurological origin for Paul’s ecstatic visions. Paul’s physical state at the time of his conversion is discussed and related to these ecstatic experiences. It is postulated that both were manifestations of temporal lobe epilepsy.”
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1032067/
3.3. Neuronal Dysfunction
There is much evidence in history that the more profound religious insights occur alongside mental dysfunction. The psychologist William James, in his survey of religious experience, comments that there are a massive proportion of prominent religious people in history that have shown signs of now-recognized long-term neurological complaints.
The average believer does not suffer from such severe cataclysms, however, and merely believes in the irrational results of others’ experiences that have become codified as part of a religion. In normal believers, it may be a long-term background dysfunction of the prefrontal cortex that leads to illogical beliefs:
http://www.humanreligions.info/causes.html
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Interesting notes, how you cling to doctors of supposed knowledge, who somehow you think have the drop on Peter, James, and John.
Oh wait, I remember, they were unlearned and ignorant fishermen…………
Yep, my kind of guys. Although to be fair, I know a share of PhD’s who are equally unlearned and ignorant who cast their lot with Paul the apostle………..
have a nice day though regardless.
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“Peter, James, and John. Oh wait, I remember, they were unlearned and ignorant fishermen…………” – Yes, they were, and your educated buddy, Paul, realizing their ignorance, snatched Christianity right out from under them.
Now run back and duck into your hidey-hole, CS, before the boogyman gets you!
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I suppose I should thank you archx1; you do provide a great service for any in the bleachers who are too timid to engage. Your incessant assaults on people of faith are proven in the very book you try to dismiss.
‘railers, mockers, ungodly speeches, profane babblings………….,’ while Peter wrote of ‘like precious faith.’ John called it ‘the blessed hope.’ James spoke of the ‘word of truth.’
Indeed I agree with them, as do many. After all, they were eyewitness of His majesty……..
And you also have a great day.
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“Indeed I agree with them, as do many. After all, they were eyewitness of His majesty……..
Colorstorm,
“Between April 1968 and May 1971 hundreds of thousands of people reported seeing apparitions of the Virgin Mary over a Coptic Orthodox church in Zeitoun, near Cairo, Egypt. When photographed, these phenomena appeared as irregular blobs of light. More detailed descriptions of the phenomena, such as visions, often occurred as ‘flashes’; their details usually reflected the religious background of the experiment. Analysis revealed that ‘luminous phenomena in Zeitoun increased during the month of or the month before an increase in regional seismic activity’”
http://www.amsciepub.com/doi/abs/10.2466/pms.1989.68.1.123
Mathew 28: 2,3 “There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the lord came down from heaven…
… His appearance was like lightening and his clothes were as white as snow.
Mass hysteria coupled with earthquake lights and of course, a religious background will cause people to believe they are seeing all sorts of stuff.
Throughout history, people have believed they were eyewitnesses of the god of their culture. Throughout history, people have believed what others believed, that they were eyewitnesses to the god(s) of their culture. Some had mental disorders, others were impacted by hearsay, mass hysteria, and other brain/environmental phenomena.
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Nice try notes,
but five sighs. Fortunately, scripture is self proving, and answers all silly references.
You will wear your arms out before you can put a scratch in the effulgent word of the living God.
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I’m not writing this for your sake, CS. You’ve already established, over the last year, that you’d rather not think critically if it means it could cause you to have doubt about your cultural belief system. People like you keep the pews warm and the coffers full.
But in your defense, I know, from personal experience, that it’s not an easy pill to swallow when you realize you’ve been hornswoggled by the religious hierarchy and your culture. So I understand why some would rather not cross over that boundary.
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Tkx notes, but you will need to strengthen your opposition to unseat God from His power.
Yeah, good luck with that, after all, by His mere word do all things consist.
God said: ‘let there be light.’ And there was light………and (at one time) all His creation was ‘very good.’
You may want to consider how things went sideways, and take note how your complaints are easily answered.
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Why didn’t you respond to my comment, Colorstorm, after all, it was addressed specifically to you? Could it be that you don’t have an intelligible response? Run back and hide, CS, in that little hole you control —
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Scripture is self-deluding.
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Correction: experient, not experiment.
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“while Peter wrote of ‘like precious faith.’ John called it ‘the blessed hope.’ James spoke of the ‘word of truth.’”
Peter:
John:
James:
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“Do you think you may have an attempt at a new convert, to steal a persons faith and leave them hopeless”
Hopeless, CS? “AintNoShrinkingViolet” came on this board in the hope of showing us Atheists how wrong we were, and ended throwing off the religion she’d been shackled with for nearly 40 years – she has more hope now than she ever had, and will be happy to tell you so!
CS mutters, ‘Well, she was clearly never a true Christian in the first place!’)
“And do tell how your weak argument was dismissed completely by a post of yours truly.
(vw, a post coming to address your argument)”
Why don’t you say what you have to say over here, where you can’t delete or edit the comments? For the same reason you DO delete and edit, because you’re a gutless coward and haven’t a leg to stand on, and you know it, so you hide in the only place you can control.
YOU? Dismissing a post of Neuronotes’? Dismiss facts with Biblebabble? Don’t make me laugh, you mental midget.
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I must say, arch, I love your use of the word Biblebabble, is it your creation? 🙂 Mental midget is a little demeaning, but Biblebabble has a great ring to it.
Funny, but I’ve been reading through the book of acts and, I didn’t realise Paul was accused of being a babbler too –
“A group of Epicurean and Stoic philosophers began to debate with him. Some of them asked, “What is this babbler trying to say?” Others remarked, “He seems to be advocating foreign gods.” They said this because Paul was preaching the good news about Jesus and the resurrection. 19 Then they took him and brought him to a meeting of the Areopagus, where they said to him, “May we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting? 20 You are bringing some strange ideas to our ears, and we would like to know what they mean.” 21 (All the Athenians and the foreigners who lived there spent their time doing nothing but talking about and listening to the latest ideas.)” Acts 17:16-21….actually I had to laugh…Areopagus seems not unlike Violet’s lovely blog here in many ways, don’t you think?
Pauls answer to their request that he explain himself is a little bit like what many a christian seems to have tried to explain in this little corner of blog land many times before (but that is of course not at all surprising) –
“22 Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: “People of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. 23 For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: to an unknown god. So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship—and this is what I am going to proclaim to you.
24 “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28 ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’[a] As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’[b]
29 “Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill. 30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”
32 When they heard about the resurrection of the dead, some of them sneered, but others said, “We want to hear you again on this subject.” Acts 17:22-32…
I guess sneering at the christians message isn’t really that new after all!
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“Mental midget is a little demeaning” – If you knew Colorstorm as I’ve come to, you’d know that it’s a bit of a stretch to give him that much credit.
And yes, I made up “Biblebabble” on the fly. Colorstorm tends to fling scripture like monkeys fling poo, and somehow believes that in doing so, he has answered someone’s question. Either that, or as likely, he has no answer and uses the scripture as a smokescreen to cover his escape. He has his own little coven of about a dozen followers, who pat him on the head after each of his posts (it’s what he lives for), and is famous for holding comments in moderation, deleting them entirely, or significantly censoring them by removing parts to which he objects and adding his own little [Editor’s Note].
Speaking of “The Acts of the Apostles,” it was believed that the anonymous author who has come to be known as “Luke,” actually accompanied Paul on his journeys and faithfully recorded everything, thus corroborating Paul’s own testimony. After a lengthy study, done by the Westar Institute, that has come to be called The Acts Seminar, biblical scholars have determined that that isn’t true, that in fact, the author of Acts wrote about 40 years after Paul’s death in 67 AD, using Paul’s own letters as his source material, thereby corroborating nothing.
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Ah ColorStorm, he is one of a kind. rarely have I come across a person who has such a capacity to obfuscate an issue to avoid answering the question. He is no doubt a poet with a lyrical turn of phrase but in a flowery way ends up saying nothing.
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“It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.”
— Macbeth —
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@arch
pete
notes
etc.
Sooooooooooo, I say nothing, am a ripe idiot, yet here you are……………….continually trying to correct someone with no brain who says nothing………………..I’m flattered.
Appears to me the doctor on the couch may have a few concerns of his own for ya………….but as it is, you are merely trying to justify your stubbornness when faced with the inescapable fact and logic of a God above all.
Some people are impressed with the sewage of godlessness, me, not so much.
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What it boils down to, Colorstorm, is that some people can face their mortality, and others can’t bear the thought of it.
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Ah no ms notes, truth is more important than the momentary sadness at the death of jackals……
Pilate asked ‘what is truth……….?’ and received stunning silence in return.
Little did he knew that he was faced with the truth.
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“Pilate asked ‘what is truth……….?’ and received stunning silence in return.” – That could quite well be because the person he was asking (as relayed to us by an anonymous author who would never have been allowed to overhear the conversation), didn’t know the answer – that he was as clueless about most things as you are? At least he didn’t fling scripture and run, you gotta give him that!
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Colorstorm, your truth is unethical, which is one of the main reasons why I left Christianity. It would appear to me that because death anxiety has a grip on you, you’ve chosen to follow an unethical belief system that promises you eternal life.
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Yeah ok notes.
‘Love thy neighbor as thyself’ is purely unethical.
First Corinthians 13 is purely unethical. Yeah, try convincing yourself.
There are no weaknesses in scripture, try as you may.
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That’s just it, Colorstorm. You don’t love your neighbor as yourself, and remember another thing — that is not original to Christianity.
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Well done notes, you have just admitted that all men are lawbreakers…………
But there was One who gave his life………….in true neighborly fashion.
When you run out of objections, God will still be God, His word just as good, and His grace just as adequate.
His well never runs dry. It is eternal……….
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I will gladly break Yahweh’s laws because they are unethical. My mother, putting her own life at risk (suffering and shedding blood) gave me life, and before that a super nova. No matter how you want to slice it and dice it, Colorstorm, you are unethical if you associate yourself with the tribal war god, Yahweh.
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You are awesome notes. Note many people can chastise God with a straight face……………..
Have a great day anyway, and I’ll thank God for my next breath……
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You do that Colorstorm, while thinking about the billions of people you believe are going to the hell your god created for them, and the others throughout history and today who have suffered/suffer enormously on this planet because of your bigoted, unethical beliefs.
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Now that is odd notes; do show the reference where I have cited HELL…………..or maybe you are a careless reader? Or maybe you are attributing something to me without merit….
You may be looking for awhile, but hey, I could be wrong……
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So, you don’t believe in hell?
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Irrelevant at the moment, but it will serve you better to consider how your assumptions are often wrong.
I have extended my stay at Violets anyway.
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No, it’s not irrelevant. Do you or do you not believe in hell? Do you do you not believe that anyone, whose name is not found in the book of life is thrown in the lake of fire? (Revelation 20:15)
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You get style points for persistence notes, but my answer is borrowed………..by someone far wiser…………
‘and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.’
There you have it, and your attempt to put a person on the horns of a dilemma has been quietly dismantled.
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Can you be any more obvious? 😉
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And so he flings scripture and runs – thank you for putting on a good show, I’m sure that Serenity now has a much clearer picture of what I meant by ‘mental midget.’
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Still think its a little demeaning, sorry!
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All I can say, is spend a little time over there and maybe you’ll change your mind – possibly not, as he likely won’t delete your comments as he does mine, and Ark’s and John Zande’s.
https://thenakedtruth2.wordpress.com/2015/09/04/lavender-or-violet
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You can see what moronic views he has as he attributes driving to god. He said gods law was not driving 65 in a 15. Really? Ouch. Not worth the read save yourself the 5 minutes of drivel and ljnacy. Pass on this guy’s read.
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“a ripe idiot” – I’m thinking ‘over-ripe idiot’ might be a bit more accurate.
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The point is ColorStorm that you only selectively answer the objections posed. Then you claim to have dealt with all objections which patently is not the case from the perspective of those who you are interacting with. We then conclude that you fail to address the objections because you are unable to do so.
You claim there is no error in the Bible, but you dismiss with a bit of flowery language issues that are raised, suggesting that they are nothing. They may be nothing to you but they are material to others.
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I understand your concern peter.
However……………..no answer will suffice………….to a mind stayed on godlessness.
If Genesis 1.1 is dismissed…………..then it is pointless to discuss How God can by holy and just to bring forth a nation (Israel) to display his purposes.
It’s all about the Potter.
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The correct literary term, Peter, is Dickhead.
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“And yes, I made up “Biblebabble” on the fly.”
You and many others. Just Google. There are about 16,500 results.
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Well if I never heard of it before I thought of it, it can hardly be called plagiarism!
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Interesting arch, thanks. I’m not new to all the various historical analysis surrounding biblical authorship. I am most impressed with the central themes, the core threads, that run throughout the whole bible – that is the theme of goodness of God and his original creation, it’s subsequent brokenness, and the plan God puts in place to restore everything to its former goodness and glory.
Why God chooses to reveal himself slowly over time through written document and history ( and in creation, people’s testimony and witness) – I don’t know exactly!
Regarding the authorship of Acts – if the author was someone who used Paul’s letters as his source material, I don’t exactly see the problem with that? Are you suggesting the author tampered and tweaked his source? If so, why?
And arch, you didn’t respond to my question – I acknowledge it was awkwardly embedded in the long Act quote (which I genuinely thought might have made you smile) –
….”(All the Athenians and the foreigners who lived there spent their time doing nothing but talking about and listening to the latest ideas.)” Acts 17:16-21…not unlike Violets lovely blog here? 😉
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hi.
i hope not to repeat what most of have said before me.
You say you are most impressed by the core themes of the bible and you list among them goodness of god and so on. Maybe I am a tad biased but if there is any theme that runs across the bible, it is that of death and how bad everything is. In fact, I know of know plan in the bible to set things right that does not include death/ blood unless this is the best means known to your god.
I will not speak for arch, but on the Acts of the Apostles, the little critical commentary I have read upon it is it was likely written by a Pauline sympathizer or to say it better, it is all made up, just like most of the stories. That is if I recall what I recently read on it.
I don’t know how much of the Greek history you have read, but those were interesting times. There are periods when they just talked and when they fought. In the histories, you find a lot of commentary about their philosophizing. I find nothing strange about that comment because it was a centre of learning.
In his lecture entitled skulls, Ingersoll shares a very interesting story. Tell me what you think
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“…on the Acts of the Apostles….” Could I suggest, Mak, that you read the results of The Acts Seminar?
http://www.westarinstitute.org/projects/the-jesus-seminar/seminar-on-the-acts-of-the-apostles/acts-seminar-to-complete-its-work-at-spring-meeting
and,
https://www.westarinstitute.org/projects/the-jesus-seminar/seminar-on-the-acts-of-the-apostles/
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thanks for the links arch.
The author of Supernatural religion was way ahead of the Acts Seminar. When you get time, you should read him, I am sure you will like the book.
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Thanks for filling me in – I didn’t realise that most of you are ex-christians who once had an attachment to the biblical God. I’ll try to keep that in mind.
Question – are you asserting with 100% confidence that religion is a by-product of otherwise normal processes in the brain? Or simply suggesting that it’s possible or likely or something like that?
I know this will probably sound weird to you guys, but when it comes to death, of course no one likes the idea of eternal punishment of some kind, but I also do not like the idea of nothingness. The idea of nothingness, to be honest, freaks me out. Because it leaves me feeling like I’m worthless and life is/was worthless and that idea, to me is depressingly awful. To life (if you’re lucky) for eighty odd years, happily (if you’re lucky) and that’s it – the thought of it is chilling to me. But, that’s just me.
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@Myisleofserenity, I am a bit of an exeption here as I have never been a Christian, nor a believer in any other religions. But I am interrested in human history and that has led me to study religious behaviour in historical record. I hope, that when you were referring to the “rather intimidating” bunch, I shall not appear as such.
I suppose I can see how the idea of nothingness could freak someone out, but that freaking out is more like a byproduct of having first learned, that such a natural state of things could be avoided by some unnatural means – namely religious belief in an afterlife. There was nothing wrong about you before you were born. You were a part of nothingness as you shall most likely be in the future, because nature runs it’s course. I have lost many people whom I loved atheist and religious alike, but they are not completely gone because part of them remains with me and with other people who share memories of them. When those memories are gone, then it will be almost as if they never existed, but it can not hurt them any more. I have to confess, that to me the idea of some of them suffering eternally, because of having false beliefs is vile, in comparrison of to all of us simply siezed to exist. The eternal torment and punishment for thought crimes tops my list of repulsive.
However, I also think that the idea of some people being chosen for an eternal afterlife based on their culturally influenced beliefs is almost equally vile, even if there was no eternal punishment and the un-chosen simply died and stopped existing. To me, as much as I am an outside observer, it is just a nother method of cultural segragation and controll. A powertrip for the demagoues who define what these god entities are supposedly expecting of us humans.
But reality is not defined by what we would want it to be. The existance of any particular god, is not defined, or measured by wether if an old book claims it exists or not, nor by wether we evaluate such a divinity character in the book to be good or evil. Is it? The likelyhood of such entities as the gods in old books – and there are many, as you know – is measured by wether it is even remotely objectively demonstrable that any of these entities actually exists. Correct? But none have been demonstrated on any even remotely objective level. Instead what all of these cultural constructs have in common is a demand for blind faith. Now, what should that tell us?
You have worth, regardless of wether there is an eternal afterlife awaiting for you, or not. You have worth for your loved ones, those who love you even, if you did not love them back, as a member of your society and even in this community for having this discussion. But most of all you do have worth for yourself, do you not? Regardless wether, if you believe in any particular gods, or religious doctrines, or none, do not let anyone rob you of your own sense of worth! But perhaps you should ask yourself, why is it, that this or that cultural phenomenon would have you feel yourself worthless, if you did not take it at face value and buy what it is that is being sold to you? Is it much different from a marketting scheme, where you are meant to feel worhtless, unless you buy the product? You do see such marketting in the modern world around you almost every day, do you not?
Then there is this question of what do you expect the eternal not becoming nothingness is after all? You were you when you were a little child, and you were you when you were a teenager and still you are you, but you are also different from what you used to be, right? What about, after a million billion years of eternity in the afterlife, how different will you be?How about after a trillion million billion years? And though these numbers seem big now, how insignificant they are in comparrison to an eternity? An eternity? What do you expect of such an enormous lifespan? After trillions and trillions of years, what is left of you as you are now and how significant will your memories, that your personality now consists of, seem to the you of then? What shall happen in the eternity that will keep you amused and in good spirits for ever, that you shall not be bored out of your witts? Are you still truly you? And if not, who are you and what happened to you? Did it become nothingness? Has your childhood self become nothingness, as it no longer exists as the same today? That child does no longer exist, now does it?
The entire idea of the eternal life is such an abstract, that it is next to meaningless. The only significant meaning seems to be, that it is a form of wishfull thinking with no evidence at all of any even remotely objective kind to back it up, to awoid accepting the inevitability of death, of wich there is plenty of objective information around us. But one can hold on to such because of complex cultural constructs and traditions built around the very natural fear of death. Even the worm fears death, it however being a very simple animal in comparrison to us humans, does not have the culture to confirm it, that it does not die. Yet, even most of humans who profess a firm belief in an afterlife, often struggle with all manner of hardship here in this one life we can observe we actually have, not to give up on it. Inspite of simply giving up and trusting in the alledgedly (but as of yet unproven) benevolent deity to help, or catch the dying believer.
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“I hope, that when you were referring to the ‘rather intimidating’ bunch, I shall not appear as such.” – Says the man who comes to the discussion wearing chain mail — 😉
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Hahaha, well perhaps, I am merely hiding my typically shy Finnish character behind the metal carapace. Or perhaps, I am not being totally paranoid to fear, that if some religious employer, or a person abowe me in any hierarchy, finds out about my opinions on their percieved god, they might somehow try to retaliate me on behalf of their god, who – let’s face it – seems utterly unable to do so themselves?
To me the medieval armour and weapons are quite removed from any present day form of intimidation. Not to demean the generations of people to whom the men wearing maille have been a very considerable threat and intimidating sight of oppressors. However, would not a present day person be more likely inclined to be humoristically influenced by the sight of a suite of armour, rather than be scared of it?
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You realize, I would hope Rautakyy, after all this time, that you know I’m just kidding. But just between the two of us, you don’t really walk down the street in that, do you?
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Yes, I know you are kidding. 😉 So am I.
Yes, I have walked down the street many a times with my armour on, not the one in the picture, though. Sometimes I do it for fun, but I have also done it as part of my job. A few times me and some of my buddies have sat at the center of a number of medieval towns totally drunk in medieval pubs with our armour on, swords at our sides singing loudly some medieval tunes, or dancing wildly with some beautifull wenches…
Now you know me even better… 😉
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Hi rautakyy, nice to be in dialogue with you – you seem to have another unique perspective.
“The eternal torment and punishment for thought crimes tops my list of repulsive.” – Just briefly, it’s not thought crimes that lead to ultimate separation from God – this is very clear throughout the bible, but just as one example – Joshua is recorded as spelling two things out to the Israelites
1. “But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve…” Joshua 24:15
2. They say we will serve God and “Joshua said to the people ” You are not able to serve the LORD…” Joshua 24:19
Not thought crimes but a choice about where one’s allegiances lie. And, furthermore, God knows all too well that, ultimately, even though we might “choose” him we are ultimately have a divided heart, a heart that always wants to do its own thing and be its own God.
This is where Christianity is different to other religions – it sets the bar unfathomably high but acknowledges the reality that we are slaves to our divided hearts – the heart that wants to serve itself only (as another person helpfully pointed out somewhere in this very long feed! Psalm 14:1-3 “The fool says in his heart “There is no God”….there is no one who does good…all have turned away, all have become corrupt, there is no one who does good, not even one” – the christian God calls it how it is – that we, none of us is perfect by any standard – but the christian God knows we cannot do anything about it, we cannot fix it ourselves – but the christian God solves the problem for us, and reconciles us to Him – for example,
“I will make a covenant of peace with them, it will be an everlasting covenant” Ezekiel 37:26 and “I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh.” Ezekiel 11:19
-the christian God is the only God who says there is a relational problem vertically between creator and humankind and a horizontal problem human to human, a problem that no one can fix. And this christian God claims he has made a way to restore things and mend what was broken….
Therefore, I see no “thought crimes” and am saddened and angered too, with the altogether frequent misrepresentation of God in this way.
With regard to religion as merely a respond to fear of death – it seems like one fairly reasonable reason to ponder religious options, however, I don’t think it’s the only one. I think the problems of suffering, pain etc in life is another reason for faith of some kind.
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“we, none of us is perfect by any standard – but the christian God knows we cannot do anything about it, we cannot fix it ourselves – but the christian God solves the problem for us”
And there’s the problem in a single sentence – you are sick and the christian god has the cure. Now repeat that until you believe it and they have you hooked for life. OR you can admit that you are good, just as you are, and intend trying every day to be a little better.
“…choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve…”
— Joshua 24:15 —
I’m no one’s servant – why should anyone feel the need to serve ANYone?
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Therefore, I would suggest you are ‘serving’ yourself. No one’s servant but your own? I think that’s the point, we all choose who we will serve.
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Truth. It is not your crimes which earn you hell. No if you accept Jesus you could be a adolph Hitler and you WI go to heaven. If you don’t know Jesus ypu could bemother Teresa and go to hell.
Simple as that. Your crimes are auto forgiven if you are chrisrian. You can’t out sin the grace of God is what many Christian pastors have told me.
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@Myisleofserenity, indeed it is always interresting to learn about other perspectives, to issues one finds curious. 🙂
It seems to me, you have less repulsive view on your god than so many other Christians. All religions are different from each other. But it is common in religions to recognize the human failings and frailty. I do not find that at all unique to Christianity. Compare it for example to Buddhism.
From my vantage point, the recognition of human imperfectness is just a superstitious approach towards our evolutionary condition. That is not to say, we are evolving towards some perfect existance, rather that in a natural world and under the laws of nature we can observe, it is perfectly natural, that we are able to imagine a far better version of ourselves.
However, I have limited means to compare the claims about the morals of a god even by different Christians. The Bible is just a nother mythological book. It contains a series of varying stories from a wide range of time and varying cultures. If one studies those cultures (as I have), it soon becomes obvious how each and every one of them influenced the people who told the stories to come to the conclusions they made. Though, those cultures were obviously related to each other, the stories have been told by very different human individuals, in different situations, and as a consequense the book offers some very contradictionary moral advice – most of it being rather tribally moralsitic. Who is to say, the creator god is not a tribal moralist? But if that is the case, should such a god deserve any sort of reverence? – That is if we were ever to have any even remotely objective information of this god actually existing, instead of the, oh so common in all religions, demands for blind faith.
How should one come to the same conclusions about your god as you did? By preferring a just and moral god over an immoral and segregationist one? Both are to be found in the Bible, it seems. Plenty of Christians have come to completely different, but equally sincere views about your god than you did. And many of them did so by reading the alledged revelation by the very same god. Some have been adamant, that this god supports slavery and for most of Christendoms history, the great majority thought this god promoted burning alive people who thought differently about this same god. What sort of god, lets such confusion about morals reign even among the adherents of this god? Was this god unable, or simply unwilling, to tell those people what this god actually wanted from people, or is it far more likelier, that what we are reading is what people who wrote it and during the centuries the book was written, would really, really, have liked this particular god wants?
If a person is sent to an eternal suffering for having been born in a Muslim country and having been indoctrinated to become a Muslim and trying to be a good Muslim and a good person all their lives, then that IS a punishment for a thought crime. Is it not? What would be the point of the entire exercise? Regardless, if she has ever heard of Jesus or not. Then according to the same logic most people who are born and indoctrinated to Christian culture, get a free pass just for their cultural heritage. Correct? But if people are sent to eternal punishment and eternal bliss according to their relative cultural heritages, that is a system put up by a moral monster, is it not? However, if people are saved according to what they do and choose to do, to other people, animals and environment – practical stuff – then what is the point of religions?
Ultimately, these questions are at best academic, as long as there is none what so ever even remotely objective evidence about any gods, or even of super- or otherwise unnatural events. Or is there?
Yes, of course, you are absolutely right, that it would be far too simplistic to assume, that any religion was formed only on the fear of death. I only responded on that issue, because that is what you brought up, when you said: “The idea of nothingness, to be honest, freaks me out. Because it leaves me feeling like I’m worthless and life is/was worthless and that idea, to me is depressingly awful.” And indeed, this is quite common among religious thinking. But is there anything else to it, other than merely wishfull thinking? What ever the case, do not let anyone tell you, you would be worthless regardless wether if you are going to live for ever or not.
I must say, that I find it refreshing to have a conversation with a Christian like you, who has a good and polite conduct. 🙂 As it is so often the case, that when Theists end up in conversations about religion with us atheists, they are already so strongly on the defensive, that their tone is less than savory.
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“…they are already so strongly on the defensive, that their tone is less than savoury.” – call me green or something 🙂 (i only started blogging a year ago and my blog is pretty ordinary, mainly about parenting and gardening and mostly read by my friends)
I am also very gad to have civil conversations with others, I am fascinated and intrigued by other perspectives 🙂
“common in religions to recognize the human failings and frailty.” – agreed but the solution to this is different in christianity than others.
“If a person is sent to an eternal suffering for having been born in a Muslim country and having been indoctrinated to become a Muslim and trying to be a good Muslim and a good person all their lives, then that IS a punishment for a thought crime. Is it not? What would be the point of the entire exercise? Regardless, if she has ever heard of Jesus or not. Then according to the same logic most people who are born and indoctrinated to Christian culture, get a free pass just for their cultural heritage. Correct? ” – No and no. As far I understand, and I think this is clear in the bible, God sees the hearts of humans not cultural upbringing.
“Ultimately, these questions are at best academic, as long as there is none what so ever even remotely objective evidence about any gods, or even of super- or otherwise unnatural events. Or is there?” – I agree, no absolute evidence and “proof”. I myself take the following as corroborative evidence, if you will – nature, the bible (yes, even though it was written by many people, drawing on the cultures of their times – it has a unique storyline holding it all together which I am very interested in), personal experience, and observation of human nature and human kind.
“….But is there anything else to it, other than merely wishfull thinking? What ever the case, do not let anyone tell you, you would be worthless regardless wether if you are going to live for ever or not.” – I have heard it said that yes, perhaps christianity is just wish fulfilment, true wish fulfilment..and thank you for emphasising my inherent worth as a human being 🙂 Very kind of you. I just wonder, if an atheistic agreement is followed to its natural end, how it can be asserted that humans have inherent worth, if the universe is devoid of meaning?
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@Myisleofserenity, yes of course, Christianity has many unique and different takes on issues, just like Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Zoroasterianism, Asatru, Hinduism, Taoism, Shintoism and all the rest of them do. Wether if any particular religiously unique approach resonates with our relative cultural upbringing and heritage is a nother matter, from how much it resonates with reality. Correct?
All religions, including the ones nobody believes in any more, have unique storylines. Have you ever read any others, than your own? I recommend them. They are fascinating. Very few of them have anything at all to do with how nature really works. Christianity among the least likely.
What sort of personal experiences do you have of the supernatural and how did you come to the conclusion, it was indeed supernatural corroborating with your particular religious cultural heritage? To what observations of the human nature and human kind are you referring to? Do you mind telling me? I hope I am not being intrusive?
Reality requires some form of objective analysis before we are warranted to give any truth value to any of these religions. But though they contain some humane wisdom, they are also lacking under any even remotely objective analysis on the more superstitious parts. Even in the world where we are quite aware, that there is no “absolute proof” of anything at all, but that some things are highly more likely than others. What they all come up to, is these obscure sets of myths, that do have bearing on the human condition, because they are human made, but tell us nothing reliable about anything unnatural, such as the alledged divinities. Or do they?
What is very much not unique to any particular religions is the requirement for blind faith in stuff that can not be demonstrated on any even remotely objective level. Right? They all require it. And some of them have come up with more or less unique threats for not taking them at face value… But threats of violence in this life, or the imaginary next one, are quite revealing of the reliability of the stories, and of the gods in such stores, are they not? For some reason such gods have quite often the tribal moralist approach to other people – Yes, even in Christianity, or could anyone be saved from the lakes of fire, exept through Jesus? Even if you do not subscribe to that, it is a major feature of Christianity, just like throughout most of Christendoms history it was a major feature of Christianity to burn alive people who disagreed about Jesus with the church – but only after a confession, that they were wrong about Jesus was beaten and tortured out of them. No gods ever intervened for the victims of this horror, even though the poor sods who engaged in the torturing and burning alive their victims, were acting in good faith… If this god exists, why does it not act like it had a responsibility? Is it not an adult god? Or is it evil?
You wrote: “God sees the hearts of humans not cultural upbringing.” Well, that is all fine and dandy of this god of yours, but if this god does not judge people according to their cultural heritages, then their relative religions are of little, or more likely of no consequense at all. Are they not?
Who told you that the natural end for any atheistic “agreement” would be, that the universe was devoid of meaning? I wonder was that person deliberately trying to lie about the atheistic world view for you, or were they just parroting someone who did? What do you think? Honestly? I just told you you had value that could not be taken from you. Where do you think I think your value comes from?
Meaning is something we give to the universe, the world and each other, not the otherway around. We give meaning to ourselves as we give it to others. We also recieve meaning from each others. Do we not? That is the ultimate moral choise, to give meaning to others. Not too hard, is it? 🙂 Give and recieve, just like in most religions that have a version of the so called “golden rule” in them. But that rule is not something that comes to us from religions, it is a natural state for us social species. A survival method for our evolutionary benefit. A healthy balance between giving value and worth to oneself and others is the most natural thing to a human being and for human wellbeing, because that is where our evolution has led us. So, no the universe could not be devoid of meaning as long as we exist in it. It has meaning to us. To whom else does it have meaning to, than to all of us, it’s inhabitants?
Where do you think your worth comes from? Is it not inherent to you yourself, to your loved ones and all who care about and interact with you? Do you not have an inherent value as a member of your society? Does your society not value the individual? Do not your social connections give value to you? Do you not value yourself? What for do you need a god or an eternal lifespan in the equation to give some extra value for you? Why? How is it, that you have come to not feel valuable enough without such affirmation of imaginary things? So much so, that you wrote: “The idea of nothingness, to be honest, freaks me out. Because it leaves me feeling like I’m worthless and life is/was worthless…”
Again, you have worth! You do, even if there is nothingness awaiting for you after your body stops to function. I have worth, even though some say I am bound to suffer for an eternity and I think I will simply sieze to exist when I die. Do I not have worth either way? 😉
Is the faith in a god entity of your particular religious cultural heritage, a particular religion, or the notion of eternal life in general simply there to snuff out the fear of death? How did that fear become so overt to you, that you need such extra “meaning” to yourself? The most natural surivival mechanism we share with all living things. A false sense of security to patch the inconvinience of the fear of death very few of us are really ever able to escape, but with wich most of us have learned to live and even thrive with?
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“Who told you that the natural end for any atheistic ‘agreement’ would be, that the universe was devoid of meaning? I wonder was that person deliberately trying to lie about the atheistic world view for you, or were they just parroting someone who did?”
I believe, Rautakyy, that it was I, but by the time it filtered down to you, much of the context was missing. I said something much like what you have said above – the original conversation involved cosmic justice, and I said that the universe doesn’t give a rap for us – that the only meaning there is in the universe is that which we give it. I care everytime I hear of a species going extinct, but if the human race went extinct tomorrow, the universe wouldn’t even shrug. Our pets might miss us, but not for long, as they would soon go feral to feed themselves, and we would become just a vague memory, lasting only for their short lifetimes.
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@Archaeopteryx1, but that is totally different. I completely agree with you. But as we give meaning to the universe, so then it has meaning to us and it is not devoid of meaning. How would anyone move from us humans giving meaning to each other, ourselves, and the universe in general, to the universe being devoid of meaning? Why would there need to be an unobservable entity outside the universe to give any meaning to the universe, when indeed we are here?
I am sorry, maybe it is because of the fact, that I have always been an atheist, that I sometimes find it really hard to follow the motions of the religious mind. It is, despite my best efforts to understand, alien culture and mindset to me. It is often like looking at visitors from a nother planet, and I suppose this works the other way around too, exept perhaps for people who have seen the issues from both sides of the fence, regardless to wich conclusion they ultimately made? (That is, famous childrens book author C.S. Lewis and the pan-ultimate nincompoop Lee Strobel on one side and most of atheists living and having ever lived in the world, on the other side.)
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Hey there MIoS!
1. You’re right that perception of the ugly actions of the OT and the misogynistic bits of the NT does change a reaction. Word choice is often a good clue as to outlook, because we associate different ideas with different words. While you cite several factors to take into account, a secular mind like mine might also ask if these factors are relevant.
– If Yahweh doesn’t like killing, why would he kill a man who spilled his seed on the ground instead of impregnating his late brother’s wife?
– The factor about ethnicity can go either way, since Yahweh allowed young children to be taken as slaves.
– That Canaan wasn’t a nice nation might also not be sufficient to justify the acts commanded by Yahweh. They were allegedly wicked, and certainly child sacrifice isn’t a good thing, but is enslaving them any better?
– Yahweh did do worse before Canaan, in that he eradicated the entire human population of the Earth except for Noah and his family.
These counterpoints go to the weight of what is going on, and it’s fair to say that a lot of this exercise weighs on what people are willing to ignore to make their point. From an atheistic point of view, there is recognition that while Yahweh promises love and salvation, he also delivers temporal and everlasting damnation to those that cross him.
2. Confirmation bias isn’t entirely appropriate when talking about the Bible from an atheist perspective. The whole issue is that of reconciling the idea of a loving deity with atrocities that the deity commanded, watched, supported, and condoned. It also involves some backwards ideas in the New Testament (like women not being able to teach men, as a for instance).
Ultimately, the position of some atheists is that there is sufficient reason in the Bible to believe that the offered deity doesn’t fit the description that some Christians give out. Furthermore, the responses to those reasons often don’t excuse the underlying behavior. This isn’t an issue of people being unwilling to believe in the Bible, or people being willfully blind. Rather, these are practical impediments that atheists like myself have to believing in this stuff (again).
For me, it boils down to asking yourself whether you can excuse killing living creatures based on religious belief. It’s a pretty open question, and it has so many little nuances. The answers are profound, because it tells you about your faith on how far you’re willing to go to support it.
Furthermore, I would also say that any limitations you put on that faith are not personal failures but signs of compassion. Regardless of where you believe the answers come from, it’s a good thing to question what you’ve been told.
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Hi Serenity, hope you’re enjoying dealing with all the various responses and hope you’re no longer feeling intimidated. I’m kind of losing track, but I did see you said to someone that you didn’t know how much longer the ‘niceness’ could continue – an astute observation. I’ve seen nice exchanges go pear-shaped on quite a few occasions now but I hope that won’t be the case here.
“You see, perhaps, ethnic cleansing or a god who is irrationally violent or vindictive. But others, evidently do not. Why is that so?”
I think we have to look at the history of human understanding about ourselves and others. When this religion was formed, people viewed foreigners, strangers with a healthy dose of fear and mistrust, and they could read these accounts as completely just. Whole groups of people could obviously be evil and need to be wiped out! But of course, this is where with our greater understanding each other has changed how people view these accounts. In general, we understand that everyone has a story, a history, a culture that contributes to the their behaviour, and we know every group of people is made up of individuals. We have books, TV, the internet and easy access to other countries to travel and find out about our shared humanity. The human sense of morality in this day and age has now surpassed what is presented in the Bible, and there are no excuses.
Have a glance down this list for the numbers that the Bible says were killed by the Christian god:
http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.co.uk/2010/04/drunk-with-blood-gods-killings-in-bible.html
“why does;t God step in and act when people like Pol Pot go on killing sprees?” Because he doesn’t exist.
“we also have to admit we are usually unconsciously falling prey to confirmation bias from time to time – christians more easily find evidence for their positive view, atheists for their negative.”
I’m not sure that’s true. Atheists will readily accept that Jesus preached the Golden Rule and this is a good thing. We would just point out it’s not a difficult conclusion to come to, and it’s clearly not original. Also, I enjoy reading, for example, Proverbs and thinking how some of it relates to situations today, in a similar way to Aesop’s Fables. I will usually only post on the negative things in the Bible, but that doesn’t mean I don’t appreciate the nice ideas – like giving up all your possessions for the poor. Confirmation bias is in action, but it’s not absolute for non-believers, in the way that Christians have to completely avoid facing the reality of the obviously atrocious things in the Bible – but that’s more cognitive dissonance I guess.
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Hi Violet, thanks for your reply. And, unfortunately I still do feel a little intimidated! But that’s probably just me. Like I’ve said, you do have a fairly friendly discussion going on here, and I’m sure thats got a lot to do with you being a great mediator. But these are big issues you’re throwing out here, and I think, as you get to set the scene, put out the challenges etc the christian who is responding is always going to start off on the back foot…any way, it’s all pretty interesting. It’s mostly stuff I’ve thought through over time myself, so, you haven’t made an atheist out of me yet 😉
“The human sense of morality in this day and age has now surpassed what is presented in the Bible, and there are no excuses.” – I don’t agree. I don’t think human morality on the whole, when one looks at all the nations of the world, has progressed or moved on. Some things improve (e.g. slavery is abolished), then they disintegrate (e.g. increase in human trafficking for sex slaves) or as cultures change new moral issues present themselves (e.g. the abuse of new technologies) or old moral issues present in a new form (e.g. child pornography on the internet) – to me it seems as though humanity is somewhat stuck in a revolving door of problems, in spite of great efforts to improve things overall.
But I think you are more specifically saying that the morality of the bible is basically equivalent to that of an uneducated ancient culture – and here it seems as though we may never understand each other….
“Christians have to completely avoid facing the reality of the obviously atrocious things in the Bible” – I am saddened that this is how many people interpret the hard events of the bible. We don’t completely avoid this reality. God explains what he is doing and why. The God of the bible acts because of the terrible things people do to each other, on a large scale (one only needs to think of the deepening crisis in Syria for this point), and on a smaller scale (we may consider ourselves generally moral people, but many a social experiment shows how easy it is for the nasty to come out, and I for one know how badly I sometimes behave towards my children or how quick I am to judge or criticise or nurse a hurt til it turns into bitterness and resentment and anger). Human kind – full of potential and, yet, fraught with problem after problem after problem
There is obvious atrocity, but I don’t think God is the author of it.
For the sake of justice, wrong should be righted. God says he rights our wrongs for us. As you most likely well know, Jesus, who preached the Golden rule, says because of him, we are made right….
“He was despised and rejected by humankind, a man of suffering and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces,
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities…
and the LORD lay on him the iniquity of us all” Isaiah 53:4-6
I just don’t see the same kind of atrocity in the bible that you do – we do seem to be reading different books 🙂
(I’ve seen your next post and will offer a response when I get a chance)
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I am glad you have your faith that works for you. But to say the bible is the only source of morality is totally false. To claim it as the original source is totally wrong.
Christian faith is 2000 years old, Hebrew faith about 5 to 6 thousand. Yet your same commandments you use as morality have been part of my faith for 10 thousand years. 5 times longer than Christian faith, twice as long as Jewish faith and 3 times longer than the oldest known written version of the earliest old testament.
Your book is believe it or not. Not all that original nor is it the original source of morals, goodness or rules for behavior. Nor the concept of heaven. A single god nor anything except some concept of hell introduced when Greeks mistral slated the Torah.
The belief I. A single heavenly god is much much older than jews and chriatans. Morals and the commandments as well equally older.
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“It’s mostly stuff I’ve thought through over time myself, so, you haven’t made an atheist out of me yet” – You may have us confused with Christians – it’s an easy mistake – but we have no compulsion to convert others.
“I don’t think human morality on the whole, when one looks at all the nations of the world, has progressed or moved on.” – Have we reached the homogeneous society of “Star Trek: The Next Generation“? Clearly not. But evolution is not a rapid process, and when you view the atrocities of the past, there is an obvious improvement – the implementation of the United Nations, for example, is an unheard of concept in the history of the world.
“There is obvious atrocity, but I don’t think God is the author of it.” – Does your god have the power to end it?
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“You may have us confused with Christians – it’s an easy mistake – but we have no compulsion to convert others.” – really? I do get an evangelistic vibe from many comments here…
“obvious improvement…” – I’m sorry arch… I can’t agree. I reckon it depends on which country you live in. Syria, North Korea. Many improvement, many new problems arising.
” Does your god have the power to end it?” -yes. but perhaps you are asking, then why doesn’t he do anything?
““I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.”
— Yahweh —
Isaiah 45:7” – also translated as “…I bring prosperity and create disaster…”and a little further on ”
“Does the clay say to the potter,
‘What are you making?’
Does your work say,
‘The potter has no hands’?”
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Oh yes, I’m quite familiar with the clay and the potter – Colorstorm flings it at me at every opportunity.
So are you saying that since your god is all powerful and merciful, he’s on the job, and the situation in Syria is all taken care of? If not, why not?
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Hi there siriusbizinus! I unfortunately don’t have enough time tonight to respond in full, but as I pointed out in my original comment – even us humans do, from time to time, excuse killing in the face of atrocities to try and stop said atrocities from continuing…why do we condemn God who says what he is doing is, at least in part, because of a nations atrocities?
In any case, I think we are right to carefully examine this violence of the biblical God, because, it does cut to the heart of matters, and as Violet originally expressed – leads to very different interpretations of God.
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” because of a nations atrocities?”
and the biblical god would have crushed America long ago for it’s atrocities.
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Sorry I missed this reply! I tend to rely on the WordPress widget thingie too much to see if there have been replies.
You’re right that we do tend to excuse military action to intervene when people are being brutalized by their own country. One critical distinction, though, is that more recent interventions actually have more evidence for and against them than the interventions of Biblical times. For Biblical accounts, all we have is the word of the people committing the violent acts.
So, the difference is that by just using the Bible to justify a deity’s actions, we’re using the word of the people who already support that deity’s existence. Whereas with other military actions, we recognize that it’s people making the decisions, and not some deity.
This makes sense, especially considering the number of times that people have killed others in the name of a faith. Cults, for example, sometimes engage in mass suicides or killings. We don’t try to find ways to justify their beliefs. Similarly, if these actions by Hebrews would have been committed today, they would have been followed by sanctions against them and military action. As a global community, we cannot afford to entertain regimes that claim a deity’s favor enough to kill people for it.
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Yes, I agree. Make me think of this:
“..for he [God] is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and abounding in love, and he relents from sending calamity.” Joel 2:13
or this
“The Lord is slow to anger but great in power; the Lord will not leave the guilty unpunished.” Nahum 1:3
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Ah yes Serenity…………..the one smooth stone of scripture……………brought to you courtesy of the living God: Grace.
Indeed slow to anger, as judgment is His strange work. I am amused how people cursed God in the days of Noah, as he preached righteousness, and while grace was the word of the day, but for a hundred and twenty years heaven was silent…………………
but noooooooooooooo, it is always the fault of God. Yeah right. So again today, heaven is silent, grace is on the table, God is still keeping the stars in place, His word just as good, and man still the perpetual miscreant.
Great scripture truth you bring by the way, and a solid defense. 😉
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“God is still keeping the stars in place” – Actually, Colorstorm, it’s gravitational attraction that holds the stars in place – even then, they are constantly on the move. Our nearest star, Sol, for example, not only revolves around the galaxy every 250 million years, it bobs up and down within its orbital path, not to mention the fact that the entire galaxy of stars is moving toward a playdate with the Andromeda galaxy, so I won’t mention it.
PLEASE read a second book – Ah’m beggin’ ya –!
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On a bit of a tangent Arch. Something that has always puzzled me is that in the Bible, the ‘Promised Land’ is described as a wonderful place flowing with milk and honey. Whilst I have not been to Israel, the description seems odd to me. I mean to say if you had the whole world to choose from, Israel seems far from the best place to live Geographically. I would have suggested that somewhere like New Zealand would have been nicer.
Actually the promised land seems to be a touch on the arid side. Perhaps it looked good in comparison to the surrounding desert, but even say Italy would have been a nicer spot.
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The Bible authors could only write of the world they knew, as opposed to inspired Bible authors, who would have had an all-knowing god to tell them about places like Arruba.
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CS-
I think it’s precious that you’d mention “slow to anger” in the same paragraph as Noah. Nothing screams mercy and love like drowning a world full of plants and animals. I’m curious as to why a deity would drown puppies for the wickedness of one species.
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You have to understand, Sirius, that in the alternate universe where Colorstorm and his acolytes live, things such as cause and effect simply don’t work the same as in the world with which normal people are accustomed.
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It’s always about you now isn’t it. Perhaps you missed where God was patient………….for one hundred and twenty years…………….and tolerated the utter wickedness of the devilish acts of men. But no, sin in your mind is both non existent and irrelevant.
Once more His grace has been lengthened, and same old same old, juust look at the miscreants who mock His very existence and goodness in giving man life and water, and on and on.
His goodness is plain to see if you are interested. Open your eyes to the comments in this thread alone, by they who profess such intellect apart from God. How do you spell depraved.
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Hey CS-
This has nothing to do with me. It has everything to do with trying to excuse the deaths – real and imagined – done in the name of your deity. The message that conveys is simple: faith will override compassion, human distaste for murder, and basic human dignity.
How can you argue that sin is wicked when what you show is a complete willingness to abandon your humanity? That’s the big question here, put to every believer that has read Violet’s post.
Not one has been able to answer the challenge without having to accept that one’s humanity must be suborned to faith. One must give up one’s compassion, good nature, and willingness to sacrifice for the good of all in order to follow a jealous deity along whatever path it decides.
Is that path righteous when it calls for county clerks to do unto others worse than she’d have do unto them? Is it righteous when people who minister for family cohesion use technology to hypocritically abandon the principles they teach? Is it righteous when one goes forth to denounce others as wicked for mocking his deity when he commits the same acts of mockery against them personally?
By all means, CS, I know where I have gone wrong here. My word choice should not have utilized the sarcasm that it did. For that, I do humbly beg your forgiveness.
For the other thoughts that I have expressed here, I make no apology, for I cannot make them more honest and true.
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While I appreciate your attempt to defend an impossible excuse, you will completely fail to understand that it is we, not God who has fallen short.
The ruling on the field stands: Any person who sits in judgment of God is a fool. Over and out.
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“The ruling on the field stands: Any person who sits in judgment of God is a fool.” – I never sit in judgement of your god, any more than I would any other nonexistent being, but I DO sit in judgement of the fools who not only believe he/she/it exists, but refuse to even investigate the possibility that he/she/it doesn’t.
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“My word choice should not have utilized the sarcasm that it did. For that, I do humbly beg your forgiveness.”
If I ever did that, I would be SO busy —
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“Perhaps you missed where God was patient………….for one hundred and twenty years…………….and tolerated the utter wickedness of the devilish acts of men.”
Tell us, CS – precisely who reported this information regarding your god’s patience?
“How do you spell depraved.” – C-O-L-O-R-S-T-O-R-M
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If one accepts what the Archaeologists have concluded then the the patriarchal stories were made up to suit the political circumstances of the period around the 7th and 8th century BC. This presentation by Archaeologist Israel Finkelstein is very illuminating.
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Eventually, when the political climate is right, the Jewish people simply must come forward and acknowledge that Judaism and its foundational tenets, is nothing but a myth like any other and when that day arrives we can begin to dismantle the superstitious nonsense of monotheism.
Can I get an Amen?
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Pingback: Are Brainwashing Techniques in the Bible and Strategically Used in Churches? | Victoria N℮ür☼N☮☂℮ṧ
How should we interpret the following little known but highly significant event in history? The following is a quote form Professor Diarmaid MacCulloch’s History of Christianity:
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This history is news to yours truly
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“How should we interpret the following little known but highly significant event in history?” – In two words, “Shit happens.“
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I would be interested to know how a Christian might interpret it.
What we see is that accidents of history can have profound implications. Much like how the destruction of Jerusalem led to launch of Christianity.
Unfortunately for the world, the aspects of Christianity that influenced Islam and got into their texts were weirder the more apocryphal versions that were stamped out in the west.
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I have information for all Atheist-Agnostic/Americans who read this blog, regarding who the enemy is in the US, and the full extent of their involvement in trying to subvert the Constitution and create the Great American Theocracy.
• Jerry Falwell Ministries/Liberty Council/Liberty University
REVENUE: $639,520,749
Founded by Moral Majority leader Jerry Falwell. Various arms of the empire are now run by his sons, Jonathan and Jerry Jr. Attacks church-state separation. Frequently assails Americans United.
• Christian Broadcasting Network/Regent University
REVENUE: $487,152,666
Founded by TV preacher Pat Robertson. Mixes Christian fundamentalism and far-right politics on a daily television show and regularly attacks America’s public education system, calls for tax aid for private religious schools and insists that, “the Constitution says nothing about the separation of church and state!”
• Focus on the Family
REVENUE: $92,316,686
Large “family” ministry founded by James Dobson. Takes far-fight positions on numerous social issues. Dobson issues personal endorsements of Religious Right political candidates.
• American Center for Law and Justice/Christian Advocates Serving Evangelism
REVENUE: $57,731,904
Far-right legal outfits run by Religious Right attorney Jay Seculow, an ally of TV preacher Pat Robertson. The groups attempt to force fundamentalism into public schools and attack reproductive freedom and LGBT rights.
• Alliance Defending Freedom
REVENUE: $47,687,860
In recent years, the ADF, headed by Ed Meese acolyte Alan Sears, has worked aggressively to overturn a federal law that bars tax-exempt churches and other nonprofits from intervening in partisan elections.
• American Family Association
REVENUE: $17,955,438
Pro-censorship, anti-gay lobby founded by the Rev. Donald Wildmon. A top AFA staffer, Bryan Fischer, says Adolf Hitler invented church-state separation.
• Concerned Women for America
REVENUE: $15,062,805 (INSLUDES AFFILIATE CWA Legislative Action Committee)
Anti-feminist lobby founded by Beverly and Tim LaHaye. Attacks public education, gay people and modern science.
• Family Research Council
REVENUE: $14,255,533 (includes political affiliate FRC Action)
An offshoot of Focus on the Family led by former Louisiana state congressman Tony Perkins. Represents Religious Right views in Washington, D.C. Sponsors annual “Value Voter Summit.”
• Faith and Freedom Coalition
REVENUE: $3,375,131
Launched by former Christian Coalition executive director Ralph Reed. In just a few years of operation it already boasts more than 500,000 members and affiliates in 30 states. The group claims it will spend $25 million this year to lure conservative religious voters to the polls.
• Council for National Policy
REVENUE: $2,169,909
Founded by Religious Right operative Tim LaHaye, the Council for National Policy exists to do just one thing: organize meetings of right-wing operatives, Religious Right Leaders and wealthy business interests to share ideas, plot strategy and vet GOP presidential candidates. Membership is by invitation only, and the group avoids media attention.
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An aspect of the Bible that always puzzled me.
In Genesis we see Sarah the wife of Abraham taken into harems of foreign kings because of her attractiveness. This happened at age 70 and age 90. She must have held her looks well?
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I’ve always thought of that, Peter, as wily old Abraham’s lend-lease deal. Notice how he walked away from it with herds of cattle and camels – which I found especially interesting, as there is evidence that the camel wasn’t domesticated until around 1000 BCE, and Abe et al supposedly lived a thousand years before that – yet more proof that Genesis wasn’t written by Moses in 1350 BCE, as no domestic camels existed then either.
Oh, and the Philistines – of whom Abimelech was king (Gen 20 – second lend-lease deal) were a remnant of a faction of the mysterious “Sea Peoples, who, between 1276-1178 BCE, consistently attacked northern Egypt until they were finally driven out and settled on the coast of what is now Israel, in what was then Philistia. They didn’t exist in the time ascribed to Abraham.
The BS just gets stacked higher and higher in CS’ inerrant bible, and he lacks the courage to even investigate it.
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Yes it does appear that camels did not come the Levant until 930 BC.
The point I have tried to make to CS is to get him to ask himself ‘how do I know the bible is divine’? I never get an adequate answer to that question.
If one cannot answer that question satisfactorily then the Bible has no greater claim to being ‘God’s Word’ than say the Koran or the Book of Mormon. This is why I focus so relentlessly on the integrity of the Bible. If it is divine it should be able to withstand scrutiny.
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Was the sand made for the camel, or the camel for the sand…………………
You are drinking at the wrong well of learning pete, sorry to say. Godlessness has zero answers and a thousand excuses.
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“Was the sand made for the camel, or the camel for the sand…………………”
A question that could only be asked by someone completely oblivious to either archaeology, geology or evolution – first, neither the camel nor the sand were “made.” The sand was a product of an inland sea washing against rocks, and the camel’s footpads where evolved to accommodate travel upon that sand. In fact, Middle-eastern camels and South American llamas had a common ancestor before the continents broke up and began traveling on their tectonic plates.
Go back to school, CS, get an education, and don’t do drugs! Then come back and talk to us grownups.
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Uh huh, and Who made the water?
As I said, full of endless excuses. Stop embarrassing yourself before children who may be reading.
‘In the beginning God……………..’ All other excuses are sinking sand.
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“Uh huh, and Who made the water?”
No one made the water – water naturally occurs when two oxygen atoms combine with one of hydrogen.
BTW – who made your god?
(This is a lot more fun when you can’t delete me, isn’t it CS?)
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Even your friends know you are worthy of deletion……………with your endless profanity……….and toxic insults…………..and your babbling bible perverting irrelevant cut and pasted borrowed stale goods-
Unbelief peddles nothing of value, and you can keep your godlessness which avoids the very origin of life.
Thank you for confirming my premise in violets post here- there is NO other book such as the word of God- it foretold reactions perfectly by folks like you. Go figure.
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“with your endless profanity” – What profanity? Has anybody seen me use profanity?
“Even your friends know you are worthy of deletion……………” – Clearly they don’t delete me – it would seem that the proof is in the pudding —
“and your babbling bible perverting irrelevant cut and pasted borrowed stale goods-” – Aw gee, now you have to wipe the spittle off your keyboard!
“there is NO other book such as the word of God” – If you’re referring to the Bible – and face it, what other book do you know anything about – at no point in the entire book does your god speak a single word. There are those humans who REPORT that he spoke, but your god, whom I must assume is capable of writing, never says anything.
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Uh. Profanity? don’t be so shallow in thinking it is only described by ‘the seven forbidden words……..’
I use the term in its broad sense………..so quoting your example here below, one of many such fine examples of the enlightened godless mind…………
January 27, 2015 at 22:37
“It’s people like ……….. and ColorStorm that keep me believing in post-natal abortion.”
“After all, Christ was said to have a devil, Paul a madman” – both mental issues – it would seem that’s a major prerequisite to becoming religious.”
Yeah – those two are mine – rather proud of them actually. (archaeopteryx1)
As I said, profanity. Your insults to me are nothing. Your insults to Christ are profane.
Perhaps you will tire of embarrassing yourself on this thread………..
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“The point I have tried to make to CS is to get him to ask himself ‘how do I know the bible is divine’? I never get an adequate answer to that question.”
And you never will —
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Here ya go, CS – just for you!
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In case you didn’t notice, VW, “James” had something to say on CW’s “Seriously Lady?” blog post —
Suppose he means you?
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Here let me help. The ‘lady’ was a self inflicting thorn in an all male barber shop, who foolishly demanded her insane request of a haircut be met.
But naturally, you would draw nefarious conclusions. Nice work at attempted sarcasm.
So I guess James meant what he said, and said what he meant. Sorry your ego has once more been deflated.
And violet, step up to the plate and say ‘enough nonsense’ already.
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“So I guess James meant what he said, and said what he meant.” – The problem was, that he wasn’t clear on who he meant, which doesn’t say much for his communication skills.
Did you finally get all your spittle off your keyboard from your last tantrum here? You could really fry that thing you know —
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Big apologies to violetwisp, but this is from the ‘seriously lady’ post.
—– In the never-ending story of women and men wanting to blur the distinctions between themselves, a men’s barber shop owner has agreed to pay a fine of 750 smackers for not cutting a woman’s hair in an all male exclusive shop.——
Yeah, in what reality is James unclear as to WHO the lady is?
Now to draw the convo back to this post of vw, archx1 recent tantrum is a perfect example to choose between truth and doubt, light or darkness.
I challenge anybody with iq above three, to read the post here again, and the comments of the godless, and all others, and convince yourself that atheism offers daylight…………..
How the word ‘sinister’ for a clue………..as proved in arch recent bizarre charge.
Tkx again vw for the post, you have provided a wonderful service.
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Are you aware of how many dots you use in your comments…………………………?
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“Tkx again vw for the post, you have provided a wonderful service.”
I couldn’t agree more. Thanks for stopping by.
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Actually, you’re right, CS (that’s once in a row!) – the quotation I meant to use came from your “Lavender or Violet” post, not that barbershop nonsense you wrote, but so much time has passed, I’ve lost the original quotation I had intended to use. Mea culpa for the mistake – I can’t believe it’s only September, and I’ve already made one —
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I thought it was some odd humour thing that was going over my head. But thanks for bringing it up, I got to read ColorStorms post about women’s hair being more difficult to cut.
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It’s just another thinly-veiled misogynistic rant about women wanting to enter a MAN’S WORLD! (I can’t wait for him to write one about women insisting on urinals in the ladies room so they can pee standing up.) I can’t understand why he and his ilk are so afraid of women. It probably has to do with how often they’ve been laughed at – “That’s IT? That’s all you got? Why don’t you take that little guy home to yo’ momma and come back when it grows up?“
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It’s his subtle way of saying that women need to stay in their place.
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Arch, a lady told me that she dreads using the women’s convenience after a bus load of Chinese tourists have passed by. Apparently they stand on the seats to do their business, it all becomes quite mucky apparently.
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Well, there’s another image I’ll never be able to get out of my head —
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What is this thing about Christians and hair?
Apostole Paul demands, that men should have short hair and women long, as he thinks natural and sets him apart from Jewish tradition rather to lean on his Romano-Hellenic cultural heritage. While the Old Testament laws demand, that men should not cut their hair, or trim their beards… Why did the alledged creator god of all the galaxies and trillions of stars in them suddenly change “his” mind about a fashion statement?
Jesus died so that you could eat shellfish, pork and that you could cut your hair fashionably short as the men of the empire do… Oh, and to set you free from hell, that really did not exist, or you were not really made aware of it, untill he set you free of it, by taking the story about him resurrecting when nobody was looking at face value…
Yeah, that makes all sense, now does it not?
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I really wanted to thank you, rautakyy, for clearing that up.
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One could ask, Why is it that the pharaoh of the Exodus is never named?
Other foreign kings and rulers are named in the Bible. So why is the most significant opposition figure in the most significant Old Testament story in the Bible never named?
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You might note, Peter, that Abraham’s Pharaoh was never named either, nor was Joseph’s, primarily because the 10th and 9th century authors of Genesis and Exodus had no idea who the Egyptian Pharaohs were a thousand years earlier.
Sure, you can Google it, but can you tell me off the top of your head who was the Emperor of Rome a thousand years ago today? You likely haven’t a clue (I know I don’t!) and neither did they – these were hand-me-down stories, with as much validity as the American Paul Bunyon, Pecos Bill and John Henry legends, and I’d bet Australia has some too.
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Wasn’t the Emperor called Bigus Dickus?
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Only on planet Python.
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And of course my place —
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